luisde8cd
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Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:06 am

AF and DL are negociating with GOL an agreement to take their pax from GIG to other cities in Brazil. Skyteam has been losing ground in Brazil to Star Alliance, because of Varig's dominance in the brazilian market.

Anyone knows what kind of agreement this will be? codeshare? could this mean GOL joining skyteam in the long term?


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Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

Source (SPANISH)
http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=3723
 
MarkATL
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:13 am

Except for maybe ATL, CDG, SEL and perhaps PRG....Where is Sky Team not loosing ground?
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:17 am

Luis,
The information i have is that Gol will allow a code share into their flights to SSA, VIX, CGH, CNF, BSB, REC, CPQ, POA and CWB. A friend of mine last saturday said to me (we both are waiting for confirmation on this issue) that 2 aircrafts will be added to GIG network increasing its daily operations from 34 up to 50 as some routes will be changed (it could turns Gol as the biggest domestic operator on GIG even bigger than RG and almost 2 times bigger than JJ). With these planes, Gol could add non stop service to CWB and improve POA and other cities services.
In fact the dominance of Star in Brazil is relative as nowadays RG (25%) is ranked 3 on domestic routes, just after Tam (41%) and Gol (27%). The main factor is that RG operations on GRU are 3 to 4 times bigger than JJ and Gol does not offer so much option there (only 8 daily flights).
Both Air France and Delta confirms this negotiation. Gol source told me that in the future, Continental can join this agreement too.
Concerning to Gol join SkyTeam, could be a reallity as in 3 to 5 years Gol will be in a position of a strong South America Player. Add international service to Europe and US could be a secondary strategy but one day will be the only markets available to be explored. With a strong position on Brazil and South America Gol could take an important advantage in the future.

A previous topic has discussed this matter a few weeks ago.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:29 am

Hopefully this will mean that GOL is required to have a route map when they start cooperating with AF/DL  Silly .

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 1):
Except for maybe ATL, CDG, SEL and perhaps PRG....Where is Sky Team not loosing ground?

You gotta be kidding me.
NW at MEM/MSP/DTW, CO at IAH/CLE/EWR, KLM at AMS, soon Copa(PTY), Tarom (OTP), Air Europa (MAD,BCN,PMI) and Kenya (NBO). Yeah, Skyteam is definitely losing ground everywhere.
 
mauriceb
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:34 am

Except for maybe ATL, CDG, SEL and perhaps PRG....Where is Sky Team not loosing ground?


guess you have never heard of AMS before... its a hub for 2 big Skyteam airlines, KLM and NWA... and lots of AF, CSA, Delta, Co in here...
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:37 am

Same info has been given today by freench newspaper La Tribune. And with the todays press release from Gol stating they will start a new company on Mexico, could be a strong addition to SkyTeam alliance.

Hope GIG could be the Sky hub on South America.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:22 am

I would expect that if GOL was invited to join Skyteam (which I hope happens) they would be invited as an associate member and would adopt the FF program of one of the other members (Flying Blue?). I understand that they do not have a FF program of their own, and the adoption of the ST sponser's FF program is a requirement of associate member status.

I would also doubt that and GOL affiliate airline based in Mexico would be invited to join ST since AM is already a full (founding?) member.
 
stirling
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 3):
Hopefully this will mean that GOL is required to have a route map when they start cooperating with AF/DL .

You stole the words out of my mouth.
Delete this User
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 3):
Hopefully this will mean that GOL is required to have a route map when they start cooperating with AF/DL .

You stole the words out of my mouth.

i've made a route map for Gol. Hope they can produce something even better and add to their website:

http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/airlines/Latin_America/slides/Gol.html

Our friend KEno has added to its site.


Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
Luis,
The information i have is that Gol will allow a code share into their flights to SSA, VIX, CGH, CNF, BSB, REC, CPQ, POA and CWB. A friend of mine last saturday said to me (we both are waiting for confirmation on this issue) that 2 aircrafts will be added to GIG network increasing its daily operations from 34 up to 50 as some routes will be changed (it could turns Gol as the biggest domestic operator on GIG even bigger than RG and almost 2 times bigger than JJ). With these planes, Gol could add non stop service to CWB and improve POA and other cities services.

Thanks for the info Felipe, now I have a clearer picture of what's happening. By the way do you know the status of GOL's expansion to CCS?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:27 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 8):
i've made a route map for Gol. Hope they can produce something even better and add to their website:

http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/airl....html

Hey, great route map there, very helpful. Didn't even remotely know that GOL had that many non-GRU/GIG routes.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
And with the todays press release from Gol stating they will start a new company on Mexico, could be a strong addition to SkyTeam alliance.

Although, setting up an LCC to compete with a Skyteam carrier doesn't sound like a favorable move  Wink .
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:36 pm

Interesting ! How's that going to work from a technical viewpoint - Gol is hosted on Navitaire, I didn't think Navitaire could cope with codeshare, as normally LCC's don't codeshare. I could be wrong, however.

With or without codeshare, it means interlined baggage and through check-in - more things that LCC's don't normally do. Should be good for a laugh  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 9):
Thanks for the info Felipe, now I have a clearer picture of what's happening. By the way do you know the status of GOL's expansion to CCS?

Luis, nowadays there is no such plan (flying to CCS). GOL will announce new international plans on january 2006, let's wait for them. Probably they will consolidate south routes (Montevideo, Bs As, Assuncion, Santa Cruz de La Sierra and Santiago). With a Hub on GIG, plans could be changed.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
Hey, great route map there, very helpful. Didn't even remotely know that GOL had that many non-GRU/GIG routes.

In fact Gol hub's is nowadays CGH. But they really have a lot of flights from CNF, BSB, SSA for example. Gol network is very smart as they believe in regional service like GIG-VIX, SSA-AJU, REC-Petrolina, FOR-THE, BEL-MCP, RBR-PVH, NAV-JOI, NAV-POA. Smart move!

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
And with the todays press release from Gol stating they will start a new company on Mexico, could be a strong addition to SkyTeam alliance.

Although, setting up an LCC to compete with a Skyteam carrier doesn't sound like a favorable move .

You're right. I forget about the local SkyTeam carrier (AM).

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
N77014
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:16 am

Sooner rather than later, GOL will run out of domestic routes to exploit in the home market. Adding high-yield codeshare pax from DL, AF, and later, CO, will go a long way to helping it compete against bigger players, and build a reputation should they decide to expand beyond Brazil.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 14):
Sooner rather than later, GOL will run out of domestic routes to exploit in the home market. Adding high-yield codeshare pax from DL, AF, and later, CO, will go a long way to helping it compete against bigger players, and build a reputation should they decide to expand beyond Brazil.

Good point. Also they could improve the code share in the future in a way to their pax can board to US and Europe thru DL,AF,CO and others. If they start a FF program, it become so important to keep pax into it's services a big network with international options. In the future they can start service to ATL for example, using DL extensive network on the US.

Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
N1120A
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 11):
I didn't think Navitaire could cope with codeshare, as normally LCC's don't codeshare

Hey, if WN's really, really old system can do it, Open Skies should
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:36 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Hey, if WN's really, really old system can do it, Open Skies should

WN's really really old system is based on the original PARS system (it was originally Braniff's COWBOY system, I believe), and was built originally with interlining in mind. Navitaire is a new-build system where the possibility of interlining was never taken into account, because their customers didn't require it - it is/was anathema to LCC's. I'm not saying it's impossible, not at all, but it might need a bit of work.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
Good point. Also they could improve the code share in the future in a way to their pax can board to US and Europe thru DL,AF,CO and others. If they start a FF program, it become so important to keep pax into it's services a big network with international options. In the future they can start service to ATL for example, using DL extensive network on the US.

I truly doubt Gol will ever fly to Atlanta. I also don't think they will be operating anything larger than a 737. It would go entirely agaist their business model that keeps them profitable. I wouldn't be surprised to see them flying to Miami in the next 3-5 years, but with 73Gs from Manaus and/or Belem.
a.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
I truly doubt Gol will ever fly to Atlanta. I also don't think they will be operating anything larger than a 737. It would go entirely agaist their business model that keeps them profitable. I wouldn't be surprised to see them flying to Miami in the next 3-5 years, but with 73Gs from Manaus and/or Belem.

You could be right. But Mark don't you think that one day (as N77014 stated) the domestic market will be saturated and will be minor conditions for improvement (besides there are several little cities without regular service that could be reached by E-Jets for example), and as you probably agree there is a limited market O&D BEL-MIA or MAO-MIA (already with some frequencies). With a own fleet of around 30 aircrafts (plus other leased) probably Gol will be in condition to establish a long haul fleet. After South America i believe they will start plans to add international flights to its network. ATL with a good code share with DL could be one option but not the only one.
What do you think ?

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
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TR763
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:57 am

I agree with you Lipe. I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 or 6 years we see:
http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00004518.jpg

Awesome isn't it???

Best Rgs!
TR763
Image
Picture by Justin Cederholm at MCO.
 
fewsolarge
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:46 am

Assuming they do hook up tightly with AF, DL and SkyTeam, I would be surprised if they or DL didn't start ATL-BSB. (Naturally, based on connection opportunities on both ends). Another interesting consideration: How attractive will FLL become in comparison to MIA for any potential SkyTeam affiliate in South America?
 
commavia
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 21):
Assuming they do hook up tightly with AF, DL and SkyTeam, I would be surprised if they or DL didn't start ATL-BSB

ATL-BSB? I feel quite safe in saying that ATL-BSB isn't going to happen any time soon. I personally doubt it will ever happen. There is virtually no market for it.

In the U.S., MIA is pretty much the only gateway that could support nonstop or direct flights to BSB, and probably (hopefully) will be getting that flight in the next 2-3 years via AA 757s to MIA.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 21):
Assuming they do hook up tightly with AF, DL and SkyTeam, I would be surprised if they or DL didn't start ATL-BSB. (Naturally, based on connection opportunities on both ends). Another interesting consideration: How attractive will FLL become in comparison to MIA for any potential SkyTeam affiliate in South America?

Fewsolarge, i have to disagree with you. BSB is a major airport, yes it is. But if you take a more accurate look you will see that BSB have routes like BSB-CGH, BSB-GIG, and also BSB-MAO, BSB-PVH, BSB-GYN, and many routes to Northeast (specially JJ). They only connect domestic pax but it's not a strong O&D Market for international flights. I agree with Commavia that only a MIA flight has market for the US. To Europe, a single LIS 3 times per week flight will take care of demand. Also BSB is not a touristic or congress destination.

More than 10,000 top salaries on BSB are in fact people that generally every week come back to its cities (mainly Rio and São Paulo) and they are more than 10% of all BSB pax. Other 200,000 monthly pax come from MAO, BEL, THE, SLS, FOR, RBR, PVH, MCP and other cities to Sao Paulo, Rio and south thru BSB (due to the lack of non stop flights).
Without them, BSB is comparable to GIG and even SSA.

I don't expect non stop international flights to BSB on the next 3 years. Could be one day a BSB-FOR-MIA.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting TR763 (Reply 20):
Awesome isn't it???

Best Rgs!
TR763

Amazing, may be in 2011 we can travel on a long haul flight with even a GOL Biz service. On the speed they are growing, i do expect they start long hauls on the near future.

Rgds,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Thucydides
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting MarkATL (Reply 1):
Except for maybe ATL, CDG, SEL and perhaps PRG....Where is Sky Team not loosing ground?



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 3):
You gotta be kidding me.
NW at MEM/MSP/DTW, CO at IAH/CLE/EWR, KLM at AMS, soon Copa(PTY), Tarom (OTP), Air Europa (MAD,BCN,PMI) and Kenya (NBO). Yeah, Skyteam is definitely losing ground everywhere.



Quoting MauriceB (Reply 4):
guess you have never heard of AMS before... its a hub for 2 big Skyteam airlines, KLM and NWA... and lots of AF, CSA, Delta, Co in here...

And let's not forget NW at NRT...
 
N77014
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RE: Air France And Delta Negociate With GOL

Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
I truly doubt Gol will ever fly to Atlanta. I also don't think they will be operating anything larger than a 737. It would go entirely agaist their business model that keeps them profitable. I wouldn't be surprised to see them flying to Miami in the next 3-5 years, but with 73Gs from Manaus and/or Belem.

Correct. But today's B737's are high performance aircraft that could make regional routes to CCS, BOG, EZE, SCL, LIM, etc, all within reach of several brazilian markets.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...