c172
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5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:25 pm

While at LHR I witnessed a classic 747 with 5 engines. The extra engine was located near the port wing root. Can anyone clue me in?
 
glidepath73
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:28 pm

This was a spare part engine for an other a/c. The 747 has a fifth pylon hardpoint to hang a fifth engine on the wing. (Just for transport reasons)

Regards,
Patrick
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flybeq400
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:29 pm

That is the method for shuttling extra (spare) engines for planes which need a replacement for maintenance reasons in a location without spares on site, as far as I know.
 
c172
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:30 pm

This one was running, though. Exhaust and heat and everything.
 
OHLHD
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:31 pm

747 can transport a spare engine under its wing. If you search you will find some pictures.

Here is one.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/635769/M/

Like this it is much cheaper to transport it instead of sending via a cargoplane.
 
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:32 pm

They were at one point testing the A380 using a 747, as its the closest thing around to the A380. Also sometimes they whack a 5th engine on the wing to ferry it around.


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CV747
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:32 pm

It's a poded spare engine.
Boeing and Douglas have offered this option to transport spare engines for long time. I have pictures of 707, DC-8 and 747 with a poded spare engine.

It's rarely used but looks really cool.
 
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:36 pm

I came, I saw, I Concorde! RIP Michael Jackson
 
FrancoBlanco
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:38 pm

Sorry I have to say that, but the spare engine definitely cannot be running in this position.

Maybe you just confused the exhaust heat from the other engines or the APU.

Sebastian
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jeb94
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:04 pm

Um...hate to say it but no way could it be running. There aren't any fuel hookups for the podded engine afterall.
 
777ER
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:13 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pod is only on classic B747s, no B744s have it
 
UAL747
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:18 pm

You're wrong....


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UpperDeck79
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:26 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but why couldn't you just put the 5th engine in the cargo hold...? Doesn't it produce a lot of extra drag while hanging from the wing?
AY and ANA rock!
 
David L
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:26 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
You're wrong....

Are you sure it's not a Classic ferrying an engine and a winglet for a 400?  Smile
 
RichardPrice
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 12):
Pardon my ignorance, but why couldn't you just put the 5th engine in the cargo hold...? Doesn't it produce a lot of extra drag while hanging from the wing?

THe engine is essentially a straight through thing, the air jsut goes straight through it so the drag isnt as high as you might think.

Putting it into the cargo bay means you loose that cargo space for paying customers.
 
jeb94
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:39 pm

That and the passenger carrying 747 doesn't have a door big enough to fit an engine of that size into it. They do suffer a drag penalty (the core and fan do create drag) but its cheaper than chartering a cargo aircraft that has a large enough door to fit the engine in.
 
HT
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:50 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 12):
Pardon my ignorance, but why couldn't you just put the 5th engine in the cargo hold...? Doesn't it produce a lot of extra drag while hanging from the wing?

Sure it does produce a lot of drag, but this procedure was established a long time ago taking the following points into consideration:

  • Usually the spare engine needed a some airport was attached to an a/c flying this route anyhow (i.e. carrying pax or similar) - so it was not sent onto an almost empty ferrying flight.
  • By the time the big engines for the likes of B747 / DC10 / L-1011 were introduced, reliability of these engines was considerably lower than nowadays. So it was much more likely that an a/c got stranded at some remote spot (w/o proper m/x) and that a spare engine had to be flown in.
  • Back then, dedicated cargo-a/c usually were not able to accomodate a spare engine for a B747 w/o some kind of dismanteling due to size restrictions. Therefore it was easier (and faster & cheaper) to put that engine to be transported under the wing.

Today, this procedure is used much less. Engines have become much more reliable; engine shops have been set up at more airports - and not every airline stops flying its B744 once one engines quits in flight, but continues its transatlantic crossing to LHR  Smile
-HT
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UpperDeck79
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:51 pm

Quoting Jeb94 (Reply 15):
That and the passenger carrying 747 doesn't have a door big enough to fit an engine of that size into it.

Ah, there's the answer! Thank you.  Smile
AY and ANA rock!
 
777ER
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:53 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):

Thank you
 
atco2b
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:55 pm

Can they be used on flights with pax?
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NZ1
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 10):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the pod is only on classic B747s, no B744s have it

Fifth pod is available on all 747 series, but only RR engines can be fifth podded, as far as I know.

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 12):
Pardon my ignorance, but why couldn't you just put the 5th engine in the cargo hold...? Doesn't it produce a lot of extra drag while hanging from the wing?

It won't fit through the door opening.

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SA7700
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:12 pm

SA ferrying a 5th engine from MIA on the 744.


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HAWK21M
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:02 pm


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Engine Ferry.  bigthumbsup  Ideal way unless you have a B747F.
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B747-437B
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:07 pm

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 20):
Fifth pod is available on all 747 series, but only RR engines can be fifth podded, as far as I know.

Not true. Air India has ferried JT9Ds as 5th pods multiple times that I am aware of, including on the ill-fated AI 182 in 1985.
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akelley728
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting Atco2b (Reply 19):
Can they be used on flights with pax?

Yes
 
lhrstu
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:07 pm

Does anyone konow if the A380 will have the same capability?
 
whitehatter
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting Lhrstu (Reply 25):
Does anyone konow if the A380 will have the same capability?

I wouldn't think so, fifth podding is a practice which was developed in the 1960s and 70s when there was not as much civilian heavy lift capability around.

The Vickers VC-10 can also do podding but the spare Conway engine is enclosed in an aerodynamic case and mounted underneath.

Nowadays the Antonovs, 747F and even civilian Hercules aircraft do engine ferrying. There is also a considerable increase in interline spares swapping so a stricken aircraft can often be fitted with a motor supplied by another airline if available locally and faster. This is complicated by the more recent factor of engine leasing being separated from airframe in many cases.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
AR1300
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:48 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
You're wrong....

Why??Could be only windmilling.Sure the fans will spin with all that air going thru them....

Mike
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ebj1248650
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:49 pm

This one was running, though. Exhaust and heat and everything.

I suspect that the heat you saw was exhaust from the nearest running engine or set of engines. Wind can blow that around under and airplane where you can be misled as to what's really going on.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
citationjet
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:50 pm

The 5 engine 747, not to be confused with the 3 engine 747.  Wink


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speedbirdegjj
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 27):
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11):
You're wrong....

Why??Could be only windmilling.Sure the fans will spin with all that air going thru them....

Mike

UAL747 was referring to Reply 10 questioning whether this applied to -400's or only classics!!.
 
F14D4ever
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting Jeb94 (Reply 15):
They do suffer a drag penalty (the core and fan do create drag)

Take a close look at the SA and Qantas engine ferry pix; they both have a toric insert to block flow into the core. Now look at the Aer Lingus ferry; it has a hemispheric insert, completely covering the spinner, to block flow into the core. These devices greatly reduce drag. They not only reduce friction drag due to flow through the core, but they effectively reduce capture area, causing more air to 'spill' out around the nacelle rather than entering the inlet.
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drinkstrolley
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 17):
Quoting Jeb94 (Reply 15):
That and the passenger carrying 747 doesn't have a door big enough to fit an engine of that size into it.

What about the 747 where the nose lifts up to give access?
 
joshdean
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 32):
What about the 747 where the nose lifts up to give access?

Well that's a freighter, but the discussion here is about fixing it to the wing so you don't have to pay a load of money to put it in a freighter...
 
jeb94
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:43 am

I never noticed the inserts before. That's cool! Keeps the air from flowing through and prevents windmilling. Windmilling an engine isn't the best thing for its longevity afterall.
 
aak777
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:48 am

Not only B747s, heres the good old Tristar with 4 engines.

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N766UA
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:27 am

Yeah that 5th engine definately wasn't running. You probably just saw it windmilling and noticed exhaust from the #2 engine.
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airxliban
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 23):
Quoting NZ1 (Reply 20):
Fifth pod is available on all 747 series, but only RR engines can be fifth podded, as far as I know.

Not true. Air India has ferried JT9Ds as 5th pods multiple times that I am aware of, including on the ill-fated AI 182 in 1985.

On 744s can the CF6 and PW4000 engines be podded as well as the RB211s?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
blue787
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting UpperDeck79 (Reply 12):
but why couldn't you just put the 5th engine in the cargo

Regretably an engine(PW4000,GECF6 or RB211) would not fit in the lower cargo hold as in a 744. unless it was a 74F in which case it will travel main deck, or a combi.Once again main deck.Regards
 
KAL_LM
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:49 pm

Drinktrolley wrote: "What about the 747 where the nose lifts up to give access?"

Even though we're not talking about freighters, just as an aside, the engine won't fit through the nose, it's too tall and wide. Will only fit through the side door. It is pretty interesting to do that though as they (the engines) have their own mounting rack and you just slap it on a pallet (albeit a 20ft. ULD) and tie it down and swing it inside. But as noted previously, the reason to pod the engine is to not have to either a.) charter a freighter if you don't have one, or b.) don't want/can't divert one of your own freighters to get it done.
is that a light at the end of the tunnel or just a train?
 
vh-mdk
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:41 pm

From a QF Lame:

"A Boeing 747 can have a 5th pod attatched if there are fittings on the wing. The only Engines that can be 5th podded are RB-211 all varients, and P&W JT9's

Any Engine can be put into the cargo hold, as long as the engine is split, ie a GE is split into 2 with the fan case being dissasebled and the core engine. It will then fit into the cargo hold"


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Those two photos show VH-EBY carring an extra engine to Auckland on the normal QF43 run.
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:14 pm

I flew a TP L1011-500 which was ferrying an engine as Aak777 pointed out. The flying time to BOS from TER was the typical 5 hours or so, so I don't think drag was significant issue.

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HAWK21M
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:07 pm

How much drag would the Ferried Engine cause.
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BWIA 772
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:12 pm

Can the 340 carry an extra engine.
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jumpjet
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:37 pm

I once saw a Saudi Arabian L1011 Tristar land at LHR with an extra engine slung by the port wing root. It looked really odd from directly in front as it was on final approach and certainly made my day!
 
airforum
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:01 pm

hmmm AFAIK they usually fly at lower speed when carrying an extra engine (compared to a regular flight)
What goes up, must come down. Let's hope the sky never went up.
 
Lucifer
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:59 pm

You probably saw additional heat exhaust from the air conditioning packs, which are in the belly of the aircraft.
 
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sincil
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:20 pm

Quoting Aak777 (Reply 35):
Not only B747s, heres the good old Tristar with 4 engines.

And the 707 also! Though it's placed in an aerodynamic pod:


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UpperDeck79
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting Sincil (Reply 49):
And the 707 also! Though it's placed in an aerodynamic pod:

Looks like a missile or something!
AY and ANA rock!
 
aak777
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RE: 5 Engine 747!

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting BWIA 772 (Reply 45):
Can the 340 carry an extra engine.

I bet it can carry a dosen of them in the cargo bays.  Big grin

No offince airbus lovers. I love airbusses too.

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