keesje
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New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:57 am



"We have not yet decided to launch a successor to the A320, which, I would remind you, is selling very well and for which we need to increase our production from 25 to more than 30 a month,"

That is 360 narrowbodies per year.


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IMO there is no need for A to invest in a succesor. Boeing indicated they will not invest in such an aircraft before 2010. A continuation of the step by step modifications seems sufficient ATM.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...660_RTRUKOC_0_TRANSPORT-AIRBUS.xml
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bill142
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:28 am

Yes but A probably want to be first to Market with a new narrowbody jet. So initial planing will probably need to be done sooner rather than later.
 
flyAUA
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
IMO there is no need for A to invest in a succesor. Boeing indicated they will not invest in such an aircraft before 2010. A continuation of the step by step modifications seems sufficient ATM.

I agree. Airbus' latest version of the A320 family and Boeing's latest B737NG aircraft are doing very well. Airlines do not seem to be moaning about them so why fix something that isn't wrong?

Good to see they will be boosting production. I also heard something about the A320 line being moved to the rest of the A318, A319 & A321 line. Is this true or pure rumours? Also, airbus has confirmed the A350 line will be located in Toulouse with the rest of the widebody lines. I saw the latter on RTL news this morning.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
Yes but A probably want to be first to Market with a new narrowbody jet. So initial planing will probably need to be done sooner rather than later.

I am sure they already have quite a few ideas in mind. Why go public with them so early though?  Wink
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777ER
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:32 pm

A320s are still selling like hot cakes and the technology in them is still 'state of the art', just like the B737NGs is still selling like hot cakes. There is totally no need to launch a replacement model. Once the B787 and A350s are handed over to their first customers then yes it will be time to replace the A320s and B737NGs due to the new technology
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:49 pm

>> A320s are still selling like hot cakes and the technology in them is still 'state of the art', just like the B737NGs is still selling like hot cakes

That is hardly true anymore: by the time the A350 and 787 enter service, the A320 and 737NG will be well obsolete. They are dated as it is, there simply exist no more modern product, so it's a zero sum game. There isn't anything cutting-edge when a product has been in production for more than 15 years  Wink

>> There is totally no need to launch a replacement model.

That depends on when the first manufacture, and first airline, wants to jump. As you said, the A350/787 EOS window would be an approx. time for customers to start looking around... and I don't think anyone expected a new product before then anyway...

>> Yes but A probably want to be first to Market with a new narrowbody jet. So initial planing will probably need to be done sooner rather than later.

I would disagree with two letters: Y1. Boeing has had a road-map for their future family for some time, and I think other indications would point to Boeing moving first.

#1. Boeing has mentioned a 737NG replacement more frequently. They havn't specified anything, but I think this shows that it's a more pressing matter in their camp.

#2. A huge bulk of options, purchase rights, etc terminate in 2012 whether they were signed in 2004 or 1998. Deliveries are planned past this date (namely AA, FR for sure), but if WN doesn't extend their options past 2012, I think the writing is on the wall.

#3. Southwest Airlines is going to be a star-gate on this project, big suprise. Their 733 fleet will, by 2012-2015-ish be ready for bulk replacement. Some early builds will require replacement near-term, but does anyone expect WN to replace the bulk of their 733 with current generation airplanes?

#4. Does Airbus have any number of factors that would combine to pressure them to take the greater risk of launching first? I can't see any that would demand they go first, so it would naturally behoove them to "wait and see" to attempt a one-up on Boeing.

>> That is 360 narrowbodies per year.

I read on Yahoo! Orders that Airbus calcuates deliveries based on an 11-month year? Anyone else have details, because otherwise Airbus would *actually* produce 330 NBs...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 3:02 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
"We have not yet decided to launch a successor to the A320, which, I would remind you, is selling very well and for which we need to increase our production from 25 to more than 30 a month,"

Out here the A320s & the B737NGs are doing very well.In fact a Bigger tilt in Favour of the A320 orders from Indian Operators.

A Production Increase is Welcomed.
regds
MEL
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Adria
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:00 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
That is hardly true anymore: by the time the A350 and 787 enter service, the A320 and 737NG will be well obsolete. They are dated as it is, there simply exist no more modern product, so it's a zero sum game. There isn't anything cutting-edge when a product has been in production for more than 15 years

It's the airliners not the cars

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
#1. Boeing has mentioned a 737NG replacement more frequently. They havn't specified anything, but I think this shows that it's a more pressing matter in their camp.

.....and they have also talked about the Sonic cruiser a lot and where is it now?
 
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
Yes but A probably want to be first to Market with a new narrowbody jet.

They were "first to market" with the A345/A346 and much good it did them!
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:49 pm

The A32X and B73S families remind me of the Volkswagen's Polo and Golf models  Wink Old brands, new conceptions !!!
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:14 pm

The A32Xs probably are getting a bit long in the tooth --especially if basically all-composite-hulled airliners are in fact about to hit the market in the next few years or so, as the 787 program initmates. I guess though with this current Airbus PR blurb they're maybe just trying to deflect speculation away from anything but their current major concerns, the 380 and 350.

Given how many times the A350 saga has shucked and jivved so far though I sure wouldn't be surprised if their comments about the A32X line change similarly as time goes on, particularly starting in about two years from now when hopefully the A380 at least is very much a done deal and airlines and passengers like it and so on.
 
Adria
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 9):
The A32Xs probably are getting a bit long in the tooth --especially if basically all-composite-hulled airliners are in fact about to hit the market in the next few years or so, as the 787 program initmates. I guess though with this current Airbus PR blurb they're maybe just trying to deflect speculation away from anything but their current major concerns, the 380 and 350.

but the same goes for the 737NG so no need to make a new aircraft if it is selling so good as it is. The 30 aircraft per month production rate is a sign that the A320 family is far from being replaced
 
TheSonntag
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:52 pm

One thing is for sure, the A320 and the 737 successors are so crucial and important, that neither manufacturer can afford to have an inferior product. The 737NG and the A320 are equal on almost all points, the A320 having a more modern cockpit design and FBW, the 737NG having a better wing, costs are almost the same.

Even though they do not want to lose that market, Airbus can survive even if an A350 would be inferior to the 787, but neither Boeing nor Airbus can afford having an inferior product in the A320/737 class.

Therefore I expect both the A320 and the 737 successors to be available at the same time, so both get the same kind of engines.

But I already look forward to A vs B in Airliners.net in 2012. I will guess both products will be almost equal, but lets wait and see.
 
flyAUA
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
That is hardly true anymore: by the time the A350 and 787 enter service, the A320 and 737NG will be well obsolete. They are dated as it is, there simply exist no more modern product, so it's a zero sum game. There isn't anything cutting-edge when a product has been in production for more than 15 years

The A320/B737 and A350/B787 are completely different markets. They will not impact eachothers markets as much you have mentioned. They have different capacities, ranges, etc... I can only see this happening if airlines wish to operate less thin routes (which I doubt). There will always be need for low-medium capacity aircraft. The latter is too large.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
That depends on when the first manufacture, and first airline, wants to jump. As you said, the A350/787 EOS window would be an approx. time for customers to start looking around... and I don't think anyone expected a new product before then anyway...

True  thumbsup 

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
They were "first to market" with the A345/A346 and much good it did them!

Yeah silly! Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself. Then again there was the Sonic Cruiser. Also a dodgy story!
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ebj1248650
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:42 pm

My guess is that Boeing will be the first with a new narrow body airplane. A friend of mine in Germany told me that Boeings are considered much too heavy and the design is too old. If this reflects what many Europeans in the aviation industry there actually think, it follows that they probably expect Boeing to make a move to get a replacement for the 737 on the drawing board as soon as the 787 has been well established on the production line. The 737 is a good airplane. Don't get me wrong. But a new design would be welcomed by the airlines; something that reflects the current state of the art in aerospace engineering. Will the Europeans rush to produce a competitor to the 737 replacement? Most likely they will, but I suspect it's apt to be an upgrade of the current A320 family of airplanes rather than a whole new design.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:48 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 13):
Most likely they will, but I suspect it's apt to be an upgrade of the current A320 family of airplanes rather than a whole new design.

A recent item in FLIGHT showed what looked like a very familiar A320 body but on very different wings and with completely new engines. I guess that apart from different meterials (to reduce weight, improve durability and so on) there isn't much you can do with a basic fuselage (which is why the 737NG still 'looks' like a 737) but new wings, engines and so on are where the future lies.
 
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
Yes but A probably want to be first to Market with a new narrowbody jet.

They were "first to market" with the A345/A346 and much good it did them!

From Flight International Edition week ending June 1st 1985

Boeing, McDonell Douglas and Airbus do not quite mean the same thing when they talk about the Advanced Technology Airliner. Again, this covers the 100 - 160 seat category market only.

McDonnell Douglas: "Improved performance without the cost of technological change just for change's sake" That is the marketing message on which MDC sells it's MD-80 Series today. Airlines are buying MDC's airplanes which presumably means they buy the argument. The MDC sales philosophy suggests that a further advance in technology is available, but MDC has made a deliberate decision not to go for it because of cost. The A320 is what MDC is talking about when it refers to "technological change for change's sake"

Boeing:Boeing's 737-300 is selling faster than any other airliner on the market today, and the manufacturers sales message is similar to MDC's. "Boeing has chosen not to respond immediately because the market has been slow to develop" says Joe Sutter, BCAG's Executive Vice President. The company says that it has made a positive decision to ply the market with derivative airplanes, and only to set out on the costly path of developing brand new products when the market is unmistakeably there.

MDC and Boeing are making profits on their MD-80 Series and 737-300 respectively, both of which have now sold more than 1000 machines. Has Airbus got the better binoculars?

Airbus:Theoretically, the A320 has one considerable advantage as a new-technology product: it will be available first, and the company will gain much if the worldwide airline business continues to recover and carriers decide that re-equipment can wait no longer. But to take full advanage of being "first with 3rd generation" it must convince customers that the technology it offers in the A320 represents a significant advance over the MD-80 Series and 737-300


Airbus, first to the market and look where it got them  Wink

Regards

PANAM_DC10
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AZA330
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:55 pm

There are more than just Airbus and Boeing making aircrafts like the A320 and the 737, so I was wondering if these other companies could take advantage from A and B "waiting" a few more years before developing the next version of these airplanes...
 
N1120A
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
Some early builds will require replacement near-term,

Which is why WN has more 73Gs coming anyway

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
but does anyone expect WN to replace the bulk of their 733 with current generation airplanes?

Not at all. I am betting most of their options for 73Gs get turned into 737NNG and possibly 739X.

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
They were "first to market" with the A345/A346 and much good it did them!

Well, start with an inferior product and you will make an inferior evolution

Quoting Adria (Reply 10):
The 30 aircraft per month production rate is a sign that the A320 family is far from being replaced

Actually, I think it is possibly that the production increse may be a sign that they want to wrap up production. There is a rather healthy backlog of narrowbody aircraft at both Airbus and Boeing and if they are looking at a 2012-2013 EIS for their new narrowbodies, they may want to flesh out near-term needs at airlines now and allow themselves more wiggle room to ramp up production on the new planes.

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 12):
Then again there was the Sonic Cruiser.

I think that design study came out quite well if you ask me. It turned into the 787

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 13):
that Boeings are considered much too heavy and the design is too old.

Well, considering they are lighter in basically every case than their Airbus counterpart, that is false logic.
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JDD1
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:42 pm

AZA330 There are more than just Airbus and Boeing making aircrafts like the A320 and the 737, so I was wondering if these other companies could take advantage from A and B "waiting" a few more years before developing the next version of these airplanes...

I think there is a risk, as you described, for A and B. Other countries such as Japan, China and Russia, in addition to Brazil and Canada, are just waiting for the opportunity. Japan and China have already proved that they can meet the technology and quality standards, that the world has come to expect, in cars and electronics. And they have stated that an aircraft industry is a strategic necessity.
It is a question of time.
 
Ken777
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:51 pm

I'm just Pax that loves planes, but I find it hard to believe that both A & B are not working on the next generation now at some level.

B would be out of their minds not to be transferring transferring knowledge from the 787 program to a 73E program as the knowledge is gained. I'm not talking about a huge engineering team at B, but a well rounded group of very good engineers. I believe that the 73E is gaining shape as the 787 advances to production.

I also believe A is aware (or understands) what B is probably doing and they have a team working on a 32E program, pulling lessons from the 350 program that has been increased in scope over the past year.

As development resources are freed from the 787/350 programs they will be added to the 73E/32E programs at some levels. Same with working with suppliers.

The fact is that both would be nuts not to be paying some attention to the next generation single aisle planes. A very big lesson was learned when Airbus got caught with their pants down on the 787 announcement, and Boeing learned how nice it was to catch them with their pants down. Both want to avoid A's position and both want to be in B's position.
 
flyAUA
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
I think that design study came out quite well if you ask me. It turned into the 787

If it came out well, why did nobody buy any of them and why did it never happen? I really doubt the sonic cruiser has anything to do with the dreamliner.

Quoting AZA330 (Reply 16):
There are more than just Airbus and Boeing making aircrafts like the A320 and the 737, so I was wondering if these other companies could take advantage from A and B "waiting" a few more years before developing the next version of these airplanes...

Isn't that what Embraer did with the 170, 175, and 190? You've got a very valid point and I don't believe for a second that they haven't taken advantage (or started to do so now) of the A & B delay in developing these aircraft.
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
keesje
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:11 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Then again there was the Sonic Cruiser.

I think that design study came out quite well if you ask me. It turned into the 787

 Yeah sure

Other people think Boeing got it totally wrong & decided to build a plastic 330 instead when the airlines informed them.

However I think Boeing took the right decision. They responded to the A320 twice, first with the 737-300/400 and later on with the NG.

Some technology on the 737NG is state of the art. Some technology is 40 years old.

I think upgrade potential for the A320 series is more realistic then for the 737NG. If A decides to go for a A320NG, Boeing will have to respond with a new design.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Adria
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Actually, I think it is possibly that the production increse may be a sign that they want to wrap up production. There is a rather healthy backlog of narrowbody aircraft at both Airbus and Boeing and if they are looking at a 2012-2013 EIS for their new narrowbodies, they may want to flesh out near-term needs at airlines now and allow themselves more wiggle room to ramp up production on the new planes.

could be true and if so there are still 7 or 8 years to come and that is a long period.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
The fact is that both would be nuts not to be paying some attention to the next generation single aisle planes. A very big lesson was learned when Airbus got caught with their pants down on the 787 announcement, and Boeing learned how nice it was to catch them with their pants down. Both want to avoid A's position and both want to be in B's position.

The 787 announcement was not a big surprise for the aviation industry, so if we connect your statement to the A380/B747Adv then Airbus caught them "with pants down"
 
FCKC
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:52 am

Already A and B have asked Snecma to work on a very very efficient engine for their new narrow bodies to come.
I remember some months ago to have read in a thread , here , in A.Net , that Boeing was thinking at a Twin Aisle plane to replace 737NGs , being pushed by Southwest , which prefers this kind of plane to be quicker at the desembarking that passengers will appreciate very much , and thus winning time on each turn around ,of course if they can have two jetways each time.
I must say , it's a bit long to desembark an A321 right now.
Any fresh news about that ?
 
beauing
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:08 am

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 12):

Yeah silly! Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself. Then again there was the Sonic Cruiser. Also a dodgy story!

And then there was the "A330 Lite" from Airbus

Airbus may try to recertify its A330-220 for lighter loads and shorter distances — a move that would save airlines money — to compete with Boeing's new 7E7 Dreamliner.

The fuselage of the plane would remain unchanged, though some modifications might be made to save weight, such as removing galleys.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...s+at+offering+%27lite%27+A330+


Remove the galleys? That's not only dogey, that's pathetic...
 
Adria
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 24):
And then there was the "A330 Lite" from Airbus

Airbus may try to recertify its A330-220 for lighter loads and shorter distances — a move that would save airlines money — to compete with Boeing's new 7E7 Dreamliner.

The fuselage of the plane would remain unchanged, though some modifications might be made to save weight, such as removing galleys.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...s+at+offering+%27lite%27+A330+

Remove the galleys? That's not only dogey, that's pathetic...

But from that one the A350 (the one that made the big orders lately Wink) was developed and what happened with the sonic cruiser? Or do you think that there are similarities between a delta-winged almost supersonic airliner and an conventional design like the 787 (except materials, which would be used anyway)?
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:24 am

Adria-- but the same goes for the 737NG so no need to make a new aircraft if it is selling so good as it is. The 30 aircraft per month production rate is a sign that the A320 family is far from being replaced.

Yeah, especially for the next couple of years at least I figure there's no sales problem with the line at all.
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 6):

.....and they have also talked about the Sonic cruiser a lot and where is it now?

the Sonic Cruise had and a good response initially (especially with BA), but then the dot.com/stock market implosion and 9/11 occured, with that, there wasn't a market for the Sonic Cruiser and it had to be shelved..however, many of the ideas/concepts and technologies went into the 7E7  arrow  787..in fact, I read somewhere on "ATW Daily News" that BA's Rod Eddington was particularly looking at the 787 because both BA and Boeing had worked on the Sonic Cruiser....(doesn't mean BA will pick the 787 over the A350 though)

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 20):
If it came out well, why did nobody buy any of them and why did it never happen? I really doubt the sonic cruiser has anything to do with the dreamliner.

see above and..


"BOEING DREAMLINER DESIGN

The Boeing Dreamliner (787) aircraft is of conventional design with low sweptback wings and two underwing pylon mounted engines. The design has replaced the Sonic Cruiser program and incorporates some of the advanced design features developed while examining the Sonic Cruiser concept. The design includes increased use of lightweight and high durability composites and advanced aluminium alloys. "

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/dreamliner/

so now FlyAUA..are you going to admit you are wrong (I'm taking the piss from another thread-if you get my humour).. Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
beauing
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 25):
But from that one the A350 (the one that made the big orders lately Wink) was developed and what happened with the sonic cruiser? Or do you think that there are similarities between a delta-winged almost supersonic airliner and an conventional design like the 787 (except materials, which would be used anyway)?

Boeing dropped the Sonic Cruiser in favor of the 787 because airlines showed more interest in the 787 design. Airbus dropped the A330 Lite in favor of the A350 because airlines showed more interest (after four attempts) in the A350 design.

The 787 has made FAR bigger orders than the A350.
 
DCrawley
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:53 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):

The fact is that both would be nuts not to be paying some attention to the next generation single aisle planes. A very big lesson was learned when Airbus got caught with their pants down on the 787 announcement, and Boeing learned how nice it was to catch them with their pants down. Both want to avoid A's position and both want to be in B's position.



Quoting Adria (Reply 22):
The 787 announcement was not a big surprise for the aviation industry, so if we connect your statement to the A380/B747Adv then Airbus caught them "with pants down"

I disagree with this statement. While I remain neutral in the A vs B debacle, I must say that Boeing was far from "being caught with their pants down" when it came (and comes) to the A380. Care to explain this statement with logic and facts? Comparably, the A380 and B747ADV are both niche market aircraft with specific goals in mind (seating, cargo, fuel consumption, range, etc.) and while both large aircraft, they are not competing on the direct level of the B737 and A320 families. Your statement also confuses me because Boeing has publicly stated their vision for the future that the hub systems will not be what it once was and more direct travel will take over. I am not trying to argue with you, but I think your statement was misguided. Here is some interesting facts on the 747ADV:

747AdvCard.pdf

Interesting facts on the A380:

A380 economics

Enjoy,

-D.K. Crawley
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Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:00 am

Beaung-- The 787 has made FAR bigger orders than the A350.


It's had about a year headstart so it better. And even there so much of the 787 interest is just preliminary commitments rather than anything really binding, since I guess so many folks are still waiting and seeing if Boeing can actually build the plane as advertised.
 
beauing
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 30):
And even there so much of the 787 interest is just preliminary commitments rather than anything really binding, since I guess so many folks are still waiting and seeing if Boeing can actually build the plane as advertised.

One could say the same things about the A350...
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:10 am

Beauing-- One could say the same things about the A350...

Oh sure, just likely not as emphatically (at least not at this point anyway)  Smile
 
beauing
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 32):
Oh sure, just likely not as emphatically (at least not at this point anyway)

I would disagree. Boeing has a reputation of meeting or exceeding their performance targets. Look at the 777 vs the A340.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:32 am

Picking those two particular examples, Beauing, I'd agree with you. However the recent sorry exhibition from them over the 'Sonic Cruiser' which proved to be just a colossal lie does leave their rep at this point highly in question, when it comes to brand new and technically-daring product anyway.
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:37 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 34):
Beauing, I'd agree with you. However the recent sorry exhibition from them over the 'Sonic Cruiser' which proved to be just a colossal lie

I fail to see why you believe the Sonic Cruiser was a "colossal" lie... sarcastic 

there is more than enough info to show that the Sonic Cruiser was indeed something Boeing was seriously intent on building..
"Up the Irons!"
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:47 am

Jacobin777, kaman.

At Mach ~0.98, and all the rest of it?  


Not to mention the huge amount of energy wasted around here from so many very zealously pitching it ("It's going to change the aviation world, yes it is yes it is yes it is!" and then of course "How dare you say they aren't going to be able to do it-- how dare you doubt Boeing engineers!" and on, and on, and on)

[Edited 2005-07-02 22:49:42]
 
astuteman
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:50 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
I would disagree with two letters: Y1. Boeing has had a road-map for their future family for some time, and I think other indications would point to Boeing moving first.



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 11):
Therefore I expect both the A320 and the 737 successors to be available at the same time, so both get the same kind of engines.

You can bet your bottom dollar that BOTH manufacturers are working HARD on the development of their next generation narrowbodies - their most important market, and have been for quite a while.

You can also bet your bottom dollar that BOTH manufacturers (and any others) will move when, and only when, the right engine/engines become available, i.e. according to most sources 2012-2013.

In other words, they will come very close together - too close to get 1st mover advantage (or disadvantage)...

Tell me if you see it any different, anyone.
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 36):
At Mach 0.98, and all the rest of it?

as I previously stated, the market was there orginally....and it was still not considered a "failure" because many of the 787 concepts/technologies came out of it....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:58 am

Jacobin777, kaman.

Condit and Mulally going around with their "point-to-point" vision of the future (as opposed to the A380's "hub-and-spoke"), and all the while promising both M ~0.9+ cruise speeds and fuel savings combined? Sure, there's a market and all for it. Just like there would be too if we could all fly around in personal flying saucers like on the Jetsons, as well.
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
Condit and Mulally going around with their "point-to-point" vision of the future (as opposed to the A380's "hub-and-spoke"),

Mark, I'm not going to get into semantics or philosophies of future air travel (point-to-point vs hub-spoke)...

at least we agree on the fact we disagree..but I've pointed info that proved the importance of the sonic cruiser...maybe if one of your retorts does, then we can call it a "draw".... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:09 am

Lets get down and dirty with the prospect of next generation Single aisle (SA) aircraft...

Do you think Boeing will keep its 40 year old fuselage? will they keep the width?
Its an important question because is taken for granted that seating in a SA aircraft is almost always 3-3, so if they launch a new fuselage I am sure it will be 5 to 9 inches wider tops just to beat Airbus, waht would airbus Do? get in to a mine is bigger than yours? I guess both manefacturers are waiting this out because demend is good and that special size affects a LOT the outcome of the airplane/economics/drag etc...

Engnes would be availiable to both because no Engine Maker will want to be left out in the biggest share of the market...

So it comes down to fuselage width and weight...then systems and technology, but I am sure that if this year battle for the twin aisle aircraft, was bad...just wait till they announce the next SA project....

Best regards TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:14 am

Well Jacobin maybe Condit and Mullaly would have some interesting fessing up sessions if we could buy 'em a few drinks and they let their guard down a bit  Wink

Apart from that it's real tough to prove intent one way or the other, especially from the outside. Obviously devotees either way are likely going to stick with what they believe already.

The one indisputable outcome though is that there is no Sonic Cruiser after all, despite all the massive amount of marketing hype that claimed at one time not long ago that there would soon be.
 
jacobin777
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 42):
The one indisputable outcome though is that there is no Sonic Cruiser after all, despite all the massive amount of marketing hype that claimed at one time not long ago that there would soon be.

the child of the Sonice Cruiser is coming..787.... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
beauing
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Mark_D. (Reply 34):
However the recent sorry exhibition from them over the 'Sonic Cruiser' which proved to be just a colossal lie does leave their rep at this point highly in question,

A colossal lie?

As I said previously, Boeing did not go forward with the Sonic Cruiser because the airlines wanted fuel efficiency over speed. That's called listening to your customers. What would you have Boeing do, build it anyway? Given $60 a barrel oil it was a good call by both the airlines and Boeing not to go for the Sonic Cruiser.

And what about Airbus' response to the 787? First they dismissed it as a "little plastic plane" and said they didn't have to do anything. Then they said they would merely hang 787 engines on the A330. Then they proposed a "detuned" A330 Lite (the famous no-galley proposal), and finally they proposed the A350, which went through four iterations in 90 days. This sorry performance didn't exactly enhance their rep.
 
Adria
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 28):
Boeing dropped the Sonic Cruiser in favor of the 787 because airlines showed more interest in the 787 design. Airbus dropped the A330 Lite in favor of the A350 because airlines showed more interest (after four attempts) in the A350 design.

yes so they were both doing business the same way....that's my point

Quoting DCrawley (Reply 29):
I disagree with this statement. While I remain neutral in the A vs B debacle, I must say that Boeing was far from "being caught with their pants down" when it came (and comes) to the A380. Care to explain this statement with logic and facts? Comparably, the A380 and B747ADV are both niche market aircraft with specific goals in mind (seating, cargo, fuel consumption, range, etc.) and while both large aircraft, they are not competing on the direct level of the B737 and A320 families. Your statement also confuses me because Boeing has publicly stated their vision for the future that the hub systems will not be what it once was and more direct travel will take over. I am not trying to argue with you, but I think your statement was misguided. Here is some interesting facts on the 747ADV:

Well with those "pants down" I was just referring to the post that said the same thing about the B787 and A350 (just wanted to show that we could say the same about the 747Adv and the A380). Well I don't think the A380 is a niche market aircraft and if you want facts look at the order book which is full and look how many different airlines have ordered it to date (and there are some waiting to see how the aircraft will perform before they will order). A niche aircraft is the A345 or B772LR. With the A350 arriving Airbus has the advantage of offering aircrafts from 100 to 555+ seats and now the A380 will influence the order book of other Airbus members (especially the A320 Family) just like the 747 influenced the order book of the B737 in the past.

Quoting Beauing (Reply 44):
And what about Airbus' response to the 787? First they dismissed it as a "little plastic plane" and said they didn't have to do anything. Then they said they would merely hang 787 engines on the A330. Then they proposed a "detuned" A330 Lite (the famous no-galley proposal), and finally they proposed the A350, which went through four iterations in 90 days. This sorry performance didn't exactly enhance their rep.

If I count the different variants of the B747 Boeing offered to the airlines the number of "attempts" is much higher so this argument is irrelevant.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
there is more than enough info to show that the Sonic Cruiser was indeed something Boeing was seriously intent on building..

well ask any aerodinamycs expert and you will find out that at those Mach speeds the Sonic Cruiser was planned to operate the drag force is much higher than at Mach 2.00 (that's why Concorde used the afterburners to get past M0.9-1.00 as soon as it could). The Sonic cruiser was basically just PR for the Paris airshow to have something to offer for the journalists agents the A380
 
beauing
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 45):
Quoting Beauing (Reply 28):
Boeing dropped the Sonic Cruiser in favor of the 787 because airlines showed more interest in the 787 design. Airbus dropped the A330 Lite in favor of the A350 because airlines showed more interest (after four attempts) in the A350 design.

yes so they were both doing business the same way....that's my point

No, that wasn't your point. Go back and read your post:

Quote:
Quoting Adria (Reply 25):
But from that one the A350 (the one that made the big orders lately Wink) was developed and what happened with the sonic cruiser? Or do you think that there are similarities between a delta-winged almost supersonic airliner and an conventional design like the 787 (except materials, which would be used anyway)?

Your point was that the A330 Lite morphed into the A350 but the Sonic Cruiser morphed into nothing. But as other's have pointed out, the Sonic Cruiser morphed into the 7E7/787.

Also, I wouldn't go thumping my chest about how many orders the A350 has. How many of those come at the expense of the A330 and A340?
 
keesje
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 46):
the Sonic Cruiser morphed into the 7E7/787.

good feel story, IMO factual untrue

Yellowstone like studies were done since 1999.

Sonic cruiser was started later and shelved in dec 2002

Boeing picked up the Yellowstome studies again after.

No morphing here.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AirbusDriver
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 46):
. How many of those come at the expense of the A330 and A340?

How many B787 come at the expense of the 767 and B772???

Stupid question stupid answer.
 
flyAUA
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RE: New Airbus Boss Calls For A320 Output Boost

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:22 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 24):
And then there was the "A330 Lite" from Airbus

Airbus may try to recertify its A330-220 for lighter loads and shorter distances — a move that would save airlines money — to compete with Boeing's new 7E7 Dreamliner.

The fuselage of the plane would remain unchanged, though some modifications might be made to save weight, such as removing galleys.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...A330+

That's an old article. Look at the date. And the fact it still refers to the 787 as the 7E7 proves this. If you wanted to be fair on yourself (which I am sure you don't want because anything that Airbus makes will never please you) you would have read the Flight International article on the A350, 3-4 weeks ago which had all the changes that were recently announced. The list of the several changes was extensively discussed on here too, but I see you intentionally decide to deny that. Suit yourself  Wink

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
The Boeing Dreamliner (787) aircraft is of conventional design with low sweptback wings and two underwing pylon mounted engines. The design has replaced the Sonic Cruiser program and incorporates some of the advanced design features developed while examining the Sonic Cruiser concept. The design includes increased use of lightweight and high durability composites and advanced aluminium alloys. "

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/dreamliner/

so now FlyAUA..are you going to admit you are wrong (I'm taking the piss from another thread-if you get my humour)..

WTF? I said that the Sonic Cruiser was never built and that the airlines didn't show enough interest. Which was the case. The programme was abandoned, so what are you on about!? Of course I am not going to admit I am wrong when it's not the case  Confused

Ummm... what was this thread about again? Oh yeah the 747ADV!!!  sarcastic 
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