diesel33
Posts: 297
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Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:38 am

Just wondering with their massive International/European expansion if anyone thinks CO may be planning services to VIE for spring/summer '06? I think it would be a good move... I think OS is the only airline flying between the two countries. Surely there is room for CO using a 757.

Does a 757 w/ winglets have the range for that route?

Diesel33
 
flyAUA
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:47 am

Quoting Diesel33 (Thread starter):
Just wondering with their massive International/European expansion if anyone thinks CO may be planning services to VIE for spring/summer '06? I think it would be a good move... I think OS is the only airline flying between the two countries. Surely there is room for CO using a 757.

I really really doubt it although it would be cool! I say this because CO flies to several very nearby airports that are partners of OS and offer connections between the two airports. If it happens it will be good news.

It's not like we see American carriers here in VIE if I am not mistaken.

VIE-EWR is 3696 nm. You do the maths  Wink
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:03 am

CO is studying many additional destinations in Europe - I have not heard anything specific about Vienna, but you never know. I think that the EWR-VIE flight would be just outside of the 752 operating limits even with the winglets.
 
VORFMD
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:04 pm

Quoting Diesel33 (Thread starter):
Surely there is room for CO using a 757.

definitely

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 1):
It's not like we see American carriers here in VIE if I am not mistaken.

you are not mistaken, we have not ONE American Carrier here - a sad thing
for an Airport with 16 Mio PAX this year. Is really no American Carrier interested in VIE ? Is it because of the Fees or the Yield or both ?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:29 pm

757 can't do it. Can't do Munich, either.

Would require a 762, but not enough of them in the fleet, so unless VIE offers more cargo and premium pax (25 vs. 16) than other routes that A) now have a 762 and B) could be switched to a 752, I don't see it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:01 pm

Wouldn't it be more likely to see a Star Alliance partner in VIE? Maybe if UA or US are in better shape again they could use VIE as a connection to some European destinations, code-sharing with OS ofcourse. So, who knows, there will be future flights coming in Vienna from ORD, IAD or PHL....
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
flyAUA
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:43 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 5):

Isn't United on it's way to it's grave? US Airways... maybe. But I haven't heard any mention of them going to VIE. BTW you can also see things differently. They might perhaps opt not to fly to VIE since US Airways flies to neighbouring airports of Star Alliance partners with good connections to VIE.
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
Kahala777
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:53 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 6):
Isn't United on it's way to it's grave?

RUMORS

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 6):
US Airways... maybe

RUMORS


FYI - OS/UA are looking to reinstate ORD-VIE service. Originally the route operated via CPH on the A310.


Kahala777
 
INNflight
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:00 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 7):
FYI - OS/UA are looking to reinstate ORD-VIE service. Originally the route operated via CPH on the A310.

Perfectly correct!

Just to add my 2 cents... I do not think there really is huge demand for any US Airline to get into VIE, simply because the Star Alliance network is too extensive. There are tons of daily connection flights to FRA, MUC, CPH,... All of them are Star Alliance hubs and already having US airlines serving them.
Jet Visuals
 
ZRH
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:03 pm

Quoting VORFMD (Reply 3):
Is it because of the Fees

I don't know the reason but it can't be the fees. Zurich is not cheaper than Vienna but has four US airlines (UA, AA, DL, CO; all with 767-200/300)
 
padcrasher
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:03 pm

Is there any non-stop service between VIE and the US?

Also, maybe WAW would work. Or would that be too far for a 757?
 
INNflight
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 10):
any non-stop service between VIE and the US?


VIE to JFK, ORD and IAD, all operated by OS.

[Edited 2005-07-02 16:07:31]
Jet Visuals
 
A330323X
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 6):
US Airways... maybe. But I haven't heard any mention of them going to VIE.

US was going to fly to VIE (and BHX) this summer, but changed their mind at the last minute when BCN and VCE offered big marketing incentives.

Now, though, US's widebody fleet is maxed out, so if they want to add another destination, somebody will have to lose service--by no means impossible, but not all that likely.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
N1120A
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 1):
VIE-EWR is 3696 nm. You do the maths

The math has been done. The 752W can fly the route

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
I think that the EWR-VIE flight would be just outside of the 752 operating limits even with the winglets.

No it wouldn't. As it is, there is a 204 nm cushion on still air without winglets. The additional range granted by the winglets would make the route quite possible

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
757 can't do it. Can't do Munich, either.

Again, yet it can. In fact, PRG has long been studied as a 752W destination and is within the aircraft's range quite easily and is shorter than EWR-MUC
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:10 am

Before CO starts flying into VIE they should reconsider serving DUS again. They would have a virtual monoply on the NYC/EWR route. AA stopped serving years ago, UA in mid-2003. LH still serves EWR but that is their Biz Class only flight operated by Privatair. If they started VIE service they would be competing against OS and its ability to feed passengers to the JFK flight. Also, I belive the catchment area of DUS is much bigger than VIE. The Rhein/Ruhr area is in desperate need of a non-stop service to the US.
A330 man.
 
avek00
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:14 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 14):
LH still serves EWR but that is their Biz Class only flight operated by Privatair.

...which means that the premium traffic on EWR-DUS is already spoken for, meaning CO won't be back anytime soon.
Live life to the fullest.
 
Kahala777
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 12):
US was going to fly to VIE (and BHX) this summer, but changed their mind at the last minute when BCN and VCE offered big marketing incentives.

BHX, offers low yield traffic. BCN, VCE were excellent high yield, high demand seasonal choices. VIE, is more of a high yield, mid market demand. VIE, is huge for business travel. Just not from North America. Vienna, is one of the most incredible cities in Europe. The prices dictate so. VCE to VIE is not a long trek by any means!

Kahala777
 
flyAUA
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
The 752W can fly the route

Well that's cool. Now all we need to know is if CO want's to and if VIE want's them.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 12):
US was going to fly to VIE (and BHX) this summer, but changed their mind at the last minute when BCN and VCE offered big marketing incentives.

Now, though, US's widebody fleet is maxed out, so if they want to add another destination, somebody will have to lose service--by no means impossible, but not all that likely.

That sucks, it would have been good to see an American Star Partner in VIE. Maybe as you have suggested when they loose some other routes, or in the next round of decision-making when it comes to their route network.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 7):
Isn't United on it's way to it's grave?
RUMORS

I was just asking... chill!

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 14):
If they started VIE service they would be competing against OS and its ability to feed passengers to the JFK flight

True! But the OS operated JFK flights are quite full so there's room for more  thumbsup 

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 14):
Also, I belive the catchment area of DUS is much bigger than VIE.

This is the strength of DUS over VIE. DUS is situated in an area with several large settlements in a radius of say... 1 hour or so. For VIE, that is not the case. But when you make that comparison, don't forget to also look at how many services are already being operated to the New York airports from the DUS area, and how many are being operated from the VIE area. That would make more sense since then you have an idea of how many additional services you can really add.

Regards,
Moe  Smile
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
INNflight
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:57 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 16):
VIE, is huge for business travel. Just not from North America. Vienna, is one of the most incredible cities in Europe.

...not to forget mentioning the biggest gateway airport to Eastern Europe!
Jet Visuals
 
ikramerica
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
No it wouldn't. As it is, there is a 204 nm cushion on still air without winglets. The additional range granted by the winglets would make the route quite possible

Not enough cushion Westbound with full revenue load, winglets or not. And CO is not flying any routes that require winglets, as all their current routes can be flown with winglet or non-winglet planes.

Maybe in the future when the majority of their fleet is wingleted, that will change.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 15):
...which means that the premium traffic on EWR-DUS is already spoken for, meaning CO won't be back anytime soon.

however, the LH/Privatair route is on a A319 (not positive) so there aren't that many seats available on a daily basis, I think 48 (not sure either). So there may be some overflow still available and from what I have read here CO's business-first product is quite good. Also, the Privatair service isn't daily due to maintenance factors.

Quoting FlyAUA (Reply 17):
don't forget to also look at how many services are already being operated to the New York airports from the DUS area,

there really is only the LH/Privatair service, which is not daily. LTU started serving JFK in June but that may only be seasonal and I believe also on 6x weekly.

I honestly think if CO did some extensive marketing in NRW they would see their planes quite full from DUS. They need to really plug their biggest plus which is EWR as gateway to their entire US system.

So if any CO executives happen to read this thread you have a big fan just waiting to be contacted.......  Wink
A330 man.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:51 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):

No it wouldn't. As it is, there is a 204 nm cushion on still air without winglets. The additional range granted by the winglets would make the route quite possible

You probably are more of an expert than I am at matter such as this.....but isnt a 204 nm cushion very tight for a transatlantic route, especially during the northern winter when winds can be difficult for the westbound journey? CO does push its aircraft close to their limits for many routes, but wouldnt this be using an aircraft at or beyond its absolute range limit? Especially going into EWR, where traffic and sometimes weather can be an issue.

How many nm of range do the winglets acutally add? I have heard about 300 nm, is this correct? I also heard that the winglets improve the performance a bit more than expected, is this true?


----------

Regarding DUS, sorry guys, but CO is not going back anytime in the near future. The flight worked when CO had a major contract that kept the BF cabin filled on 767-sized aircraft, when that contract was not renewed, the flight became a money losing proposition. I do not live far from DUS, and while there is a big and rather affluent population base in the area, the fact is that most in the area use the LH train connection from DUS and CGN to pick up longhaul flights out of FRA, also, with the the LH/Privatair business class flight operating DUS-EWR, CO would have one difficult time trying to sell its J class seats......CO would probably keep the flight reasonably filled, but the yeilds would be wrong and CO can better allocate its resources.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:59 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
Regarding DUS, sorry guys, but CO is not going back anytime in the near future.

@Dutchjet--you like destroying a person's dreams don't you......
 cheeky 
A330 man.
 
avek00
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 20):
however, the LH/Privatair route is on a A319 (not positive) so there aren't that many seats available on a daily basis, I think 48 (not sure either).

...which likely covers most if not all of the daily nonstop Business Class demand between the cities.
Live life to the fullest.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:04 am

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 22):

@Dutchjet--you like destroying a person's dreams don't you......

Sorry!!!!!!! I too would love to see CO back in DUS.

Until then, I am on CO 60/61 in and out of BRU countlesss times per year. Cheers.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting INNflight (Reply 11):
Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 10):
any non-stop service between VIE and the US?


VIE to JFK, ORD and IAD, all operated by OS.

Austrian ended O'Hare (and Miami) in October 2001.
a.
 
drdivo
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
CO is studying many additional destinations in Europe - I have not heard anything specific about Vienna, but you never know

I have heard specifically that VIE will be announced in the winter for summer 2006 deployment with 75M aircraft.
Respectfully - the Divo
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:21 am

Quoting Drdivo (Reply 26):

I have heard specifically that VIE will be announced in the winter for summer 2006 deployment with 75M aircraft.

Then we must be talking to different people! I heard a bunch of European cities being considered for 2006 out of EWR, and, honestly, VIE was not one of them. We will find out in the coming months.

I still wonder about the 752 doing the EWR-VIE route, it does seem a bit tight.
 
Kahala777
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
Then we must be talking to different people! I heard a bunch of European cities being considered for 2006 out of EWR, and, honestly, VIE was not one of them

Rotterdam is in the list!  wink 


Kahala777
 
flyAUA
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
I still wonder about the 752 doing the EWR-VIE route, it does seem a bit tight.

Range of a B752 is 3900nm, and EWR-VIE (assuming a straight direct line which is not the case) is 3696nm, so it is indeed tight, yes. But still within range I guess.
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:07 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 28):

Rotterdam is in the list!


Kahala777

Not the list that I heard - no Rotterdam, no Vienna......the list that I was told did include Moscow (762), Prague, Barcelona, Lyon, Copenhagen, Helsinki and Newcastle (which is always on the list but never seems to get the service.)
 
diesel33
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
Not the list that I heard - no Rotterdam, no Vienna......the list that I was told did include Moscow (762), Prague, Barcelona, Lyon, Copenhagen, Helsinki and Newcastle

Thats pretty interesting....that would mean CO would serve all 4 Scandinavian capitals!

Wow!

Diesel33
 
Kahala777
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:18 am

Funny, everyine has been told a different list!

These Continental Airlines lists are become a hot item!

The List I have heard of:

Barcelona : 752
Basel : 752
Luxembourg : 752
Lyons : 752
Marseille : 752
Nice : 752
Turin : 752
Rotterdam : 752


Kahala777
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 31):

Thats pretty interesting....that would mean CO would serve all 4 Scandinavian capitals!

Wow!

Diesel33

Yes, all four capitals are being studied, nothing is yet definite. The fact that Oslo was a success, and it seems that ARN is doing well, helps the case for the Copenhagen and Helsinki.....the fact that no other US carriers currently serve these cities (not much competition) is also a big plus.

Funny, remember that SAS was once a big investor in CO - they invested when the airline emerged from bankruptcy the first time around and their investment was wiped out with the second visit by CO to bankruptcy court. When SAS invested in CO, they moved their NYC operations to EWR to work with CO.
 
Kahala777
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:23 am

Continental serving all 4 capitals would certainly insure, a prime business choice!

Kahala777
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:28 am

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 32):
Funny, everyine has been told a different list!

These Continental Airlines lists are become a hot item!

The List I have heard of:

Barcelona : 752
Basel : 752
Luxembourg : 752
Lyons : 752
Marseille : 752
Nice : 752
Turin : 752
Rotterdam : 752


Kahala777

I guess it depends on who you know and who you speak with - lets see, we agree on Barcelona, Basel will happen only if CO gets a certain contract from a certain pharma company that will keep about half the aircraft filled on a daily basis and then Basel will move to the top of the list, we agree on Lyon, regarding Marseille and Nice, it will be one or the other and probably not with the next round of cities (atleast thats the latest gossip), Turin is news to me (doesnt mean its not true, just the people I know have not mentioned it yet), and Rotterdam is a non-starter for operational reasons. CO would like to get ATH on the route map, but their are governmental issues.

It will be interesting to see which cities and how many cities are added with the next round - its nice to be talking about an airline expanding instead of cutting destinations, in any case.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:31 am

I forgot LUX - honestly, there really is not a market. LUX is very small, the surrounding area is not well populated, and the city, even with all those banks, can support only very limited scheduled airline service to European capitals......most passengers head to BRU.

[Edited 2005-07-03 02:44:54]
 
OSA330
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:33 am

Regardless a B757 would make the distance, would that aircraft be comfortable enough for longhaul flights? We all know that single-aisle planes
don't perfectly meet the needs of longhaul passengers. I have also heard that some passengers of the BBJ routes (DUS-EWR or ZRH-EWR) feel a little bit cramped in terms of cabin size, although the plane is entirely equipped with business class seats.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting OSA330 (Reply 37):
Regardless a B757 would make the distance, would that aircraft be comfortable enough for longhaul flights? We all know that single-aisle planes
don't perfectly meet the needs of longhaul passengers. I have also heard that some passengers of the BBJ routes (DUS-EWR or ZRH-EWR) feel a little bit cramped in terms of cabin size, although the plane is entirely equipped with business class seats.

Oh no, the 757 is uncomfortable accross the Atlantic arguement once again - some a.netters have a problem with the 757 on longer-haul, most passengers do not. In reality, the 757 is no more or less comfortable than a larger type, space per pax is the about the same. CO very good BusinessFirst product works just fine on the 757 - and CO is studying an upgrade of the 752 interiors which may include PTVs for all passengers (just like the 767/777 fleet - now the 757s only have PTVs in BF) and, if funds allow, the 757 may be the first aircraft in the CO fleet with a AVOD system.

Passengers like direct flights, passengers dislike multiple connections. The type of aircraft used on a segment is not a big issue for most of the travelling public - convenience, schedule, price and FF miles are the what most people look at when booking a flight.
 
OSA330
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 38):
Passengers like direct flights, passengers dislike multiple connections. The type of aircraft used on a segment is not a big issue for most of the travelling public - convenience, schedule, price and FF miles are the what most people look at when booking a flight

I agree, but consider, that the average European doesn't fly longhaul quite often. I guess that longhaul passengers basically have more experience with flying, because it requires courage and language skills. I know a lot of people who rather stay in Europe than elsewhere because of those things mentioned.
If I can decide between an OS A330 or CO 757, I would definitely select OS because I am familiar with the comfort of single-aisle and double-aisle aircraft as well. I think, that someone, who travels on a 757, will recall the details when preparing the next vacation.

But you are right, most passengers are only attracted by the price or a nonstop service. I have tried to explain various FFP to my friends, most of them did not enroll any membership, although they were initially impressed. It requires a kind of enthusiasm to care about such stuff.
 
avek00
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting OSA330 (Reply 39):
I agree, but consider, that the average European doesn't fly longhaul quite often.

...and CO is not catering to them, but rather the business travelers who DO fly frequently and will pay a premium for the privilege of flying nonstop to New York/1-stop to most cities in the USA.
Live life to the fullest.
 
flyAUA
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 36):
I forgot LUX - honestly, there really is not a market.

CO to LUX  rotfl 

You are right, LUX is very small and an American passenger airline would never fly here. We can't even get the European airlines to fly here! LOL
Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
 
diesel33
Posts: 297
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:16 pm

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 32):
Barcelona : 752
Basel : 752
Luxembourg : 752
Lyons : 752
Marseille : 752
Nice : 752
Turin : 752
Rotterdam : 752

All those cities seem pretty unrealistic except Basel, Nice, and Rotterdam but I really don't think any of these cities will join the CO route map in the spring/summer '06.

Moscow isn't even on that list and that seems to be the most confirmed city for next season.

I am going to have to lean toward DutchJet's CO cities list for the mean time...

Diesel33
 
MHG
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:44 pm

At least BSL (or EAP or MLH... which is all the same airport) would get a good start!
I know about serious guaranteed DAILY!!! purchase of at least 30 Business Class seats by Novartis.
They have clearly declared to buy an A319CJ or a B737BBJ if no airline will commence scheduled non-stop flights to NYC ex BSL!!!


And i don´t see CO returning to DUS (unfortunately) because they are simply too late in returning. LH already has taken the bulk of C-Class pax and LT is very successful on the JFK-route.
Next to this LT also offers a C-Class next to their Y-Class. LT is over all very much satisfied with the yield! It might be too risky to jump on the route without knowing if the DUS-market provides sufficient demand (and yield!) when competition grows

[Edited 2005-07-03 14:51:42]
I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
 
N77014
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 9):
I don't know the reason but it can't be the fees. Zurich is not cheaper than Vienna but has four US airlines (UA, AA, DL, CO; all with 767-200/300)

And ZRH has high yield business and diplomatic traffic year round, especially from IAD and NYC. Can VIE offer that?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 36):
I forgot LUX - honestly, there really is not a market. LUX is very small, the surrounding area is not well populated, and the city, even with all those banks, can support only very limited scheduled airline service to European capitals......most passengers head to BRU.

Icelandair, after 30 years, gave up on LUX. What does that tell you?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 33):
Funny, remember that SAS was once a big investor in CO - they invested when the airline emerged from bankruptcy the first time around and their investment was wiped out with the second visit by CO to bankruptcy court. When SAS invested in CO, they moved their NYC operations to EWR to work with CO.

And CO was well positioned to study that SK, with oversized aircraft and management that did not think outside the box, was caught flat footed when they withdrew OSL-EWR.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 8):
Just to add my 2 cents... I do not think there really is huge demand for any US Airline to get into VIE, simply because the Star Alliance network is too extensive. There are tons of daily connection flights to FRA, MUC, CPH,... All of them are Star Alliance hubs and already having US airlines serving them.

Correct. The VIE-USA markert is well served with connections from all the major west european hubs. I imagine the chagrin at VIE, however, where TXL welcomes two american carriers to NYC, and they still have none.
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ikramerica
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:56 am

What about Munich?

With CO expanding German language service, you'd think EWR-MUN would be a good option with a 752 with Winglets.
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dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:39 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 45):
What about Munich?

With CO expanding German language service, you'd think EWR-MUN would be a good option with a 752 with Winglets.

As you probably know, CO did serve MUN in the late 1980s and early 1990s - it was one of their first transatlantic routes and was flown with a DC10-30 back then. CO dropped the route when the new airport at Munich opened up, using the very high costs of operating in and out of the new facility as the excuse for dropping the flight. This was only part of the reason, while the flights from Munich to EWR went out rather filled (loads even in the low winter season were not that bad), the yeilds were very poor and there was little J class or full fare demand. Of course, that was many years ago before CO earned its current reputation for good service and a very competitive BF product - back then, CO was know as one of the worst carriers (Worst to First by Bethune - the title is very accurate regarding CO).

Will CO return - I do not think its likely, Munich has become a major STAR alliance city and LH is developing its second hub at Munich with many direct flights to several US cities. It would be a tough battle for CO - especially for the premium fare pax who are very loyal to LH and their FF program. CO is probably better off passing on Munich and using its resources for another European city where there is far less competition. CO seems very attracted to cities in Europe where there is little competition or no competition over the atlantic.
 
klwright69
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:00 am

Dutchjet, just one correction on your timeline. CO didn't serve MUC at all in the 80's. FRA came on board the CO system right before MUC did in the early 90's. CO first began service to LGW in Europe during the 80's, then added Paris during the 80's also. Paris and London were CO's only European cities during the 80's. FRA, Madrid, and Munich were then added. But we were already in the 90's when that happened. I am completely certain on this, as I was travelling a lot to Europe during that time...

But I totally agree with your opinion on CO and MUC.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:01 am

Thanks for the correction, I think you are correct about the dates.

regards.......
 
VORFMD
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RE: Any Chance Of Seeing CO In VIE?

Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:06 am

Well, there is definitely a big demand on nonstop Flights from VIE to the USA.
I had a nice talk with a friend working for a Travel Agency and she said that
they have to send a lot of PAX via FRA, MUC and other European Cities as there is simply no free seat on OS services to JFK and IAD, esp. in Summer.

She then said that not NYC needs a second daily flight but ORD and LAX
would be the Cities that needs a nonstop Service from VIE, admitting that
this is a wishful thinking.