cinek777
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:13 pm

Under Paid Aviation Employees

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:19 pm

What do you think the normal pay is for a contract ramp or refueling agent at O'hare.
I dont know if this is normal at other airports,A ramp agent starts off at $8.75 an hour and a refuler starts off at $9.00 an hour.

I work for a contractor company at O.hare that pays people minimum wages for fueling a aircraft.I think that is a hazardous job (quote me if I'm wrong)

Everybody always tells me you work at the airport you get paid a lot. Ha

My question is to everybody is it just Chicago?
If it's not Boeing dont fly.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Cinek777 (Thread starter):
I work for a contractor company at O.hare that pays people minimum wages for fueling a aircraft.I think that is a hazardous job (quote me if I'm wrong)

It def is a job requiring extra caution.

Quoting Cinek777 (Thread starter):
Everybody always tells me you work at the airport you get paid a lot. Ha

Out here its Supply-Demand.
If there is Demand,Salaries Shoot.If not it drops.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:23 pm

Here in DAB, ramp agents (which are contract for DL) start at $7.00. Fuelers which are employed by the local FBO start at $8.00 if I am not mistaken. People also tell me that I must make a lot and get to fly for free, but they couldn't be any further from the truth. Its also difficult explaining that I sort-of work for DL but not really.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
workbench
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:22 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:22 pm

The wages for ground employees are in line with their skill level. It requires minimal skill and eduacation to load bags, thus paid accordingly. Customer reps are basically servants and should be paid accordingly.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:28 pm

Yet our society keeps duping people into believing that they need a 4 year degree just to get a job, but after spending that $40k most employers who are now mandating a degree for jobs that used to never require one, employers still pay the same paltry wages.

Even at twice the mininum wage one can't live off of that, and certainly can't support more than one on that.

Maybe it's just my new degree in sociology, but the world's full of poop and AC/DC was right - we're on the highway to hell!
 
wunala
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:00 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 3):
The wages for ground employees are in line with their skill level. It requires minimal skill and eduacation to load bags, thus paid accordingly. Customer reps are basically servants and should be paid accordingly.

WTF are you alking about? Basically servents, etc. I see that you are a student, and you must be the only one that does not have a summer/term time job. That aside, I would actually regard filling a plane with fuel as a skilled job, and the crap that those SWA# reps have to put up with, well, the deserve a lot cash, and a lot more respect to you. Grow up.

# Only because I have just watched Airline USA.
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:14 am

I've just left the airline industry. After five years, I never enjoyed calendar holidays off, weekends off, or pay commensurate with similar positions (in skill and education) outside of the industry. While being able to travel worldwide was surely a pleasure, economically; it was a disaster.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:16 am

Ah yes. Workbench again demonstrates his complete lack of understanding at the way the aviation world works and his complete lack of respect for anybody working in the aviation industry. Oh, and his complete disregard of facts. Have YOU ever been a gate agent? Have YOU ever fueled a 250 ton airplane? Have YOU ever pushed back an airplane? Have YOU ever dealt with 250 passengers who all want to do unmentionable things to you because a flight was delayed 45 minutes because the airplane hit a bird when it was coming in for landing and they need to replace the windshield? Have YOU ever loaded bags into an airplane? That's what I thought. You haven't. regardless of the skill level involved in any of these fields, they are still jobs with high levels of responsibility. If you flip a burger at mcdonalds the wrong way, big deal, you give the customer a new burger, assuming they even notice the problem. You fuel an airplane the wrong way? Potentially, you face millions of dollars worth of damage, and could be putting hundreds of lives at risk. All jobs in aviation are jobs filled with responsibility, and should you fail in your duty, the public eye will be upon you.

Anyway, with regards to the actual subject of this topic, I totally agree (haha, as if you hadn't guessed from my message above!). Considering the dangers, responsibilities, and level of customer interaction (sometimes) there is, the fact that so many workers are underpaid is really a shame. At least CSRs (customer service reps) get flying benefits (sometimes), along with all the other airline employees. Most ramp agents don't, unless through the occasional "Available to all airport employees! $500 first class flight to x destination! Book by x date". On top of being payed peanuts (in some of the above cases, $0.50 more than working at KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken)), it's people who view everybody who's a worker as beneath them, their "servants", that make a CSRs (and flight attendants) life miserable.

[Edited 2005-06-21 17:44:47]
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
commavia
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RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:26 am

Bottom line: airline employees are underpaid! This is just reality and it always has been. Airline people have always -- on average -- gotten paid less, IMO, than people doing comporable jobs in other industries. The reason? First of all, travel benefits alone are worth thousands to people who really use them. Being able to fly wherever, whenever, for free (in most cases) is a benefit that many people are willing to prostitute themselves for. Also, say what you will about the airline business -- but when it get's in your blood, it is addicting. People get so hooked on the "allure" of it, the travel benefits, the freedom it gives you, and then they can't give it up.
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 8):
Bottom line: airline employees are underpaid! This is just reality and it always has been. Airline people have always -- on average -- gotten paid less, IMO, than people doing comporable jobs in other industries. The reason? First of all, travel benefits alone are worth thousands to people who really use them. Being able to fly wherever, whenever, for free (in most cases) is a benefit that many people are willing to prostitute themselves for. Also, say what you will about the airline business -- but when it get's in your blood, it is addicting. People get so hooked on the "allure" of it, the travel benefits, the freedom it gives you, and then they can't give it up.

True. But having miniscule pay, a pay cut, benefits that lag the rest of the industry, and schedules that deny the chance to enjoy statutory holidays, it was worth it to leave.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:37 am

Though I don't agree with Workbench, at least he knows enough to use capital letters appropriately making his posts easy to read. As for Bohlman's post....
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
workbench
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:22 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 7):
ah yes. workbench again demonstrates his complete lack of understanding at the way the aviation world works and his complete lack of respect for anybody working in the aviation industry. oh, and his complete disregard of facts. have YOU ever been a gate agent? have YOU ever fueled a 250 ton airplane? have YOU ever pushed back an airplane? have YOU ever dealt with 250 passengers who all want to slit your throat because a flight was delayed 45 minutes because the airplane hit a bird when it was coming in for landing and they need to replace the windshield? have YOU ever loaded bags into an airplane? that's what i thought. you haven't. regardless of the skill level involved in any of these fields, they are still jobs with high levels of responsibility. if you flip a burger at mcdonalds the wrong way, big deal, you give the customer a new burger, assuming they even notice the problem. you fuel an airplane the wrong way? potentially, you face millions of dollars worth of damage, and could be putting hundreds of lives at risk. all jobs in aviation are jobs filled with responsibility, and should you fail in your duty, the public eye will be upon you. grow up and learn to only open your mouth when you know what you're talking about workbench.

A gate agent come on, soon they will be replaced totally by self service devices, there is really no need for them. Whine about abuseive passengers when flights are delayed or cancelled. DONT DELAY OR CANCELL FLIGHTS!. Loading bags, come on I could go down to Home Deopot, pick up a day labouror and pay him $50 for 10 hours work. Any one can throw bags, its no big deal. Fueling an aiplane, hook up the hose and when the meter says full, you unhook, I highly doubt there is a great amount of skill involved.
As far as I am concerned they get travel benefits, pay is in line with the amount of brains it takes to do the job which is not much.
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 am

I'll correct that in the future Bicoastal. I'm just used to writing emails, where it's the standard (and accepted) method of typing.

I'd just like to add, before people start blaming pilots, that not every pilot earns the golden $300k a year salary. When I graduate, I'll be facing (at best) a $19 an hour salary for a maximum of 100 hours a month, and $1.50 an hour for times that I'm not actually flying (sitting at the gate waiting to be pushed back, etc). Pilot salaries are like basebal salaries: skewed on both sides.
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
wunala
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:43 am

Workbench, you are an arrogant twat. Good luck with the future.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Cinek777 (Thread starter):
What do you think the normal pay is for a contract ramp or refueling agent at O'hare.
I dont know if this is normal at other airports,A ramp agent starts off at $8.75 an hour and a refuler starts off at $9.00 an hour.

That's sounds about standard for large airports. At ATL, FL hires ramp and gate at $8.75/hr (If you work the evening shift you get an extra .35 an hour). DL has been hiring ramp and gate @ $9.12/hr. If EV's pay scale is anywhere around what it was five years ago, they start our ramp and gate at around $8.25/hr. Nearly every airline at ATL contracts there fueling out, and there are two companies that do it, ASIG (who bought out AGI last year), and Skytanking (They've been at ATL for a few weeks, as they were awarded the AirTran contract, effective June 1st.). And typically, fuelers make between $8-$9 an hour here (I remember AGI used to pay their fuelers $8 an hour, and many of them left to go work for ASIG or an airline for more money, and from the ad Skytanking ran locally, they're paying $9 an hour.)

Quoting Cinek777 (Thread starter):
I work for a contractor company at O.hare that pays people minimum wages for fueling a aircraft.I think that is a hazardous job (quote me if I'm wrong)

Contactors typically pay their employees lower wages than what the airlines do. Delta Global pays their rampers $7.25 (or was it $7.50, I can't recall) an hour, and they wonder why they have such high turnover (Two supervisors where I used to work at work for them part time for some extra money and for the flight benefits). That kind of money is fine if you're young, still living at home and have no bills to speak of. When I was making $8.85 an hour working at AirTran (When I worked there, starting pay was $8.50 and I worked evening shift and got the .35 shift differential), I was barely getting by after my bills (Rent, car note, insurance). At ASA, I was able to work enough overtime to actually have some extra cash.

Quoting Cinek777 (Thread starter):
My question is to everybody is it just Chicago?

Not at all. Some airlines actually pay some of their outstations more than their hubs because of the cost of living in those cities is so high. Examples like New York City and Boston.
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:47 am

Airline are underpaid unless you are a Senior VP or a 25 year captain!
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 3):
The wages for ground employees are in line with their skill level. It requires minimal skill and eduacation to load bags, thus paid accordingly. Customer reps are basically servants and should be paid accordingly.

Pardon? In my mind being paid accordingly ought to include combat pay for CSA's for all the crap they have to put up with.

As for minimal skill of rampers, you might want to ask Alaska Airlines in Seattle how much education and skill is required to load bags. Their operations have been a mess for the past month because they brought in cold 400 people at $8 an hour to load bags. As for what happens when their operations do eventually stabilize, you can expect to see thefts from checked baggage start to increase. Not to mention it is demanding, physical work that leads to injuries and chronic problems.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
Yet our society keeps duping people into believing that they need a 4 year degree just to get a job, but after spending that $40k most employers who are now mandating a degree for jobs that used to never require one, employers still pay the same paltry wages.

This is not strictly true. The minimum requirement for a lot of jobs is a high school diploma. Some vocational training is also usually requred, and there are indeed jobs out there that pay more than Wal-Mart wages. In fairness, though, companies view their unskilled employees often times as a soft option when time comes to cut costs, so they cut as far back as they think the market will bear. The unions, who were meant to protect people from this type of exploitation, have become too self serving and complacent to have any effect, and the end result is everyone shakes their heads and wonders why customer service has gone down the tubes. It's not very PC but it's true: Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
and AC/DC was right - we're on the highway to hell!

More literally true than you may imagine. Back to the subject at hand, could it be that low payscales and undeserved contempt (is it actually envy?) that airline employees endure from not only customers with freeloader mindsets but also rapacious-minded, self-serving management are the leading reasons that airline service continues move along the highway toward hell at a rapaid pace? Where service is becoming "everyday from hell" rather than a "summer from hell."

Quoting Workbench (Reply 3):
The wages for ground employees are in line with their skill level. It requires minimal skill and eduacation to load bags, thus paid accordingly. Customer reps are basically servants and should be paid accordingly.

One more reason airline service has taken a dive. Skilled workers are being progressively replaced by truly unskilled workers making defacto minimum wage who you wishfully imagine to be equally capable of maintaining acceptable service levels.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
Yet our society keeps duping people into believing that they need a 4 year degree just to get a job, but after spending that $40k most employers who are now mandating a degree for jobs that used to never require one, employers still pay the same paltry wages.

I agree on this point totally. I think the college is the biggest scam going right now in the US. Most people go and learn little to nothing there, spend most of their time avoiding class, drinking, screwing, and running up debt, then get out with nothing to show for it, since now everyone and their brother has a worthless degree. It's an expensive replacement for the old high school degree, which used to mean something before automatic advancement and pity diplomas.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
aa777flyer
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:57 am

Workbench, it is jackasses like you that make our jobs very unpleasant at times. One of these days an airline employee will make you wish you never set foot on a airplane again.
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):
So this agent could not follow a simple instruction from a customer, and she thinks she is worth $25.00/hr. NO WAY.

So, are you making a broad conclusion based on one experience? Or at the end of the day was your attitude to blame for the problem? Think about it.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):

Wow, I couldn't help but laughing! Maybe you should stop demanding things on daddy's miles, and ask politely. Why should you get the extra room? After all, you're flying for free on perks that the airline has provided for you. Why shouldn't somebody else get the extra room? And as for daddy calling up and complaining for you, well, I think most people will have the same chuckle-filled reaction that I did...
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
wunala
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):
I demanded that she block the seat next to me (I was in 8F, so 8E should have been blocked.) I asked this so I could have more room. Since I was traveling on an Executive Platinums miles, it should be no problem. Now if they had sold EVERY SEAT on the plane I could understand someone sitting there. But imagine how pissed I was when not only did they put someone next to me, but an employee flying for FREE. An off duty employee flying for free infringed on my comfort. That is BS. As far as I am concerned employees flying for free should be regulated to the cargo hold, and not infringing on comfort of paying passengers.
So this agent could not follow a simple instruction from a customer, and she thinks she is worth $25.00/hr. NO WAY. When I arrived in ORD, my dad called the Executive desk and got me a free upgrade for the rest of the trip.

So you demanded the seat to be kept free and then you suggest it was a simple request. You really are a fuk wit. I hope I never meet you on a flight, no update, meet you ever, you make wanting to bitch slap someone a reality. Remember, your dad may be a Exec member, you are not. You have as much right to the see as the emplyee beside you. I hope you end up working for in an industry paying feck all, because you were so up your own arse, you forgot to look at the blackboard in school.

[Edited 2005-06-21 18:13:48]
 
havaloc
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:45 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:13 am

No one forces people to take these jobs if they don't want them. If you think the pay is too low, don't work there. Simple.
DC-9
 
RaginMav
Posts: 335
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 5:22 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Havaloc (Reply 24):
No one forces people to take these jobs if they don't want them. If you think the pay is too low, don't work there. Simple

No, but if you want to move ahead in the industry, you have to start somewhere

Oh yeah, Workbench, that was so nice of your daddy to hold your hand, and make sure your comfort wasn't compromised. Anyone with half a nut could have taken care of that themselves...
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting Havaloc (Reply 24):

Not everybody has the option to choose an ideal job. If an airline job opens up, and somebody's looking for work, they may HAVE to take the job.
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:17 am

Workbench... no wonder your beloved legacy airline is in deep trouble. What you cannot begin to imagine -- no matter how intelligent you may be in your own mind -- is the untold million$$$ squandered by the folly of your beloved legacy and others like it in pandering to the type of BS from customers like you and your daddy, who they have conditioned to think like freeloader inmates who are allowed to run the prison.

Had you put your "it's all about me -- and me alone" attitude on display at Southwest, and then complained to no one less than Herb Kelleher, demanding a personal response, you would have received one that would go something like "we will miss having you as a customer." No wonder WN is consistently profitable while the red ink flows profusely at your beloved legacy who is obsessed with appeasing BS demands from 10s of 1000s of customers who the legacies have conditioned to think like you and your daddy.
 
workbench
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:22 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Wunala (Reply 23):
I hope you end up working for in an industry paying feck all, because you were so up your own arse, you forgot to look at the blackboard in school.

Well since next year I will start law school, and since I will eventually I will take over my dads law office, I am pretty sure you will always wind up being a low paid airline employee. And I will always be served by you. Hey my shoes need shining! LOL!
 
AeroVodochody
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 11):
DONT DELAY OR CANCELL FLIGHTS!.

Jeez... that has to be the stupid statement of the week congrats  Yeah sure
But Ok, since you're clearly the expert here, how exactly do you propose they do that?? The next time the aircraft cracks a windshield because of a bird, blows a tyre, or has to be De-Iced, should they just let it take off without any type of maintenance and put hundreds of lives at risk because a few stupid passengers who have no clue whats going on complain? Or if the airport is buried under 5ft. of snow and ice in the middle of a heavy blizzard? No problem right? An aircraft can easily takeoff in several feet of snow without the pilot even seeing the runway or any of the taxiways right?

Quoting Workbench (Reply 11):
Fueling an aiplane, hook up the hose and when the meter says full, you unhook, I highly doubt there is a great amount of skill involved.

Have you ever even seen an aircraft being refueled? I'd like to see you try it just once.... without causing any damage to the A/C, but if you do, its ok, it'll take off anyway, just so the pax wont whine about delays...
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
AeroVodochody
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):
As far as I am concerned employees flying for free should be regulated to the cargo hold, and not infringing on comfort of paying passengers.

Oh yeah, since your a paying customer....... and BTW the only seat you had the right to, was the one on your ticket not the one next to it, if you want more room, ask daddy to buy you a whole row....
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
wunala
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 28):
Well since next year I will start law school, and since I will eventually I will take over my dads law office, I am pretty sure you will always wind up being a low paid airline employee. And I will always be served by you. Hey my shoes need shining! LOL!

Before I sign off for the night, dickhead, I do not work for an airline, and I DO NOT work for you. I would be very proud to work for my national carrier, if only to get you into cargo every time.

Did daddy pay you into law school, did he know people because you didn't quite get the grade? I suppose it is the only way you can call yourself employed, even your father cannot reject you.
 
workbench
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:22 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting AeroVodochody (Reply 29):
Jeez... that has to be the stupid statement of the week congrats
But Ok, since you're clearly the expert here, how exactly do you propose they do that?? The next time the aircraft cracks a windshield because of a bird, blows a tyre, or has to be De-Iced, should they just let it take off without any type of maintenance and put hundreds of lives at risk because a few stupid passengers who have no clue whats going on complain? Or if the airport is buried under 5ft. of snow and ice in the middle of a heavy blizzard? No problem right? An aircraft can easily takeoff in several feet of snow without the pilot even seeing the runway or any of the taxiways right?

Ever heard of the spare airplane that is ready to go. As far as wheather, I was not talking about that. I was talking about all the BS that the airlines do have control over, and they continually LIE about it to the customers.
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):
You cant be successful in life if you dont think your better than everyone else. So yes I am arrogant. But for the most part I am correct. Last year when I was flying on my dads miles to Boston, I asked the gate agent if the flight was totally full, she said no. I demanded that she block the seat next to me (I was in 8F, so 8E should have been blocked.) I asked this so I could have more room. Since I was traveling on an Executive Platinums miles, it should be no problem. Now if they had sold EVERY SEAT on the plane I could understand someone sitting there. But imagine how pissed I was when not only did they put someone next to me, but an employee flying for FREE. An off duty employee flying for free infringed on my comfort. That is BS. As far as I am concerned employees flying for free should be regulated to the cargo hold, and not infringing on comfort of paying passengers.
So this agent could not follow a simple instruction from a customer, and she thinks she is worth $25.00/hr. NO WAY. When I arrived in ORD, my dad called the Executive desk and got me a free upgrade for the rest of the trip.

This post has to be a joke mocking some of the other "my daddy" posts that have occasionally popped up here.

...at least, I hope so?  worried 

If nothing else, it was good for a laugh!
We can agree to disagree.
 
Greyhound
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:32 am

Quoting Wunala (Reply 23):
You have as much right to the see as the emplyee beside you

Actually the employee has more of a right. At least the employee worked for their seat. Didn't notice them running off to daddy for his miles. And at the very least, him and the employee he loathes are pretty much the same.
Employee: Flies for free because of company benefit. According to Workbench, Didn't work for that seat.
Workbench: Flies for free on daddy's miles, doesn't pay a single dime, did not work for seat.

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):
You cant be successful in life if you dont think your better than everyone else.

Strange... I thought you couldn't be successful in life if you weren't willing to work with everyone else and look at other's needs instead of just your own, however long that look is.

Quoting Wunala (Reply 23):
you make wanting to bitch slap someone a reality.

Oy, I think I just shat myself reading that one. Seriously though, seeing a username like Workbench and then reading how he uses someone else's miles and demands creature comforts that he didn't work for and doesn't deserve... does make the name seem more of an oxymoron.

[Edited 2005-06-21 18:36:46]
29th, Let's Go!
 
wunala
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 34):
Quoting Wunala (Reply 23):
You have as much right to the see as the emplyee beside you

Actually the employee has more of a right.

I didn't mean it to sound like it as contest. In law, something Workbench may read about, they both have the same type of right, albeit, in a different capacity. But employees should be over Workbench, without a question. Who do I need to pay to get a law passed?
 
Greyhound
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:37 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Wunala (Reply 35):
I didn't mean it to sound like it as contest.

I didn't think you meant it as a contest. It was just my opinion after all.

Quoting Wunala (Reply 35):
But employees should be over Workbench, without a question.

No argument there.
29th, Let's Go!
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
I agree on this point totally. I think the college is the biggest scam going right now in the US. Most people go and learn little to nothing there, spend most of their time avoiding class, drinking, screwing, and running up debt, then get out with nothing to show for it, since now everyone and their brother has a worthless degree. It's an expensive replacement for the old high school degree, which used to mean something before automatic advancement and pity diplomas.

Very well said! In many respects, many college degrees of today are not as valid an indicator of a person's qualifications as a high school degree was in the day when the latter actually had to be earned. Though neither type of degree has ever been an indicator of a person's character, in the bygone era, having a degree was at least reasonably valid as proof that the person holding a degree was reasonably well-disciplined, and not a quitter.

On the lighter -- perhaps also realistic -- side... The name Menzies (employer of the ramper scabs who AS hired at SEA) is very close to Menza, an organization for geniuses. When I heard the name Menzies, and found out what they do, my first thought was to make a parallel: could it be that your typical Menzies ramper scab is someone who has thrown $250,000 at a college education -- so they can earn $8.00/hour (and virtually 0 benefits) working nights, weekends and holidays for an airline?
 
AeroVodochody
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 32):
Ever heard of the spare airplane that is ready to go.

Yes I have, but it still takes time to get one, and I'm pretty sure most if not all airlines, would go bankrupt if they had to keep two aircraft ready for one flight at once, especially in the current state of the industry, either that or they'd have to raise ticket prices and make it more expensive for you and your daddy to fly.

Quoting Workbench (Reply 32):
I was talking about all the BS that the airlines do have control over, and they continually LIE about it to the customers.

You think airlines have control over birdstrikes and other accidents? Or if an airplane needs to be de-iced before takeoff?
Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 37):
many college degrees of today are not as valid an indicator of a person's qualifications as a high school degree was in the day when the latter actually had to be earned.

At the end of the day education does not equate to intelligence. That is not necessarily what a university education is all about. It is about giving one the tools necessary to think, to ask questions about the world around you, and to prepare you for a lifetime of learning how to do the latter. It also serves the function of training and socializing one into a profession.

It really does not matter whether or not you can recite Kant's Categorical Imperative, or can apply Descarte's first philosophy. It is about developing one's innate intelligence to understand the world around you and in some way want to make it a better place.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 32):
Ever heard of the spare airplane that is ready to go. As far as wheather, I was not talking about that. I was talking about all the BS that the airlines do have control over, and they continually LIE about it to the customers.

Yes, have you ever heard of the spare $100million airplane lying around, so that a 15 minute delay can be avoided every once in a while? I guess they don't teach you in law school that it's spelled "weather" not "wheather", but that's besides the point. What's this about things that airlines have control over? An airline controls whether it hits birds in the sky? Or whether a tire blows on landing? If you're talking about other things, what do you think they're doing, sitting in their offices saying "Muahahahaha! We shall delay workbench's flight today simply because we can!" As for airline employees lying about it, well, I'm glad you a) know more than they do about the situation (because you're skilled, and they're not. They're merely peons there to serve you) and b) WANT to know what the detailed technical problem is. Do you care that it's the APU that's malfunctioning, or do you just want to hear that the flight is being delayed due to technical problems. Another thing is that sometimes the actual airline employees are not told why the delay is happening. Management gets a call saying that flight xxx is delayed due to weather, only tells a CSR that it's delayed, placate the passengers.

Quoting Wukka (Reply 33):
This post has to be a joke mocking some of the other "my daddy" posts that have occasionally popped up here.

If only it were true! Unfortunately, the daddy jokes started because of this!
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 28):
Well since next year I will start law school, and since I will eventually I will take over my dads law office

And may I remind you (probably not necessary, since you know everything) that 80% of family businesses fail within 5 years after being handed to the next generation? Hate to sound pessimistic, but I'm not betting that you will beat the odds. Sure, your firm (if it's even for real) may survive for more than 5 years, but it will be because you daddy is still running it; but once daddy is gone -- and no longer around to bail you out -- well, who ya' gonna' call?
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:56 am

See, what I always think is if you weren't, say, a flight attendant, what would you be? A cashier at Macy's? A customer service agent at Hertz? A front desk clerk at a Marriott? Not that there is anything wrong with these jobs at all.

Flight attendants receive horrible pay. But if you are starting an airline and need 50 flight attendants, you can expect 300 to 500 applications. So at the minimum, six people are lining up for one job. And yes, at some airlines they will make $12,000 their first year. And maybe $20,000 when they reach the top. But you will always find people who want to be flight attendants. And most people could be flight attendants. Maybe not excellent flight attendants, but they could fulfill all FAA requirements. I mean you have to be between 5'2" and 6'0" (that's probably 80% of the population), have no criminal record, be drug free and have a high school diploma. How many people over 19 fit these requirements? Many. So why should the airlines pay $21.75 to start and $55.00 at the top when they can get good flight attendants for $17.80 to start at maybe $38.50 at the top?

Same goes with CSRs and ramp agents. What special skills do they have? They went to training school for five weeks, learned SABRE commands, customer service skills, ticketing policies, how to load the bags, doing load and balance checks, etc. But they themselves don't have any special skills.

So I think the only career you can have in the airlines anymore is a pilot or management. Pilots do deserve $200k a year. They did take it upon themselves to get trained, they went to college to study for this field. Flight attendants don't do that, because a degree in Women's Studies doesn't make them a better flight attendant. Management deserves $200k a year and their BMW 7 Series. They worked hard to get to the top and if they make a wrong decision, they get fired.

So like I said, I think we are starting to see CSRs become college kids that use the free tickets to get to Cancun on spring break, flight attendants become college graduates who want to take "time off" for two or three years before they start their career and fifty something moms who want to some extra money and tickets now that their kids are gone.

Please, I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I'm always respectful to airline (and all other) employees. I do say "Good morning," "please," and "thank you." I also always thank who ever is standing near the cabin door, be it some flight attendants or some of the flight crew, for getting me there safe and sound. And I do feel for the flight attendant who just did five legs in one day and has
$129 to show for it.

AAndrew

P.S. Workbench, if you are going to become such a good lawyer, you should learn how to use "Spell Check" and be a little less abrasive and arrogant. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
 
qantas777
Posts: 390
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 7:52 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:58 am

workbench is a funny taint. Some stuff is true said by the young lad. I mean really, skill level required from csr and ramp is very little, thus, one should get paid little. I did it and accepted the fact that I would get paid crap. But the agents really put up with a lot of unrest and I wish they would get paid more.

Anyway, this industry sucks!
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 42):
Flight attendants don't do that, because a degree in Women's Studies doesn't make them a better flight attendant.

I disagree. University education is not primarily about teaching a skill, though that may be one reason you go there. On the other hand, it may give one insights in dealing with the public that go beyond personal experience.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
BWI757
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:58 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 28):
Well since next year I will start law school, and since I will eventually I will take over my dads law office, I am pretty sure you will always wind up being a low paid airline employee. And I will always be served by you. Hey my shoes need shining! LOL!

Why should they serve you? Hell no! With your brains and your daddy you really should go to http://www.airbus.com and place a 380 VIP order NOW! You'll never ever,ever, ever have to deal with those snot-nosed pesky CSA's ever again! Besides, with all your vast experience being doled out daily on a-net.com, you most certainly can manage this aircraft with no problems!

On, and did you know that you can find real cheap flight attendants, ramp handlers and fuelers here, maybe even a tax deduction!
http://www.doc.wa.gov/facilities/PENINSULAWRdescription.htm

Now you need some some pilots! Well, since you pissed off most of them in this forum, you may have a hard time finding one.

And we really would not be interested in the reg number.

Good luck, my arrogant twat!

Quoting Wunala (Reply 23):
hope I never meet you on a flight, no update, meet you ever, you make wanting to bitch slap someone a reality

LOL! A certain scene in Airplane! comes to mind....  Smile

BWI757
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
Bohlman
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:52 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 45):
Quoting Wunala (Reply 23):
hope I never meet you on a flight, no update, meet you ever, you make wanting to bitch slap someone a reality

LOL! A certain scene in Airplane! comes to mind....

Haha, I'd forgotten that scene completely! I remember watching that for the first time (also in the lobby, where he beats up the environmentalists), and barely being able to breath I was laughing so hard!
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
ntspelich
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:35 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:37 am

Would I like to make more money? Sure, but am I doing (I feel) quite good for myself making more upwards of $60,000 this year doing a job that I love. Until you've stood there next to a 777 taxiing by or towed plane around the airport at 2:30AM you haven't lived, in my opinion. The money's out there, you just have to work for it; which may mean more than 40 hours/week. But, like I said, if it's something you love, you don't even notice the hours.

Plus, flying for free and the savings that you get when travelling as an airline employee do help quite a bit.

NTS
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 28):
Well since next year I will start law school, and since I will eventually I will take over my dads law office, I am pretty sure you will always wind up being a low paid airline employee. And I will always be served by you. Hey my shoes need shining! LOL!

Just what this world needs, another arrogant lawyer. You wonder why people tell lawyer jokes? It's because of smug jerks like you. I swear that half of the "lawyers" and future lawyers/wannabe lawyers on this site are arrogant pricks.

If you don't like having to sit next to someone from the unclean masses, maybe you should charter a private jet. Since daddy has a law firm, you could probably afford to charter one from NetJets or Delta AirElite.

Quoting Workbench (Reply 18):
That is BS. As far as I am concerned employees flying for free should be regulated to the cargo hold, and not infringing on comfort of paying passengers.

You wouldn't last a day on the frontlines, you'd probably run for the door after the first push (I've seen it happen many times on a newbie's first day on the ramp. I remember one training class where half the class had quit the first week they were on the ramp). Those non-rev benefits make the hours sweating in a bin during the summer, freezing our asses off in the winter, and getting soaked while working in the rain or snow seem worth it. And unless the non-rev told you they were flying for free (which they're really not supposed todo) or were in uniform, how did you know they were non-revs? The only way you could have had that seat blocked off would be if you bought it, and since you were using daddy's miles, you have no right to bitch and moan and demand things.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 16):
It's not very PC but it's true: Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

Sounds like an advertisement for the LCC's!  Smile Have you ever seen an episode of AIRLINE on A&E? I can't believe Southwest still allows that show to be aired.

Quoting Workbench (Reply 28):
Well since next year I will start law school, and since I will eventually I will take over my dads law office, I am pretty sure you will always wind up being a low paid airline employee. And I will always be served by you. Hey my shoes need shining! LOL!

Ahh, that explains so much! Pompous lawyers who think they are the only ones who can read plain English and interpret the laws - and what's with this "Your Honor" BS in the courtrooms - I thought the Monarchy died ages ago?!

The United States needs a 5 year moratorium on Law School, seriously - our country is so overfilled of unscrupulous, greedy lawyers and politicians, most of whom are both - the French have it right in this regard in their strong distaste for lawyers and frivolous lawsuits!
 
ntspelich
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:35 am

RE: Under Paid Aviation Employees

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:02 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 3):
The wages for ground employees are in line with their skill level. It requires minimal skill and eduacation to load bags, thus paid accordingly. Customer reps are basically servants and should be paid accordingly

OK, so I guess that making sure that the a/c is loaded correctly so that it can, say, rotate isn't important. The vast majority of us all take our jobs very seriously- the biggest part of that being the safety of our customers and coworkers on those flights. Contrary to popular belief, you're not just throwing bags into the cargo bins, they have to be distributed a certain way. We're not just staring up into the cabin, we're actually doing walk arounds for your safety.

And, I guess that all of the money that I spent on my college education was in vain since I'm out there on the ramp, doing whatever needs to be done so that my company can be profitable. I think that you owe a lot of folks an apology, but that'd probably be beneath you.

NTS
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?