aerokiwi
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Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:49 pm

So I bowl on up to the KLM checkin at Heathrow and was dutifully asked if I would like a window seat. As a rule I usually take an aisle but for such a short hop to AMS, I thought sure, why not? Would be nice to have a view for a change. I get my seat allocation - 6F. Sounds good to me.

But low and behold a rather tatty looking 737-300 pulls into the gate and it turns out I'm seated in the one row of the aircraft that for some reason has no window whatsoever.

So I have a couple of questions...

1. Why offer a window seat in a row where there isn't a window (the checkin person announcing that it would be a good view)??

2. Why on earth is there a missing window on a 733 of all types??!! What purpose does this serve? I realise on longer haul/larger aircraft they take windows out where the toilet or galley is positioned, but on a 733!!

Incidentally, when I confronted the flight attendant about the ridiculousness of this, she leaned against the opposite seat and the entire side panel from the armrest down fell off. The plane was in absolute crummy shape and she was right to be embarrassed by it.

This may sound like a rant and it is, but could anyone answer my querries? Particularly number 2.
 
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breiz
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:05 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Thread starter):
1. Why offer a window seat in a row where there isn't a window (the checkin person announcing that it would be a good view)??

Well, for most employees at the check-in desk, to work with an airline is just a job. They have no idea about the type of plane you are going to fly with save for its generic name.
Very seldom are you told that there is no window on that row, that the lockers at smaller there (high wing ac), that there is no seat in front of you (some B373 lay-outs in business), that the seat will not recline (last row), that the pitch is bigger (safety exit seats), that you will look at the separation curtain, ...
You have to find out by yourself, or be lucky to talk with an employee who's also an aviation fan.
Of course, all this could be avoided by information provided by the check-in software. But the airlines want all their seats to be used.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:06 pm

The "missing" windows on the 737-300 and on, is for the air conditioning system.

Some 767-300s have windowless seats as well.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:12 pm

Granted not all employees give a rats about the plane, but when you're offered one on the basis that it will be a nice view and a change from your regular seating requests, then you gotta wonder. I shouldn't have to rely on luck. Or is that the new KLM way?

What other airlines have this missing window on their 737s?
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:13 pm

Quoting Bluewave 707 (Reply 2):
The "missing" windows on the 737-300 and on, is for the air conditioning system.

Actually, it is a completely different reason. You will notice that the missing windows are at the exact spot where the engine blades are. The fuselage is reinforced in that area to prevent engine blade strike.
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
glidepath73
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:14 pm

Was your seat in the row nr. 8????

This happened to me once! A 737-400. It seems there going the air pipes for the ac system through. Anyway, it should be marked in the check in computer system as a non window seat!

So if you go on the backfuselage, you'll find definitely a window on your window seat!

Regards,
Patrick
Aviation! That rocks...
 
N587NK
Posts: 243
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:16 pm

Quoting Breiz (Reply 1):
Well, for most employees at the check-in desk, to work with an airline is just a job. They have no idea about the type of plane you are going to fly with save for its generic name.

I used to be an agent for a UAX carrier and a NW Airlink carrier so i can only speak for those to computer systems. But as an agent when you look at the seat map on the computer it will show you what seats are available. It shows window, center, aisle. As an agent if the computer is showing 6F as a window seat and a pax ask for a window seat thats what you would assign. Unless you (the agent) have actually flown on this aircraft type and sat in that exact seat you wouldnt know that although its showing in the computer as a window seat, it really isnt
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:17 pm

I was in 6F of a 737-300 and have never been on this type with a missing window before. And I've been on a lot of airlines' 733s, though never KLMs.

Then to maximise customler satisfaction the few exceptions that exist to this window seat rule should be known to ground staff. It's only fair on the passenger.

I tell ya, the lady on the other side (6A) was even less impressed.

[Edited 2005-06-28 12:19:19]
 
N587NK
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:18 pm

Every airline has a slightly different configuration, even though it may be the same A/C type
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:23 pm

Again, it is NOT for the AC, it is for the engine blade strike! Actually, I challenge you all to show me ONE 737 in the database that does NOT have the missing window!
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
sevenair
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:26 pm

i totally sympathise with your, its not nice to think you are getting awindow seat, only to have nothing to look at except a wall, it happened to me on an md83-the very back row, was truely awful ,and extremely loud, and that was asking for a window.

I agree that most employees dont know/dont want to know, so it is up to ourselves to know what a/c may be operating, and which seats dont have windows. If there is more than one type on the route, ie row X on a 737, row Y on an f100 and ensure that you dont get any X or Y rows.

Check out seatguru.com, but it is mainly aimed at long hauls out to/from USA. But some generic principles can be applied regardless of location.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:28 pm

As the perfectly informed enthusiast you seem to be you should have known yourself that this row does not have a window... Wink
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:45 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 4):
Actually, it is a completely different reason. You will notice that the missing windows are at the exact spot where the engine blades are. The fuselage is reinforced in that area to prevent engine blade strike.

Bullshit.

The reason why B737 from the -300 upwards don't have a window in front of the wing root is that this is where the two riser ducts (one on each side), which move the conditioned air from the snake pit (mixing bay) between the center wing box and the forward cargo hold upwards to the lengthwide distribution duct in the cabin ceiling are located. There is no strengthened fuselage in this or any other position. The engines are designed to contain any blade failure.

On the B737-200 there were instead of two big fiber glass ducts several smaller hoses between the windows, so that on the B737-200 there was a complete row of windows.

Jan

[Edited 2005-06-28 12:47:44]

[Edited 2005-06-28 12:48:11]

[Edited 2005-06-28 12:48:33]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
planemannyc
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:53 pm

I suggest that a.net should have a section that is updated by a.nutters that has diagrams of a/c with good viewing seats (and horrible ones). Like http://www.seatguru.com but with the planespotter in mind. We can enhance the page by having links from seats to photos taken from that particular seat.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:21 pm

All B733s to B739s have a window missing on each side for wires, cables etc.
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Derik737
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:53 am

RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:37 pm

Jan is correct. The ECS ducts are installed in the locations asked about. It's too bad that they take away a "window" seat.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:49 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Thread starter):
Why on earth is there a missing window on a 733 of all types

Air Conditioning Riser Ducts on Either side pass through that location.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 4):

Actually, it is a completely different reason. You will notice that the missing windows are at the exact spot where the engine blades are. The fuselage is reinforced in that area to prevent engine blade strike.

On a Turbofan  Smile I've worked on B737s I've yet to see Fuselage reinforcement for avoiding Blade detachment on a B737 mounted Turbofan.
This is not a Turboprop.
The only reinforcement for Blade detachment is the Wing Tank Access panels.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
On the B737-200 there were instead of two big fiber glass ducts several smaller hoses between the windows, so that on the B737-200 there was a complete row of windows

The Riser ducts on the B732s are from the Right side & are narrow ducts leading to the overhead distribution ducts.
BTW the B732 has a Two wider riser ducts,one on each side,whereas the B734s have totally Three.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 14):
All B733s to B739s have a window missing on each side for wires, cables etc.

For Air Conditioning Riser Duct/Ducts.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Xkorpyoh
Posts: 727
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:33 pm

in a related note, why does DL 767's also have some windowless window seats while other carriers with 767 (like AA) have all the windows where they should be?

for example:
missing windows in row 13, 18 & 20:
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Del...elta_Airlines_Boeing_767-300_D.php

All windows in there (for row 6, you need to lean, i guess because of the additional space in business)
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ame...erican_Airlines_Boeing_767-300.php

so what is the need of DL not having all the windows when AA, with the same plane type, has them?
 
G-KIRAN
Posts: 710
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2000 1:55 am

RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:32 pm

The trick I use is to ask for a wondow seat near the back. That way there is no chance of getting a blocked up window. Only one aircraft has a blocked up window near the back, and those are Malaysia Airlines 747s. The 3rd from last row on the right hand side has its window blocked.
 
BNAflyer78
Posts: 256
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 7):
I was in 6F of a 737-300 and have never been on this type with a missing window before. And I've been on a lot of airlines' 733s, though never KLMs.

I fly US quite often and avoid row 6 on their 733's due to a lack of a window.

Ben
Long live the Widget!
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:21 pm

All 747 have conditioned air riser ducts blocking three windows on each side over the wing at fuselage stations 1110, 1150, 1190.

Contrary to what is shown on seatguru, AS 73G have 9A and 9F blocked by the riser ducts. This is due to a seat repitch not reflected on the website.
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:29 pm

I was once put in a window seat on an LH 321 that was the seat next to the 3R door, which didn't have much in the way of a window. That was a bit frustrating, but it was only a short flight, so it wasn't a huge issue.

What I really hate is the seat in the 747 that is next to the A/C duct. Fortunately I've never been right next to it, but I've been one row ahead or behind on occasion. An 8+ hour flight in a window seat with no window?  yuck 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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IFixPlanes
Posts: 239
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:33 am

Here are some drawings:



Ingo
never tell an engineer he is wrong ;-)
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
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RE: Windowless Window Seats Frustrations

Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:21 pm

Hey why don't you try the CRJ900 where every row except for the last two and a few in the front, the seats are positioned so you are looking at the space between the two windows, so it might as well be a windowles plane. So basically the windows are located adjacent to the seatbacks, very annoying. I'm not sure but this applies only to the left side of the cabin.

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