lazyshaun
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Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:13 am

Hi,
For those of you who listen to the airport tower on their radio's, have you ever heard a really blurry transmission, one that the tower had to ask if they could repeat? I haven't listened on the radio for a long while, but I remember about a year ago, an Aeroflot pilot taken off from Heathrow said something when it was a about 1,000ft, which I couldn't make out, and the tower said:" Aeroflot(whatever number it was), please repeat transmission"
He repeated it, to me not sounding any different than before, and apparently not to the tower, as he asked for the transmission to be repeated again.
Before the transmission was repeated the Aeroflot was passed over to London Centre.
How often does this happen, and have you ever heard the tower ask for the transmission to be repeated numerous times?
I came. I saw. I conquered
 
echster
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:31 am

I've had to do this more than you would think. It's always better to ask a pilot to repeat or "say again" than to guess what they're saying. There are many causes for radio problems, but eventually they get worked out.
 
jtamu97
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:39 am

When I used to listen to Dallas ground, it seemed the Korean Air pilots were the worst. Also, when listening to Houston Approach, Air France, TACA, and Mexicana seem to be at the top of the list.

Later,
J
Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
 
747Loadmaster
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:51 am

Also heard it many, many times the other way, pilots asking ATC to repeat, (Africa and Middle East).
 
trekster
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Jtamu97 (Reply 2):
it seemed the Korean Air pilots were the worst

Just heard one on the JFK site, and could not understand a bleedin word of it
Where does the time go???
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:11 am

Why do they still use radios for these kinds of transmissions?

Is it not possible to get it transmitted by satellite or something so there will be no scrambling?
 
Santhosh
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:34 am

Couple of days ago while monitoring the HF traffic under Mumbai FIR on 10018 kHz, I came overhear a pilot flying a 757. Since it was a nonscheduled flight, that flight was code named something. To be honest I don’t remember the Call sign exactly. I think they where using the aircraft Registration as the Call sign. So as they contacted Mumbai they reported the position, Flight level, Type of aircraft, Destination and the Time estimation of the next way point. I could barely understand his ax cent. And some how the ATC understood what he was telling after repeating it several times. Finally since it was a nonscheduled flight or some private flight. ATC requested for the total number of people on board. The Pilot told a number first which neither me nor the ATC could make out. Then he told 030. Then the pilot repeated the number several times. Each and every time he said it in a different way 303,003,030 etc.. (If any of you have directly heard this conversation you would definitely have lost your patients) And ATC couldn’t make out even after several trials. Finally the Controller lost his patients and asked to spell it if it’s a small number. Then the pilots repeated T H R E E. Just 3 people onboard. Well I was wondering why this idiot couldn’t have told just 3 people at the first time. Just because he told 030 the first time all these confusions started up. ATC was confused if it was just 3 or 30 people onboard.


George
Happy Landings :)
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:59 am

Korean Air and Asiana are sometimes pretty difficult. None of them are able to say Korean Air correctly. It always comes out as Queenair or Kreenair.
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
UN_B732
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:33 am

Air China is definitely the worst violator at JFK.
-Mr. X
What now?
 
christao17
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
Why do they still use radios for these kinds of transmissions?

Is it not possible to get it transmitted by satellite or something so there will be no scrambling?

I recall an article in Air Transport World some time ago talking about this problem (old technology used for air-ground communications) being a significant barrier to increased ATC capacity. It seems that various things are in development but nothing on the near horizon.

Kind of odd that so many things have advanced, technology-wise, and other things really haven't advanced much at all.
Keeping the "civil" in civil aviation...
 
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rg828
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting Jtamu97 (Reply 2):
Korean Air pilots were the worst

I recall listening to a Korean Air depart GRU (when they operated there) once, and the pilot doing R/T spoke flawless Portuguese!

Brazilian ATC struggle with their English sometimes. In BPS once a Tower controller had great difficulty commuincating with a Star Airlines A330 crew.
It was pissing off the Star pilot tremendously, me too.

I felt like running to the control tower and take the mic off his hands!
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
lazyshaun
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:23 am

It must really get anoying for the ATC and other traffic, especially in busy airports. At LHR, with the range of airlines and pilot nationalities, I for one can hardly make any of 'em out!!!
Shamrock would seem easy, but they always seem to talk fast, Alitalia are also fast speaking, and not very clear. Suprisingly LH are quite clear (probably because their the same pilots doing the route day in, day out!!). American and British are always clear enough, with BA pilots always the most well spoken. I would guess Asian pilots are the worst, not always because of their accent, but not being clear. Other Eastern European and Middle East don't seem to be to much of a problem.
I came. I saw. I conquered
 
DCrawley
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:46 am

When I used to fly at MWH, you'd always hear the JL pilots trying to communicate with the tower and even after listening to it for a year, I still could barely understand them! They would call the tower and tower would just spit directions at them because some of the guys up there had been listening to them for 15 years! Incredible.. but sometimes dangerous when there's a 744 flying 1000 feet to your right while you're coming in to land and you don't know where they are until tower spits it out.. lol..

My thoughts once again,

-D.K. Crawley
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
SLCSkyCaptain
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:10 am

This is completely normal. One thing that is happening to you guys is the loss of quality between actual radio transmissions and the stuff you are hearing on the internet or a handheld transmitter. The Comms in aircraft are very clear. I am certain the ATC guys have even better quality stuff.

As far as guys who speak Chinese or Russian, well, I haven't heard any yet. My guess is these ATC guys have been doing this for years. ATC guys are as good at hearing transmissions as we pilot guys are at flying the birds. They are very professional at what they do.

The english language is said to be one of the most complex. Well, ATC is language is very simple. There are simple things like altitude, direction, clearences and other things. The everyday chit-chat has no place on the radios.

Take it easy guys!
 
hawaijahaz
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:31 am

I was flying from NRT to SFO ( or SIN to NRT..I forget) in January on UA. I was in a quasi sleeping state with the headphones around my head and tuned to Ch 9. Suddenly, I wake up to a pilot asking the Japanese ATC permission to perform an emergency landing at an airforce base. The permission was granted. However, the pilot then asked if he could dump fuel to lighten up the plane. The Japanese ATC had the hardest time understanding this. It took the pilot about 3 minutes and atleast 15 tries to get the message across. He started of by saying something like 'We'd like permission to dump fuel to reduce our weight before we land.' In the end all he said was 'FUEL DUMP NOW!!'. The ATC guy finally got it. Unfortunately we got handed off to another ATC right then and I couldn't follow the events.

I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. I wanted to shout and tell the ATC guy myself.

Made me wonder what would have happened if it had been a more critical situation.
 
Celticmanx
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:51 am

Imagine if worldwide ATC's transmissions were spoken in Korean or Mandarin. Probably our Seoul-born fellows would say that the worst in the list is leaded by American Airlines, follow by BA and Delta not too far away from the top. And the best and most clear R/T would go for Asiana, Korean Air, JAL, Air China, etc...
Please guys, don't be too narrow minded and think about it. Perhaps it is not easy for them to talk on the radios. So be patient and cooperative to them.

Manx
 
Carpethead
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:46 pm

Hawaijahaz,
That's because Japanese ATC has very little competence in English outside normal ATC conversations.
I was on a UA flight into NRT a few years ago, and it took a few tries before the ATC controller got the meaning of "medical emergency." I don't know how many times the controller asked if it was a fuel emergency.

Yes, Japanese and Korean pilots are terrible. Listening to UA Ch.9 in Russian airspace is weird too. It is sometimes hard to hear what they are saying too.
 
flymia
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:18 pm

Quoting Celticmanx (Reply 15):
Please guys, don't be too narrow minded and think about it. Perhaps it is not easy for them to talk on the radios. So be patient and cooperative to them.

Yes true it must be hard for them to learn English and speak it but that is just something they have to do to become a pilot. They should work on it. If they have problems on the radio a lot than they should practice more. Its not that we are being narrow minded but all pilots need to speak English well enough that it is understandable over the radio. Its a matter of safety.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:20 pm

Sometimes they talk way to fast for anyone to comprehend, for some reason, they seem either hurried or to busy to even talk....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting Santhosh (Reply 6):
Couple of days ago while monitoring the HF traffic under Mumbai FIR on 10018 kHz, I came overhear a pilot flying a 757.

probably Ethiopean B752PF Freighter.
What was the time.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
lorm
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:51 pm

A LOT of Japanese do flight training here in Honolulu flying out of HNL and HJR and sometimes it can get interesting. We have so many races here in Hawaii with so many dialects, that I think the controllers here do quite well because of it.

Some of the Japanese do quite well speaking in English, but sometimes ATC will flat out ask for "someone who can speak" to work the radio. Helicopter 5ND's radio for the past few months has been consistantly been operated by a Japanese gentleman with a heavy accent. A lot of them can get by well, the ATC here is pretty patient since they deal with a lot.

Oh yeah, listen to live Honolulu ATC at www.liveatc.net Just scroll down.  Smile
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SEAPlane10
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:56 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 17):
Yes true it must be hard for them to learn English and speak it but that is just something they have to do to become a pilot. They should work on it. If they have problems on the radio a lot than they should practice more. Its not that we are being narrow minded but all pilots need to speak English well enough that it is understandable over the radio. Its a matter of safety.

I agree.

It's just developed that English is the preferred language for aviation.

No one is expecting literary fluency, rather just an ability to enunciate and articulate air traffic control jargon!

Also, on a side note, it would seem that English would be one of the easiest languages in the world to learn...look at the grammar vis-a-vis German, let alone Russian or Japanese!!

Regards
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 21):
Also, on a side note, it would seem that English would be one of the easiest languages in the world to learn...look at the grammar vis-a-vis German, let alone Russian or Japanese!!

It's a little naive to presume that your spoken language is the easiest to learn. Try stating your statement to the French, or the Japanese and see how easy it is for them. By the way most foreign people that I have talked to agree that English seems like the most confusing language to learn.
 
KAUSpilot
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:47 pm

English is supposedly one of the easisest languages to speak, but one of the most difficult to read, write, and spell correctly.

I must say I have been pleasantly surprised by the controllers I have encountered in Mexico. Although they are sometimes hard to understand, I can usually make out what they're saying with no more than one "say again".
 
soaringadi
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:05 pm

We should always give international pilots the benefit of doubt. Its not that they don't know english or something.... As a matter of fact, I have heard that many Asian airlines only pick the creme-de-la-creme students as their pilots, so its not about the command of english language.

The thing is that their accent is the one that messes everything up. But the Japanese, or German (just picking random countries.... dont mean to offend anyone) pilots or atc can say the same thing that they cant understand a word that an American or a British pilot says..... so it no ones fault really, and no one is to blame here.

however I know a couple of people who just speak too softly, and need to learn that they need to annunciate.
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
Toulouse
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:29 pm

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 23):
English is supposedly one of the easisest languages to speak, but one of the most difficult to read, write, and spell correctly.

I can assure you English is in NO way an easy language to speak. And I do totally agree with you that it is very difficult to read, write and spell... even for many of us native speakers. It is not at all phonetical, i.e. we certainly don't pronounce what we read (I remember once a Spaniard (my father-in-law) telling me over a meal he would like to learn English, so he suggested we started with some items in situ (on the table), so he picks up a "knife" and says how to you say this in English, I respond KNIFE, he repeats it quite well then asks how to you spell it, I begin K... and he says stop!! What's that 'K' doing there? That was the end of his English learning!

While our grammar (should I say, verbs) may be much easier than many other languages, but that's about where it ends. Look at phrasal verbs, they totally baffle Spanish speakers. Our perfect tenses (present, past etc. perfect) is a continuous struggle for French speakers. After that, English is an extremely unstructured language, there is no specific authority controlling the language and its evolution (unlile for example the Royal Academy of Spanish, or French).

I have witnessed firsthand the huge efforts many foreigners have had to make to learn English.

Possible it is true to say English is easy to speak, but that's because many of us natives speak it how we like. Grammar and spelling even differs between different English speaking nations (ex. 'gotten' in America which is simply 'got' in GB and Ireland). So since there is so little control over the language, maybe it's easy to speak, but I believe it is very difficult to speak 'correctly'.

Sorry for the rant... I'm a translator! But my sympathy goes to all the air crews and ATC who are forced to speak English... be patient with them, it's them who are at a 'major' disadvantage. Yet, I'm not saying I disagree with English being the language used in these situations. It is the most widely learned langauge inthe world and certainly the language of international communications.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
cornish
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:48 pm

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 21):
Also, on a side note, it would seem that English would be one of the easiest languages in the world to learn...look at the grammar vis-a-vis German, let alone Russian or Japanese!!

As an ex-English teacher (and somebody who has learned German and Hungarian) I would dispute that.

I would say that English is one of the easiest languages in the world to speak a few basic words of, or to speak badly. Simply because people get so much exposure to it around the world. People can come to English speaking countries and quickly pick up enough basics to help them live and possibly work there.

However English grammar is a different story - in particular due to the huge number of irregularities in the grammar, and also the fact that we don't pronounce so many of our words in a standard way phonetically - look at the number of ways we pronounce "-ough" for example.

While to me German grammar seemed relatively hard when I ws learning, mainly due to the fact that we don't really get taught English grammar in schools these days, I know of other nationalities who found it much easier - simply because it is so clearly structured - the irregularities (while there) are much less.

Hungarian is another matter however......

So I have huge respect for people who have to use a foreign language every day for their jobs.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:40 pm

I know that English is the most commonly spoken language worldwide (by the highest number of countries), so that is obviously the main reason why it became ATC language (or one of several ICAO-approved languages).

But that aside, what would be the best characteristics for an ATC language?

- Strict yet simple grammar (so no Russian, too complicated with declensions, aspect etc. no Finnish or Hungarian either). Bahasa would be good, although I must say I'm not an expert here.

- Being phonetic, what you write is what you hear (so no English). No tonal language (so no Sino-Tibetan languages). Finnish would be ideal here, I think.

- Not too much intrinsic redundancies (some Mediterranean languages tend to encourage wordiness in my experience, although I'm aware this is debatable)

- Easy to write (so no Chinese alphabet - Latin alphabet is most common)

To sum it up, it would have to be a language written in Latin alphabet, with no declensions, no difficult verbs, preferrably no noun genders or articles, non-tonal, phonetic and straight-to-the-point. Any suggestions?
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Santhosh
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
probably Ethiopean B752PF Freighter.
What was the time.

You must be correct MEL.

George
Happy Landings :)
 
AirRyan
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:50 pm

I used to man the UNICOM at a Central Texas Airport and I heard far too often Spanish spoken between "some" pilots, seemingly ignornant of the English only protocol the entire World has agreed upon.

But then again, Spanish is seemingly become the language of choice for the pompusly arrogant (or is that ignorant) here in the United States as for some reason with all the immigrants from foreign speaking lands that have made the United States their home, the Spanish speaking population seem to think that they don't need to learn English and everyone needs to conform to their language.
 
kl911
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Christao17 (Reply 9):
Kind of odd that so many things have advanced, technology-wise, and other things really haven't advanced much at all.

Same for computers,look at your floppydrive. A computer doesn't go faster then it's slowest component....

KL911
 
carmenlu15
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:04 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 25):
I can assure you English is in NO way an easy language to speak.

Totally agree with that. I consider my English to be almost at a native level, but it has taken me 18 years (and counting)! No definite structure, too much irregularities, a non-phonetical pronounciation... I consider my spelling to be excellent, and my pronounciation to be quite good (though it still needs some work); however, I usually have a hard time explaining my young sister why are words spelled and pronounced the way they are.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 25):
Sorry for the rant... I'm a translator!

Apologies accepted. I'm a translator too!  Smile

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 21):
look at the grammar vis-a-vis German

I didn't find German to be that difficult, both in phonetics and grammar. True, structure is more complex, but it's well defined. And one sound is represented by one, and only one, letter (or letter combination). Now if only I could learn all the vocabulary...  Sad

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 27):
To sum it up, it would have to be a language written in Latin alphabet, with no declensions, no difficult verbs, preferrably no noun genders or articles, non-tonal, phonetic and straight-to-the-point. Any suggestions?

In that case, I guess we would have to create a new one Big grin

Saludos
Don't expect to see me around that much (if at all) -- the contact link should still work, though.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting Carmenlu15 (Reply 31):
I didn't find German to be that difficult, both in phonetics and grammar. True, structure is more complex, but it's well defined. And one sound is represented by one, and only one, letter (or letter combination). Now if only I could learn all the vocabulary...

German is part of the Teutonic language structure, that of which English stems from as well. On the other side, the Latin based languages (Spanish, French, and Italian) are directly opposite, and the least similiar to English.
 
fly707
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:26 am

Also there are American & British pilots that you can't understand their accent & you can hear them saying ( say again ) no problem in that .
Without mistakes we will never learn
 
flymia
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:17 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 29):
heard far too often Spanish spoken between "some" pilots, seemingly ignorant of the English only protocol the entire World has agreed upo

That is true. But I really dont know if its completely wrong. Maybe in an English Speaking country. But I was listening to Bogota TWR on the internet and they were talking pure Spanish. But than a CO jet came on and the TWR told CO somewhat good instructions in English and than went back to Spanish with some other local traffic.
Should this be allowed I really dont know?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 22):
It's a little naive to presume that your spoken language is the easiest to learn.

I don't think naivete would apply in this case; my presumption is based on quite a bit of interaction with those whose first language is not English.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 26):
I would say that English is one of the easiest languages in the world to speak a few basic words of, or to speak badly. Simply because people get so much exposure to it around the world. People can come to English speaking countries and quickly pick up enough basics to help them live and possibly work there.

Very persuasive comment...I'll keep this one in mind.

Thanks to everyone for the interesting comments.  Smile

Regards
 
sprout5199
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
Why do they still use radios for these kinds of transmissions?

Is it not possible to get it transmitted by satellite or something so there will be no scrambling?



Quoting Christao17 (Reply 9):
I recall an article in Air Transport World some time ago talking about this problem (old technology used for air-ground communications) being a significant barrier to increased ATC capacity. It seems that various things are in development but nothing on the near horizon.

As a Electronic(radio)Technician I can explain why we still use the AM radio system. If two people talk at the same time on AM then you get the combined signal at the receiver and can tell when somebody is "stepped on". If you were to switch to FM,PM,Digital or any other type of modulation the strongest signal wins, so ATC would never know that someone else was trying to talk. I know this sounds like a small thing but just listen to any ATC and see how many times two people talk at the same time. Knowing someone else wants to talk is a big safety feature.

Also the cost of replacing every radio used in aviation would be outrageous

Dan in Jupiter
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:22 am

AirRyan, I wouldn't say that the Teutonic (Germanic) languages are directly opposite from the Latin based languages. During the Roman invasions of Gaul there is a large amount of intermingling among the proto-German language; so there are some very interesting similarities between Latin and German. Now, as for English, it is a bit misleading to position the language in the Germanic line. So many words and gramattical structures entered our language via French during the Medieval period (for instance all of our questions words descend from Latin via French...like qui to who). If you were to say any two languages were opposites on the Indo-European tree, I would have to go with Sanskrit and English. Sorry about the rant, this is just about the only thing that we Classics majors are useful for ; )
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:25 am

The only langauge I have heard ATC in is English, French and Spanish. Pilots flying into YUL speak French to ATC if they can (ex. AF,AC,QK,Air Creebec, Air St. Pierre). They speak so fast I cannot even make out of the stuff, even with my french knowledge (not fluent yet).

As a question, does anyone use Spanish when talking to ATC in LAX or in California?
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
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RobK
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:08 pm

From decades of listening to North Atlantic HF, I'd say that the Irish radio operators at Ballygireen in Ireland must be the most confusing ground 'station' for foreign aircraft over the Pond.

Instead of saying:

'You are very weak - strength 1, go ahead slowly', you get this instead (thick Irish accent) :

'You're strength a half, go ahead but HIT IT HARD, HIT IT HARD!'

I kid you not!!  bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 

I have to say I felt sorry for the crew of the Antonov Design Bureaux AN124 which this was said to, closely followed by a lonnnnnnnnng silence .........

Cheers,

Rob K  Wink
 
irishmd11
Posts: 80
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RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:23 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 34):
I was listening to Bogota TWR on the internet

Hmmm, interesting...

Could you possibly supply me with the website address?

Cheers mate!

Gerry
ATR 72,Avro 85,BAC 1-11,Concorde,Trident,BAE146,BN Islander,707,727,737,741,743,744757,767,772,773,DC-9,DC-10,MD-11,MD-8
 
mandala499
Posts: 6460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:48 pm

"Bahasa would be good, although I must say I'm not an expert here."
Well sure, there ain't any grammer... and pronounce the words as they are spelt (like Latin-ish)...

"seemingly ignornant of the English only protocol the entire World has agreed upon"
Not under ICAO rules it ain't! English, French, Spanish, Russian, and what's the other one?

Now, hearing how fast those ATCs at some of the US airports/Centers makes me wonder how would I understand if I fly over the US as a pilot... And then you get the extremely slow ATCs and pilots at some of our airspace that would make some wonder how they ended up there...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:39 pm

Quoting Jtamu97 (Reply 2):
When I used to listen to Dallas ground, it seemed the Korean Air pilots were the worst

Well I go spotting at YVR about 2-3 times a week and I find no problem with KE pilots. In fact, I always hear one of the pilots being Korean, and then the other pilot being Caucasian. The Korean pilot usually takes the ground as soon as the 777-200ER is airborne, the pilot switches to Caucasian.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
Air China is definitely the worst violator at JFK

Two thumbs up for that. They (along with MU) are the worst violaters at YVR. Their call sign is "China niner niner two," and they always identify themselves as "Air China niner niner niner two," (I guess the one extra niner is essential.)

I can't say JL is any better. Last week when they were coming in, tower advised him to keep company in sight and he was number 2 following a 767 traffic.

Right after tower said that, the pilot said: "Japan Air 18; confirmed cleared to land 26R?".
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
flykal
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:20 pm

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:22 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 42):
Well I go spotting at YVR about 2-3 times a week and I find no problem with KE pilots. In fact, I always hear one of the pilots being Korean, and then the other pilot being Caucasian. The Korean pilot usually takes the ground as soon as the 777-200ER is airborne, the pilot switches to Caucasian.

Ktachiya, as much as I hate to disagree with people, this is in fact far from the truth. Many years back our flights were scheduled into Canada with a foreign pilot, but that policy has long gone. Flights into YVR, or any other port for that matter, are scheduled "as is". No policy as such applies.

---

And for the rest of the group, at an ICAO meeting in Montreal last September regarding the implementation of English testing for all pilots from 2008, the forum clearly agreed that some of the worst offenders are native speakers because they do not use standard phraseology.

Let me give you an example....

Last year, one of our aircraft was taxing at DFW, when the ground controller issued the instruction "pull-up before next intersection". Now, let me tell you, to the average Korean who has learned English to an acceptable level, including a full range of "Aviation English" and ATC phraseology from both ICAO and the FAA, the expression "pull up" does not exist anywhere in the vocabulary. The Captain and F/O looked over at me in the jumpseat and I was able to "translate" from sloppy colloquial English to acceptable phraseology. The ICAO phraseology being "STOP", the US FAA equivalent being "HOLD". All pilots know STOP and HOLD, so the controller could have alleviated any confusion by using the correct terminology in the first place.

So, I'm not making excuses for certain pilots having poor English skills, I'm simply stating the point that native speakers (including us native speaking crew, and ATC controllers) need to make a concerted effort to use standard phraseology as much as possible. Pilots know standard phraseology - that's why it was developed.

Next time you're listening to ATC from the US or any other major airport, pull out a copy of the ICAO/FAA standard phraseology chart and see how much applies to the transmission. It'll probably be close to around 70%. That means 30% of the time, it's a guessing game for non native English speakers.
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:16 pm

I know a tale from the "mid cold war times" coming my father, when he was
flying around at Grimbergen airfield near Brussels with cessna's that one time a russian cargo aircraft penetrated the small airfields controlled airspace after doing a go-around from EBBR/BRU and declared in very not understandeble comments to attempt a landing at Grimbergen, when it approached the airfield it saw just in time that grimbergen was only a grass runway, way too short off course and pulled back up!
It also happened quite a lot that russian aircrafts had communcation errors while flying direct to the US/Belgian air base of Kleine Brogel and attempted to overfly it before F-16's guided them away!

I don't remember these things happening today...so LOL!
What time is top of descent?
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9394
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 36):
As a Electronic(radio)Technician I can explain why we still use the AM radio system. If two people talk at the same time on AM then you get the combined signal at the receiver and can tell when somebody is "stepped on". If you were to switch to FM,PM,Digital or any other type of modulation the strongest signal wins, so ATC would never know that someone else was trying to talk. I know this sounds like a small thing but just listen to any ATC and see how many times two people talk at the same time. Knowing someone else wants to talk is a big safety feature.

Also the cost of replacing every radio used in aviation would be outrageous

Okay thankyou for the interesting comment, but if you are able transmit a signal to a satellite and back to earth, dont you think there will also be a solution to the problem you are talking about?
 
jush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:10 am

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting Lazyshaun (Reply 11):
LH are quite clear

No that's because the german accent in english is very strong but very easy to understand usually.

Cheers
Matt
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
Douglas7Seas
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:00 pm

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:00 pm

I flew from SEA to LAX on United recently and listened to atc talking with the pilot of a heavy aircraft identifed as "Cargo King". Over a period of 30 minutes the atc guys had to repeatedly direct the pilot to repeat his transmissions. The gentleman's accent made his communication very difficult to understand.

Anyone know what airline is identified as "Cargo King"?

Thanks,

John
Be different; Be nice.
 
SEAPlane10
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:38 am

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:47 pm

Quoting Jush (Reply 46):
No that's because the german accent in english is very strong but very easy to understand usually.

I would agree....rarely have I ever had any problems understanding a German, regardless of the thickness of the accent.

Mir sind die meisten Deutschen ganz verstaendlich!  Wink

Regards
 
flykal
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:20 pm

RE: Pilots Who Don't Speak Clearly

Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:52 pm

Quoting Douglas7Seas (Reply 47):
Anyone know what airline is identified as "Cargo King"?

If I remember correctly, Cargo King is "China Cargo Airlines" which belongs to the China Eastern Airlines group.

Cheers
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time

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