PanAm747
Topic Author
Posts: 4713
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Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:05 am

Okay, perhaps it's a silly question, but here goes:

About a month ago, I helped a teacher at my school plan her trip on Delta SAN-ATH, via CVG and JFK (she is a Delta Premiere member). It was kind of fun showing her how the internet timetables work, and I helped her with flight schedules for internal Greece travel (Athens-Channia-Thessaloniki-Athens) on Olympic Airways.

Here's the question - with so many Delta flights from JFK to Europe, why is there not more of a concentration of domestic flights to/from JFK to connect? Yes, I realize that B6 has developed a significant hub there, and that Song is focusing on competing with that, but does Delta rely heavily on O&D passengers out of NYC as justification for keeping that many flights at JFK instead of CVG or ATL?
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padcrasher
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:20 am

Right.

LGA and EWR are better situated to handle the domestic demand for NYC travel. So many of domestic routes would not work from JFK especially those to smaller sized markets.

But the more apt term for Delta's operation there is "gateway". They rely on local NYC demand to fill International flights and have feeder flights from many destinations to help out. But they don't really get into domestic connecting service.

One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business. Even CO as big as they are does not connect many domestic passengers in EWR.
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
with so many Delta flights from JFK to Europe, why is there not more of a concentration of domestic flights to/from JFK to connect?

Well JFK is more of international flights and then connecting them to their hubs and some other focus cities. Song is building up so I guess there is no need for DL to build up there to. As Song gets bigger at JFK, then DL will be International and flights to hubs. Not much else, probably a while away though.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
LGAtoIND
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:37 am

There are many connections possible at JFK on DL. I know that Comair has numerous flights to many smaller cities to connect with DL's International bank at JFK. IND, CVG, RDU, PHL, STL, PIT, are just some examples.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
LGA and EWR are better situated to handle the domestic demand for NYC travel. So many of domestic routes would not work from JFK especially those to smaller sized markets.

This really isn't true as evidenced by B6. LGA has a limited number of domestic cities that can be served due to the 1500nm perimeter rule. EWR is in NEW JERSEY...nuff said. But New York isn't really in the best location geographically to connect passengers on domestic flights. To answer the original question, I think DL just screwed the pooch on building up JFK and didn't do so until its territory was threatened/stolen by B6.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
luv2fly
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:59 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business. Even CO as big as they are does not connect many domestic passengers in EWR.

Your kidding right?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business. Even CO as big as they are does not connect many domestic passengers in EWR.

Your kidding right?

I know, are you kidding, do you live in NY????? It is pretty big hub if you ask me, hint hundreds of flight to everywhere and the ads on every street in Manhattan.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
padcrasher
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:44 am

It doesn't have anything to do with the size of CO's operation. It's big. But the domestic business to/from EWR primarily O&D, not connecting. So in that respect it's not a connecting hub. Internationally you could look at as a gateway. Not that calling it a hub is wrong. The do connect domestic passengers.
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:02 am

Right, but it is more than that. It isn't so much connecting, it is big on connecting but alot of it is O&D.

In other words to all the people in NYC and lots at CO it is a hub but to the rest it is a gateway. So you are right. But it is both.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business

Huh?  confused 

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
In other words to all the people in NYC and lots at CO it is a hub but to the rest it is a gateway.

It's a major domicile of theirs that uses CO Express to connect passengers to mainline flights. That's a good start for calling it a hub.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:03 am

Just for background information, here are the 419 flights leaving EWR tommorrow for other destinations, plus the three bus "flights" for ABE:

ABE: 3x BUS
ACK: 2x ERJ
ALB: 3x ERJ, 1x ER3
AMS: 1x 764, 1x 762
ARN: 1x 752
ATL: 2x 733, 7x 735
AUA: 1x 752
AUS: 2x 735
AVL: 2x ERJ
BDA: 1x 738, 2x 73G
BDL: 4x ERJ
BFS: 1x 752
BGR: 3x ERJ
BHM: 2x ERJ
BHX: 2x 752
BNA: 4x ERJ
BOG: 1x 73G
BOS: 1x 733, 10x 735, 1x ERJ
BQN: 1x 738
BRS: 1x 752
BRU: 1x 764
BTV: 4x ERJ
BUF: 1x 738, 5x ERJ
BWI: 4x ERJ
CAE: 1x ERJ, 1x ER3
CDG: 1x 777, 1x 762
CHS: 3x ERJ
CLE: 1x 752, 2x 739, 1x 738, 1x 733, 1x 735
CLT: 7x ERJ
CMH: 2x 735, 4x ERJ
CUN: 1x 752, 1x 733
CVG: 4x ERJ, 1x ER3
DAB: 2x ERJ
DAY: 3x ERJ
DCA: 7x 735, 1x ERJ
DEN: 2x 738, 1x 73G, 1x 735
DFW: 5x 735
DTW: 1x 735, 5x ERJ
DUB: 1x 764
EDI: 2x 752
FCO: 1x 764
FLL: 4x 752, 1x 738, 1x 733
FPO: 1x ERJ
FRA: 1x 777
GLA: 1x 752
GRR: 2x ERJ
GRU: 1x 762
GSO: 5x ERJ
GSP: 3x ERJ
GVA: 1x 762
GYE: 1x 738
HAM: 1x 752
HKG: 1x 777
HNL: 1x 764
HSV: 1x ERJ
IAD: 8x ERJ
IAH: 2x 762, 2x 752, 1x 739, 2x 73G, 4x 735
IND: 1x 752, 1x 735, 3x ERJ
JAX: 2x 735, 2x ERJ
LAS: 2x 753, 2x 752, 1x 739, 1x 738
LAX: 1x 753, 3x 752, 1x 738, 1x 73G
LEX: 1x ERJ
LGW: 2x 777, 1x 752
LIM: 1x 752
LIS: 1x 752
LIT: 2x ERJ
MAD: 1x 777
MAN: 1x 762, 1x 752
MBJ: 1x 733
MCI: 4x ERJ
MCO: 1x 753, 5x 752, 2x 739
MDW: 3x 735
MEM: 2x ERJ, 1x ER3
MEX: 2x 73G
MHT: 1x 735, 3x ERJ
MIA: 1x 738, 3x 73G, 1x 733
MKE: 4x ERJ
MSN: 1x ERJ
MSP: 2x 735, 4x ERJ
MSY: 3x 735
MXP: 1x 762
MYR: 1x 735
NAS: 1x 733
NRT: 1x 777
OKC: 2x ERJ
OMA: 3x ERJ
ORD: 9x 735
ORF: 6x ERJ
OSL: 1x 752
PBI: 4x 738
PDX: 1x 752, 1x 73G
PEK: 1x 777
PHL: 2x ERJ
PHX: 4x 738
PIT: 7x ERJ
POP: 1x 738
POS: 1x 73G
PTY: 1x 738
PVD: 1x 738, 4x ERJ
PWM: 4x ERJ
RDU: 1x 735, 7x ERJ
RIC: 5x ERJ
ROC: 5x ERJ
RSW: 1x 738, 1x 733
SAN: 3x 738
SAT: 1x 733, 1x 735
SAV: 3x ERJ
SDF: 2x ERJ, 1x ER3
SDQ: 1x 753
SEA: 2x 752, 2x 738
SFO: 1x 752, 5x 738
SJC: 1x 73G
SJO: 1x 738
SJU: 1x 752, 2x 738, 1x 73G
SLC: 1x 73G
SNA: 3x 73G
SNN: 1x 752
SRQ: 1x ERJ
STI: 1x 738
STL: 1x 73G, 5x ERJ
STT: 1x 73G
SXM: 1x 73G
SYR: 4x ERJ
TLV: 2x 777
TPA: 1x 738, 4x 733
TUL: 2x ERJ
TYS: 1x ERJ, 1x ER3
XNA: 2x ERJ
YHZ: 1x 735, 3x ERJ
YOW: 3x ERJ, 1x ER3
YQB: 3x ERJ
YUL: 5x ERJ
YVR: 1x 73G
YYT: 1x ERJ
YYZ: 1x 738, 1x 73G, 1x 733, 3x ERJ
ZRH: 1x 762
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cslusarc
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:06 am

I think DL wants its passengers to double and tripple to connect to JFK-exclusive destinations like ATH - Athens, NCE - Nice and VCE - Venice. First I think that DL's transborder, intercontinental and express operations at JFK doesn't fit their network well. They are reminants of DL's (and Pan-Am's) long history. I think that DL's future at JFK is an all Song operation with limited flights to major transcontinental and sun destinations. I think it would make sense for DL to "sell" or swap these route athorities, their related slots (at destination airports) and some flight equiptmemt (like B767-300ERs) to friendly competitor CO. I think that more customers would benefit by having CO operate these routes from EWR than JFK.

That is my take on the situation.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
Delta4eva
Posts: 242
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 11):
I think it would make sense for DL to "sell" or swap these route authorities, their related slots (at destination airports) and some flight equiptmemt (like B767-300ERs) to friendly competitor CO

Why would Delta do this??? Delta is doing just fine with their international gateway at JFK. Even without any connecting traffic, the O&D of NYC is enough. However, Delta does have many connecting opportunities with Song, Delta mainline, and Delta Connection. I have often wondered why Delta just doesn't start calling JFK a hub because of their large operation. I think in the coming years, Delta/Song will continue to build their presence at JFK.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:23 am

Delta tried to have a full hub operation from JFK in 1999-2000. It didn't really work out all that well, but they had added MANY domestic destinations.

N
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:28 am

Bigger isn't always better in this case. If DL does well with O&D at JFK, why would they need to add domestic feeder flights to JFK when they can feed the transatlantic flights out/in of CVG and ATL? It's all about profit, not size, and an airline can only do so much with the resources they have.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the availaiblity of slots at JFK during the peak hours when the transatlantic flights arrive and depart. It's my understanding that JFK can get very congested, but I am sure the NYC residents and airline employees can attest to the craziness of JFK when it is backed up. Anybody have any insight on the slot situation at JFK?
 
tsnamm
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:03 pm

actually a great deal of CO's business in EWR is connecting business,,,thats why they can offer flights to secondary cities in Europe such as EDI and BRS...if O&D traffic was the primary source of passengers BA/AA/DL could and would add flts to these destinations...when you can consolidate 400 plus flights to feed these smaller cities local O&D traffic is not nearly as important...
 
kkfla737
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:50 pm

Both Pan Am and TWA attempted to use JFK to feed passengers to Europe. But by the time PA and TW developed storng domestic feeder networks, airlines such as American (Chicago), Northwest (Boston and later Detroit), Delta (Atlanta), and Continetal (Newark) developed alternative gateways to Europe with much stronger connecting possibilies and the ability to avoid the infamous JFK customs agents. TWA and PA thus were primarily reliant on O&D to Europe from JFK, and these days with Continetal at EWR and US at PHL offering almost as many European options (I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers) DL need not waste too much effort making JFK a major connecting facility. They do have flights from just about every major city even if they are RJ flights timed to connect with the European departures, and that is good enough.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:38 pm

For what it's worth, here's DL's schedule at JFK, as of 6/17/05:

AMS: 1x 763
ATH: 1x 763
ATL: 2x 763, 1x 757, 1x 738, 3x CRJ (2x Atlantic Southeast, 1x Comair)
BWI: 1x CR7 (Comair), 1x CRJ (Comair)
BCN: 1x 763
TXL: 1x 763
BOS: 6x CRJ (Comair)
BRU: 1x 763
CHS: 2x CRJ (Comair)
CLT: 1x CRJ (Atlantic Southeast)
ORD: 1x CRJ (Comair)
CVG: 1x 763, 1x 757, 3x CRJ (Comair)
CMH: 1x ERJ (Chautauqua)
DTW: 3x CRJ (Comair)
FLL: 5x 757 (Song)
RSW: 2x 757 (Song)
FRA: 1x 763
GSO: 3x CRJ (Comair)
IND: 1x CRJ (Comair)
IST: 1x 763
JAX: 3x CRJ (Comair)
LAS: 1x 757 (Song)
LAX: 7x 757 (6x Song)
SDF: 3x CRJ (Comair)
MAD: 1x 763
MLB: 2x CRJ (Comair)
MEX: 1x 757
MXP: 1x 763
SVO: 1x 763
BNA: 1x CRJ (Comair)
NAS: 1x 757 (Song)
ORF: 2x CRJ (Comair)
MCO: 5x 757 (Song)
CDG: 2x 763
PNS: 2x CRJ (Comair)
PHL: 1x CRJ (Comair)
PIT: 2x CRJ (Comair)
RDU: 3x CRJ (Comair)
FCO: 1x 763
STL: 2x CRJ (Comair)
SLC: 3x 757
SFO: 1x 763, 3x 757
SJU: 2x 757
STI: 1x 757
SDQ: 1x 763
SAV: 2x CRJ (Comair)
SEA: 2x 757
TLH: 2x CRJ (Comair)
TPA: 3x 757 (Song)
YYZ: 1x CRJ (Comair)
VCE: 1x 763
DCA: 1x 738
IAD: 1x CRJ (Comair)
PBI: 2x 757 (Song)

edited to add:
NCE: 1x 763

[Edited 2005-06-17 08:04:51]
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
rwsea
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:57 pm

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 16):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:13 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 18):
Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 16):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Venice can also be added to that list.

Jeremy
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:17 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
Venice can also be added to that list.

You might want to inform Bruce Lakefield that he does not run a US carrier. I was under the impression that US Airways was, in fact, based in Arlington, Virginia, which is part of the United States, and flies nonstop from Philadelphia to Venice.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
panamair
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:44 pm

DL's operation at JFK is really not that shabby. In fact, if you take DL Mainline, Song, and Delta Connection together, the overall DL presence at JFK is the largest it has ever been. DL now offers nonstop service from JFK to 56 cities/airports (20 international-including YYZ, MEX- and 36 domestic-including SJU) through approx. 115 daily flights. The number of cities offered is more than any other carrier at JFK (including B6).

B6's development at JFK has helped DL tremendously as well in terms of developing JFK into a domestic-travel-friendly airport.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:57 pm

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
Delta is doing just fine with their international gateway at JFK

Delta is not really doing "just fine" at all at JFK. International operations have shrunk over the years with more and more service being shifted to Atlanta. Between 2000 and 2004, DL has reduced JFK European city pairs from 20 to 13. Domestic operations like the transcons have not worked very well and are being now being tried on Song. JFK international flights are using DL's smallest equipment type, while Atlanta has sees both larger aircraft and additional frequencies on several city pairs.

In 2004, of DL 13, European cities serviced from JFK less then 25% had positive operating margins for the company, while in comparison all but a few of the Atlanta European services had either a positive or breakeven margin for the year.

The biggest beneficiary, and possible cause of Delta slide at JFK has been Continental. The carrier has seen strong growth on Atlantic services in the last few years with multiple destinations being added from its EWR hub.

DL has floundered at JFK with several on/off attempt to grow/reduce the size of the operation. I think with DL's continued cost cutting an realignment more and more services could very well be shifted to Atlanta causing DL JFK reduce in importance in the overall network. DL is clearly being squeezed on many sides, Jetblue on Florida and transcon flying, along with CO at EWR with its domestic and particularly growing international network.
Delta has not been able to achieve positive results with either NYC O&D traffic, nor using JFK as a connecting hub for the last several years.

I know there are some strong DL fans on the a.net that dont want to admit that the last vestiges of Pan Am's European operations at JFK are no longer a crown jewel for Delta. While probably also disliked by some of the same people Atlanta is becoming the airlines international traffic hub. At least it produces some postive results for the carrier something JFK continues to fail to do.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24560
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:04 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Venice can also be added to that list.

And Berlin. Though Moscow now has Atlanta service.
a.
 
newkai
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:17 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
B6's development at JFK has helped DL tremendously as well in terms of developing JFK into a domestic-travel-friendly airport.

Yep, B6 is DL (and all other trans-atlantic carriers') feeder airline at JFK! For example, DL, AA, and more used to have their subsidiaries feed people into JFK from places like Upstate NY. When B6 came along, the major's puddlejumpers became less attractive than taking a $49 flight with B6. AE and BEX stopped flying to JFK from Upstate around this time. Manually bringing over you luggage used to be a pain, but has gotten a lot easier with the SkyTrain.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
JFK international flights are using DL's smallest equipment type, while Atlanta has sees both larger aircraft and additional frequencies on several city pairs.

DL has only 5 777s available, and why they are kept at ATL has been explained here: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2172980/
About the frequencies, let's combine the answer with this comment:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
In 2004, of DL 13, European cities serviced from JFK less then 25% had positive operating margins for the company, while in comparison all but a few of the Atlanta European services had either a positive or breakeven margin for the year.

That has to do with the huge difference in markets between ATL and JFK. At ATL, DL only has competition to AMS (for now), LGW and FRA, everywhere else they either have a monopoly where they could charge what they want, plus CDG where they cooperate with AF. At JFK on the other hand, they chave competition to AMS (for now), ATH (OA), BRU (AA), FRA (LH 3x), CDG (AA), SVO (for now), IST (TK), MAD (IB) and FCO (AA). Only to NCE, BCN and VCE does DL enjoy a monopoly into NYC. And obviously, competition means lower prices. Now, if you were DL and wanted to make money off of your connecting pax (not O&D), which hub would you use? Obviously ATL, because yields to Europe are better from there, so it only is natural that routes from ATL see more frequencies.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
The biggest beneficiary, and possible cause of Delta slide at JFK has been Continental. The carrier has seen strong growth on Atlantic services in the last few years with multiple destinations being added from its EWR hub.

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
DL has floundered at JFK with several on/off attempt to grow/reduce the size of the operation. I think with DL's continued cost cutting an realignment more and more services could very well be shifted to Atlanta causing DL JFK reduce in importance in the overall network.

The last 13 months prove you wrong on that account.
Within this time, DL/Song/DCI has launched new service to CHS, RSW, GSO, SJU, SDQ, STI, TXL, CLT, SDF, MLB, TLH, PNS, ORF, SAV,NAS, and added frequencies or upgraded equipment to ATL, BWI, STL, JAX, RDU, DTW, PIT, SEA and SFO. On the negative side, they discontinued SAN and DEN, which were started within these 13 months to begin with, PHX, have reduced SDQ by one frequency, and will soon drop RSW. No compare the two sides. If you still think that DL would love to dispose of its JFK gateway, you need to show good arguments.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
I know there are some strong DL fans on the a.net that dont want to admit that the last vestiges of Pan Am's European operations at JFK are no longer a crown jewel for Delta.

JFK hasn't been the crown jewel ever since 1996, when DL massively beefed up Europe service from ATL because of the Summer Olympics. However, JFK is still an integral part of the Delta network.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
While probably also disliked by some of the same people Atlanta is becoming the airlines international traffic hub.

ATL has always been Delta's main international hub, long before LAX was aqcuired from Western or JFK from Pan Am, which is a natural choice given where DL is HQ'ed.

[Edited 2005-06-17 13:40:08]
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:19 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
At JFK on the other hand, they chave competition to AMS (for now), ATH (OA), BRU (AA), FRA (LH 3x), CDG (AA), SVO (for now), IST (TK), MAD (IB) and FCO (AA). Only to NCE, BCN and VCE does DL enjoy a monopoly into NYC.

But this is exactly the problem....DL is afraid (or not able) to compete.

They bailed on LAX because the competition was too strong.
They bailed on DFW because the competition was too strong.
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong.
What's going to happen when B6 launches a slew of E190's against DL's CRJ's out of JFK?

The only place DL seems to be able to compete are in hubs where DL controls a majority of the traffic.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:04 pm

I was under the impression that US Airways was, in fact, based in Arlington, Virginia

For the moment, yes. Soon to be Tempe, Arizona.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:48 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
But this is exactly the problem....DL is afraid (or not able) to compete.

They bailed on LAX because the competition was too strong.
They bailed on DFW because the competition was too strong.
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong.
What's going to happen when B6 launches a slew of E190's against DL's CRJ's out of JFK?

The only place DL seems to be able to compete are in hubs where DL controls a majority of the traffic.

Exactly my point....DL is my favorite airline but the only place they flex any muscle is mostly ATL and its other two hubs in CVG and SLC. Everywhere else it seems they have no balls and run when competition turns up the heat. It bears mentioning that song has been a very good answer to B6...I will certainly grant them that. But DL is not nearly as aggressive as other carriers out there.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:53 pm

laxintl

You seem to know what is going with Delta up in JFK in the past. I would characterize it the same way...But you're going off years where Delta had a much higher cost structure. We are smack in the middle of huge cost overhaul that does not even begin to show up until this Quarter.

This has always been a business with small margins, so it doesn't take that big a shift to turn things around.



And a little NYC factoid.

Delta has 2/3rds the number of passengers as CO in NYC. A 14.8% share compared to 22.2% for CO.

[Edited 2005-06-17 15:55:34]

[Edited 2005-06-17 15:56:30]
 
panamair
Posts: 3761
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong

Actually that is not entirely true. Some of these JFK-Europe flights were simply not making money, competition or no competition. For example, you cannot say that JFK-LYS/ARN/MUC were all dropped due to excessive competition; DL had no direct competition (U.S. or non-U.S.) from JFK in those markets at all. Also, JFK-MAN/SNN/DUB/ZRH/HEL/TXL were all dropped when there were no other U.S. carriers in the market either. Another good example is JFK-BRU. It was dropped after 9/11 but then reinstated later in 2001 after SN went bust. Since then, DL has had to contend with both CO (albeit from EWR) and AA (the latest entrant) in that market and it has remained in it till today.

Some a.netters are lamenting that DL has cut a whole lot of the flights inherited from Pan Am but that is because some of them were never profitable even with Pan Am. Since the PA acquisition, DL has added nonstops from JFK that PA never served directly such as:
JFK-ATH (PA served ATH via FRA)
JFK-IST (PA served IST via FRA)
JFK-VCE (PA never served VCE)
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:04 am

At JFK all US airlines are in a much weaker position versus their European counterparts. You just do not see one US airline being the dominant carrier on this end. LH controls the business to Germany, AF controls France, BA controls UK. So much so that they can actually do a very good job of keeping business travel off routes they do not even fly on. LYS/MUC/TXL/HAM..etc. They are in tight with European travel consortiums and European corporate travel departments. CO is able to to a much better job because the are the only game in town on that side of NYC and the can single connect so many US markets.

The only chance US carriers have is to drive costs lower. That's it.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2358
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
Why would Delta do this??? Delta is doing just fine with their international gateway at JFK.

If that is the case why didn't JFK-NRT work out? it does not bode well if DL plans on launching JFK-Asia services in the near future does it? NRT is a major, major destination.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
It didn't really work out all that well, but they had added MANY domestic destinations

. True, how come they couldn't make DEN and SAN work? Those are major destinations.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 29):
Delta has 2/3rds the number of passengers as CO in NYC. A 14.8% share compared to 22.2% for CO.

True, but given the size of the market that is an enormous difference.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Venice can also be added to that list.

And Berlin

No, not Berlin. CO is flying to Berlin also (or will in a few days)
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
DL's operation at JFK is really not that shabby.

Maybe, maybe not. But what isn't debatable is that WHERE their operation is located IS shabby beyond belief. If getting to EWR weren't more inconvenient than flying out of JFK for someone, who in the hell would want to fly out of/into the hell hole that is JFK T2 vs. EWR Terminal C, especially when you can now earn SkyMiles on CO? JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility... undoubtedly the most confusing, cramped, ugly and dirty international terminal we have in this country. How embarrassing.

CO's EWR Terminal C is beautiful, with fantastic shopping and facilities.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
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RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:30 am

That is crazy. It depends on where you at if JFK or EWR is more than convenient. EWR gets only 14% of Manhattan business. Kings/Queens/Long Island much much less.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 34):
It depends on where you at if JFK or EWR is more than convenient.

No shit. That's not my point. Re-read my post. My point is, if the 2 airports were equally convenient for someone, why would they choose JFK... Delta's facilities are absolutely hideous.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
kkfla737
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:28 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:34 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
They bailed on LAX because the competition was too strong.
They bailed on DFW because the competition was too strong.
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong.
What's going to happen when B6 launches a slew of E190's against DL's CRJ's out of JFK?

And in essence they have bailed on Orlando also. At one time Delta flew from Orlando to major cities throughout the nation, and some European destinations like Frankfurt as well. Now Delta flies RJs to medium sized Southern cities. Delta has had three incarnations at Orlando- the first an effort to relieve traffic on ATL with flights to major cities and int'l flights as well, the second with flights to places where WN was anticipated to be going like Buffalo, Albany, Providence and Nashville using Delta Express, and the third now where cities like Little Rock and Huntsville are connected to Orlando. Delta bailed on the first plan when US and UA increased their Orlando presence, even though Delta clearly had the edge being a carrier that had tradtional ties in all Florida markets (including Miami where Delta cut and ran after AA moved in, and Fort Lauderdale where Delta has only recently begun fighting back from LCC and legacy competition), and bailed on the 2nd when WN did in fact begin services to the cities mentioned. How long will the RJ flying from Orlando, Fort Lauderdale and Tampa last? What happens if Jet Blue or Air Tran decided to fly the same routes? Delta will once again bail out.

Delta's pullback from LAX was particularly sad since WA left Delta with a huge market share after the merger at LAX and lots and lots of increased traffic possibilies when integrated into Delta's larger network. At the time in the late 80s, AA wasn't even a factor at LAX, WN hadn't really pushed in hard yet and CO was pulling away from LAX. Why then did Delta fail? As FLYPNS1 stated they flinch everything any hint of competition comes, and they constantly shift their business plan more so than any other legacy carrier, even the poorly run US Airways.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:37 am

If a tree fell in the woods and no one heard does it make sound? What does a this hypothetical have to do with reality?

You think if JFK had better facilities they would get more business? Very little seeing that EWR gets only 14% of Manhattan business.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:55 am

You're a day late and a dollar short... you still don't get it.

I'll dumb it down for you:

Delta's Terminal 3 SUCKS. IT'S ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. That's really my only point.

I live in Manhattan, equidistant from both EWR and JFK. People flying in to do business in Manhattan are also roughly equidistant from both airports.

I can choose to fly out of EWR or JFK. I would never fly to/from Europe out of Delta's T2, and I don't understand those in a similar situation (see aforementioned parameters) who would WANT or CHOOSE to fly in/out of that hell hole over CO's Terminal C... especially now that Delta and Continental are partners. It just doesn't make sense. This isn't a hypothetical example... it's real.

(edited for typo)

[Edited 2005-06-17 17:59:41]
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:56 am

Ok, so if DL is always running away with their tail between their legs, then why did DL even set up Song to compete with JB and not just give up JFK? Why are they still coexisting with Air Tran at ATL? How can they handle all the LCC competition at FLL?
I find it interesting that whenever DL pulls out of a market, it is considered just fleeing from competition and showing weekness. Ever heard of adjusting to the market to make money? Obviously, DL saw that there were markets ex JFK/MCO/LAX, where there was no money to be made. And as always, no word on positive news at other hubs.
DL now serves 16 cities in Europe from ATL? Who cares, they downgraded JFK.
DL now offers more flights from TPA and FLL than ever before each? Who cares, they have downgraded MCO.
SLC is now bigger than it has ever been under Western? Who cares, they downgraded LAX.
It is always the same complaints over and over again.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
who in the hell would want to fly out of/into the hell hole that is JFK T2 vs. EWR Terminal C, especially when you can now earn SkyMiles on CO? JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility

By the way, I meant to say JFK T3, although T2 is just as bad.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 889
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
Ok, so if DL is always running away with their tail between their legs, then why did DL even set up Song to compete with JB and not just give up JFK?

I did mention that song is a formidable response to B6.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
Why are they still coexisting with Air Tran at ATL?

ATL isn't in question...they own it. I would guess 75% of their eggs are in that basket and thats part of our point.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
DL now serves 16 cities in Europe from ATL? Who cares, they downgraded JFK

See above.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
DL now offers more flights from TPA and FLL than ever before each? Who cares, they have downgraded MCO.

Yes but with RJ's from all three cities in fact.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
SLC is now bigger than it has ever been under Western? Who cares, they downgraded LAX.

Only because they dumped DFW after they brought a knife to gunfight going after mamouth AA with...you guessed it..RJ's.

There are more ways for DL to be successful than just ATL AND RJ'S!
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:02 am

I like Delta but just want to clarify a few points.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
SLC is now bigger than it has ever been under Western?

This is true if you include Delta Connection. But mainline is significantly lower. At its high point Delta had about 165 mainline flights out of SLC and now it is down to about 100.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
DL now offers more flights from TPA and FLL than ever before each?

Same is true here, at least for FLL. Delta once had about 45 mainline flights at FLL and it is now about 30.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
Ever heard of adjusting to the market to make money?

And how much money is DL making?

Clearly, there are times when you have to cut your losses and move on, but you also have to be willing to defend some markets. So far, it seems the only markets DL will defend are ATL, SLC, CVG and to some extent the big Florida cities. And much of DL's defense of these markets relies on a flood of high-cost RJ's. The RJ's may work in some instances, but how will they stand up to B6's E190's? And will all these RJ's ever produce enough revenue so that DL can dig itself out of nearly $22 Billion dollars of debt?

DL is supposed to be a major global carrier. But it's very hard to be a major global carrier when your three hubs are ATL, SLC and CVG. Of those three, only ATL is positioned to be truly global hub. This is why you need to be able to maintain a large presence in places like JFK or LAX or SFO.

So while AA and CO are bringing in premium revenue from all their new Asian flights, DL (who has no natural Asian gateway) is left flying a bunch of low-yield tourists on high-CASM RJ's to Florida. Who's strategy do you think will work?
 
tsnamm
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 35):
Delta's facilities are absolutely hideous.

However the IAT and Terminal One are state of the art and as nice as Terminal C in EWR...and I would expect AA's new terminal to also be that nice or better...however the "worldport" that DL uses hasn't been upgraded since Pan Am owned it...
[quote=TWFirst,reply=33]who in the hell would want to fly out of/into the hell hole that is JFK T2 vs. EWR Terminal C, especially when you can now earn SkyMiles on CO? JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility... undoubtedly the most confusing, cramped, ugly and dirty international terminal we have in this country. How embarrassing.

CO's EWR Terminal C is beautiful, with fantastic shopping and facilities.
thankfully terminal 2 is only 1 out of 9 at JFK , and very easy to bash...the newly constructed terminals are as good as anything in EWR...
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 44):
owever the IAT and Terminal One are state of the art and as nice as Terminal C in EWR...and I would expect AA's new terminal to also be that nice or better...however the "worldport" that DL uses hasn't been upgraded since Pan Am owned it...



Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 44):
thankfully terminal 2 is only 1 out of 9 at JFK , and very easy to bash...the newly constructed terminals are as good as anything in EWR...

Irrelevant. We're talking about Delta and its operations at JFK... not other airlines' operations or their facilities at JFK. Yes, the other terminals are great, but Delta doesn't operate from them.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
DeltaMIA
Posts: 1622
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 38):
Delta's Terminal 3 SUCKS. IT'S ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. That's really my only point.

Nobody picks an airport based on terminals. They pick it based on convenience. Do you really think the business traveler is saying to him/herself that maybe they can get some shopping done before they head out to NCE or TXL? The terminal is the last thing on a traveler's mind when going halfway across the world. Give me a break.
DL wants their facility to appear the best it can but they are dealing with a nearly 50 year old infrastructure and a city that wants the whole bill to be on DL when the renovation topic is brought up. If/when a new terminal is built the logistics of working around the construction is a nightmare in itself.
You are definitely in the minority, but yes you have a choice. Enjoy all the choices of chocolate and alcohol for purchase you have at EWR.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 46):
Nobody picks an airport based on terminals.

Bullpucky. All things being equal.... equal convenience, comparable price.... a business traveler is going to pick EWR. Why would anyone want to wait around at that hot, smelly, cramped hell hole?? Stop making excuses just because you work for Delta. Why wouldn't the city want Delta to foot the bill for its own, exclusive terminal? JetBlue is going to pay for its new terminal. AA is paying for its new terminal.

People pick certain flights over others because of airports all the time.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 889
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:15 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Clearly, there are times when you have to cut your losses and move on, but you also have to be willing to defend some markets. So far, it seems the only markets DL will defend are ATL, SLC, CVG and to some extent the big Florida cities. And much of DL's defense of these markets relies on a flood of high-cost RJ's. The RJ's may work in some instances, but how will they stand up to B6's E190's? And will all these RJ's ever produce enough revenue so that DL can dig itself out of nearly $22 Billion dollars of debt?

DL is supposed to be a major global carrier. But it's very hard to be a major global carrier when your three hubs are ATL, SLC and CVG. Of those three, only ATL is positioned to be truly global hub. This is why you need to be able to maintain a large presence in places like JFK or LAX or SFO.

So while AA and CO are bringing in premium revenue from all their new Asian flights, DL (who has no natural Asian gateway) is left flying a bunch of low-yield tourists on high-CASM RJ's to Florida. Who's strategy do you think will work?

Preach.....this is the best analysis of DL with respect to its operation that I've heard yet. The odd thing is that its been this way with two different management teams. When is someone going to take the healm that will let DL flex its muscle?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:19 am

All things being equal.... equal convenience, comparable price.... a business traveler is going to pick EWR.

Sure, all things being equal. But that is RARE. The truth of the matter is that although T3 does suck, it doesn't significantly affect Delta's bottom line.

Btw, am I the only one who enjoys flying from T3? I think it's awesome because you have such a great nostalgic feeling flying from there.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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