EI101
Topic Author
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Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:52 pm

Dear All,
There has been a lot of recent reporting in the Irish media re expansion of the Aer Lingus longhaul fleet, with a 'number of new routes being considered'. Crewing issues appear to have been resolved and a deadline for renewal of the lease on some of the 330 fleet occurs next Friday. (source:The Irish Times).

Does anyone know what these routes may be, or else what routes would you guys like to see starting at EI?
Me, I'd love to see DUB-DXB, maybe in conjunction with EK, and DUB-YYZ/YVR.
Cheers.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting EI101 (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what these routes may be, or else what routes would you guys like to see starting at EI?

They've been wanting to launch Miami and San Francisco for years, though they've had problems getting the US DOT to approve it.
a.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:22 am

Nice to see EI looking to expand.
Although very unlikely, I would love to see EI in YYZ.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
dutchjet
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:28 am

Its my understanding that as far as long haul is concerned, Aer Lingus is only interested in more transatlantic routes to the US - as mentoned above, Miami and San Francisco are two cities that AerLingus wants to add - and some type of service to Orlando. They have had trouble getting governmental authority, and, of course, there is the SNN stopover issue that many airlines (especially US carriers) would like to see go away.
 
Joost
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:34 am

When Ireland would give up the SNN stopover, there would be no problem of negotiating some kind of open skies agreement with the US. With SNN being a Ryanair base, I can see an issue of unemployment when giving up SNN as partly solved.

It is due to its geographical position normal that EI is mostly looking at US routes. The can get feed for Europe - North American traffic, not for Europe - middle and far east.
 
jetblueatjfk
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:44 am

Also if they secure some more A330's in their fleet I am sure you will see some more Canada cities and maybe some Central America or Caribbean. But I saw an article in an Irish Newspaper that an A330 broke down and they had to rent a plane for JFK and BOS flights and that their would be lots of problems since they overbook most flights and always have left over PAX. But also in that article it said that Aer Lingus would like to re start seasonal service to BWI but can't until they get more aircrafts so I am sure BWI is #3 on that list behind Miami and San Fran.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:49 am

Quoting AirbusfanYYZ (Reply 2):
Although very unlikely, I would love to see EI in YYZ.

What about YUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 5):
Also if they secure some more A330's in their fleet I am sure you will see some more Canada cities and maybe some Central America or Caribbean.

AerLingus has no interest in flying to Latin America or the Caribbean - there is simply no market for these flights. If they can get the MIA route started, whatever demand that there is can route via MIA onto AA, a OneWorld partner. Service to holiday destinations like Cancun and the Dominican Republic are handled by charter carriers as part of package holiday deals.

AerLingus also seems to have little interest in opening routes to Canada, not sure why, but I suspect the yeilds on routes to Canada would be poor and/or the demand would be highly seasonal. I think that any longhaul expansion will be all about additional service to the US - and for those routes, the A330 is a very good airliner: a mix of A332s and A333s could handle the missions very well......will AerLingus dump their early build older A333s for new models is the question. Another possibility is to lease a small number of additional A330s for the short to medium term and then update the fleet with the 787 or A350 families. I dont see AerLingus switiching over to Boeing at this point in time....the 777 is too big for many of the routes (its simply too much airplane) and 767 family is a long-shot at this point in time.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
AerLingus also seems to have little interest in opening routes to Canada, not sure why, but I suspect the yeilds on routes to Canada would be poor and/or the demand would be highly seasonal

Why not, I see lots of Irish in Montreal. We got the second biggest St.Patrick parrade in North America.!!!
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:46 am

If your talking about Aer Lingus expanding their widebody fleet-I'd keep a heads up for a twin-either an A330 or a 777.
121
 
PADSpot
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
They've been wanting to launch Miami and San Francisco for years, though they've had problems getting the US DOT to approve it.

Excuse my ignorance, but I would be pleased if someone could explain to me why exactly the US would want to deny their approvement for flights to MIA And SFO? And why do they want Air Lingus to cease their stop-over at Shannon ? Especially the latter issue sound pretty strange to me ...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Miami and San Francisco are two cities that AerLingus wants to add - and some type of service to Orlando.

Didn't they reason that due to crew action regarding long haul crew requirements they couldn't operate MCO and further American destinations?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dstc47
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:16 am

"Excuse my ignorance, but I would be pleased if someone could explain to me why exactly the US would want to deny their approvement for flights to MIA And SFO?"......


Simply put the issue of the Irish and EU bilateral air agreements is a longstanding problem area and going to be hard to resolve. The Irish side has, in the past been very restrictive, not least in access to Dublin. For many years no US carriers could serve Dublin Airport at all. More recently the "Shannon stopover rule" impedes all carriers, - Delta in particular has been very critical of the cost implications.

In any such agreement both parties will want to have their concerns addressed - the US side is thus unlikely to be particularly generous, without changes on the Irish side, particularly the ending or phasing out of the Shannon stopover. The issue is further complicated by the judgement of the European Court, which gives the EU rights in relation to any US / Ireland successsor agreement.
 
gigneil
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 10):
And why do they want Air Lingus to cease their stop-over at Shannon ?

Because nobody wants to fly to Shannon, and the Irish government forces them to. It costs airlines time and money.

N
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:32 am

Would really like to see Aer Lingus expand on transatlantic and we are more likely to see the A333 and A350. Aer Lingus should really get into MIA and SFO. Glad to see the argument over crew requirements resolved and they now dont have to pull out of MCO.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 12):
Simply put the issue of the Irish and EU bilateral air agreements is a longstanding problem area and going to be hard to resolve. The Irish side has, in the past been very restrictive, not least in access to Dublin. For many years no US carriers could serve Dublin Airport at all. More recently the "Shannon stopover rule" impedes all carriers, - Delta in particular has been very critical of the cost implications.

In any such agreement both parties will want to have their concerns addressed - the US side is thus unlikely to be particularly generous, without changes on the Irish side, particularly the ending or phasing out of the Shannon stopover. The issue is further complicated by the judgement of the European Court, which gives the EU rights in relation to any US / Ireland successsor agreement.

Ok, thank you for the kind information. That explains a lot.

Seems to be a micture of structural subidy and protectionism. Why don't they accept direct flights to DUB by foreign carriers. Then Air Lingus and the other local airlines could fly the people that wish to back to SNN. Doing it this way both parties could get a piece of the cake ... Ireland has been the top performer among all EU economies during the last years. I cannot believe that Air Lingus really needs this kind of protectionism ... About 10 years ago I've been to SNN because of a boat tour. We met loads of tourists there that came by air, so I don't think SNN needs this kind of subsidy either ...
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
Because nobody wants to fly to Shannon

Air Canada flies YYZ-DUB-SNN-YYZ. But its only in the summer.
 
dstc47
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:55 am

The protectionism is not for the benefit of Aer Lingus, or any airline.

The protectionism is for the airport - Shannon and is in response to strong local interests who oppose any change.

Aer Lingus also oppose the "Shannon stopover" and wish to see it end. After all the stopover costs them money too, - I recall having seen four passengers get off at Shannon from Baltimore / Washington, when the aircraft stopped there at an ungodly hour in the morning, so that all the remaining passengers bound for Dublin were delayed for an hour and a half to make Shannon locals happy.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:01 am

The Irish are concerned that if airlines are not required to stop in SNN, all of the US carriers will drop service to that city and AerLingus will likely do the same, the Irish want SNN utilized (and utilized for longhaul) and there are political concerns since the Shannon area is not very strong economically, and the if the US carriers pullout and AerLingus also drops the SNN stopover, many will lose their jobs making the economic situation even worse. Presently, a 50/50 rule is in effect......50% of flight from the US to Ireland must go to SNN and the other 50% can go to Dublin, while the demand, in real life, is probably something like 20% to SNN (if that) and 80% to Dublin. This is why many US airlines plus AerLingus operate a XXX-DUB-SNN-XXX routings (50/50) and then split up flights during the Summer when demand increases.....for example, CO has a seperate EWR-SNN and EWR-DUB service, the SNN flight operates with a 757 and the DUB operates with a 764 (that is generally fully booked).

Politics and regualtions such as these usually dont work, and there would probably be more flights to Ireland (read....Dublin) if the SNN stopover regulation was not if effect, the stopover costs time and money, and forces an airline to offer service to a city that cannot support it, which is especially problematic during a time period where many airlines, especially the US legacy carriers, cannot figure out a way to become profitable. The regulation also hurts AerLingus, they are also stuck with SNN, and it limits their ability to compete for connecting traffic going beyond Ireland.....most pax do not want to fly XXX-SNN-DUB and then connect to a flight from Dublin to another European capital.

Hopefully, the regulations will be changed, but both sides have been rather stubborn thus far (no different that the Bermuda 2 treaty) and all kinds of non-essential issues get mixed into the negotiations. Ireland wants greater access to the US, the US carriers dont want to go to SNN, it seems so simple but it is not.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:04 am

Ok Ok OK you don't need to wright a whole love story! LOL Big grin
 
dutchjet
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 19):
Ok Ok OK you don't need to wright a whole love story! LOL

I wish that the story had a happy ending, end SNN, and that would increase service to Ireland!!!!!
 
sllevin
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 17):
The protectionism is for the airport - Shannon and is in response to strong local interests who oppose any change.

More accurately it's protections for Western Ireland, whichdoes a lot of tourist business. Concerns are (rightly so) that without service to Shannon, a lot of those folks would find their way to Glasgow or Edinburgh in the summer, as to avoid the 3+ hour drive west from Dublin (keeping in mind that the roads from Dublin west are all two lane roads).

Steve
 
EI101
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:28 pm

RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:22 am

I suppose part of the problem here is that with the SNN stopover, EI has limited expansion room, in more ways than one. With the recent improvement of the short-haul network, EI could viably hope to attract stateside passengers travelling to Europe to transit in Dublin. This really wasnt an option in the bad ol' days of the Shannon stopover in the 1980s. At the moment, largely coz of SNN, transatlantic EI service is aimed only at US visitors to Ireland or Irish visitors to the US, and def. not to the transit passenger.

BTW, would the 332 have sufficient range in order to fly DUB-JNB? The newspapers in Ireland seem convinced that south africa was on the EI list, but had to be pulled because of the recent industrial relations problems.
 
EIN145
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:36 am

Quoting EI101 (Reply 22):
BTW, would the 332 have sufficient range in order to fly DUB-JNB? The newspapers in Ireland seem convinced that south africa was on the EI list, but had to be pulled because of the recent industrial relations problems.

I think the A330-200 must have sufficient range for JNB as I saw a charter for JNB in DUB one day and it was being operated on an A332 by LTU airlines. To my knowledge there was no enroute stop.

I think the A333 and A332 together gives quite a versatile long-haul fleet, I imagine Aer Lingus will stick with Airbus for long-haul expansion as they have considerable experience with the manufacturer. Perhaps if they do not choose the A330 they may go for the A350.
 
KL808
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting EI101 (Reply 22):
would the 332 have sufficient range in order to fly DUB-JNB?

At 5855 miles I would think the A332 can make the journey. SAA used to operate A332 leased from TAM to LHR, ZRH, and MXP.


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STARalliance24
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:18 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 24):
At 5855 miles I would think the A332 can make the journey

That's a heck of a ride!  eyebrow 
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:33 am

I wonder what pax use SNN - I highly doubt much leisure holiday traffic would get off at SNN, they would probably want to go to DUB and eastern Ireland as well. If only VFR traffic ever uses SNN then this rule is truly stupid . . .

Still, I wonder if our Australian government can try this trick. Would be absolutely fantastic for regional tourism if flights from Asia has to stop in at Broome, Derby, Alice Springs or Darwin!  biggrin   bigthumbsup 
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
wunala
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 26):
Still, I wonder if our Australian government can try this trick. Would be absolutely fantastic for regional tourism if flights from Asia has to stop in at Broome, Derby, Alice Springs or Darwin!

Don't be going putting ideas in their heads. The cost of fares would increase to cover airport landing charges, not to mention the extra hours that would be added on to a flight.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:50 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
for example, CO has a seperate EWR-SNN and EWR-DUB service, the SNN flight operates with a 757 and the DUB operates with a 764 (that is generally fully booked).

The SNN flights are full too.

M
 
EIN145
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:10 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 26):



Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 26):
I wonder what pax use SNN - I highly doubt much leisure holiday traffic would get off at SNN, they would probably want to go to DUB and eastern Ireland as well. If only VFR traffic ever uses SNN then this rule is truly stupid . . .

I have known several families of American tourists who will arrive in DUB and depart form SNN or do that in reverse. This way as they drive around the country they do not have to backtrack.

While I obviously agree that DUB is the more important destination in terms of traffic and I think the SNN stopover rule is stupid. I also think that there is a market for some direct air services from Shannon. Limerick city is nearby and passengers from all over mid-west and much of the south east prefer to fly from Shannon. But the way I see things, if the market is there then an airline will serve it.
 
vatry
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:38 pm

Shannon attracts transatlantic pax during the tourist season (May-Sep). Most carriers are happy enough to serve Shannon during the summer as the loads are good, but want to drop service for the winter.

The Shannon region is not some poor, underdeveloped area. It has a good industrial base, high living standards and a good road network. The stopover is a political battle. Everyone knows it's not needed, but local politicians work on the basis of "we hold what we have" and will fight for it every step of the way. The Irish government would love the EU to order the end of the stopover, as it would avoid the government having to make a decision and therefore shouldering any responsibility.

Meanwhile we are left with the ridiculous situation where the EI Orlando-Dublin A330 lands at Shannon, sits on the ground for a few minutes to let the brakes cool and then takes off again for Dublin.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:28 pm

Quoting Vatry (Reply 30):
Meanwhile we are left with the ridiculous situation where the EI Orlando-Dublin A330 lands at Shannon, sits on the ground for a few minutes to let the brakes cool and then takes off again for Dublin.

Doesn't this cost EI money as well? Couldn't they argue that even their services are better off flying directly to DUB for another EI flight to take pax to SNN? Or do they put up with it knowing if they got the SNN rule scrapped they would end up with a smaller share of the Irish aviation pie?
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
vatry
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:13 pm

It costs EI a huge amount of money and they been screaming for the rule to be scrapped for at least 20 years. There may have been an argument that it protected EI back in the 70's, but in today's market all it does is strangle development.

Please note that the Orlando flight does not go to the terminal at Shannon. It literally lands, lets the brakes cool and takes off again.
 
LGW
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:38 pm

Hi all,

Basically it is a nightmare situation because all sides have valid points.

The airlines say, quite rightly it is not competitive and in some respects does not make sence, the goverment don't want to find the Shannon region becomes economically depressed by having higher unemployment and reduced tourism and on the other hand the Shannon locals who do use the services to the US do not want to fly into DUB and have a 3 hour treck across Ireland to get home.

Shannon, because of it's geographical location is a strategic link for transatlantic operations of all carriers and so it is in no one's benefit for the airport to become a ghost airport.

Although there is no doubt DUB is more attractive for US visitors for people to say no one wants to fly to SNN is a view which is uneducated and incorrect. I have been to the Shannon region a number of times and flown into SNN many times as well and there are many US visitors around Limerick, Blarney, Bunratty and other Western parts of Ireland.

As I said before, the problem is what ever happens, whether the stop over stays or go's there will always be one side happy and one side unhappy.

Cheers

Ben Pritchard
 
Eirules
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:13 am

Those LTU flights from DUB-JNB do make a stop over, in Lanzarote I believe. But thats not to say that a 332 cant make it non stop
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 9):
If your talking about Aer Lingus expanding their widebody fleet-I'd keep a heads up for a twin-either an A330 or a 777.

If they don't go with a 777 I would put my money on an eventual A-350 order.
One Nation Under God
 
kaitak
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RE: Aer Lingus Longhaul Fleet Expansion

Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:32 am

Very interesting thread! Let me make a few comments, as someone who has been involved directly in these issues and (along with one of our moderators, Teahan) has set up an Irish aviation lobby group, Grounded Ireland, which you can visit at www.grounded-ireland.com.

It's a sad and extremely frustrating situation. Aer Lingus, as has been said, wants to expand, firstly on transatlantic flights and later on routes to Asia and possibly South Africa.

The airline has a planning nightmare: the EU/US might do a deal by the end of the year, but where does it get the kind of aircraft it needs at short notice? Because of the runway length at DUB (8,650', with absolutely no understanding of the limitations this causes or intention of extending it), only twins can be used; where do you get A332s or 777s at short notice? If EI does get the rights, all other European carriers will get them as well, which would allow the likes of VS, for example, to set up an Irish operation. Aer Lingus has huge potential to expand, but it's been held back for years by the one group of people who should be pushing it forward: its own shareholder, the Irish government.

If the govt wants to help Shannon, then focus on Shannon, but clearly nothing is being achieved by holding DUB back just to help SNN; it doesn't work like that. The govt only succeeds in undermining Dublin and EI's potential to develop a hub there.

Then there's Canada: you'd think that would be an important and successful market from Ireland; after all, on the great circle from Europe, Canada is the closest country to Ireland (indeed to anywhere in Europe), but no, the Irish govt has spotted that opportunity and spiked it. Nothing gets past these people when they want to obstruct growth; I had a question tabled in the Irish parliament recently and basically, there are "no plans" (a polite way of saying we haven't the slightest interest) to do anything about it. The sad situation is that even now, it's easier to reach much of Canada from Ireland via ORD with AA than via YYZ with AC. It underlines how pathetic the situation is when the best thing Canada could do for us would be to revoke the Irish air bilateral. With a responsible and realistic deal in place, AC could be flying daily A330s (ok, possibly 763s in Winter), but the potential is there for far better performance than we now see.

You can probably tell the level of frustration I have from my comments above; however, we will get through and we will achieve success in making aviation work for the Irish economy, despite the best efforts of the Irish government to obstruct that growth.

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