BlueSky1976
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Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:14 am

Hi,

I've stumbled upon this picture here taken at the Paris Air Show this year. Now don't pay any attention to the MA60 model. LOOK WHAT'S IN THE BACKGROUND!!! Would anybody know anything about these ARJ-21 planes?? They look like Mad Dogs with winglets and diffrent engines! Even the tail looks the same! I'm hitting google right now to find some answers... Figured you guys might be interested  

Cheers

EDIT:

I found specifications page HERE. Now don't tell me they didn't copy MDD... I'm wondering if Boeing granted them some sort of a licensing agreement or is it what's left of the AVIC joint venture established wich McDonnell-Douglas in the nineties??

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:20:08]
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B742
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:18 am

Looks more like a 717 lookalike to me!

Thanks for the pic, anyone have any more info on this?

The engine seems to be a CFM.

Rob!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:19 am

If that's CF34 on the engine nacell, isn't it more likely to be something in the RJ class? That being said, China did build a few MD80/90 under liscense from McDonnel Douglas, and maybe they took a few notes for their own  Wink
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:21 am

This is the correct information

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/archive/3663011.shtml

China tries to break Boeing, Airbus domination with self-made aircraft
http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200404/07/eng20040407_139691.shtml
China now pins its hopes on ARJ21, (short for Advanced Regional Jet for the 21st century), a self-designed passenger aircraft of the country's own intellectual property rights, to lead its fight against domination by Boeing and Airbus in the aviation industry.

ARJ21 is designed to be a 70-90 seats turbo fan aircraft for civil use, 32.68 meters in length. Its extended model would have 105 seats, 36.06 meters in length. The aircraft is designed for a distance from 1,200 to 3,700 kilometers.

ARJ21 is not a large mainline plane, but its birth means the opening of a new air route over China's sky along which it will fly side by side with Boeing and Airbus planes.

On December 20, 2003, manufacture of ARJ21 was kicked off simultaneously in four plants in Shanghai, Xi'an, Chengdu and Shenyang.

China capable of producing its own "Boeing" and "Airbus"

Unlike earlier planes jointly developed with foreign countries, such as Brazil, ARJ21 is a completely China designed airplane, experts said.

Although a regional jet, ARJ21 is of a higher grade that lies between feeder and mainline jets. Since it adopts general equipment of mainline jets, such as Boeing 737, its designing work is more difficult because it's harder to put equipment of the same size for large aircraft into a smaller one.

As for whether China is now capable of designing mainline aircraft, aviation expert Zhou Jisheng said in a very affirmative tone, "China is now able to make large mainline aircraft, on top of designing, China can also produce and manage mainline aircraft after cooperation with Mcdonnell Douglas on MD90. This problem has been solved".

"With the ability to produce ARJ21, we can make 150-seats single-passage aircraft like Boeing 737. If China is determined to leap further, plane like Boeing 767 (250-300 seats, narrow-bodied, single passage with seven seats in one row) is also possible. But those like Boeing 747 (broad-bodied, 10 seats in one row) is currently quite difficult for our country".


Not resigned to domination of China's market by foreign brands
The ARJ project receives support from all quarters, said Zhou. "This represents the main trend of conscience and love for the country, because people are not reconciled to domination of the Chinese market all by foreign brands. Besides, ARJ is competitive in terms of price".

"Through our market survey we found that the post-sale service of MD82 and MD90 is very good, but it's too pricey. An overhaul to a large Boeing aircraft needs more than 100 million yuan, so our airlines are also looking forward to home-made planes", another expert Zhao Guoqiang added.

"Production of ARJ is only a start. You cannot depend on the project alone to lift the whole aviation industry out of difficulties. But if ARJ turns out to be of good performance and enjoys brisk markets, we can say the industry has taken a big step forward", said Gao Liang, a noted economist in Beijing.

Civil aviation is a strategic industry of high input, high risk, high tech, long period and slow returns, so we cannot expect immediate benefits, Zhao pointed out.

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:23:51]
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TheSonntag
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:23 am

According to FlugRevue 03/2005, this is a chinese project for a regional jet. It shall already fly in 2006, seat approximately 95 passengers and should be powered by CF34-10A engines with 80Kn. (see the German magazine FlugRevue 03/2005, page 30-31.

In my opinion, this happens when we all are so stupid that we build everything in China. This jet is clearly based on the MD 80 which was produced in Shanghai (35 airframes built in China).

We can see it in all areas: The chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opionion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

The AR21 might be uncompetitive, but it is the first step for the chinese, just wait what happens in 10 to 20 years. As far as I know, one of the reasons for the failure of the AVIC (Airbus project for a regional jet, replaced by the A318) project was that Airbus wanted to avoid the chinese getting access to the Airbus FBW technology.

Please don't flame me for that post, but thats the way I see it.

Michael
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:27 am

Looks like an old MDD fuselage with all-new wing and engines
picture 1
picture 2

looks like Mad Dog is alive after all  Smile
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as739x
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:29 am

Does this surprise you that China would have a plane looking so much like someone else's? If Airbus would have built a plane in China , you'd have A320 look alikes as well.

ASSFO
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:33 am

...and for the final eyecandy: the three-way drawing  

EDIT: ok, so apparently aerosite.net does not allow for direct links, so instead you guys have the main ARJ-21 page with the drawing on it...

[Edited 2005-06-24 18:39:23]
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:36 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
Does this surprise you that China would have a plane looking so much like someone else's? If Airbus would have built a plane in China , you'd have A320 look alikes as well.

Looks like you haven't read my post fully. I asked if this has anything to do with their MDD joint venture and it apparently does. Besides Chinese for ages copied Russian designs. And as far as A320 look alikes, apparently you don't remember the AE316 and AE317 proposed jets....
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as739x
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:44 am

I read your post just fine. Sorry, if you know anything about China's practices, it obvious. They are the pirating captial of the world. Of course it lookes like a MD80 cause it practically is. No I don't remember the AE316/7 cause I don't care for their products. Most never go anywhere and no airline I care about would ever buy there planes. I hope not! Now if I have seem bitter towards China, I am. I work for Alaska and we have our reasons!

ASSFO
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vivek0072
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:04 am

I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it. If the initial + operating cost is low then it would surely give both A&B owners a run for their money. But I am sure western FAAs would not certify it that easily.
That life's most failures were people who did not realise how close they were to success when they gave up. - Edison.
 
srbmod
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:08 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 7):

EDIT: ok, so apparently aerosite.net does not allow for direct links, so instead you guys have the main ARJ-21 page with the drawing on it...

So that's what the 717-100 might have looked like......
 
airbazar
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 10):
I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it. If the initial + operating cost is low then it would surely give both A&B owners a run for their money. But I am sure western FAAs would not certify it that easily.

That's not the point. The point is that when they [the Chinese] get it right, they will take a huge chunck out of A&B market share, considering China has the potential for being one of A&B's biggest customer in the near future.
And if it passes all certification critiria, there's nothing "western FAA's" can do.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:48 am

Kind of looks like a DC-9-30 with 727 wings and CRJ engines/winglets. Good luck, but I have heavy doubts that China can produce it's own Boeing/Airbus...maybe something to compete with Embraer, but even that is starting to become less and less likely. No offense to any Chinese...but I don't think any upstart in any country could grow fast enough to have a chance against the big two.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 10):
I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it.

There is enough market for it in mainland China. They don't have to sell it anywhere else.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 13):
Good luck, but I have heavy doubts that China can produce it's own Boeing/Airbus...

Ummm... they already did. As stated in the earlier post, they manufactured 32 of MD-87.
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flyAUA
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if Boeing granted them some sort of a licensing agreement or is it what's left of the AVIC joint venture established wich McDonnell-Douglas in the nineties??

Oh come on, so everybody who builds and aircraft that looks like the maddog and has 2 engines at the rear is copying MDD? I don't think so!

Thanks for pointing it out though, I remember seeing it. It was in the same hall as the EADS area wasn't it?
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whitehatter
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:09 am

It actually looks more of a hybrid of the Tupolev Tu-334 and 717/DC9


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N766UA
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:22 am

Those 2 side view drawings look exactly like an MD-87 or 717 with different engines. The tail and the cockpit windows are identical! The only big difference is that it lacks a crease in the fusulage.
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B2443
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
We can see it in all areas: The chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opionion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

hate to break your heart...nobody forces western states to risk whatever your talking about in China. They are motivated by profits and nothing else really matters...would you call this an economics (or capitalist) principle? Stop blaming China for your own faults...such as short sightness, greediness etc. So f*cking tried of hearing these "its someone's fault" crying babies...
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:58 am

Quoting Vivek0072 (Reply 10):
I doubt if any non- Chinese carriers would buy it. If the initial + operating cost is low then it would surely give both A&B owners a run for their money. But I am sure western FAAs would not certify it that easily.

The world is a big place. Companies like Huawei (yes, the one Cisco is suing) have some good success in Africa and the Middle East, and I could see some countries buying. Probably China is driven by two motives - profits from a commerical aircraft venture, and development of aerospace industry to better enable it to defend itself or invade Taiwan.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
a self-designed passenger aircraft of the country's own intellectual property rights, to lead its fight against domination by Boeing and Airbus in the aviation industry.

I love this quote. The irony in staightfaced declaration of 'the country's own' IP rights, and positioning it as a moral struggle against the 'domination' of the terrible outsiders.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting BlueSky1976:
Ummm... they already did. As stated in the earlier post, they manufactured 32 of MD-87.

I meant the company, not an actual Airbus/Boeing model...I probably could have worded that better.
 
Pacific
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:09 pm

Let's hope China will get useful knowledge from building this. Technology over there should be much more advanced at the time when they built a plane very similar to that of a 707 in the 80s.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:33 pm

Quote:
In my opinion, this happens when we all are so stupid that we build everything in China. This jet is clearly based on the MD 80 which was produced in Shanghai (35 airframes built in China).

We can see it in all areas: The chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opionion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

China and other developing countries need to catch up somehow. We need to find ways to maintain our lives without forcing the rest of the world to be poor and technologically ignorant. Does Germany's auto sector suffer because Britain or the US can make cars? As China's economy grows, so does China's consumption.
 
KennyK
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:48 pm

I would not be surprised to see this project become a moderate commercial success. China can produce copies and licensed builds OK, but its own indigenous designs do not fare too well. I think this aircraft will change that and will sell very well within China and developing countries.

What is of more concern is what might follow this aircraft as the Chinese industry develops further. A joint project with India for a true 737/A320 replacement in a few years time could be a very serious threat to Airbus & Boeing.

Don't write the Chinese or any other developing countries aircraft off. You only have to look at Embraer and their success, worse still, put Brazil, China and India together, local purchases alone would make a 737/A320 sized aircraft a success, your talking many hundreds of aircraft.

Times.... they are a changing.
 
jeb94
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:23 pm

This aircraft uses the aerodynamics from the MD80/90 but it appears a little narrower. The wing has the same shape as the MD80/90 and the same cockpit window and tail shape but it has considerably smaller engines. This would leave me to believe that this aircraft is structurally very different than the Mad Dog, though probably built using knowledge gained by building MDs. The Mad Dogs are the basis for this design from outward appearance but it isn't an out right copy. Besides, the Chinese do hold a license to build the MD80/90 as someone mentioned and have built 22 90s. If someone wants new build MD80s or 90s they can always try to arrange a deal with China, subject to government approval of course.
 
bennett123
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:00 pm

Friendlyskies

People used to say this about Japan as well.
 
RICARDOAB
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:02 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
China capable of producing its own "Boeing" and "Airbus"

A bit of a false statement by the Chinese I would say. We have already seen how these dated designs cannot work in the modern airline environment with the failure of the 717 and MD-90 programme, so how does China hope to compete against Airbus and Boeing with such a design?
 
jeb94
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:36 pm

The 717 and MD90 are only failures of marketing, not of design. They are superb aircraft and there are airlines that would like more MD90s but would have to turn to China to get them. Boeing never really marketed the 717 and instead of snatching the market that was there for the taking, Boeing chose to ignore it. Now its too late as the Embraer 170/175/190/195 has jumped effectively into that size and range market. MDD failed because of poor marketing and that was carried forward with Boeing Long Beach. Is it any wonder that Boeing has struggled a bit since acquiring MDD and putting the head of MDD in charge? Despite its dated appearance, the MD80 and DC9 are still big money makers for its operators and some, though having plans to retire them, are finding it hard to let such a reliable workhorse go. There are plenty of operators in this world that would love to have the hand me downs from some of these airlines.

[Edited 2005-06-25 11:41:37]
 
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glideslope
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:27 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
We can see it in all areas: The Chinese are only allowing Joint Ventures in China, so that 50% of the company remains Chinese, which allows them to gather know how. I am sorry to get that political, but in my opinion the western states are risking way too much by allowing China to get that much of know-how.

Outstanding point. This is the 800 pound Gorilla that is going to come back and take ALL of your bananas. You see it happening in many other areas as well.
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cha747
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:34 pm

SO WILL NORTHWEST REPLACE THEIR DC-9'S WITH THIS??

(Ducking to avoid the ban/delete gestapo)
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bennett123
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:36 pm

Stranger things have happened.
 
F14D4ever
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
If that's CF34 on the engine nacell[e], isn't it more likely to be something in the RJ class?

It is indeed the CF34-10A. It's a slightly derated version of the -10E on the Embraer 190/195.
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jepstein
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting B742 (Reply 1):
Looks more like a 717 lookalike to me!

I agree B742, but it's kind of like the 737 with winglets of the Mad Dog world,
so I think it looks very cool.  highfive 
 
dtw9
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:41 pm

From Business week -online Nov 13 2002 {A handful of deals inked during the Zhuhai show highlighted China's ambitions to develop a home-grown aviation-manufacturing sector. In a deal potentially worth $3 billion, General Electric Aircraft Engine said it will supply state-owned China Aviation Industry Corp. I (AVIC I) with the engines to power the ARJ21 regional jet now under development.Boeing announced an engineering-consulting contract to help AVIC I with cockpit design and overall engineering of the new jet. This will create some common features with Boeing's 737 model, thereby improving Boeing's chances of selling more of its own airplanes in China.} Makes you wonder if this was Boeings way of flying under the radar to shift 717 production to China.
 
PSAelectra
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am

My 2-cents: Airbus and Boeing should not be worried about the ARJ family. No doubt China has talented technical capability and will only get better in the future. But, the ARJ will have limited success unless the PRC Government mandates its widespread purchase by domestic carriers (patriotism aside, that isn't very likely IMO).

A big hurdle are Chinese passengers themselves: They're not dumb. The majority trust Airbus and Boeing airplanes because they know they are reliable products built under strict certification standards. The Y-7 or MA60 didn't and doesn't have that confidence.

Another hurdle are the Chinese airlines: They need to run healthy businesses and that means reliable airplanes, with good operational and maintenance support documentation. While maybe good at building the ARJ, who knows whether they can develop good repair criteria and documentation and have sound repair answers within 24 hours? Also, it is more fun to take delivery of new airplanes from abroad; i.e. a free trip to Toulouse or Seattle is a lot more fun that going to Shanghai to pick up an airplane.

And politics: With China's huge trade deficit with the western countries, if they don't buy Boeing or Airbus to help close up the gap, they risk some WTO backlash.

A few reasons (I was told) why the MD/AVIC Shanghai-built MD-80 (approx 40 built) and MD-90 (only 2 built) didn't sell well: Even with cheap labor rates, the planes ended up being higher in price to Chinese carriers than the steep discounts Airbus and Boeing offered for A320's and 737's back in the 90's. Add to that the loss of "perks" like getting to leave the country for a month of stateside training and take delivery. Lastly, the Mad Dogs never were viewed as "high-tech" to the Chinese airlines; i.e. no side-stick controllers, new wings, etc.

Then with the MD-80/90 line cancellation after the BA/MDC merger, the lame duck status doomed the airplanes to future in-country production potential.
 
tatfsn
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:18 am

Putting aside the valid economic, marketing, and geopolitical issues raised, I for one think the proposed aircraft is great looking (a kind of jazzed-up, hot rod B717). Though I love all airliners, I personally prefer the t-tail, rear fuselage mounted engine configuration. MD80/90s and the B717s are my favorite airliners for that reason. And it's sad that B727s have all but dissapeared from the fleets of the mainline air carriers (economic and environmental considerations aside).

It is gratifying that the Chinese venture is not yet ANOTHER cruciform tail/engine mounted under each wing design. Given that Boeing has thrown in the towel on the B717 (having made relatively little effort to make it a big player), it would be great if Northwest or another U.S. carrier bought these aircraft. From the specs, if they play out, its cruise speed looks as if it will be faster than that of the B717s, and given the proposed engines and winglets--and the missions for which it is apparently being designed--its takeoff and landing performance will probably be better also.

Those skeptical of a Chinese-designed and built aircraft (Boeing/MD features nonwithstanding), might remember the number of folks who were probably skeptical about Brazil's making substantial inroads into the commercial transport market years ago. No one is skeptical any longer!!

If the Chinese are destined to keep the Mad Dog flying, and to reincarnate the B717, I say more power to them!!
 
AR1300
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:35 am

Looks like they are using some of the knowledge(and blueprints)left behind by those chinese built MD-80's.

Mike.

P.S:the windshield looks ''airbusy'' to me.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:05 pm

>> Given that Boeing has thrown in the towel on the B717 (having made relatively little effort to make it a big player)

Oh whatever dude... Remember that long before it was a Boeing product, the 717 template (MD-95) was able to excite little interest amongs customers in the U.S. or abroad. MD bragged that the entire venture would cost less than $400 million dolllars. Whatcha gonna get with that?

The MD-95 lost out to the Boeing 736 when SAS evaluated both aircraft, and MD was forced to launch on a speculative order from an airline with an uncertain future, f-ing Valuejet. Who in 1995 would have considered Valuejet, an LCC with a horrible reputation fresh of the Everglades disaster, to be a solid customer? This would be like Boeing launching the 787 with an order from Indy-Air....

When Boeing bought-out MD, it was a shocking suprise that they decided to continue the MD-95, and despite all the tech Boeing added when it was relaunched as the 717, it still excited few customers. Boeing flew the 717 all over Europe, all over the U.S, and demonstrated the aircraft to NW, AA, and TWA in particular.

Boeing could have given them away, but they certainly couldn't sell them...

>> Those skeptical of a Chinese-designed and built aircraft (Boeing/MD features nonwithstanding), might remember the number of folks who were probably skeptical about Brazil's making substantial inroads into the commercial transport market years ago. No one is skeptical any longer!!

For a new entrant to be successful, they must do one or both of the following:

1. Create a new niche unoccupied by anyone else
2. Create a product *better* than what the existing duopoly offers

Commuter aircraft were big business for Embraer, but creating a new niche (first method) is how Embraer hit the jackpot. No one else has an aircraft seating 70-100 seats that offers mainline cabin comfort and mainline service level. The E170/E190 are closer to the 737/A320 than CRJ/ERJ, Embraer created this nice and it has yet to be challenged.

Airbus also was doing business with the A300/A310, but the A320 family was what gave them the presence they have today. This aircraft blew away the 737-Classic and MD80 when it hit the market, and loyal Boeing/MD customers converted to the A320. Had Airbus came short or matched existing products, customers would have no reason to give them a thought.

Thus is the situation with China: if their products don't have any new tricks or drastically upset products already on the market, they will do no better than the aircraft the former Soviet manufactures stamp out. Given the degree of heavy RD Boeing and Airbus invest, I think it's unlikely that any current or next-generation aircraft type will be displaced by a product from China.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:17 pm

Look like a hybrid of an F-100 and a Mad Dog with pulled-back ERJ wings!!
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mandala499
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:36 pm

Well, those CF34s are now available in the 18klbs thrust range... like the JT8D-17R and CFM56 low ends...

So, a DC9-30/717 rebuilt ? With winglets, or even a new wing... But... Looks like it'll have a much better flight deck than any of the mad dogs! (a new ARMED position for the spoilers and new auto-spoiler ground logic I hope).

Mandala499
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:48 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2):
maybe they took a few notes for their own

Why should they NOT do what everybody does ?
-
 Yeah sure
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:16 pm

Boeing is or was helping China with the creation of this airplane. Thats why it kinda looks like a 717.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:28 pm

The Chinese are known to have made Chinese copies of many Aircraft.How do they do this.
Someone Gets the Blueprints.  Smile
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MEL
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tatfsn
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:56 pm

>> Given that Boeing has thrown in the towel on the B717 (having made relatively little effort to make it a big player)

>>Oh whatever dude... Remember that long before it was a Boeing product, the 717 template (MD-95) was able to excite little interest amongst customers in the U.S. or abroad. MD bragged that the entire venture would cost less than $400 million dollars. Whatcha gonna get with that?

Points well taken, Dfw:

I concede inasmuch as I shouldn't have put it all on Boeing. McDonnell-Douglas, which was on the skids when the MD-95 debuted, was responsible also. That was among the reasons that airlines were generally skeptical. Another reason is that MD, failing to follow the lessons of Boeing and Airbus, did not offer it as part of a family of aircraft (like they did with their very successful DC-9 and MD-80 series). It was thus poor competition to the Boeing and Airbus competitors as well.

I was gratified that Boeing chose to continue the B717, at least for awhile, though was perplexed, in that the aircraft was more or less a competitor to their B736. An airline, seeing the fleet commonality advantages of a B73G aircraft, and the flexibility of different versions of different capacities, would be unlikely to forego that for a B717 order. I was unsurprised that their plans (whatever they were) for the B717, did not work out.

>>For a new entrant to be successful, they must do one or both of the following:

>>1. Create a new niche unoccupied by anyone else
>>2. Create a product *better* than what the existing duopoly offers

>>Commuter aircraft were big business for Embraer, but creating a new niche (first method) is how Embraer hit the jackpot. No one else has an aircraft seating 70-100 seats that offers mainline cabin comfort and mainline service level. The E170/E190 are closer to the 737/A320 than CRJ/ERJ, Embraer created this nice and it has yet to be challenged.

I beg to differ with you. Embraer hit the jackpot with its ERJ135/145, which, while a unique product, was hardly an answer to an unoccupied niche, especially given that it followed Bombardier's RJ series into service. The CRJs had already racked up a healthy order backlog as well. That the ERJs were a good product was what accounted for their success, but they were hardly the only answer to the market environment at the time.

Also remember that Embraer's first offerings in the U.S. were the Bandierantes and most significantly, the Brasilias. While the latter (especially) are good airplanes, they were among the plethora of turboprop regional aircraft at the time. Definitely not a precursor of what was to come!!

I would also argue that Embraer (and Bombardier, with its CRJ7s and CRJ9s) is, wisely, taking advantage of a market that MD or Boeing, if so inclined, could have really gone after with a B717 family of airplanes; there briefly was talk of a foreshortened B717 model, and a stretch as well, which were abandoned, unfortunately.

We'll have to see how the ARJ pans out as a performer. While it's very unlikely to drastically upset Airbus or Boeing's gigs, if it stands out in terms of fuel economy, speed, and field performance, I can't see how it won't generate a measure of attention and interest. That the EMB170/190s and CRJ700/800s are selling indicates that it will be a player if its a good airplane. And in ten or twenty years, China will be an economic/technological superpower in every way comparable to the U.S. and Europe, and the remainder of Asia. Any Chinese aerospace venture, including commecial aircraft, will be subesquently viewed with utmost seriousness. I wouldn't sell them short.
 
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RE: Paris: Chinese Copy Of A Mad Dog?

Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:09 pm

Quoting Jeb94 (Reply 27):
The 717 and MD90 are only failures of marketing, not of design. They are superb aircraft

Before closing the line, Boeing was offering the 717 at low 20 millions per plane.

The marketing failure of Boeing (or MDD) was not in lack of effort trying to push the product, but overall specification of the plane. It follows that the 717 was not a superb aircraft, otherwise it would have sold like hot cakes at those low prices.
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