aa777jr
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Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:13 am

Why isn't NW flying to SYD anymore?


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Might be jumping to NW for flights to the Far East and I was cruising around their site and didn't see flights down under. What gives? Their hub at NRT should be able to handle at least one daily.

Comments?
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avek00
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:17 am

You might want to run a search - this topic has been discussed extensively in previous threads.
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Richard28
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:20 am

I just did a search and found nothing.

I'd like to know too.

why?
 
avek00
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:35 am

Why Don't CO, DL, Or NW Fly To Australia? (by ACB777 Aug 28 2004 in Civil Aviation)
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premobrimo
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:38 am

I'm pretty sure it's government related. Someone else can go into detail about it.
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aa777jr
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:41 am

I saw that post and another one in May 2005, but I didn't read any specifics from NW. The whole hub theory wouldn't make sense cause NW is huge at NRT. Thought it could/would be profitable for them.

Is it the Aussie government?
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avek00
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:48 am

In a nutshell, NW was limited in the amount of Japan-originating customers it could carry. When combined with the then-overcapacity present in USA-Australia flying, and NW's mounting financial troubles, Australia flying was doomed.
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:57 am

1st post on a.net . . .

Aside from the protectionist policies of the Aussie government (see the SQ decision), I honestly doubt anyone can run a profit via NRT. It is already a long flight to the US, and I doubt any pax would want to fly to Japan then onto the US, unless it is very cheap, of course!

(AA has been promoting a reasonably low fare with QF to TYO and then on to LAX or any of the West Coast cities, not sure how well this fare is doing but is a couple hundred dollars cheaper than the direct QF alternative)

Now, if they fly into the East Coast city direct, that would be a different story!
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luv2fly
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:39 am

NW never connected SYD with NRT! The routings they flew were LAX to SYD and JFK to SYD via Osaka!
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commavia
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:10 pm

Quoting Aa777jr (Thread starter):
Why isn't NW flying to SYD anymore?

Because NW was limited to only carrying 50% O&D on NRT-Australia sectors and that wouldn't work. Besides, who would want to connect through NRT to Australia when you could just go via LAX or SFO and save yourself hours?

Excellent, thorough article available here:

http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Networks/NWAustralia.html
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:12 pm

Quoting Aa777jr (Thread starter):
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Photo © Raymond Rowe

We ended service in 96. The picture was taken because we operated a US Olympic Team Charter to the Sydney 2000 Olympics.
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777ER
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:55 pm

Any American airline has full rights to fly to Australia. All the international airlines except UA codeshare on different airlines (AA on QF etc) because they all feel that its cheaper to codeshare to to fly their own metel to Australia. I know CO also flys to PER with a B738 but I'm not sure if its owned by CO or by a CO owned airline
 
avek00
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:59 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 11):
I know CO also flys to PER with a B738 but I'm not sure if its owned by CO or by a CO owned airline

Continental Micronesia, which is wholly-owned by Continental Airlines, Inc., flies from Guam to Cairns.
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:07 pm

Thanks for confirming and correcting Avek00 Smile
 
777STL
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:14 pm

Hawaiian flies from HNL to SYD.
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burnsie28
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:05 pm

It wasnt NRT that NW was flying from, it was Osaka. The Prime Minister and one of his good buddies happened to work for United, who was all upset because they didnt think of it first.

Secondly,
that pic that is posted for year 2000 is the US olympic charter for the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney.
 
cragley
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:32 pm

One small note.

Business class fares for sale in Australia for departures on NW from TYO or OSA to the west coast start at AUD $2999.

Not bad eh?

NW also have the lowest fare (other than CI) from OZ to USA via TYO with QF.
 
cyclonic
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 11):
I know CO also flys to PER with a B738 but I'm not sure if its owned by CO or by a CO owned airline

Have you checked the PER website lately? (http://www.perthairport.com.au) I think you'll find that CO doesn't fly here. Please correct me if i'm mistaken but check the website first....
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MEA
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:12 am

NW had a whole heap of flights into Australia:

Sydney/Los Angeles
Sydney/Honolulu/Los Angeles
Sydney/Osaka/New York re-routed to Sydney/Osaka/Detroit

All these flights were substantially reduced then eventually terminated.

NW wasn't making any money on the direct LAX route as this was only thrice weekly. Yields to LAX via Honolulu were low and the New York/Detroit flights weren't making any money except for the Sydney/Osaka flights which were eventually restricted to 50% pax originating and terminating in Osaka.

Had NW depolyed their B744s on daily SYD LAX JFK services at the time there may be a whole different story to tell.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:54 am

NW pulled out of SYD in 1994. Their SYD routes at the time were:
1. 3 weekly LAX-SYD 744.
2. 4 weekly Osaka-SYD 744.

Since they were 5th restricted on the Osaka-SYD route (hence making it unprofitable), they decided to pull out of SYD altogether (rather than just the Osaka route) since only 3 weekly LAX-SYD flights would not have been economical or competitive, and they had better uses for the 744 elsewhere.
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MEA
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 20):
NW pulled out of SYD in 1994. Their SYD routes at the time were:
1. 3 weekly LAX-SYD 744.
2. 4 weekly Osaka-SYD 744.

You forgot to mention the DC10s on the SYD/HNL/LAX route.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting MEA (Reply 21):
You forgot to mention the DC10s on the SYD/HNL/LAX route.

That route was cancelled separately some time before the last 7 weekly 744 flights in 1994.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
QantasHeavy
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:43 am

I think SkyTeam should try to get into the Oz market at SYD and MEL... besides just the KE to SYD and CO Mic to CNS.

40% of QF's profit comes from SYD/MEL - LAX. Lots of cargo and lots of premium seats sold. Use of DL/CO/NW's LAX connections would be great. I fly the route often and the planes are packed.

I though NW had some 744s in the desert? If not, one might argue that they could make more profit running the 744s to SYD than where they use them today.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 23):
I though NW had some 744s in the desert? If not, one might argue that they could make more profit running the 744s to SYD than where they use them today

We did. And they went straight to the desert after they were built. They were part of the 1993 master plan to reorganise the company to avoid bankruptcy. Their ship numbers would've been 6311 and 6312 respectively. They were sold to United Airlines in 1994.

[Edited 2005-06-26 02:30:12]
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N77014
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 23):
think SkyTeam should try to get into the Oz market at SYD and MEL... besides just the KE to SYD and CO Mic to CNS.

Assuming MH gets into Skyteam; would they have a better chance of flying USA-Australia than SQ did?
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PhilSquares
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 24):
We did. And they went straight to the desert after they were built. They were part of the 1993 master plan to reorganise the company to avoid bankruptcy. Their ship numbers would've been 6311 and 6312 respectively. They were sold to United Airlines in 1994.

Not quite true. Those 744s were never delivered to NWA. UAL took possession of them before they were delivered. They were delivered directly to UAL and never spent a day in the desert.
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:25 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
And they went straight to the desert after they were built.
Not quite true. Those 744s were never delivered to NWA. UAL took possession of them before they were delivered. They were delivered directly to UAL and never spent a day in the desert.
.

Not according Aviation Week and Space Technology, dated 2/26/94. It says that "NW will sell 2 new-build Boeing 747-451's that are presently in storage in Marana, AZ. The sale of the aircraft are part of a program that Northwest Airlines, INC has undertaken to raise cash in a plan to reorganize the company's finances to stave off an iminent bankruptcy filing. In a related story, Northwest Airlines has also announced plans to scrap it's unprofitable service between the US and Australia, as well as their New York to Sydney route via Osaka/Itami Airport due to low demand and increased competition from Qantas, United Airlines, and Japan Airlines." It then goes on to talk about Jon Dasburg's history since taking over NWA. We did place them in the desert immediately after they were constructed, they sat there for several months. You will also find a reference to these in a book printed in 1995, that says that "United will take delivery of 2 747-451's that are in storage, apparently unwanted by Northwest". The book is called "Boeing 747, a complete pictoral history

[Edited 2005-06-26 04:32:02]
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PhilSquares
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:01 pm

Jetjack74, at the time I was working for NWA in a management position in Flight Ops. Inspite of what your reference says, NWA never took delivery of the aircraft. In fact, they were on the assembly line when UAL bought them. In fact, IIRC they got a great deal on one of them because it slipped out of the jig during assembly and sustained some damage. UAL was able to negotiate an even better price from Boeing.
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 28):
I was working for NWA in a management position in Flight Ops

And your point is..........? I know lots of people in management who are clueless. This an official press release by NW in AWST. I'm more inclined to believe them over you.
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PhilSquares
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 29):
And your point is..........?

First of all, I don't consider myself clueless. I could see the handwriting on the wall as far as NWA was concerned.

Secondly, I was involved in the 747/744 program and was involved in the process of getting rid of the 744s to UAL.

Finally, I guess you believe everything you read. What you read was an AWST report, not a press release by NWA! Big difference.

Cheers!!!
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:19 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 30):
I don't consider myself clueless

First of all, I didn't call you clueless, but that the realm of possiblity exists. I was indicating I know several people who are management here at NW who have no idea what's going on, concerning the fleet. I've emailed chief pilots, program managers, people in fleet planning, questions regarding the fleet, and they weren't any help.

Secondly you may want to come down off your high-horse. I was quoting what I read in the magazine, and i'm more inclined to believe it. My reason? I don't know who the hell you are. You could be anybody. Any person can sit here and say that they have such and such credentials. I don't believe everything I readin the press, but AW&ST is pretty accurate with what they report. I checked several issues after it, and there were no retractions or clarifications pretaining to this article. If it was inacurate, i'm sure that a retraction or a clarification would've been made. Yes I have every magazine from 1992-96. Sorry, i'm swayed by what this article says. McGraw Hill is a respected publisher So you've got you position, i've got mine, you're a former Northwest employee, i'm a current one, the only that matters is the now and the future. This discussion is over.
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PhilSquares
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:45 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 31):
This discussion is over.

I have two references for you. But, I guess I didn't know you had the ability to limit discussion. However, here is the first one.

Orders for May 1984 through May 2005
Customer Name Country Region Model Engine Order Date Total
Northwest Airlines U.S.A. North America 747-400 PW 22-Oct-1985 10
Northwest Airlines U.S.A. North America 747-400 PW 12-Oct-1989 4
Northwest Airlines U.S.A. North America 747-400 PW 16-Jan-2001 2
Total 16

and here is the link: http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...t=Customer&ViewReportS=View+Report

Secondly, try this reference www.planespotters.net/Production_Lis...eg=1&field_fate=1&rpp=150&search=1

Here is what that link says....
Reg Aircraft cn ln Operator Delivery Date Status

N661US Boeing 747-451 23719 696 Northwest Airlines 08.12.1989 Active
N662US Boeing 747-451 23720 708 Northwest Airlines 13.03.1989 Active
N663US Boeing 747-451 23818 715 Northwest Airlines 26.01.1989 Active
N664US Boeing 747-451 23819 721 Northwest Airlines 28.04.1989 Active
N665US Boeing 747-451 23820 726 Northwest Airlines 01.09.1989 Active
N666US Boeing 747-451 23821 742 Northwest Airlines 18.08.1989 Active
N667US Boeing 747-451 24222 799 Northwest Airlines 20.07.1990 Active
N668US Boeing 747-451 24223 800 Northwest Airlines 26.07.1990 Active
N669US Boeing 747-451 24224 803 Northwest Airlines 20.08.1990 Active
N670US Boeing 747-451 24225 804 Northwest Airlines 31.08.1990 Active
N671US Boeing 747-451 26477 1206 Northwest Airlines 29.03.1999 Active
N672US Boeing 747-451 30267 1223 Northwest Airlines 19.07.1999 Active
N673US Boeing 747-451 30268 1226 Northwest Airlines 24.08.1999 Active
N674US Boeing 747-451 30269 1232 Northwest Airlines 18.10.1999 Active
N675NW Boeing 747-451 33001 1297 Northwest Airlines 13.03.2002 Active
N676NW Boeing 747-451 33002 1303 Northwest Airlines 18.04.2002 Active

Surprise, surprise, the data bases match. But then again, what do I know. If you doubt who I am, email me and I'll be glad to provide you with any documentation you need. But then again, I don't have to beleive you are who you say you are either. Least you could have done was message me or send me an email. But then again, you'd have to come down off your high horse!

Edit: My apologies for the formatting and inability to link. It's almost midnight in SIN and I just can't seem to get it to work properly. Sorry!

[Edited 2005-06-26 17:49:07]
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:29 am

This really doesn't prove anything. These are for active aircraft that NW actually took ownership of, not subsequent orders or cancelled orders. In fact, I never said that they were actually accepted in to the fleet nor did NW ever own them while they were in storage. Read my responses more carefully. NW bought 4 747-357's in 2002 or somewhere around then. For the purpose of being used as parts donors, and they were never listed in the fleet registry. These were probably built, then most likely put in the desert pending sale. It's very common, that aircraft are built and then put into storage immediate pending their entry into service. They were built as 747-451's, not 422's, which says they were basically completed aircraft when they rolled off the line.

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Photo © Alan Tsui


Read the caption on the second picture. If this is true, than this is partial evidence that NW may have technically owned at least one of them when they were completed. But the facts of this quandry would be near-impossible to prove, unless you happen to have the bill of sale, which maybe you stashed away somewhere. This situation seems to fall under the same one that BA had when the sold off 2 747-236's to MH in 1982. They were not taken up and put in storage in the desert until the sale was finalised.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 31):
I'll be glad to provide you with any documentation you need

I'm really not that interested. Save your money, but thank you anyway.
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[Edited 2005-06-26 20:05:09]
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GARUDAROD
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:35 am

Wasnt there some discussion within the last year about NW reaquiring the two aircraft in question back from UA, as they were built to NW standards and as such would have been a better fleet match??
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:59 am

No, they were configured to UA's layout. There is basically nothting that sets them apart from UA's -422's. N106UA s currently in storage while N105UA is currently flying.
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PhilSquares
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:31 am

Funny you contradict yourself in posts.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 34):
No, they were configured to UA's layout. There is basically nothting that sets them apart from UA's -422's. N106UA s currently in storage while N105UA is currently flying.

If NWA took delivery of the aircraft, they would have been configured in the NWA configuration, not UAL. So, make up your mind, you can't have it both ways. IN addition, the data I provided if for ORDERS, not active fleet or deliveries. So, perhaps you should go back and read the references again.

Please stop the childish remarks.

[Edited 2005-06-27 02:01:45]
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Beno
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:42 pm

Quote:
Aside from the protectionist policies of the Aussie government (see the SQ decision)



Actually ANY US or Australian airline can fly USA-AUS even including Air NZ.
 
N1120A
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:29 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 32):
They were built as 747-451's, not 422's, which says they were basically completed aircraft when they rolled off the line.

No it doesn't. If you want another example, take a look at the VS 744s that were ntu by AZ but have AZ's code
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:05 pm

I'm purely sepculating, N1120A. I don't know, i'm not claiming to know, when customer ID numbers are permanantly assigned. Most likely the VS 744 were just left with the AZ block number, becuase VS didn't have one when they took those 744's? A boeing exec or some one in sales may know. I don't know, like I said, i'm just guessing
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Airlines In Australia.

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 35):
Funny you contradict yourself in posts.



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 34):
No, they were configured to UA's layout

"They" as in "United" configured the aircraft to "their" configuration.
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