Indy
Topic Author
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STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:23 pm

I was looking at the image of STL on Google and wondered if the STL parallel runways were independent or dependent in IFR conditions? I can't really tell on the image how far apart they are.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=stl&spn=0.031543,0.042658&t=k&hl=en

It looks like STL should have really good taxi times. Is that the case?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
timz
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:35 am

You're asking about the two runways that are maybe 1500 feet apart? The IFR-independent criterion used to be 4300 ft, and it may still be.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:44 am

Timz you are correct with the 4,300' for duals, can go down to 3,400' with a high update RADAR monitor but, KSTL last I knew totally dependent in IFR weather.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
as739x
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:46 am

Its is dependent. Its in the same boat with SFO (thought STL has more space) in regards to IFR operations. Cloads in, planes out!

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
slider
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:53 am

STL does not have the separation for independent IFR ops, hence the hairbrained W-1W plan.

Now they don't really need it, do they?

Irony is rich. But at least the good retired Colonel Griggs can chuckle about it. Had he only waited until yesterday's SCOTUS ruling, he could have razed the entire villaeg of St. Ann to put up a new runway!

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:53:44]
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
Timz you are correct with the 4,300' for duals, can go down to 3,400' with a high update RADAR monitor but, KSTL last I knew totally dependent in IFR weather.

Simultaneous offset can now go down to 750'. Pretty slick. They can be on an IFR but have VFR separation from the "just ahead" parallel aircraft. As long as the aircraft in trail can see the other aircraft, then both are good to go ILS. The day is coming with new avionics where we'll be down to 760' IFR without the rapid update radar. Boeing already offers the "380' bubble".

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/8260.49.pdf

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:57:06]
 
LambertMan
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
It looks like STL should have really good taxi times. Is that the case?

The taxi times are pretty short, but when the new runway comes into play look for that to change drastically (especially WN & AX).
 
Indy
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:03 am

I'm going by memory but isn't there two setups that can be used in IFR condidtions depending on the distance between the runways? Well two besides full independent use. One being staggered use and the other being just single use. The new runway that they are going to build in STL is it parallel to the other two or is it crossing? Will it be fully independent?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:10 am

If the weather is IFR the visual chance is pretty slim if controlling factor is low ceiling. The mess that is flight standards criteria effectively reduces all the wonderful RNP ability that airplanes have today that could enhance capacity NOW.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Indy (Thread starter):
It looks like STL should have really good taxi times. Is that the case?

Wait until 11/29 comes on line next year, with arrivals on 29 and those WN birds having to taxi for 4-5 miles to get to the East Terminal. And the folks at STL wonder why Southwest is having fits right now...

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
Irony is rich. But at least the good retired Colonel Griggs can chuckle about it. Had he only waited until yesterday's SCOTUS ruling, he could have razed the entire villaeg of St. Ann to put up a new runway!

I know that was part of the plan which was endorsed by the ALPA way back when. Raze most of St. Ann, Edmundson and Woodson Terrace and build two more parallels south of I-70 with a nice new midfield terminal sitting atop the interstate, and IIRC it would have not cost much more than Leonard's Legacy, W-1W....
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 7):
I'm going by memory but isn't there two setups that can be used in IFR condidtions depending on the distance between the runways? Well two besides full independent use. One being staggered use and the other being just single use. The new runway that they are going to build in STL is it parallel to the other two or is it crossing? Will it be fully independent?

Correct. There's dependent (less than 4,300'), independent (4,300" or greater) and Simultanious Offset (less than 4,300' but greater than 750'). There's also threshold displacement which decreases the separation by 100' for every 500' of displacement (This helps LAX). The North runways thresholds are roughly 4000' feet futher west than the South Runways. It allows them Simulatanious Inboard/Outboard with dependent parallels.
 
cat3ils
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:46 am

12r and 30L are an ils approach. 12L and 30r are lda dme approach and are used simultaneously during busy periods. However with the death of TWA, I cant believe that they would need to use the parallels as heavy. Typical set up was one runway for departures and the other for arrivals unless it was very heavy traffic.
 
atrude777
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:10 am

Today, I just flew RSW-STL, R30R were being used for Arrivals, and R 30L for take offs.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
pilotpip
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:10 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 9):
Wait until 11/29 comes on line next year, with arrivals on 29 and those WN birds having to taxi for 4-5 miles to get to the East Terminal. And the folks at STL wonder why Southwest is having fits right now...

I wouldn't be surprised to see 11 used for landings only and 29 for takeoffs only. WN and the rest from the East Terminal and D would likely stay with the 30s all the time and they would likely send much of the traffic on the west side of the field to the new runway. The taxi time from the end of A to 30R probably isn't any longer than it would be down to 11. It may be even faster because you wouldn't have to deal with crossing a parallell.

Oh, and DEN has some horrible taxi times too. Last time I was there it took us nearly 15 minutes from block out to takeoff and we were rolling the whole time.
DMI
 
PHLapproach
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:51 pm

STL is next on the list along with ATL for PRM this year, so they'll be able to run some nice simultaneous close parallel approaches.

[Edited 2005-06-25 08:52:13]
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised to see 11 used for landings only and 29 for takeoffs only.

I had thought about that as well, but what happens when traffic starts to increase, and during inclement weather ATC wants to do simultaneous IFR approaches. 29 will eventually have to be used for landings, and my guess is they will do all they can to ensure WN has all westerly arrivals on 30R...
 
flyf15
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:52 am

From the remarks on STL:

WAIVER TO CONDUCT SIMULTANEOUS APCHS TO PARALLEL RYS SEPARATED BY 1,300 FT IN EFFECT.
 
stlgph
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RE: STL Parallel Runways Independent?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 9):
Wait until 11/29 comes on line next year, with arrivals on 29 and those WN birds having to taxi for 4-5 miles to get to the East Terminal. And the folks at STL wonder why Southwest is having fits right now...

but haven't we heard that AA and WN have both said they will not send their flights out to the new runway?
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