Avianca
Topic Author
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YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:18 am

why has yvr just 3 european mainline-airlines? BA,LH,KL (yvr has some charters too condor, thomas cook, martinair) but also only from the countrys where the first mentioned airlines are from.

why are there no flights with af, sk, os, az for example, ?

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting Avianca (Thread starter):
why has yvr just 3 european mainline-airlines? BA,LH,KL (yvr has some charters too condor, thomas cook, martinair) but also only from the countrys where the first mentioned airlines are from.

why are there no flights with af, sk, os, az for example, ?

It's not that big a market. There is a lot of local traffic to London and Amsterdam, though.

Vancouver's European service (and international service in general) is excellent for a city of it's size. Few cities the size of Vancouver have so much inter-continental service.

[Edited 2005-06-29 00:43:36]
a.
 
Avianca
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
It's not that big a market. There is a lot of local traffic to London and Amsterdam, though.

I understand that YVR is not on the toplist of AZ, but for AF ? CDG is totally underserved from YVR, i think they are getting only some flights on AirTransat...
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
I understand that YVR is not on the toplist of AZ, but for AF ? CDG is totally underserved from YVR, i think they are getting only some flights on AirTransat...

Low-yield. Air Canada has tried YVR-CDG in the past.

And, as I said, Vancouver is very well served for a city of its size to Europe. Very, very well served.
a.
 
Avianca
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
Low-yield. Air Canada has tried YVR-CDG in the past.

And, as I said, Vancouver is very well served for a city of its size to Europe. Very, very well served.

intresting to hear that, because flights with ba, kl and lh are mostly fully boked, also in premium cabin.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Boeing744
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:20 am

Wish we had more European airlines, but FRA, LHR, AMS are quite good considering FRA and LHR are served 2+ times a day each.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
And, as I said, Vancouver is very well served for a city of its size to Europe. Very, very well served.

Vancouver is actually quite large if you consider the size and population of the outlying areas (Surrey, Richmond, Abbotsford, Delta, White Rock etc.), as well as Van. Island and Northern Washington. True we don't need a lot more cities but I think CDG would be nice. Although AC tried it, it may do better with AF good for business travelers connecting in Europe etc.
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:28 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Vancouver is actually quite large if you consider the size and population of the outlying areas (Surrey, Richmond, Abbotsford, Delta, White Rock etc.), as well as Van. Island and Northern Washington.

All of British Colombia has less people than Miami, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta, among other cities.

Nothing against Vancouver. The fact that it has so much intercontinental service for a city of its size is quite a distinction. The city definitley feels bigger than it is.
a.
 
Boeing744
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
The city definitley feels bigger than it is.

I agree with you there, very spread out.
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 7):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
The city definitley feels bigger than it is.

I agree with you there, very spread out.

That's not what I meant. Vancouver is very dense and has a "big city" cosmopolitan feel that you won't get in US cities of similar size, like Cleveland, St. Louis, and Kansas City, and even cities more than double Vancouver's size, like Houston, Dallas, and Detroit.
a.
 
DYK
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:33 am

"why has yvr just 3 European mainline-airlines? BA,LH,KL (YVR has some charters too condor, thomas cook, martinair) but also only from the countrys where the first mentioned airlines are from.

why are there no flights with af, sk, os, az for example, ?"

to answer your question " Canadian Government and the CTA"

Destinations Vancouver needs: CDG/ZRH/DUB maybe MOW.

CDG may have been low yield 8 years ago but I think some things have changed and more biz traffic in and out of YVR into Europe compared to 8 years ago
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
2travel2know
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:36 am

YVR - MAN could be nice to see someday.
Who would venture in such a route, I don't know.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:41 am

As people above have said before YVR is just far too small to sustain longhaul services to Europe - if I were AC I'd get them to fly to YYZ or YUL and then fly onto Europe, and there are no nearby cities to feed off. In reality it is also too close to SEA to capture any of the market south of the border.

YVR is doing well as an Asian hub (big Asian population) and of course us Aussies with the AC services to SYD.
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
ENCRJ
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:50 am

I traveled a lot to YVR when I was a child. I remember
AF operated a flight to Paris at that time (86/87). Am I right?
 
CPAir 4 life
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:53 am

Just on the LHR route today

3 x AC flights

2 x BA flights

I have seen zoom flying to places like glasgow, manchester and Air transat, my travel to gatwick.

Lots of flights to the U.K.
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:23 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 10):
YVR - MAN could be nice to see someday.
Who would venture in such a route, I don't know.

Already flown by Air Transat, 2x weekly.

Sundays routed YVR-MAN-GLA-YVR and Thursdays routes YVR-YYC-MAN-YYC-YVR.
a.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:34 am

Vancouver only has like 2.5 milkion people. But there are like 10 daily flights from YVR to europe. Its very well served for a city that size, i mean, it gets more traffic then Cincinnati wihich is a big Delta hub and in terms of flights BOG and LIM (BOG gets about 4 daily and LIM like 3) and the cities have about 8 million inhabitants each...(i know were poorer but just to make an example)
 
LAXintl
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:46 am

Besides being a relatively small population base one needs to remember the market is also quite seasonal with a strong summer peak and a lengthy winter valley. As a result of this European yields from British Colombia are marginal at best.
If anything like mentioned by others, YVR is actually overserved, particularly with connections to London which on their own exceed what would be expected from similar sized North American cities.

As a comparison look at Seattle just to the south of Vancouver. With a metro population of 3.5 million people it is only serviced by 3 daily European flights. BA to LHR, SK to CPH and NW to AMS.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BigGSFO
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 11):
In reality it is also too close to SEA to capture any of the market south of the border.

Is there a lot of cross border passengers going to YVR from Seattle and vice versa? Are fares YVR-LHR lower than SEA-LHR as a whole? It seems YVR has more of an intertnational presence even though the Seattle metro area has more people.

Would that be because YVR is Canada's only west coast gateway?
 
DYK
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:07 am

"Besides being a relatively small population base one needs to remember the market is also quite seasonal with a strong summer peak and a lengthy winter valley. As a result of this European yields from British Colombia are marginal at best.
If anything like mentioned by others, YVR is actually overserved, particularly with connections to London which on their own exceed what would be expected from similar sized North American cities.

As a comparison look at Seattle just to the south of Vancouver. With a metro population of 3.5 million people it is only serviced by 3 daily European flights. BA to LHR, SK to CPH and NW to AMS"

Very interesting remark but not sure it is the case. The lengthy winter valley is old news as the winter valley has gone from 6 months to a period between Mid November and Mid December. I think one would see this if you flew out of Vancouver even in January or Feb that seat can be hard to find. There are large amount of Europeans which spend there skiing vacation in WEstern Canada and the flights are usually packed with skiers. Also despite its small population base you have many Europeans/Australians/SOuth Africans that commute or live part of the year in Vancouver, Also Vancouver has a very large ethnic population particularly Iranian and Indians which typically vacation in there countries in Jan, Feb, Mar. Not to seem sensitive but I think to many of you out there underestimate Vancouver!
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
squared
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
If anything like mentioned by others, YVR is actually overserved, particularly with connections to London which on their own exceed what would be expected from similar sized North American cities.

Generally speaking, Canadian cities have more flights to Europe than comparable-sized American Cities. It's not the fact that they are overserved, but rather the links between Canada and Europe are stronger than US-Europe links.

For instance YYC, which has a population of around 1 million, certainly has more flights to Europe (FRA, LHR) than OKC a similarly sized city.

Cities like YYT (pop. 170,000) have non-stop flights to LHR, granted the flight originates in YHZ (pop. 360,000), but still, the point stands.

In general, I believe some are underestimating YVR's potential. But at the same time I think it's unlikely YVR will get a flight to CDG anytime soon.

SQuared
 
2travel2know
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:04 pm

One must take into account that for many flying to a Canadian city via a US hub is - to say the least, specially now - a hassle.
There's a demand for flights to Canada that don't go via USA.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Already flown by Air Transat, 2x weekly.
Sundays routed YVR-MAN-GLA-YVR and Thursdays routes YVR-YYC-MAN-YYC-YVR.

Yes, MAN is served from YVR, but do Air Transat twice-weekly passengers fit the passenger profile of those flying daily/almost-daily on BA, KL, LH, AF ?

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 11):
YVR is doing well as an Asian hub (big Asian population) and of course us Aussies with the AC services to SYD.

The aussies I saw having to go thru US inmigration and customs @ YVR in order to fly to SYD on AC because the stop @ HNL, weren't that thrilled about AC service to SYD via HNL, regardless if the US doesn't require aussie passport holders US visas.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:07 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 20):
The aussies I saw having to go thru US inmigration and customs @ YVR in order to fly to SYD on AC because the stop @ HNL, weren't that thrilled about AC service to SYD via HNL, regardless if the US doesn't require aussie passport holders US visas.

Pre-clearing US customs in Canada is a joke, even post-9/11.
a.
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:23 pm

Quoting SQuared (Reply 19):
Generally speaking, Canadian cities have more flights to Europe than comparable-sized American Cities. It's not the fact that they are overserved, but rather the links between Canada and Europe are stronger than US-Europe links.

That's a very small part of the equation, if even true.

It mostly has to do with the fact that Canada has fewer dense population centers and that the US has a lot more.

Calgary, for example, is a small city, though it is the heart of the Middle Proviences and the key transportation hub for the area.

Canada has only two large trans-Atlantic gateways - Montreal and Toronto. Then you have a few daily flights from Vancouver and Calgary, the daily London flights to Toronto and St. John's, and the rest is all holiday flights.

If Calgary were located in the triangle between Dallas, Chicago, and Denver, London passengers would have to connect too*.

*Okay, maybe not the best example. Since Calgary is a huge oil town, they would probably at least have one trans-Atlantic flight on it's own merit, but I think one can get my gist.

[Edited 2005-06-29 05:25:00]
a.
 
ACDC8
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 5):
Wish we had more European airlines, but FRA, LHR, AMS are quite good considering FRA and LHR are served 2+ times a day each.

Who flies the second FRA flight? I only recall LH493. Or did you count charters as well (since they're only seasonal)?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ETStar
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:54 pm

Something to remember is that YVR is already served by airlines that belong to all three alliances, and as you know, they codeshare with eachother and eliminate the need to compete if it's not required. BA does it on its own to LHR (did it with CP), KL is there to AMS, and Air Canada goes to FRA with LH, London on its own metal but also with bmi's code etc. Sometimes if you see the ARR/DEP screens, you will see up to four flights codesharing on a single AC flight, like SAS and bmi and UA and LH. So really, almost no competition, only adequate space, and then rake in the dough.

As for SAS not serving YVR, it already lands at SEA, which is within close proximity, and there is codesharing with AC. AF owns KL, so there. Zurich is served by Balair or whatever outfit took over. JMC and Condor recently upped their services, which is cool. Please don't flame if I don't know JMC's current name, cause European charter airlines change names like underwear.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
Pre-clearing US customs in Canada is a joke, even post-9/11.

How is it a joke? Care to elaborate? I don't remember 'laughing' at any of the Canada-based US immigration stations, namely YVR, YYC and YYZ.
 
ACB777
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:20 pm

If AC got the 787, would a YVR-CDG route a few times a week in the summer be profitable?
I believe that LH should increase seat capacity in the summer. Every May, my parents fly LH to FRA, and the plane is completely full. The number of seats on LH flights in the summer seem to run months in advance. My parents have to book nine months in advance for a flight to FRA. Could YVR become a LH A380 destination for the summer season? Also, in December, due to the large number of South Asians flying to DEL/BOM via FRA, would a 747 be profitable?
 
DYK
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:15 am

My prediction next 5 years, we will see year round flight to Europe

YVR-CDG either AC/TN/AF
YVR-DUS with LT
YVR-MUC with LH
YVR-MOW with SU

possbly
YVR-DUB with EI
YVR-REK with FI
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
MAH4546
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting DYK (Reply 26):
YVR-DUS with LT

Already flown.

Quoting DYK (Reply 26):
YVR-MUC with LH

Attempeted in the summer of 2004. Good loads, terrible yields. Did not resume.

Quoting DYK (Reply 26):
YVR-MOW with SU

Will never happen, especially with Aeroflot at Seattle.

Quoting DYK (Reply 26):
possbly
YVR-DUB with EI
YVR-REK with FI



Let them worry about going to Toronto first.
a.
 
ACDC8
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
Quoting DYK (Reply 26):
YVR-DUS with LT

Already flown.

I think he meant year round and not just seasonal.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
flyyul
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:22 am

LTU doesnt fly year-round to anywhere in North America safe for South Florida.
 
YULMRS
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting DYK (Reply 26):
YVR-CDG either AC/TN/AF

No, KLM is already flying it from AMS ... AF won't fly from CDG, AC already has flights to CDG from YYZ and YUL, enough for them.

May be a service to MUC (LH) or Virgin to LHR, but i think YVR won't have a lot more of european services ...
To any North American carrier, send us a regular flight in MRS !!!!!
 
STARalliance24
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:03 am

I think they might have Emirates come to Vancouver too. Correct me if I'm wrong.  Smile
 
aircanada333
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:14 am

I think South African Airways is planning to go to YVR via LHR too. If they do, I think they will start in 2006.
De-icing RULZ!!!
 
flyyul
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:45 am

Oh cmon now.

South African to YVR? Some rumours are just way too silly.
 
GLAGAZ
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:52 am

What about Zoom?

YVR to GLA,LGW,MAN

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:11 am

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 30):
May be a service to MUC (LH) or Virgin to LHR, but i think YVR won't have a lot more of european services ...

what about a 7/7 service with AC 767(200 or 300) ?? to MUC
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:13 am

I travelled last week on DE flight from YVR to FRA. flight was fully booked also the flight FRA-YVR 2 weeks ago was full.

The LH flight is a horror for non-revenue passengers, almost impossible to travel on this flight in summer.

regards
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
STARalliance24
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting GLAGAZ (Reply 34):
What about Zoom?

YVR to GLA,LGW,MAN

I think Air Transat goes to one of those destinations, but I'm not sure.
 
aircanada333
Posts: 458
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:19 am

[quote=Avianca,reply=35]what about a 7/7 service with AC 767(200 or 300) ?? to MUC[

AC is already going to MUC from Toronto I dont think that they are planning to go from YVR.
De-icing RULZ!!!
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:29 am

Quoting Aircanada333 (Reply 38):
AC is already going to MUC from Toronto I dont think that they are planning to go from YVR.

yes but yyz is a totally another storry than yvr.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
aircanada333
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:30 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 37):
I think Air Transat goes to one of those destinations, but I'm not sure.

From YVR Air Transat is going to FRA, LGW, AMS, MAN and GLA.
De-icing RULZ!!!
 
aircanada333
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 39):
yes but yyz is a totally another storry than yvr.

Yes this is true.
De-icing RULZ!!!
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:54 am

More flights for winter 2010 maybe? Yes, for the Olympic Games... Some flights from MUC, ZRH, OSL and other snowy places might be expectable, although I think they would be charter flights. Any thoughts? Did that happen in 2002 at SLC?
When I doubt... go running!
 
ACDC8
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:55 am

There's alot of potential traffic between YVR and Europe in the summer months, but in the winter, things completely drop. With the exception of the main line carriers (AC, BA, KL, LH) of course. The LHR, FRA, AMS flights are pretty well booked solid year round. Mind you, a lot of those pax are connecting on to India and not staying in Europe.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Avianca
Topic Author
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 42):
More flights for winter 2010 maybe? Yes, for the Olympic Games... Some flights from MUC, ZRH, OSL and other snowy places might be expectable, although I think they would be charter flights. Any thoughts? Did that happen in 2002 at SLC?

I can imagine many many charter flights for 2010, daily extra flights from europe and asia.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Sea744
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:01 am

Some of the traffic from YVR originates and terminates in Seattle as well (there are many flights and bus and rail service between the two cities). BA, NW, and SK have flights to Europe in addition to the flights to and from YVR. Rumor has it that AF is looking at SEA-CDG. Seattle has a much larger metro area than YVR as well (about 3.4 million vs. 2.5 million). Because of this, YVR gets some traffic from the Seattle area since it's only a 2.5 hour drive between the two cities.
 
Sea744
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:03 am

Oh and I forgot that SU has flights from SEA to Moscow as well  Wink
 
ACDC8
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Sea744 (Reply 45):
YVR gets some traffic from the Seattle area since it's only a 2.5 hour drive between the two cities.

What about the border crossing? That alone can take up to 3 hours. Or do buses get priority?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
DYK
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RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:31 am

Some very interesting comments but I really do think Vancouver is underestimated and underserved particularly from Europe. There has been some interest in Vancouver recently from carriers such as China Southern, Lanchile, TACA, Vietnam Airlines, Air Tahiti Nui, Air New Zealand, Thai, Aer Lingus, Emirates, Jet Airways and yes Air France. Time will only tell what airlines will eventually offer service into Vancouver and I am sure the Olympics will only make Vancouver more attractive.
As far as the European carriers are concerned, profits out of Vancouver are no longer marginal and KLm, DLH, BA do very well out of Vancouver. I thinks there are some things to consider about Vancouver future potential.
- very large ethnic community
- net migration into the city from overseas is growing at double digits particularly from Asia and Eastern Europe
- becoming more popular as a connection airport
-economics of the area is booming
-it is beaching a major gateway to Asia which will inevitably attract carriers from Central and South America as well as Europe
-Canadian Government is opening up to the notion of a more liberalized Transportation Act
-tourism is booming almost year round
-convention traffic is scheduled to grow double digits over the next 5-10years
-location

Carrier I can not see introducing flights to Vancouver:

Qantos, South African, All Nippon, Alitalia, Virgin,

P.S. LH did much better than expected on the YVR-MUC flight last year, my understanding is they are expected to reintroduce MUC at one point and the aircraft which would have been slotted for MUC-YVR is on a MUC-DEL route this summer?
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ
 
Sea744
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:57 am

RE: YVR And Flights To Europe...

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:39 am

I have never spent 3 hours at the border. People go to SEA all the time. There is even direct bus service between the two airports 4-5 times per day.