UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:58 am

As you are all well aware the IAM has a new tentative agreement with UA for the Ramp and CS employees. They are very proud of it. They ought to be, becasue they have cleverly manipulated the members into thinking that they are doing something FOR them all the while doing something TO them.

UA was offering the IAM membership a pension replacement that was a 401k with 4% matching funds from UA. OK that's fine everyone knows what a 401k is and matching is done by just about every company out there.

NO NO, say the IAM. Our members don't want your money to manage themselves they want a pension. So give that UNION that money, and we will have the members in a IAM Pension.

Think I'm wrong? This is from the IAM website iam141.org : " This agreement also introduces a new defined benefit pension plan for IAM members, which cannot be unilaterally terminated by United Airlines." Key words are NEW DEFINED PENSION BENEFIT PLAN. The reason Pensions are in so much trouble is becasue they don't work. They are defined benefit plans, Defined CONTRIBUTION plans are cheaper, more flexible and SOLELY OWNED BY THE EMPLOYEE.

The IAM has screwed us out of money that UA was OFFERING US. Randy Canale is stealing our money. VOTE NO to this travesty of a contract. VOTE NO to a strike too. Its no UA fault the UNION did this to us. When the Judge dissolves our contract we are then free to get a new UNION.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:27 pm

The IAM managed to pull the same at US Airways. They are also now contributing to the national IAM plan.

UA does have some protection in this deal as they are only required to pay a certain amount per employee, so to the company the payout would basically have been similar under a 401k program. Like you mentioned one of the key differences is now employees would loose flexibility that the 401k program would have afforded them in making investment decisions for themselves.
The only good thing I could say about the plan, is that being a national plan it bridges many employers. Thus the failure of any single company would likely not parse wipe out the plan and force the PBGC to take over.

This again is another example of the union believing it knows what is best for you.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15215
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:36 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
The IAM has screwed us out of money that UA was OFFERING US

Should I feign surprise?  Yeah sure
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:01 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
The IAM has screwed us out of money that UA was OFFERING US

Should I feign surprise?

No you shouldn't. However, I for one am fed up with this bunch of self serving morons.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
The only good thing I could say about the plan, is that being a national plan it bridges many employers. Thus the failure of any single company would likely not parse wipe out the plan and force the PBGC to take over.

That is one hell of a stretch to find a si9lver lining. Facts are that the IAM can't run a defined benefit Pension any better than UA, US, Ford, GM Bethlehem Steel or any of the thousands of Pensions that have been taken over by the PBGC. Pensions just don't work they are a Ponsy sceme.

UA was offering me and my fellow workers a 4% raise. Granted that money couldn't be touched until retirement, but that money would have been OURS. Not the IAMs. THE IAM TURNED AWAY A 4% RAISE TO ITS MEMBERSHIP. So it could enrich itself and bailout its own Pension fund. Sorry US, but if my vote will keep my money from bailing out your Pension, then I'm voting NO to this contract.

UA CS and Ramp guys come on... if anything could make you mad this should. You're being robbed and the robber is telling you its for your own good.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:14 pm

This is one of the reasons why Im not even a fan of the IAM. When I was at AS as a CSA, the IAM screwed me over and never protected me when I needed them most... Those IAM people are stupid, Im telling ya!

IMO, AMFA is much better union than the IAM.... Im not going to go on explaining why....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ordpark
Posts: 562
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:20 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:32 pm

UALPHLCS - I share your feelings....But, frankly, if the IAM wants this to pass, I'm pretty sure that this will pass! And I bet your union dues go up soon also.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1181
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):

" This agreement also introduces a new defined benefit pension plan for IAM members, which cannot be unilaterally terminated by United Airlines.

I thought that UAL's agreement with the PBGC was that they could not contribute any monies to another defined benefit plan? Please tell me if I am wrong.

Otherwise, the PBGC has gotten hoodwinked and the whole ball game starts over again, which they wanted to avoid.
 
FA4UA
Posts: 777
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:26 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:06 pm

I'm sorry, but is the IAM still reading out of 1950's economics text books?

How many pension schemes have to fail before they realise this system doesn't work? A matching 401k is the next best alternative, at least then each person has some autonomy!

I can't wait to see what AFA signs with UA... ours is still being hammered out. I can only hope for the best!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
flick70
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:19 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:36 pm

I view unions (except for coal miners, what a rotten job) as similar to West Nile Virus, AIDS and the Plague....avoid at all costs, they will only hurt you in the end.

A once great idea that has outlived it's purpose. Best of luck to the UA employees.
/// Braniff - We Get You There In Flying Colors /// (until Putnam got ahold of us)
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:01 pm

P.T. Barnum would be proud!

Seriously, this is exactly why the CO F/A's voted down their deal--because it turned over their pension to the IAM. They voted no more to their union than they did to CO in terms of a concessionary contract.

The IAM is mis-managed and does it's members a horrible disservice. But hey, ole Randy can still fly around on the corporate jet compliments of your dues money, so what's not to love?

The hypocrisy of unions just slays me.
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:00 am

Oh, no the IAM is such a horrible organization! Imagine that! Try telling that to former TWA F/A's that swore by that union.

AA
APFA
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:03 am

I bet the guys at AirTran are saying "I sure am glad we didn't vote them guys in here." The IAM has tried and failed on several occassions in the last 6+ years to unionize the rampers and gate agents @ FL, and have failed every time. Perhaps after seeing the way they've caused their members at some airlines to get screwed over, perhaps they'll think twice before trying to get them to represent them.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:20 am

Quoting Ordpark (Reply 5):
But, frankly, if the IAM wants this to pass, I'm pretty sure that this will pass! And I bet your union dues go up soon also.

We are the memebers. We have until July 22 to get IAM members to vote this contract down.
On the whole I like this contract. It is crappy but it minimizes the finacial pain, all except this Pension fund provision which has me outraged.

I call on every free thinking IAM covered UA employee to urge your co-workers to vote NO.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:25 pm

UALPHLCS does have a good point. The IAM could under-fund and hide it just as UAL did over the years. If I were in that position, I would rather take the extra cash with tax deducted before letting someone else handle it all for me, especially all the failures going on. Good luck to both sides in finding a win-win contract!
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
avpilot01
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:28 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Which brings me to the current question.....Why do the UA and US unions keep conceeding???? Why don't they fight back and say no to the self serving union heads??? I am scratching my head in disbeleif at these employees decision to accept whatever the IAM brings their way. The TWU is trying to get the CO employees to join in on the fun.... Those guys can take it and shove it up their bums....unions used to be able to do something for you, but now all the airlines are losing money, and unions are making a crap of a difference, in fact they are losing jobs for everyone....i.e.Alaska rampers in SEA. Good luck to all of you!
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting Avpilot01 (Reply 14):
Why don't they fight back and say no to the self serving union heads??? I am scratching my head in disbeleif at these employees decision to accept whatever the IAM brings their way.

Because they are fed propaganda from the union that the Union is looking out for them. UA's contract proposal was printed for the memebership to see under the title "United's Demands."

When I went in today to argue about the Defined benefit vs defined contribution plans several employees told me UA didn't offer a 401k with matching. That the Union rep told them so. I pulled down the Union printed sheet and showed them in writing were UA did offer it, and I was told "Those were United demands we don't want any of those." I was speachless.

Ohters are afraid that they can't afford to save in a 401K, but they just don't understand that they will take home more money becasue they arre taxed on a lower gross.

Between the complexity of the issue and the Unions propaganda we have a long fight ahead. But we have until July 22 and alot of people are angered by the pay cuts and lose of holidays and vacation time and the like so adding those NO votes will help the cause.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:06 pm

My neighbor ramper at United Dulles says his colleagues are unhappy with the agreement. He says they're voting NO. But they also believe the corrupt IAM will rig the results.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
JC5280
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:56 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 16):
But they also believe the corrupt IAM will rig the results.

Like the 92% "stike vote" that supposedly occurred? I believe people voted, but everyone I know wonders who those 92% of the members are....certainly not in DEN or SFO, and thats way more than 8% of the members. Its all rigged. What would you do if you were in the IAM's position? What leg would you have to stand on if you did not show an overwhelming member vote for a strike? Do you think UA would listen if the IAM came at them with a 54% strike vote? Think about it folks...
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:07 pm

So here's my question. If an IAM employee wants to move to a non-IAM dept, what the hell happens to their retirement?

Total bullcrap, but it's from the IAM, what do you expect...
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:30 pm

With the IAM pension, members will be stuck with IAM representation. There will be no way to vote them out and bring in a new union or go non-union. This deal is good only for the IAM leadership who want to make sure no one leaves the union and the dues continue to flow in.

United employees should vote NO.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
User avatar
ramprat74
Posts: 1322
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:01 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 16):
My neighbor ramper at United Dulles says his colleagues are unhappy with the agreement. He says they're voting NO. But they also believe the corrupt IAM will rig the results.

I just love hearing what your "United Ramper" neighbor has to say. Maybe he and his colleagues should go get those jobs they had lined up when they were going to strike two months ago. We have around 90 rampers here in PDX. There are only about four guys that said they would vote NO on this contract. This is the same four schmucks that has been spouting their pie holes off for the last two years. The only thing we are upset about is the vacation time lost. It could of been a lot worst.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:13 am

Quoting RampRat74 (Reply 20):
The only thing we are upset about is the vacation time lost. It could of been a lot worst.

Listen, I'm not a guy who is very militant when it comes to the Union contracts and stiking. But the vacation time lost is the least of the problems with this travesty of a contract. And I agree with you that it could have been worse.

However, nothing is as bad as this IAM Pension. If we vote yes to this Pension deal we are actually settling for something worse than what the Company offered. We will look like a bunch of sheep being let around by the Union and beleiving everything they say rather than the intelligent people Ramp and CS are.

I have faith that enough Ramp and CS people are free thinkers who can read this contract and see what a sh!tty deal this Pension is. More and more people in PHL including the commitee person are really upset over this contract. I can only hope its the case in more stations. We need to pass the word to all that will listen.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
avpilot01
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:28 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:48 am

So who's to say the IAM can't count votes in their favor??? Are they the only one's with access to the votes of the employees? How does that work?
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:20 pm

I believe that would be illegal Avpilot01.  Wink
 
320tech
Posts: 489
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:38 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:08 pm

Perhaps you'd be interested in the experience Air Canada employees (AME's and baggage handlers) had with IAM.

They are also represented by IAM, and the contract was renegotiated when AC went into bankruptcy protection in 2003. IAM negotiated away shift premiums, a week of vacation, got us to work an extra two and a half hours per week, some small bonus payments, and also took a small pay cut. They were awfully happy about that - only a 1% (or whatever - I can't remember anymore) pay cut. Well, by my calculation, the 1% actually worked out to about 16%.

Why would they do that? Because union dues are calculated on basic pay - the money you earn before shift premiums, longevity pay, and a couple of other things IAM gave away. So whose interests were they representing? Their own, of course.

To make sure the deal went through, IAM provided only the barest details. They didn't provide a copy of the contract before the vote. In case things went bad for them, what did they provide to mark ballots with? You bet, pencils.

IAM knows their own interests, and doesn't much care about their supposed members. No amount of union propaganda will convince me otherwise.
The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
 
User avatar
ramprat74
Posts: 1322
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:01 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 21):

We can't trust the IAM either. The local commitee lies to our faces every chance they get. I can't believe how many local polices PDX has. It seems most of the time, they are in the local managements corner, and not ours. One of my co-workers sued the local lodge and won, for pay the IAM wouldn't fight the company for.

I think the Ramp had a lot more to lose then CS. The company wants to get rid of mail, fueling (which they are). They want to have unlimited Part-Timers. They want to close all line-Ramp stations, and convert them over to CS. So with all these demands from the company. I think the IAM did a OK job in this contract.

We can show the IAM and vote down this one. What does that do? It will just make it easier for the Judge to throw out the contracts, and most of us will be making $10.00 a hour, or on the street.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:22 pm

Quoting RampRat74 (Reply 25):
most of us will be making $10.00 a hour, or on the street.

I've been spinning my wheels for the past three years at just above that pay level.

Frankly, if you vote in favor of this agreement you have lost in the longterm to gain for the short term. Your going to have to work somewhere doing something until you get to retirement age. What then? The IAM will have pissed away money that was rightfully yours, and there won't be a thing you can do about it then.

I recommend voting no. The Union is trying to scare you into thinking the judge will give you something worse than what they negotiatied. This deal couldn't be worse for your future. Vote for this deal and Randy Canale and the other IAM brains will get the message loud and clear that they can scare the membership into excepting anything they tell us is good.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Wingspan
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:26 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:24 pm

Quoting Avpilot01 (Reply 14):
Why do the UA and US unions keep conceeding????

Certainly not backing them, but what leverage do they have? What choices are left in this hellhole of a time in our industry? (I'm not being sarcastic).

Regards,

Wingspan
Over the years, I've found that common sense is not that common.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:20 pm

You know what the irony of all this is? If UA had rejected the agreement and the IAM went on strike over the pension issue, wouldn't most of the membership have been striking over something they didn't even support, when they supported what the company wanted to give them (401(k))?
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 28):
You know what the irony of all this is? If UA had rejected the agreement and the IAM went on strike over the pension issue, wouldn't most of the membership have been striking over something they didn't even support, when they supported what the company wanted to give them (401(k))?

Actually, I'm trying to get members to vote NO to the contract and to strike. It was the IAMs fault that this contract is a mess not the company. If the Judge dissolves our contract it should give us the opportunity to vote the IAM out.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:01 am

UALPHLCS....You're on my respected users list for many good reasons.

You mention voting out the IAM. Once they get their hands on United employee's retirement funds, it'll be impossible to vote them out. Does the the new contract explain what happens to your pension funds, when/if United employees get smart and ditch the IAM?
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:02 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 29):
Actually, I'm trying to get members to vote NO to the contract and to strike. It was the IAMs fault that this contract is a mess not the company. If the Judge dissolves our contract it should give us the opportunity to vote the IAM out.

And you won't have a company to work for in that case anyhow, so is this "scorched earth" theory really feasible?
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 30):
Once they get their hands on United employee's retirement funds, it'll be impossible to vote them out.

BiCoastal that's just the point isn't it. The IAM has insidiously made thier deal the only one that members think is good for them meanwhile it cements the IAMs hold over the membership who are sick and tired of thier talk and do nothing stance.

I am reminded of the scene in Braveheart were William Wallace chastises the Scottish nobles that they have been aruging over the "scraps from Longshanks table so long that the missed thier god given right to something better."

The IAM has distracted us with all kinds of scare tactics about shortterm problems, vacation, holidays, and the like. Meanwhile they are robbing us of our retirement. We are missing our right for something better, and giving the IAM absolute control over our futures. I'm 33 years old I have a long time till retirement, but I'll be damned if I'm going to work those years only to be screwed in the end. Not while we can do something about it NOW.

If the membership votes NO to strike and the contract, the judge will dissolve the contract, if that should happen we have a golden opportunity to rid ourselves of the IAM. I'm tired of Randy Canale lieing to me, I'm tired of him wanting a raise cause he's done such a great job.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:42 am

I have a few questions for all you IAM-haters and those opposed to this contract:

1.) What have you PERSONALLY done to get involved with the leadership of your local lodge to help solve the problems that you are so quick to identify? Do you have positive, constructive ideas that would solve them, or do you just sit always sit back and bitch at others who ARE making an effort?

2.) Did you offer to become involved in the negotiations process?

3.) If you were negotiating with UAL, could you have sealed a better deal than what is being voted on now?

4.) What do you think will happen if this is voted down? Do you think the Judge will give more time to get a better deal? (Hint: the answer is a big fat NO)

My point is, regardless of the organization, if the membership just sits back and complains about everything, but unwilling to do anything THEMSELVES to work to improving on what they have, what's the point? Apathy never solved anything. If you're that angry, GET INVOLVED! Otherwise, talk is cheap but it doesn't buy the whiskey...

No one is forcing you to stay at United Airlines and in turn, being a part of the IAM and paying dues. If you're that miserable, and you have something else lined up, by all means...take it. Leave. Don't deal with UA anymore and the IAM. We all have choices.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:27 pm

Steven I know you mean well and most times we agree about the best direction for UA. But this time I gotta say your way off base.

My main beef with this contract is the IAM Pension. I was actually looking forward to the 401k with matching. It would have brought our retirement into the 20th century. Instead the Union is stuck in a mindset that UA is akin to the railroads and coal mines of the late 19th century. They leteraly think that nothing has changed since the progressive era.

I was unhappy with alot of UA's proposals. But the Union negotiated away all that was good and kept alot of the bad in what UA proposed. Frankly if we vote down the IAM deal and the judge imposes UA's propsals, I won't be happy but we'd be better off than we are now in the long run.

Steven really, I know your a great defender of UA, and I appriciate that, but this isn't about the airline its about the crappy Union that is forced on us.

And to anwer your question I am involved with the Union I'm a shop steward. The Meeting we go to are practically meaningless becasue they also represent US so anything we vote on locally is dominated by US interests. I don't get my dues worth from the IAM.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
StevenUhl777
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:56 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 34):
My main beef with this contract is the IAM Pension. I was actually looking forward to the 401k with matching.

Between where the company is at right now vs. the union, I would trust the IAM pension plan any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm not especially happy with United right now, especially over this pension default and they way it was handled through a back-door/late-night meeting with the PGBC to default on a specific day. I wouldn't trust UA to touch *ANY* retirement plan whatsoever with a 10,000 mile long pole. I strongly suspect that the IAM pension plan is managed by an independent third party (say Fidelity), and that the leadership can't dip in to buy black cadillacs and hotels in Las Vegas. Can I suggest contacting IAM HQ in Upper Marlboro, MD to find out specifics, i.e. who manages it, union involvement, etc.? Union pensions used to be corrupt, but in light of all the mob shit in the '70's, I have to believe that any union-affiliated pension program is HEAVILY audited and there are strict rules that apply. Again, research the plan and how it's run. Someone at HQ can provide you with specific information, answer questions, or direct you to the plan managers who can answer your questions.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 34):
I was unhappy with alot of UA's proposals. But the Union negotiated away all that was good and kept alot of the bad in what UA proposed. Frankly if we vote down the IAM deal and the judge imposes UA's propsals, I won't be happy but we'd be better off than we are now in the long run.

How would you be better off? Unless it was all showboating, the union said that there would be a strike if the judge imposes terms. Any strike longer than say 2 days is certain death to UA. Better off? If UA's proposals were worse than the IAM's, and the judge imposes UA's terms, again...how would you be better off? You lost me..

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 34):
Steven really, I know your a great defender of UA, and I appriciate that, but this isn't about the airline its about the crappy Union that is forced on us.

I want to see UA survive, only because I know they can be a great airline again. The asset base is certainly there, the dedicated employees are there, but there needs to be a management team that knows how to and will be dedicated to running an airline. They had something like 2,000 people focused squarely on the UA/US merger...in the meantime the ship hit a big iceberg. I don't know what Tilton and Brace's long-term intentions are at UA. Assuming they reemerge this fall, I don't think either one of them, along with many of their team, will be there 3 months afteward. My Dad half-jokingly encouraged me to apply for the CEO position in Sept. 2002, because I knew more and cared more about UA than anyone being considered at the time.

Crappy union forced on you??? That's a weak excuse, I'm sorry. It comes back to what I said...in general, if the membership feels they have a crappy union, then they need to work together to change it. If they don't want to do that, then they may as well decertify it, then. A member-supported organization can't be strong if the membership isn't strong, and is only as strong as its weakest member. Make sense? If the membership doesn't like the leadership, they need to find ways to replace those leaders who can do a better job, in the eyes of the membership. I know for a fact that the IAM has a wonderful training facility (assuming it's still there) in Placid Harbor, MD that offers various classes on how to effectively run a local lodge. Perhaps your local should consider sending you and others there. I was there in '88, when my Dad was there.

The IAM and other airline unions really have their backs against the wall nowadays. 10, 15, 20+ years ago, the IAM was very successful in negotiating some great contracts for their members. My Dad and many like him were willing to do what it took to secure those contracts...including being on strike when they didn't really want to, but felt it was necessary, based on what the company offered. Even if it was an expensive contract, it wouldn't have been as great a problem had the company not been so badly mismanaged, which cost the company FAR GREATER than any cadillac union contract ever did. Allegis, Westin Hotels, Avolar, US Airways, need I go on?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 34):
And to anwer your question I am involved with the Union I'm a shop steward. The Meeting we go to are practically meaningless becasue they also represent US so anything we vote on locally is dominated by US interests. I don't get my dues worth from the IAM.

I'm glad to read you're involved...a lot more than most can be bothered with. If the meeting is meaningless and ignores UA issues, then again...get the UA members to the meeting and get them involved. If it's only US issues being discussed, what that tells me is that their members are less apathetic and have elected their people to the local's leadership roles. Why not encourage some UA employees to run, or at the very least, keep pressuring these leaders to discuss UA matters as well? If that doesn't work, why not contact the district or even the grand lodge and advise them that UA issues are being neglected at your local's meetings? Get the district president to attend and let him/her know your concerns. Again, you and other UA employees are paying the dues, so make them work for you.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
soundtrack
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:53 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:28 pm

This may make the IAM doubters a bit more upset....

In college I was good friends with one of the IAM management's sons - they used to use the IAM company Lear and combine going to meetings and play golf on the company. 5050 meeting and then country club golf at the expense of ----

Needless to say - they were always playing golf or going somewhere.

At the time, it didn't hit me until after post-gruduate school and then worked a part time job at TWA for fun and the Union took out a ridiculous fee monthly when I was only making only $5.50 an hour - what the ----! Now I was working for the love of it that Summer at TWA - but realized nothing is worth working for free.

NOW I WOULD HATE TO BE A CAREER WORKER having to face what i have read above.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 35):
Between where the company is at right now vs. the union, I would trust the IAM pension plan any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'm not especially happy with United right now, especially over this pension default and they way it was handled through a back-door/late-night meeting with the PGBC to default on a specific day. I wouldn't trust UA to touch *ANY* retirement plan whatsoever with a 10,000 mile long pole. I strongly suspect that the IAM pension plan is managed by an independent third party (say Fidelity), and that the leadership can't dip in to buy black cadillacs and hotels in Las Vegas. Can I suggest contacting IAM HQ in Upper Marlboro, MD to find out specifics, i.e. who manages it, union involvement, etc.? Union pensions used to be corrupt, but in light of all the mob shit in the '70's, I have to believe that any union-affiliated pension program is HEAVILY audited and there are strict rules that apply. Again, research the plan and how it's run. Someone at HQ can provide you with specific information, answer questions, or direct you to the plan managers who can answer your questions.

Steven this displays a total lack of understanding between what a Pension IS and what a 401k IS and additionally what the Comapny proposed and what the Union got for us.

UA was offering that the replacement retirement plan would be a 401k with matching up to 4%. Smart money would contribute to thier plan up to the 4% to take advantage. The money would go to a 401k with an independent firm, in an account run by the employee. UA could contribute but nothing else. IT WAS FREE MONEY FROM THE COMPANY. Untouched by anyone other than ME and Uncle Sam when I retire. UA goes belly up and the money is mine. Union changes the money is mine. I quit UA THE MONEY IS MINE.

Now lets look at what the UNION got for us. Another Pension. RUN and Administered by the IAM. Is it under funded? probably most Pensions are. If I leave the Union do I keep my pension? Not likely. Does it grow after I leave UA? No. Who contributes to the Pension? Comapnies do what if if UA goes belly up? then the Pension is severly underfunded and guess who then steps in. The PBGC. Pensions are a pyramid scheme. Everything you said you didn't want in your retirement plan in your quote above is exactly what the IAM negotiated into this plan. Its 180 degrees out of phase with what everybody should want. A retirement plan owned and managed by the employee.

"I strongly suspect that the IAM pension plan is managed by an independent third party (say Fidelity), and that the leadership can't dip in to buy black cadillacs and hotels in Las Vegas. " You couldn't be more wrong. Fidelity is exactly who run UA's 401k program. THE IAM is runningthe IAM pension.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
legendDC9
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:24 am

RE: Members Screwed By The IAM Again

Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:15 am

It is amazing to me (as a former IAM member as well) that this union has the nerve to put this kind of offer on the table. Look, we all know that the IAM is a business, not to mention that it is a business that produces nothing. As such it has been losing millions in monthly dues, due to the outsourcing of positions at AS, US, pay cuts at UA and so on. This is just an opportunity for them to get their filthy hands on some more money. Think about it, UA pays the IAM a certain amount every month, for the IAM to keep. They will not be paying pensions right away! This money is going to be spent/used/invested in whatever the union decides and to cover many of the losses they have recently experienced. There is ABSOLUTLY NOTHING that will prevent the union to turn around in 5/10/15 years and say that the pensions were underfunded, declare bankruptcy, or just like UA, get a judge to terminate the plans altogether. In the mean time, the union continues it's lifestyle of the rich and famous on the back of hard working, dedicated employees who have already suffered enough. Unions themselves are a relic of the middle ages as it started out in guilds and such. Just like in many other areas, we are no longer in the middle ages... It's time that everyone opens their eyes and sees that the laws themselves, especialy the much more liberal various state laws, offer more protection to employees than unions and they already take dues from you in the form of taxes. Do not give the IAM this option.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 817Dreamliiner, Amiga500, Andy33, AsiaTravel, D328, dk44, GCT64, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], PanzerPowner, qf789, scbriml, solnabo, StTim, TP777, TUGMASTER and 270 guests