B707Stu
Topic Author
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How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:25 am

I just came back from my first JetBlue flights. A simple roundtrip JFK-SYR-JFK. When's the last time you saw f/a's eager to help people with their carry on luggage to the point they greeted people, brought them to their seats and placed their luggage above? When's the last time you actually experienced genuinely friendly crews and watched Judy Judy at 22,000 feet? I'm over 30 years a commercial enthusiast and air traveller, including 18 yrs working for airlines and other travel related industry.

I came away from this experience wondering how many "full service" legacy carriers will JetBlue or a similar type, eg SOuthwest, AirTrain, bring down? To be honest, I hope it's all of them but want to hear others opinions please.
 
B707Stu
Topic Author
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:27 am

Note to the moderator: this is not a poll, it's a discussion of the impact of discounted carriers against the legacies and what's happening in the industry.
 
newkai
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:30 am

Not many carriers have been able to take down B6 on routes. The only example I can think of is that DL drove B6 out of ATL.
 
srbmod
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Newkai (Reply 2):
The only example I can think of is that DL drove B6 out of ATL.

You can't give DL all of the credit on that, as FL played a role in it as well, even though they weren't flying their own metal on the routes. One of the problems that B6 had in ATL is that all of the cities they connected to @ LGB already had non-stop service out of ATL on DL, so their feed was primarily O & D, and with DL offering service to LAX, ONT, and SNA out of ATL. B6 really got put in a corner when FL added LAX and later SFO to compete with the last ditch move by B6 to add OAK, as it was the most popular connection of the customers on the ATL-LGB flights. The failure of B6 @ ATL was due to poor planning. I still think B6 made a mistake by not starting JFK-ATL flights, as other than FL's flights into EWR and LGA, there was no other true LCC on the routes between ATL and the NYC area airports (DL putting Song on the ATL-JFK was partially to keep B6 off of the route). If they would have offered ATL-JFK flights that were timed to coordinate with the LGB-ATL flights, they could have possibly made ATL work.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:58 am

B707Stu:

Read this thread, and then rethink this post!

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eral_aviation/read.main/2095745/4/

dtwclipper
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
FA4B6
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3):
You can't give DL all of the credit on that, as FL played a role in it as well, even though they weren't flying their own metal on the routes. One of the problems that B6 had in ATL is that all of the cities they connected to @ LGB already had non-stop service out of ATL on DL, so their feed was primarily O & D, and with DL offering service to LAX, ONT, and SNA out of ATL. B6 really got put in a corner when FL added LAX and later SFO to compete with the last ditch move by B6 to add OAK, as it was the most popular connection of the customers on the ATL-LGB flights. The failure of B6 @ ATL was due to poor planning. I still think B6 made a mistake by not starting JFK-ATL flights, as other than FL's flights into EWR and LGA, there was no other true LCC on the routes between ATL and the NYC area airports (DL putting Song on the ATL-JFK was partially to keep B6 off of the route). If they would have offered ATL-JFK flights that were timed to coordinate with the LGB-ATL flights, they could have possibly made ATL work.

What's sad is that towards the end, the LGB/OAK-ATL flights were full [I know I know blah blah blah]. I think that sometimes JetBlue has the same syndrome my last company [non-airline] has where if it doesn't turn to gold the moment they touch it, it's deemed a failure. I think JetBlue should've nurtured ATL more, kept the LGB/OAK-ATL 1x daily redeye service, and grown ATL from there. I'm not sure though that JFK-ATL would've been successful, it seems pretty saturated. B6 did drive the airfares down on ATL-LA significantly, though [am I correct in saying that?]
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
B747-437B
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 5):
I think JetBlue should've nurtured ATL more, kept the LGB/OAK-ATL 1x daily redeye service, and grown ATL from there

With Delta having access to essentially infinite incremental capacity both through their larger fleet as well as their infrastructure available at destination airports (remember LGB is severely slot constrained), jetBlue realized that the only way they could grow market share in Atlanta would be by selling at a further deflated yield and higher load factor which would become unsustainable beyond the next year with projected cost increases. It was a long term view that drove B6 out of Atlanta because there was no doubt that they were doing fine in the short and mid-term, but the resources were better deployed elsewhere.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
burnsie28
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:38 am

I think you fail to realize one thing, its simple.

Here are my thoughts.
Many of the legacy carriers have older FA's, thus, with all the hiring freezes and layoffs new more energetic FA's and other employees will come on board making them much like B6 in attitude, which all the LCC's have because they are in fact much younger.

Secondly, if say all the legacy carriers went down, how are you going to get anywhere, sure the LCC's can currently get you domestically and maybe a few international (mexico and caribbean) but what about Europe and Asia, the LCC's offer little if any benefits or services other then a seat. Also, those cheap fares and "great" attitude you seem to enjoy would be gone, and they would become just like legacy carriers today.

Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.
 
aa757first
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting B707Stu (Thread starter):

I came away from this experience wondering how many "full service" legacy carriers will JetBlue or a similar type, eg SOuthwest, AirTrain, bring down? To be honest, I hope it's all of them but want to hear others opinions please.

You hope jetBlue destroys all other carriers? Ok, enjoy your $426 non-refundable ticket between JFK and SYR.

Sorry, jetBlue isn't going to kill anyone. As they bring on the new EMB-190, costs will go up. Next, employees will start "Hey, we are one of the most profitable airlines and my pay maxes out at $xx!" and will start a union campaign. I hear flight attendants are already making some galley talk about getting a union in. I'm not saying jetBlue is going to die, but they are certainly going to be made weaker as their costs increase.

AAndrew
 
newkai
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

The legacies don't underpay, they just fire!  Smile
 
luv2fly
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 8):
Sorry, jetBlue isn't going to kill anyone. As they bring on the new EMB-190, costs will go up. Next, employees will start "Hey, we are one of the most profitable airlines and my pay maxes out at $xx!" and will start a union campaign. I hear flight attendants are already making some galley talk about getting a union in. I'm not saying jetBlue is going to die, but they are certainly going to be made weaker as their costs increase.

Oh the tired arguments about the 190's going to be the down fall of B6!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
luvfa
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

With our new contract WN's F/A pay is competitive with all the legacy carriers. Our pilots got a good raise in their last contract extension. While we are concerned with our rising costs; Gary Kelly has found a way to drive down our non-labor costs. Fuel hedging has really helped us as well.

Sadly, all of our competitors are going after labor where management needs to shoulder the blame!
 
newkai
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:14 am

I guess I read the topic wrong, due to the typo... I see now that the question is "How many Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?"

Hmmmm... Well, there aren't that many left to take down, so I'll say none.
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting B707Stu (Thread starter):
how many "full service" legacy carriers will JetBlue or a similar type, eg SOuthwest, AirTrain, bring down?

IMO, the Legacy carriers are the ones that shot themselves in the foot relying on their own dinosaur aged business practices and lack of innovation. This is now the Information Age and those type of businesses are dying left and right in all industries. In these times information flows so fast and available to all that product/business cycles are shorter than ever and businesses must be built to react and constantly adapt, or die. For example, Southwest has done this well, look at all the things they've done in recent years that we would have never thought to have been done by the way we knew them in the past.

To sum it up, many Legacy carriers were ignorant of change and provided the opportunity for competition to form and better serve the public, that's how the capitalistic system works. The funny thing is that many Legacy carriers still haven't diverted from their past perspectives, even while they are losing big time.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Many of the legacy carriers have older FA's, thus, with all the hiring freezes and layoffs new more energetic FA's and other employees will come on board making them much like B6 in attitude, which all the LCC's have because they are in fact much younger.

Look at Southwest, most crews have that same energy and spirit and have been working there for decades. It's more than newness, its Corporate culture! Same as my saying above...
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
apodino
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

Aren't WN pilots now among the best paid in the industry? How can you say you are supporting an airline that underpays its employees when they pay many of their employees as well or not better than legacy carriers?
 
commavia
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
Look at Southwest, most crews have that same energy and spirit and have been working there for decades.

I don't think so. I am almost positive that if you compared the average age of a WN FA with an AA or DL FA, WN's would be significantly lower. The reason? In this seniority-based, unionized industry, layoffs mean juniority goes first. As AA, DL, UA, and just about every other legacy has laid people off since 9/11, their junior people are all gone, leaving many senior FAs. At WN, by contrast, and at B6, FL, and all the other low-fare airlines, they have been hiring like crazy to keep up with their (IMO unsustainable) growth. The result -- their FAs are young and energetic, if lower paid in some cases, while the FAs at the legacies are old and, in many cases, bitter and rude.

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
It's more than newness, its Corporate culture! Same as my saying above...

The corporate culture has a huge part to do with it, no doubt -- and WN has been enormously successful in that way -- but youth certainly has a role to play as well.
 
luv2fly
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:50 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
I don't think so. I am almost positive that if you compared the average age of a WN FA with an AA or DL FA, WN's would be significantly lower.

I would have to disagree with that as WN has not laid off any FA's after 9-11
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
commavia
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16):
I would have to disagree with that as WN has not laid off any FA's after 9-11

Nobody said they did. I was saying that the average age of the WN FA roster is significantly lower than at the legacies -- not because they haven't been laying people off, but because they have been hiring new FAs while all the legacies have been laying people off. They, and all the other LCCs, have been injecting new, young blood into the FA ranks while some fairly senior FAs have pretty much retained the majority at most of the legacies because all the junior people have been furloughed.
 
luv2fly
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
Nobody said they did. I was saying that the average age of the WN FA roster is significantly lower than at the legacies -- not because they haven't been laying people off, but because they have been hiring new FAs while all the legacies have been laying people off. They, and all the other LCCs, have been injecting new, young blood into the FA ranks while some fairly senior FAs have pretty much retained the majority at most of the legacies because all the junior people have been furloughed.

Just because they are hirring not all the FA's are going to be new hires, they do have seniot FA's as well.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
LawnDart
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:15 am

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
IMO, the Legacy carriers are the ones that shot themselves in the foot relying on their own dinosaur aged business practices and lack of innovation.

What "dinosaur aged business practices" or "lack of innovation" are you talking about? The hub and spoke model, the electronic reservation system, a multi-type fleet, different fare levels? Or are you talking about an older work force, which comes with the length of time a company is in business (even WN has some sky hags...), frequent flier programs, etc. "Business practices" leaves a lot of room to maneuver, and I would dare say that the US airline industry is one of the most innovative due in large part to the legacy carriers (Innovation is not always effective, however).

The low-cost carriers are not all the same. AirTran is nothing more than a hub-and-spoke carrier with 2 types of aircraft in a relatively small fleet. JetBlue operates out of some of the most expensive and congested airports in the country (BOS / JFK / FLL), and will soon have two aircraft types themselves. Southwest is one of the most heavily unionized airlines in the business and they, too, are starting service out of expensive, congested airports (or have for years, in the case of LAX). How much money would they be making if they didn't have fuel hedges?

Some of the low-cost carriers will continue being successful (WN), others may flourish - too soon to tell with B6. ATA may end up disappearing (WN wants the MDW facilities, I doubt anything more), and HP is taking a HUGE risk with the US merger.

The legacy carriers have made mistakes, and have had a tough time adjusting to changing market realities. Some of them will catch on, however, and survive as stronger carriers than before. They provide invaluable service to places the LCCs will not be able to go to for many years to come, or have no interest in going to in the first place. They have market reach, through depth of their own service or through alliances. Once they've figured out some issues, I truly believe there will be possibly fewer, but much stronger, legacy carriers.
 
commavia
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 18):
Just because they are hirring not all the FA's are going to be new hires, they do have seniot FA's as well.

Again, nobody said they were all new FAs at WN. Of course there are still many FAs at WN who have stuck around for decades because it's such a great place to work. But, the proportion of FAs at WN who are junior is -- almost certainly -- much higher than at AA or UA because those airlines have laid off all the junior people in the last few years while WN has been hiring all new, junior FAs. Thus, as I said earlier, the average seniority of a WN FA is lower than that of AA or UA.

Generally speaking on this whole topic, though:

I, personally, feel that the next 5-10 years (out to about 2015) is going to be the most difficult and challenging period in history for the LCCs. This is for a couple of reasons.

First, the "high cost" airlines are not quite as high cost anymore. Their cost structures are still well above most LCCs, and always will be. But, it used to be that AA, UA, US, etc. had unit operating costs almost twice as high as the LCCs. Now, they are all within 1-2 cents of most LLCs. In addition, they can still generate a revenue premium in a large (although shrinking) number of domestic markets, and still garner very high revenue premiums on international -- and particularly intercontinental -- routings because they face very little low fare competition. As a result, the biggest single problem the legacies had five years ago, their extremely high costs, is beginning to become less and less of an issue.

The second reason I think that LCCs are going to have an enormous challenging difficult time in the next 5-10 years is because fo the gross overcapacity they are introducing into the market today and will in the future. They are ordering airplanes in batches of 50 or 60 at a time, and all of these planes are going to have to go somewhere. LCCs for years have tried, generally, to not bump into the legacy carries so as not to piss them off. Now, that's changed, they have the power and are running completely over the legacies. But, pretty soon, they are going to start running into each other. We are already seeing it with B6 and WN at BWI and PHL, and with DH along the east coast. This is going to be a new challenge for all of them, especially considering that some of these airlines are anticipating receiving over 100 new airplanes in the next few years. IMO, that is just way too many planes and they are never going to be able to find places to fly them fast enough, if for no other reason, than because of ATC problems. Either way, I think that in a few years, most LCCs are going to be drowning in the own overcapacity and will face serious financial challenges when they have to pay for the planes they ordered during a period of rapid growth but won't be able to finance then because their growth rates will have inevitably slowed (20-40% ASM growth YOY is just simply unsustainable, IMO).

Bottom line: I think that anyone writing the eulogy of legacy carriers -- in general -- is being way too premature. Will some legacy carriers go away? Almost certainly. Over time, the market will naturally rightsize the number of legacy carriers that it needs. IMO, the U.S. can probably support 4, and maybe 5, legacy carriers, but not 6. But, by the same token, I also think that while the LCCs are all riding high now, the time will come when their will be a natural weeding out process of them, too. Right now, they are all growing at astronomical rates (the notable exception being WN, who very smartly and conservatively restricts itself to generally less than 10% YOY ASM growth) and this growth is what is sustaining their finances and helping fund aircraft orders, etc. Once this growth slows, they are going to have to become much more nimble and conservative with capacity. In the end, a more conservatively growing group of LCC airlines and a group of more innovative, lower-cost legacy carriers will learn to coexist in an atmosphere less volatile than at the present.

I apologize for the length; just my $.02.
 
aa757first
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:10 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 10):
Oh the tired arguments about the 190's going to be the down fall of B6!

I said I don't think jetBlue will die because of it. But, are you telling me operating two types of aircraft isn't going to raise costs.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14):

Aren't WN pilots now among the best paid in the industry? How can you say you are supporting an airline that underpays its employees when they pay many of their employees as well or not better than legacy carriers?

I think they are the best paid 737 pilots in the industry.

1st Year Captain American: $26,880
1st Year Captain AirTran: $85,680
1st Year Captain Delta: $111,540
1st Year Captain US Airways: $21,600
1st Year Captain Miami Air: $53,760
1st Year Captain Southwest: $149,760

5th Year Captain American: $115,200
5th Year Captain AirTran: $100,800
5th Year Captain Delta: $115,440
5th Year Captain US Airways: $100,224
5th Year Captain Miami Air: $73,080
5th Year Captain Southwest: $157,248

Top Year Captain American: $121,344
Top Year Captain AirTran: $128,520
Top Year Captain Delta: $121,680
Top Year Captain US Airways: $108,000
Top Year Captain Miami Air: $98,280
Top Year Captain Southwest: $170,352

AAndrew
 
dtwclipper
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:47 am

I find it very interesting that B707Stu starts this flame bait thread and disappears!

Do a little search on some of his other comments....the guy has a thing for the legacy carriers.




"And maybe it'll force NW to get some real customer service then."

"It's not a surprise really. Delta hired, about 1 year ago the PEterson group to help them prepare for bankruptcy. It looks like we're one step closer. Very sad news"
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
User avatar
casinterest
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:01 am

DTWClipper,
Not to fan the flames, but I'll be honest, and you can probably find it in an AA thread, the legacies have gone to H E L L. I flew American to Hawaii on my honeymoon, and to be honest if Southwest flew to Hawaii, it couldn't have been much if any worse. No frills, buy on board, And I didn't pay cheaply for those tickets. Nope in my opinion the big guys that are struggling are doing so for a multitude of reasons. However customer service is taking the biggest hit on AA , DL, US AIR and, from what I have seen lately, NW as well. I actually look upon the service I have gotten on FLYI as steller compared to these companies.
The legacies may have been around for awhile, but thier recent behavior has not only sunk them to the levels of the LCC's. but below it.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
burnsie28
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 21):
I think they are the best paid 737 pilots in the industry.

1st Year Captain American: $26,880
1st Year Captain AirTran: $85,680
1st Year Captain Delta: $111,540
1st Year Captain US Airways: $21,600
1st Year Captain Miami Air: $53,760
1st Year Captain Southwest: $149,760

5th Year Captain American: $115,200
5th Year Captain AirTran: $100,800
5th Year Captain Delta: $115,440
5th Year Captain US Airways: $100,224
5th Year Captain Miami Air: $73,080
5th Year Captain Southwest: $157,248

Top Year Captain American: $121,344
Top Year Captain AirTran: $128,520
Top Year Captain Delta: $121,680
Top Year Captain US Airways: $108,000
Top Year Captain Miami Air: $98,280
Top Year Captain Southwest: $170,352

AAndrew

Your numbers are not accurate, why, because nobody can be a first year captain, nobody just comes to the airline and becomes a captain, that essentually is what those numbers are.
 
airtran737
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 24):
Your numbers are not accurate, why, because nobody can be a first year captain, nobody just comes to the airline and becomes a captain, that essentually is what those numbers are.

I believe those numbers are based on what a cpatain would make in his first year as a captain.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Gilligan
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
To sum it up, many Legacy carriers were ignorant of change and provided the opportunity for competition to form and better serve the public, that's how the capitalistic system works. The funny thing is that many Legacy carriers still haven't diverted from their past perspectives, even while they are losing big time.

When I can board a WN a/c and fly direct to europe, latin america, or the far east, I will feel that the airline I presently work for is in trouble. Of course that will only happen on the 737-1000 f variant.

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
Look at Southwest, most crews have that same energy and spirit and have been working there for decades. It's more than newness, its Corporate culture! Same as my saying above...

I worked for WN. At the station I was at the average age was probably in the mid-20's and I don't think anyone other than a few supervisors had more than 10-15 years seniority. At the airline I work for now we just had a 40 year veteran retire and there are a couple of 50 year veterans still working as well as a slew of 20-40 year veterans. That makes a huge difference not only in pay, but in defined benefits as well. If employees stay with WN, sooner or later their costs will start to show up, it's just a matter of time.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
burnsie28
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:49 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 25):
Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 24):
Your numbers are not accurate, why, because nobody can be a first year captain, nobody just comes to the airline and becomes a captain, that essentually is what those numbers are.

I believe those numbers are based on what a cpatain would make in his first year as a captain.

Nope its the year in which they are at the company, not their first year as a captain. My dad is a captain, and I can tell you that the above numbers are not the case.
 
coa764
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RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
IMO, the Legacy carriers are the ones that shot themselves in the foot relying on their own dinosaur aged business practices and lack of innovation. This is now the Information Age and those type of businesses are dying left and right in all industries. In these times information flows so fast and available to all that product/business cycles are shorter than ever and businesses must be built to react and constantly adapt, or die. For example, Southwest has done this well, look at all the things they've done in recent years that we would have never thought to have been done by the way we knew them in the past.

To sum it up, many Legacy carriers were ignorant of change and provided the opportunity for competition to form and better serve the public, that's how the capitalistic system works. The funny thing is that many Legacy carriers still haven't diverted from their past perspectives, even while they are losing big time.

It just goes on and on, LLC vs. Legacy the age old argument of the arm chair airline enthusiast on A-net. Threads entitled "Why I think Jetblue is just Keen" and "How the dinosaurs ruled the earth: the rise and fall of the legacy airline" seem to pop up every week sparking off the usual tired diatribe of how the major airlines have antiquated business plans with zero innovations only relying on the "old ways" to do business. I guess the picture you get is a bunch old, stuffy men in a board room wearing blue suits and smoking cigars that were lit with one hundred dollar bills. While the accountant is in the next room with his visor hat crunching numbers in a big ledger book putting everything into "perspective" for the cigar smoking suits in the next room.

Here it is simple and short: LLC's and Legacy airlines, while on the outside look similar, are very different machines. Yes they both employee the same tools of the trade to do business but the product offered is like comparing Smith & Wollensky to Sizzler, yes you can get a steak at both places but the overall product and experiences are different.

Fact is LLC's like Jetblue can offer such nice perks at such a low cost because the airline only caters to the select, profitable, routes were the planners feel the company will make money. They are also limited by the mission capability of there fleet type to only certain market types, for example JFK-FLL vs. JFK-DLH (JFK-DLH would not be profitable) and only fly out and back with no connecting or interline service. The airline also enjoys a low infrastructure cost only flying these limited routes with a smaller fleet and flying only domestically.

Legacy airlines too offer service to FLL from New York but also can offer the people of DLH the option to go to FLL or ANC. The legacy's infrastructure cost is higher because they serve smaller markets that domestically, point to point, may loose money but the connecting service will make them money. The LLC passenger cannot book DLH-NRT or DLH-AMS were as the Legacy's can offer this expanded routing with First Class service. The trade off is the cost associated with maintaining such a large, global network.

The naysayer here thinks that the LLC's are the mythical knight riding in to save them and their pocket books from the evil thaws of the legacy boardroom. Fact is that if you do not live in an LLC HUB and do not really need to go to a city served by an LLC then you’re out of luck (LUV being the exception). What good is Jetblue to the family of four that want to fly from BOI-FLL or is Airtran to the same family wanting to fly BOI-ACA? While Jetblue might be giving the legacy's competition to and from Florida don't forget that the legacies are also providing service on a lot of routes Jetblue cannot.

SWA tried to kill US and failed so the notion that Jetblue would be able to "take down" a legacy is about as out there as legalized gambling and prostitution in Utah. But for discussion sake lets say it did happen, do you really think the end product that Jetblue will offer is going to be anything similar to it is now (keep in mind they most likely will backfill the routes of the airline they KO)? Also if this were to happen and Jetblue became the size of a legacy the new A-net discussion would be "Why I think JetBlue is a dinosaur" and "Do you think Airline X will take down Jetblue"?




[Edited 2005-06-27 02:59:45]
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 28):
Fact is LLC's like Jetblue can offer such nice perks at such a low cost because the airline only caters to the select, profitable, routes were the planners feel the company will make money.

HELLO! And this concept is wrong why??????????????????????
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 24):

Your numbers are not accurate, why, because nobody can be a first year captain, nobody just comes to the airline and becomes a captain, that essentually is what those numbers are.



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 27):

Nope its the year in which they are at the company, not their first year as a captain. My dad is a captain, and I can tell you that the above numbers are not the case.

I'm pretty sure it depends on the airline. Some airlines have "company seniority which is for vacation accrual and reduction of force, and some have "position seniority" which is, for example, MD-88 First Officer then MD-88 Captain, then maybe 757 First Officer, etc.

AAndrew
 
coa764
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:32 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:14 am

HELLO! I never eluded to the fact that the concept is flawed but merely expressing that Jetblue makes a profit because they choose to do so. I was also pointing out that the notion that an LLC, while using this type of model, taking down a larger, global, network carrier is flawed for the very same reason.
Please oh please Mr Moderator Nazi, dont delete my thread.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41 am

Let me quote myselfe from a thread I started, linked to this but no one decided to read:

I don't want to start a flame war here, but there is a point that has been bothering me for as long as I have been a member of this board.

Many users write that they are heartbroken that they never got the chance to fly on some of the great names of the airline world such as Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Eastern, etc. Granted, that these carriers disappeared for a variety of reasons, I am however, sure that when the next US legacy carrier leaves us for good, a new round of "geez they were great and I miss them" will start popping up all over the boards.

On the flip side of this, is the love of upstarts, low cost, no frills airlines that to many a user seem to be the greatest invention since the bagel.

If you all you want to see the remaining great names survive, why do you bash them until the moment they die? Why are you not out there supporting some of Americas greatest institutions.

I give my travel dollars happily to NW, not only because they get me to were I need to go, but also because they offer the kind of business product (worldclubs, Elite status, domestic & international service) that we will surely miss if the legacy carriers disappear.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
B707Stu
Topic Author
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:37 am

First of all, I didn't disappear. I was sleeping all day after a long weekend away at a staff person's wedding. Secondly, my history is very very pro legacy carriers. What inspired me to post this thread was the sudden realization that life had changed - let's call it future shock on my part. I've avoided flying the WN's, B6's, FL's of this world because I've pre-judged them. What also inspired me to write this post was to publically acknowledge my shift in awareness and gained respect for the LCC's. My brother is a 30 yrs employee of a legacy and I do not wish to see him hurt. Hope that clears that up. Now, as to some other responses.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Here are my thoughts.
Many of the legacy carriers have older FA's, thus, with all the hiring freezes and layoffs new more energetic FA's and other employees will come on board making them much like B6 in attitude, which all the LCC's have because they are in fact much younger.

There were two middle aged f/a's out of 4 on my B6 flight this morning so that's not what I witnessed. I also paid close attention to their ages as I waited at their JFK terminal. I saw the same range I see at legacy carriers.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Secondly, if say all the legacy carriers went down, how are you going to get anywhere, sure the LCC's can currently get you domestically and maybe a few international (mexico and caribbean) but what about Europe and Asia, the LCC's offer little if any benefits or services other then a seat. Also, those cheap fares and "great" attitude you seem to enjoy would be gone, and they would become just like legacy carriers today.

Two words, Laker Airways - ahead of its time. And what perhaps I didn't articulate but has become clearer since first writing is there are different ways of interpreting 'take-down.' Meaning, they may exist but the legacy business model will certainly, eg Song, Ted, need to be altered to remain competitive.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Im flying WN this summer, but thats only because I could not afford a legacy out of SFO, otherwise i would have happily given my money to them instead of supporting airlines that under pay their employees and dont have the programs and worldwide reach that Legacy carriers do.

Meanwhile, you're flying WN!

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 8):
You hope jetBlue destroys all other carriers? Ok, enjoy your $426 non-refundable ticket between JFK and SYR.

Sorry, jetBlue isn't going to kill anyone. As they bring on the new EMB-190, costs will go up. Next, employees will start "Hey, we are one of the most profitable airlines and my pay maxes out at $xx!" and will start a union campaign. I hear flight attendants are already making some galley talk about getting a union in. I'm not saying jetBlue is going to die, but they are certainly going to be made weaker as their costs increase.

AAndrew

AAndrew, I was an employee of AA for over 5 yrs, AF over 2. You're reading me all wrong and frankly I think you're wrong on the unionization chat. Of course there's a loss of service through the B6's of this world, but innovation (eg multi-channel live TV, leather seats, free soda and biscotti) always challenges the market.

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
Look at Southwest, most crews have that same energy and spirit and have been working there for decades. It's more than newness, its Corporate culture! Same as my saying above...

BINGO. That's what I witnessed at JetBlue this weekend. I encountered a corporate culture, from the guy who checked me in at curbside, who I personally witnessed walk over to cars and help people with their luggage to check-in, to the f/a who noticed i cleaned the floor area and made a point to "thank me for my consideration" to the middle aged flight attendant schlepping a passengers overhead bag and rearranging it to make room for others. The attitude permeated the experience. And it was a positive attitude of happy employees that resulted in on time flights, clean aircraft, fun (TV) and ultimately a positive customer experience.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
I find it very interesting that B707Stu starts this flame bait thread and disappears!
Oh Please, that wasn't my intent. But I'm glad it went that way. I'm glad I hit a chord I didn't know existed just from my experience.

Do a little search on some of his other comments....the guy has a thing for the legacy carriers.

This guy happens to love legacy carriers. If you bothered to look at my "respect" pictures in my profile you'll see where I grew up and when. My heart belongs to the 60's and look at my handle, hello, I'm a B707 fan, when legacy's where at their height!
 
B707Stu
Topic Author
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 28):
Fact is LLC's like Jetblue can offer such nice perks at such a low cost because the airline only caters to the select, profitable, routes were the planners feel the company will make money. They are also limited by the mission capability of there fleet type to only certain market types, for example JFK-FLL vs. JFK-DLH (JFK-DLH would not be profitable) and only fly out and back with no connecting or interline service. The airline also enjoys a low infrastructure cost only flying these limited routes with a smaller fleet and flying only domestically.

Legacy airlines too offer service to FLL from New York but also can offer the people of DLH the option to go to FLL or ANC. The legacy's infrastructure cost is higher because they serve smaller markets that domestically, point to point, may loose money but the connecting service will make them money. The LLC passenger cannot book DLH-NRT or DLH-AMS were as the Legacy's can offer this expanded routing with First Class service. The trade off is the cost associated with maintaining such a large, global network.

The naysayer here thinks that the LLC's are the mythical knight riding in to save them and their pocket books from the evil thaws of the legacy boardroom. Fact is that if you do not live in an LLC HUB and do not really need to go to a city served by an LLC then you’re out of luck (LUV being the exception). What good is Jetblue to the family of four that want to fly from BOI-FLL or is Airtran to the same family wanting to fly BOI-ACA? While Jetblue might be giving the legacy's competition to and from Florida don't forget that the legacies are also providing service on a lot of routes Jetblue cannot.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.
 
notbluejet
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:00 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:57 am

There is no point to continue on. This must be the 100th argument of this nature. Personally I think Jetblue is a big thorn in the side of legacy carriers but they also have their own issues resolve.

All the legacy employees will for sure defend their carrier to the death. And I dont blame you, this is your company and they put bread on your table.

The LCC employees will be the same. The difference is JetBlue and many others introduced many innovations that some people dont agree with but the numbers have proved they work. They, along with southwest and other lccs brough affordable airtravel to many travelers who would have otherwise been on the bus or a train.

And yes we have heard it 100 times that the 190 will be the fall of jetblue but you know what there were also just as many people that said the 380 wont fly... Everyone has the right to an opinion but back it with some good facts. And if you proven wrong take it like a man, dont try to dig up more dirt.

I personally wish everyone luck. It would be nice to see legacys stay around because there are certain amenities they provide that are unmatched. As far as inflight and custmer service goes jetblue looks for people to match their attitude but every company has their bad apples.

Working for jetblue I would need all my fingers and toes to count the people who " dont give a hoot" in JFK alone. There are also just as many that will bend over backwards to make your trip enjoyable. Just so you know there are ALOT of PanAm, TWA, AA, Delta employees here at jetblue starting new careers. The people make the airline.....
 
B707Stu
Topic Author
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Notbluejet (Reply 35):
There is no point to continue on. This must be the 100th argument of this nature. Personally I think Jetblue is a big thorn in the side of legacy carriers but they also have their own issues resolve.

All the legacy employees will for sure defend their carrier to the death. And I dont blame you, this is your company and they put bread on your table.

The LCC employees will be the same. The difference is JetBlue and many others introduced many innovations that some people dont agree with but the numbers have proved they work. They, along with southwest and other lccs brough affordable airtravel to many travelers who would have otherwise been on the bus or a train.

I wrote this thread purely from a marketing/business innovative perspective. The airline industry market, since deregulation, has shifted and wained. I didn't write this for a war but for hopeful thoughtful and insightful projections on where the market will take the industry. If we can't discuss market trends then it wouldn't be America.
 
BOS2LAF
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:21 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:56 pm

I forsee jetblue finding itself in a tricky situation (...for lack of better words) in the future.

From what I've heard, B6 had been VERY seriously looking into PIT, PHL, and CLT. So far WN has beat them to the punch in PIT and PHL, and theres some rumblings (how true they are, i dont know) that CLT is next on the radar for WN. Apparently they couldnt go into those cities after WN did due to some clause in Neeleman's non-compete agreement with WN, so basically B6 is in a race of sorts with WN right now.

B6 was also alledgedly VERY closely monitoring the proposed FL deal with ATA in MDW, because they were rumored to have had their name on the list for a gate or two... that is until the deal fell through and WN got a near-monopoly on MDW.

Not too many are aware of this, but WN has been a ROYAL pain in B6's ass.


In addition...
JFK is fast becoming a clusterf*ck for B6 given how often they are adding flights and cities. I'm not positive, but I believe I read somewhere that theyre going to do at T6 what ATA did at MDW and put in one of those temporary hallways with more gates on it (I think its referred to as the banana or something). The new T5 isnt set to open until 2008, and they're already at, if not over capacity at T6, how can they possibly handle 3 more years of growth?? Not to mention, their baggage system in T6 is already starting to feel the strain of what Neeleman likes to call "controlled expansion" (read: rapid growth).

Another HUGE mistake they made is scaling down the T5 design after 9-11, but of course, nobody knew what the future held at that time. Because of this, T5 will likely be opening at or near capacity in 2008. What does this mean for their growth after 2008??

Unless they make some serious changes in the future, they're gonna have to just say "Oh well, we're done growing at JFK" and call it quits for adding new flights and cities. Somehow I dont see them doing this, so they need to make changes, or they'll find themselves in some deep lav juice at JFK.


See what i meant by tricky situation? They're far from doomed, but they're certainly going to find themselves in a pickle unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat.
 
Beno
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:52 pm

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:47 pm

Quote:
When's the last time you saw f/a's eager to help people with their carry on luggage to the point they greeted people, brought them to their seats and placed their luggage above? When's the last time you actually experienced genuinely friendly crews

Anywhere outside of the USA.
 
FA4B6
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:00 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:53 pm

Quoting BOS2LAF (Reply 37):
Apparently they couldnt go into those cities after WN did due to some clause in Neeleman's non-compete agreement with WN, so basically B6 is in a race of sorts with WN right now.

This is absolutly silly. What would the clause be? "In case you ever start an airline you cannot fly to PHL PIT or CLT if Southwest has already started service to aforementioned airports"? I mean, come on.

Quoting BOS2LAF (Reply 37):
The new T5 isnt set to open until 2008, and they're already at, if not over capacity at T6, how can they possibly handle 3 more years of growth??

T6 isnt at capacity .. it's getting close, but there is still room at T6 for growth believe it or not. As well, JFK is not the only airport jetBlue has expansion plans for. There is the soon-to-be 11 gates at BOS and the "soon-to-be announced mystery focus city" that seems to be on the rumor mill as well as many other opportunities in the horizon for JetBlue and other places for these planes to go.

Quoting BOS2LAF (Reply 37):
Somehow I dont see them doing this, so they need to make changes, or they'll find themselves in some deep lav juice at JFK.

Armchair CEO alert!
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 21):
I said I don't think jetBlue will die because of it. But, are you telling me operating two types of aircraft isn't going to raise costs.

Well, there are some things you have to keep in mind about the E190's and JetBlue's use of them.

They will be operating what is arguably the most efficient and comfortable jet aircraft in its capacity range.

They will be running many routes that their competitors will be running with the smaller regional jets, which are more expensive and less comfortable for pax.

They will offer PTV's and what is generally considered to be better service.

So sure, the E190's will raise Jblue's costs, but they will still be superior in economics than their competitors.

JetBlue will be just fine.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
B707Stu
Topic Author
Posts: 893
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:15 pm

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:01 pm

Quoting Beno (Reply 38):
Quote:
When's the last time you saw f/a's eager to help people with their carry on luggage to the point they greeted people, brought them to their seats and placed their luggage above? When's the last time you actually experienced genuinely friendly crews

Anywhere outside of the USA.

Very true. But of course the JetBlue thread is about domestic US service. I'm not sure if you've visited lately but that type of service has long been gone. Though lately United is making some strong moves toward restoring it at a legacy carrier.
 
WDBRR
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:28 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:49 pm

Here is something to note.....Delta is dropping
JFK-RSW on 09/06/05, the only other airline
that flies this route is Jetblue !!!!
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1391
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:22 pm

Quoting Coa764 (Reply 28):
Fact is LLC's like Jetblue can offer such nice perks at such a low cost because the airline only caters to the select, profitable, routes were the planners feel the company will make money.

And the legacy airlines are charities? That is one of the most nonsensical arguments ever! It has been years since deregulation, any airline that is not selecting its routes on profitability deserves failure.

I find it extremely ironic that you should post this in a thread about jetBlue, considering they are just about to expand the definition of "select, profitable, routes" to markets much smaller then have been considered viable up to this point - with the adition of the E190.

Although I may be called a lunatic, it is not out of the realm of reason that jetBlue in a decade may be a well established, organized, popular and profitable network carrier - all that the legacy carriers want to be. To be honest, it would not surprise me in the least if they ordered the E170 or E175 at some point in the future.

mrocktor
 
Douglas7Seas
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 5:00 pm

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:36 pm

I cannot see a great deal of difference in service between the "legacy carriers" and Southwest. I have no experience with Jet Blue so...

Back in the day, it was an event to fly somewhere on UAL or AA or KLM. Not today. In my experience, the airlines crowd you on, give you very little service and then herd you off. The likes of Southwest poke fun at themselves while they go about their business, while the "legacies" just act surly.

I'll take 21st Century airline travel, such as it is, with a touch of humor, and leave that happy memories to the legacies.

John
Be different; Be nice.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting BOS2LAF (Reply 37):
Apparently they couldnt go into those cities after WN did due to some clause in Neeleman's non-compete agreement with WN, so basically B6 is in a race of sorts with WN right now.

This was in effect only after he left WN and before he started up B6, this is no longer in effect.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:55 pm

Quoting BOS2LAF (Reply 37):
B6 was also alledgedly VERY closely monitoring the proposed FL deal with ATA in MDW, because they were rumored to have had their name on the list for a gate or two... that is until the deal fell through and WN got a near-monopoly on MDW.

B6 has said numerous times that until they can fly into ORD they have no interest in MDW at this time.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Elagabal
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:40 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:16 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 7):
Secondly, if say all the legacy carriers went down, how are you going to get anywhere, sure the LCC's can currently get you domestically and maybe a few international (mexico and caribbean) but what about Europe and Asia, the LCC's offer little if any benefits or services other then a seat.

Whoever said you had to fly a US carrier when travelling internationally?  Wink International carriers certainly compete with one another - and this will increase with the rise in number of open-skies agreements, especially US-EU (when they finally hop to).

As for benefits, services, prices and seats, charter companies such as Monarch have been doing just fine, thank you in Europe now for decades. Let's see what Zoom gets up to before we write off the concept of low-cost international travel.
 
jetbluefan1
Posts: 2870
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:39 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:19 pm

From what I've heard, B6 had been VERY seriously looking into PIT, PHL, and CLT. So far WN has beat them to the punch in PIT and PHL, and theres some rumblings (how true they are, i dont know) that CLT is next on the radar for WN. Apparently they couldnt go into those cities after WN did due to some clause in Neeleman's non-compete agreement with WN, so basically B6 is in a race of sorts with WN right now.

The non-compete agreement expired years ago. That's when Neeleman was with WestJet. As of now, he's allowed to fly his airline anywhere he wants. Also, while JetBlue does have these cities on its radar, there was no "serious" looking. B6 has a lot to do at JFK and BOS, so why would they expand into new territory that they'd have to grow at extraordinary rates just to maintain (see: keep WN out of the market)? The source is false. JetBlue can still expand to these markets through BOS and JFK without stepping on WN's toes.

B6 was also alledgedly VERY closely monitoring the proposed FL deal with ATA in MDW, because they were rumored to have had their name on the list for a gate or two... that is until the deal fell through and WN got a near-monopoly on MDW.

They were "looking" at MDW, but no matter what was said, they wanted and still want ORD.

Not too many are aware of this, but WN has been a ROYAL pain in B6's ass.

The only thing that I can think of was the no-compete agreement which expired before JetBlue even began service. So that's even a non-issue.

In addition...
JFK is fast becoming a clusterf*ck for B6 given how often they are adding flights and cities. I'm not positive, but I believe I read somewhere that theyre going to do at T6 what ATA did at MDW and put in one of those temporary hallways with more gates on it (I think its referred to as the banana or something). The new T5 isnt set to open until 2008, and they're already at, if not over capacity at T6, how can they possibly handle 3 more years of growth?? Not to mention, their baggage system in T6 is already starting to feel the strain of what Neeleman likes to call "controlled expansion" (read: rapid growth).


While T6 is very busy, it's still not at capacity. They just added another gate and will soon have a temporary hold room at T5 (6 gates I think). Another baggage belt is being added at gate 17 so no worries there either.

Another HUGE mistake they made is scaling down the T5 design after 9-11, but of course, nobody knew what the future held at that time. Because of this, T5 will likely be opening at or near capacity in 2008. What does this mean for their growth after 2008??

What are you talking about?! Their new terminal will have 26 gates with the potential for 36. They can offer at least 300 flights with the option being completed, so that's more than enough space for them.

See what i meant by tricky situation? They're far from doomed, but they're certainly going to find themselves in a pickle unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat.

While JetBlue's future is anything but "easy," I think that they are well prepared to overcome anything foreseeable and even some unforseeable issues. Their E190's will give them flexibility and the ability to expand to smaller markets. Their new terminal is underway and near-term projects are soon-to-be-started at T6. Not only will they be expanding from JFK, but also BOS -- an airport with very little LCC competition (just like JFK).

JetBluefan1
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: How Man Legacy Carriers Will JetBlue Take Down?

Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:23 pm

B707Stu...your assumption that none of the legacies offer the service or friendly/helpful crews that you experienced on JetBlue is just wrong. For example take a look at this thread praising a member's flights on United. His anecdotal stories are just as powerful as yours.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2191093/
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!