fbm3rd
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Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:27 am

looking at the pic of the day (KLM-B777-865698) Under the nose gear it says "ETOPS" on the door. do all etops aircraft have etops written on it somewhere? This is the first time I have seen that I guess I have not been looking hard enough?

Thanx

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ERJ170
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:27 am

I have seen ETOPS written on a couple of aircraft, I think they were CO and US..
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Morvious
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:03 am

Here is a search result with etops
Etops result

Some nice examples


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My question.. What is the reason to put it on the plane? Is it also related to the ground crew or something like that?
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
N34
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:07 am

ETOPS is stenciled on the aircraft to remind the ground crew and the maintenance technicians that the aircraft is an ETOPS certified aircraft. These aircraft have different maintenance requirements than a normal aircraft and not all maintenance technicians are authorized to work on them. They must have specific ETOPS training. Not all airlines stencil their aircraft. It's purely an air carrier option.
 
Morvious
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:10 am

Quoting N34 (Reply 3):
ETOPS is stenciled on the aircraft to remind the ground crew and the maintenance technicians that the aircraft is an ETOPS certified aircraft. These aircraft have different maintenance requirements than a normal aircraft and not all maintenance technicians are authorized to work on them. They must have specific ETOPS training. Not all airlines stencil their aircraft. It's purely an air carrier option.

Hmm i was close with the ground crew thingy then!!

Thanks for explaining.. Aviation can be hard to understand...
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
fbm3rd
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:16 am

thanks peoples...i was wondering if it was required or not...what extra training is required?
 
Gregg
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:20 am

I think it is required when an airline operates a mixed fleet of ETOPS and non-ETOPS on the same type of aircraft. IE., CO 757 domestics are not ETOPS, so the international ETOPS 757 need the words on them.
 
N34
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:29 am

Training depends on the air carrier. They all set their own training programs and authorizations. For some carriers, all maintenance technicians maybe ETOPS qualified. Others may have only a select few qualified. On ETOPS certified aircraft, maintenance is more closely monitored and somethings are prohibited...like engine maintenance on both engines for example. An aircraft must fly a "verification" leg...usually 60 minutes....prior to being released on an ETOPS leg. And by the way, these are US requirements. I'm not sure of other countries.
 
N34
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:33 am

Quoting Gregg (Reply 6):

Not always true. AA, for example, operates a mixed fleet of ETOPS 757s and non-ETOPS 757s and they don't placard their aircraft.
 
fbm3rd
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:17 am

does it cost extra to get a craft ETOPS certified?
 
Chugach
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:31 am

On my NW 753 from ANC-OGG-ANC ETOPS was stamped on the front of the plane.

Fbm3rd, yes it does cost more.
GO ROCKETS
 
vt977
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:32 am

Engine Turns Or Passengers Swim

[Edited 2005-06-25 01:32:59]
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N34
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:00 am

Fbm3rd,
It's difficult to pin down the costs of an ETOPS airplane. It is much more expensive than a regular airplane. Special inspections are required. Plus, parts for ETOPS have to be specially maintained...so those parts will cost more from the repair stations. This is a good example of why an airline doesn't keep all of their aircraft ETOPS.
 
sfilipowicz
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:23 pm

Hmm maybe a stupid question, but what does ETOPS mean?
I often see it on the forums but have no qlue what is means.

Could anybody help me out? Thanks!
 
Joost
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:30 pm

Extended Twin Operations. A set of regulations that imply that two-engined airlines can fly long sectors where no diversion airport is close. (like over-water sections).

A nice explantion is here: http://gc.kls2.com/faq.html#$etops

I rmember having read somewhere, that ETOPS is not really about reduced aircraft range because of the lack of one engine, but differently.

An airliner like a 767 or 777 could easily fly transatlantic sectors on only one engine. It is powerfull enough for it, the engines are only working on a small percentage of their power anyways. One GE90-90 engine as featured in the 777-200ER can provide almost as much power as 3 A340 engines. So that is not the problem.

However, the compressor for cabin presurization is directly connected to the engines. There is a compressor on both engines. When one engine is out, that compressor won't work anymore and you have lost your redundancy.

The reliability of those compressors is lower than that of the engine. As the risk is too high to fly at 30.000+ ft and then losing cabin pressurization, the airliner will have to lower altitude. And as the air is thicker at lower altitudes, the engine needs a lot more power to fly, and so the range is being drasticly reduced.

I can't find the source of this anymore so I have no clue if it is true or a hoax. Is there any expert here?

[Edited 2005-06-25 13:40:30]
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:40 pm

what exactly does ETOPS mean i cant work it out and i feel left out as everybody seems to know what this is  ashamed 
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
rjmxsdf
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:05 pm

some other ETOPs requirements are provisions to fight fires in the baggage and engine compts
 
trident2e
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:43 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 15):
what exactly does ETOPS mean

Extended Twin Operations
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:30 pm

What, if anything, is the difference between ETOPS and EROPS?

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cactusTECH
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:56 pm

Extended Twin Engine Operation or Engine Turns Or People Swim= ETOPS
 
KBGRbillT
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:16 am

It is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operations!!
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 18):
What, if anything, is the difference between ETOPS and EROPS?

I could be wrong, but I think ETOPS is specific to twin engined aircraft, where EROPS is Extended Range Operations, which may or may not be applicable to 2 engine a/c (i.e. a 747).

Quoting Fbm3rd (Reply 9):
does it cost extra to get a craft ETOPS certified?

Certification is the responsibility of the manufacturer, i.e. Boeing or Airbus, etc. A maintenance program must be in place by the airline to make sure that the a/c flying ETOPS has all the necessary equipment in place to fly an ETOPS route. So, certain components that may be allowed to be inoperative on a non-ETOPS flight may not be able to fly an ETOPS route, hence more cost in getting that component on the airplane before the route, which can lead to more delays, cancellations, etc. which all cost extra $$ for the airline. ETOPS programs in the US are monitored by the FAA.
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United_fan
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:24 am

The UA 757 I flew on LAX-LIH had "ETOPS" on it.

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cancidas
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:38 am

ETOPS stands for Extended Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards, but we always call it "Engines Turn Or People Swim...

[Edited 2005-06-25 18:39:15]
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N34
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:38 pm

Extended-Range Operation With Two-Engine Airplanes (ETOPS) are operations conducted over a route containing a point further than one hour flying time at the normal one-engine inoperative cruise speed from an adequate airport. An ETOPS authorization requires a deviation to the operating rule of 14 CFR part 121.161.
Translated, this means air carriers cannot fly more than 60 minutes from a suitable airport. The ETOPS authorization allows air carriers to deviate from this requirement. This authorization is given to individual carriers via Operations Specifications. The Ops Spec will list each aircraft by tail number and the limit of their ETOPS authorization...180 minutes, 240 minutes etc. Not all carriers will have the same authorization, and the maximum limit is set by the FAA. I think it's a bit over 240 minutes now. That number represents the longest planned leg of an oceanic crossing and is limited by aircraft type and airline capability.
So, does this make it clearer...or muddier???
 
OO-AOG
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RE: Pic Of The Day (KLM) And Etops

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:39 am

ETOPS regulations are not only issued by US FAA but by many other CAAs worldwide as well....
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