luisde8cd
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Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:38 pm

Hey all,

I was wondering if there is a country that allows a foreign airline to operate domestic flights inside it... anyone knows?

Thanks,
Luis
 
kl911
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:42 pm

In all european union countries it's allowed for carriers from other member states. example Ryanair, easyjet etc etc. KLM can fly CDG-MRS if they want.

KL911
 
jamman
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:43 pm

Here's another in the UK/EU.
VLM (Belgum based) operates Liverpool to London City.

[Edited 2005-06-21 13:44:09]
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monteycarlos
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:45 pm

Australia and New Zealand have an open skies agreement whereby any of the airlines within each country can run domestically in the other... I think thats the case or it might be airline specific but there is certainly QF operating domestically in New Zealand as a result of this...
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flyAUA
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:58 pm

Yes cabotage exists in many places... If I remember correctly from university it was the 7th or 8th "freedom of the air". Here are some examples:

-Easyjet from Paris CDG <-> Nice
-Ryanair from Rome <-> Venice
-AirBerlin from Madrid <-> Mallorca
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DLPMMM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:05 pm

I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

Exactly I forgot to say in the thread starter that the EU doesn't count  Smile
 
geoffm
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:17 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

According to your very own DOT, cabotage is defined thus:
" Airline cabotage is the carriage of air traffic that originates and terminates within the boundaries of a given country by an air carrier of another country"

The EU consists of numerous countries, thus cabotage is correct.

Geoff M.
 
ZRH
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 6):
Exactly I forgot to say in the thread starter that the EU doesn't count

Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.
 
flyAUA
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:31 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I would not call intra EU flights by EU carriers cabotage. The EU is a single market now when it comes to air traffic.

It is since Europe is not a COUNTRY, but a UNION. Otherwise these airlines would not have had to get permission for operation flights on a cabotage-basis.
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ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:33 pm

There are flights operated between Trinidad and Tobago (same country) by LIAT and Caribbean Star, both based overseas.

Pan Am used to fly intra-German flights until they went under.

I believe the HNL-GUM CO Islandhopper has at least two stops in the Federated States of Micronesia, which should qualify as cabotage as Micronesia is independent enough to be a UN member.

And if you really want to get legalistic, I suppose HKG-TPE by a foreign carrier would sort-of qualify as cabotage.

And then there's of course DUB-SNN, with full cabotage rights for US airlines.

[Edited 2005-06-21 14:37:58]
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.

I know, what I meant was that I already knew that in the EU there's cabotage. Just wanted to know other parts of the world aside from the EU where cabotage takes place
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:57 pm

If you want to get technical, AA Eagle's SJU-MAZ and STT-STX qualify. Puerto Rico and the USVI are separate countries, not US states...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 10):
There are flights operated between Trinidad and Tobago (same country) by LIAT and Caribbean Star, both based overseas.

Pan Am used to fly intra-German flights until they went under.

And then there's of course DUB-SNN, with full cabotage rights for US airlines.

[Edited 2005-06-21 14:37:58]

DUB-SNN applies, OK, but the PanAm, BEA and AF operations in Germany do not qualify as cabotage since the three countries were the sovereign powers in Berlin up until 1990 and traffic rights to and from this city could only be granted with their approval. Besides overflying rights in East Germany. Before LH started in Germany and some years thereafter, KL, SK, SR, SN enjoyed domestic services in Germany.

The question put here is a very good one and especially after the EU common market very difficult to answer, Pre-common market I remember that GVA/ZRH was an "open" route,operated by several airlines like TP, AT and others. AY has a flight STO-OSL which was then cabotage because of the SAS three country treaty.

Not really cabotage, but something close, was the right to carry passengers between (for isntance) OSA-TYO, provided the passengers had tickets beyond TYO to FRA or wherever and stayed just for a stop-over.
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DLPMMM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.

The EU does not count since the EU courts promulgated that the individual member bilateral are null and void and the US must negotiate a new comprehensive bi-lateral with the EU. These negotiations have been ongoing for an extended period due to the refusal of the UK to forego the terms of Bermuda II, the insistance of the EU negotiators on cabotage within the US for EU airlines, and the removal of foreign ownership restrictions for US airlines.
 
jgold47
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:18 pm

Mabyee I missed this, but dosent northwest fly intra asian?
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:21 pm

Quoting Jgold47 (Reply 15):
Mabyee I missed this, but dosent northwest fly intra asian?

Yes, but not intra Japan. These are 5th freedom rights to fly from their NRT hub to other asian countries.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:25 pm

Does SQ have the rights to operate domestically in Australia?

I heard they did but haven't seen the evidence....
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PanHAM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:38 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 14):
Quoting ZRH (Reply 8):
Why does the EU not count. These are still independent countries. The US for example does not regard the EU as a single market. They still have agreements with each country. If you wanted an other example for cabotage then you could take the EU countries and Switzerland, there the cabotage is allowed.

The EU does not count since the EU courts promulgated that the individual member bilateral are null and void and the US must negotiate a new comprehensive bi-lateral with the EU. These negotiations have been ongoing for an extended period due to the refusal of the UK to forego the terms of Bermuda II, the insistance of the EU negotiators on cabotage within the US for EU airlines, and the removal of foreign ownership restrictions for US airlines.

Technically you are right until the traffic rights with third countries are negotiated by Brussels only and no longer by the member states.

I'd call this a grey area right now, because we have the interesting fact that countries which are associated or have agreements with the EU but are not members, enjoy the same freedom as member countries. These are Switzerland, Iceland and Norway. Leave Norway as member in SAS aside, LX does not operate any cabotage AFAIK right now, that leaves Iceland which operates substantial cabotage throught their several supplemental carriers like Air Atlanta, also under own flight numbers.

I would still bot call the Air Berlin services from their PMI hub to various destinations in Spain cabotage.
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CHI787ORD
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:01 am

Do the US and Canada have Cabotage rights?
 
ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:09 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 19):
Do the US and Canada have Cabotage rights?

No, though AC would really love to get in on the action south of the border.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:24 am

wouldn't LAN (Argentina) count?
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gigneil
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 12):
Puerto Rico and the USVI are separate countries, not US states...

They are NOT separate countries.

N
 
ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 21):
wouldn't LAN (Argentina) count?

LAN (Argentina) would not be covered under cabotage rights. Even though LAN (Argentina) is owned by a foreign entity, it is legally registered as an Argentine carrier, and derives its rights from being a local carrier of sorts. So this case has to do with foreign ownership laws and not cabotage.
 
squared
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 20):
No, though AC would really love to get in on the action south of the border.

Yes, AC and the Canadian government has pushed heavily for cabotage rights in the USA, with reciprocal rights for US carriers. AC would likely benefit the most of any carrier in the US and Canada, as it has relatively large fleet, (easier to shift compared to WS) and a lower cost base than US legacies. However, given the current market situation in the US, this is unlikely to come into fruition in the near future.

I do think it would interesting to board an Air Canada flight from JFK-LAX, though.  Smile

SQuared
 
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:43 am

Bit extreme as an example but Air WALES flies Plymouth to Liverpool.
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ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:47 am

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 25):
Bit extreme as an example but Air WALES flies Plymouth to Liverpool

Ok, last time I checked, Wales and England were under the same sovereignty, that of the United Kingdom. Almost like saying Texas based American Airlines' intra-California flights are cabotage... which is really stretching it.
 
yeggerman
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting SQuared (Reply 24):
AC would likely benefit the most of any carrier in the US and Canada, as it has relatively large fleet, (easier to shift compared to WS) and a lower cost base than US legacies.

I think they would to a degree, in the same sense though I think it would hurt the Canadian Airlines more than anything. A US carrier would start in lets say SEA, fuel up (cheaper to fuel in US than CAN becuase of all the taxes we have on our fuel) fly to YVR and do a YVR-YYZ route, one of the best ones in Canada (which they could under cut fares, becuase of cheaper fuel), then go from YYZ to lets say DET fuel up again in the US and then do a return flight. I think something like this might not kill AC, it would hurt them, but it would kill WS, C6, Harmony, which really wouldn't be good for the economy at all.

Of course AC could do the same in the US and make money there, but the other Canadian carriers I don't think have enough fleet capcity to do the same, and in return would suffer.
"All great things must come to an end"
 
ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting Yeggerman (Reply 27):
cheaper to fuel in US than CAN becuase of all the taxes we have on our fuel

I thought there was an international treaty that aviation fuel is not to be taxed... or does that apply to international flights only.

Besides, what would prevent AC from flying a plane BOS-YYZ-YVR-SEA (different flight numbers) and fueling up in the states?
 
deltairlines
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:02 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 28):
Besides, what would prevent AC from flying a plane BOS-YYZ-YVR-SEA (different flight numbers) and fueling up in the states?

US law prohibits a foreign airline carrying passengers between two domestic points. For example, from my place here in BOS, if I wanted to fly to SEA, it would make sense to maybe consider a connection at YYZ on Air Canada. However, you can't book this on the same PNR, as that would be a foreign carrier transporting a domestic passenger in the United States (as the O&D traffic would be between BOS and SEA). However, if you wanted to book BOS-YYZ and then YYZ-SEA under seperate PNRs, you could possibly get away with that (although if caught, I believe AC can still be fined).

Jeff
 
ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:08 am

DeltAirlines... yeah, I know about the two domestic points rule. I was responding to Yeggerman's comment about buying the fuel in the states.
 
geoffm
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 14):
The EU does not count since the EU courts promulgated that the individual member bilateral are null and void and the US must negotiate a new comprehensive bi-lateral with the EU. These negotiations have been ongoing for an extended period due to the refusal of the UK to forego the terms of Bermuda II, the insistance of the EU negotiators on cabotage within the US for EU airlines, and the removal of foreign ownership restrictions for US airlines.

Oh, so you disagree with the EU Parliament? Interesting.

http://www.europarl.eu.int/factsheets/4_5_5_en.htm

The eighth freedom, known as 'cabotage', was gained when the single market in air transport finally came into force on 1 July 1997, at the end of a long process of liberalisation culminating in three measures adopted on 23 July 1992.

So they still call it cabotage...

Geoff M.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:42 am

Since even they call the EU a "single market in air transport", no I would not, but then we are getting into semantics.
 
yeggerman
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 28):
I thought there was an international treaty that aviation fuel is not to be taxed... or does that apply to international flights only.

From my understanding, the aviation fuel in Canada is taxed just like everything else, someone could correct me if I am wrong.

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 28):
Besides, what would prevent AC from flying a plane BOS-YYZ-YVR-SEA (different flight numbers) and fueling up in the states?

As I stated in the bottom of my last post, nothing is stopping AC from doing the exact same thing, what my point was referring to was more of the smaller carriers in Canada, such as C6, WS, Harmony, all of them would not have the fleet capcity to do the same as AC in turns hurting the Canadian airline industry.
"All great things must come to an end"
 
MAH4546
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 12):
If you want to get technical, AA Eagle's SJU-MAZ and STT-STX qualify. Puerto Rico and the USVI are separate countries, not US states...

They are not seperate countries, they are part of the US. Any US airline can fly these routes, and a foreigh airline must apply with the US DOT to fly to STT or SJU. There is no cabatoge involved in these routes. And, besides, American Eagle doesn't fly either anymore.

The Bahamas is a country that allows cabatoge. Chalk's Ocean Airways has cabatoge rights, but they don't use them right now. I remember flying PID-NSB about three years ago. On the PID-NSB segment, is was my family and two locals that got off in Bimini.
a.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 10):
And then there's of course DUB-SNN, with full cabotage rights for US airlines.

I've never been able to find that US carriers can or will sell you a ticket between DUB and SNN. What does an airline such as Delta charge for a single or return ticket on this route?
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ahlfors
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
I've never been able to find that US carriers can or will sell you a ticket between DUB and SNN. What does an airline such as Delta charge for a single or return ticket on this route?

It's more a question of whether they will sell you a ticket as opposed to whether they're allowed to, which they are.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:45 am

The history of U.S. access to Irish airports is best summarized in the following PDF:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/...ontributions/aerrianta-shannon.pdf

• In the original U.S./Ireland Bilateral Air Services Agreement of 1945, Shannon was designated as the sole gateway for transatlantic air service to and from Ireland; Boston, Chicago, N.Y. were the designated gateways for Irish airlines.
• In 1973 the Bilateral was amended to permit a single U.S. airline to continue beyond Shannon to Dublin.
• A further amendment in 1990 added Los Angeles as an additional gateway for Irish carriers and additional U.S. airlines were granted Dublin access via Shannon.
• In 1993 direct flights by both Irish and U.S. airlines to Dublin were permitted on the basis of a requirement to serve Shannon with equal frequency.

I've never seen the so-called Shannon Stopover allow domestic service by U.S. airlines between Dublin and Shannon. Perhaps you have another source?

Cheers.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 34):
They are not seperate countries, they are part of the US. Any US airline can fly these routes, and a foreigh airline must apply with the US DOT to fly to STT or SJU. There is no cabatoge involved in these routes. And, besides, American Eagle doesn't fly either anymore.

I guess I got clocked.  Smile I know they aren't states but commonwealth/territories and thought they were technically outside the USA. Thanks for the clarification.
 
Boeing727flyer
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:01 am

Varig used to operate LHR-CPH using a MD-11 and Thai operated AMS-ZRH also with MD-11. Then Air Seychelles operated B707 FRA-LGW.
Hail the mighty Boeing 727
 
N1120A
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 10):
Pan Am used to fly intra-German flights until they went under.

Actually, Lufthansa took over intra-German flights in 1990, a year before PA went under

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
but the PanAm, BEA and AF operations in Germany do not qualify as cabotage since the three countries were the sovereign powers in Berlin up until 1990 and traffic rights to and from this city could only be granted with their approval.

The BRD was the sovereign power in West Berlin before reunification, air rights were a different issue

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 20):
No, though AC would really love to get in on the action south of the border.

I suppose, though I doubt they would want the increased competition from US carriers (particularly WN, B6, F9, etc.)

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 29):
However, if you wanted to book BOS-YYZ and then YYZ-SEA under seperate PNRs, you could possibly get away with that (although if caught, I believe AC can still be fined).

Yes, AC can be fined and would likely catch the problem before they ever let you fly. Look at what happened when Asiana was carrying people from SPN to the US mainland via SEL.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 38):
I know they aren't states but commonwealth/territories and thought they were technically outside the USA.

The fact that they are commonwealths/territories OF THE UNITED STATES should make that obvious. All people born in these countries hold US passports and all who live there legally carry green cards, visas or citizenship

Quoting Boeing727flyer (Reply 39):
Varig used to operate LHR-CPH using a MD-11 and Thai operated AMS-ZRH also with MD-11. Then Air Seychelles operated B707 FRA-LGW.

That is 5th freedom, not 8th freedom (cabotage)
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sebwhite
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:20 am

Earlier this year I flew LGA-YUL-BOS; it was just $180, cheaper than a nonstop flight. I booked it on Expedia on a multicity ticket, under the same PNR!
 
chris777
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:57 pm

If I remember well DL use to flew from FRA to BUD and Pan Am did the same with B727.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:22 pm

Any centralamerican here knows if TA or LR (Lacsa) have or had cabotage rights between SAP-TGU-LCE-RTB ?
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
bearcuban12
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:40 pm

Up until April of this year, Lufthansa used to operate a round the world freighter that operated FRA - ORD - LAX - HNL - AKL - MEL - KUL - SHJ - FRA
 
MAH4546
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 43):
Any centralamerican here knows if TA or LR (Lacsa) have or had cabotage rights between SAP-TGU-LCE-RTB

TACA is a multi-region airline that is five airlines in one, including SASHA, the national airline of Honduras.
a.
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:24 pm

IIRC, about a year ago, legislation was passed in the U.S. allowing cabotage on some cargo flights when operating under a code-share. I don't have the details, perhaps someone can fill in the gaps here...
A foreign carrier, say Korean Air, could fly freight originating in ANC to JFK, if I understood it all.
Does anyone know if something like this is (yet) happening?

Bearcuban12,
Did LH carry any freight originating in those U.S. cities (reply 44) to those other U.S. cities? I believe that was not the case and therefore does not meet the definition of cabotage. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
Derek1876
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:18 pm

Oh I remember those crazy freedoms of the air. Long time since I have heard that phrase.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:55 pm

Quoting Chris777 (Reply 42):
If I remember well DL use to flew from FRA to BUD and Pan Am did the same with B727.

again, this is a 5th freedom,not a cabotage. And at the time these route was flown Hungary was not part of the EU

Quoting Bearcuban12 (Reply 44):
Up until April of this year, Lufthansa used to operate a round the world freighter that operated FRA - ORD - LAX - HNL - AKL - MEL - KUL - SHJ - FRA

No traffic rights on the domestic part. Remember the problems DHL had (and may still have) when they bought ABX, how they had to construct the ownership so that ABX retained their traffic rights and not become a foreign owned company?

There is definitely no cabotage in the USA, when a US registered company is threatened to loose its base of business when ownership is more than 49% foreign. Think about what would happen if this kind of overregulation is transformed to other industries. We might not even be able to use the Internet.
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COSPN
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RE: Cabotage: Where In The World Is It Allowed?

Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:07 pm

"I believe the HNL-GUM CO Islandhopper has at least two stops in the Federated States of Micronesia, which should qualify as cabotage as Micronesia is independent enough to be a UN member."

Yes Continental Micronesia Operates "Domestic Flights" within the Federated States of Micronesia, and Marshall Islands KWA-MAJ..as well as "International Flights From Palau, Marshall Islands (RMI), and FSM...

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