squirrel83
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Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:57 am

US authorities have ordered an Air France flight from Paris to Chicago to turn around after only two hours in the air after concerns about a passenger.

"After the plane had left the Americans reacted and said that one of the passengers had a name that was on their list," French police said.

Flight AF050 landed at Charles de Gaulle airport at 1915 (1715 GMT) on Friday, four hours after taking off.

The passenger in question and four others were taken for checks.

There was no information given on the names of the passengers, their age or nationalities.

Air France said the flight would take off again in the evening, after the plane had been checked over.

French police said flights from France to Britain and the United States were being treated with extra caution following Thursday's bomb attacks in London, AFP reported.

In May flights from Italy and France to Boston were diverted because of fears about passengers on board.

In September last year a flight carrying the singer Cat Stevens to the US was diverted because the name he adopted when he became a Muslim, Yusuf Islam, was on the US no-fly list.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4666317.stm
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mNeo
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:26 am

Now wount it be smart for the US to give out a Compy of the No fly list to Airports around the world, so that those unlucky enough to have the same name as potential terrosrits can be checked out, instead of diverting a whole plane 2 hours after takeoff.
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LFutia
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:45 am

here's the flight details:

Flight information


Information last updated at 3:41 AM Paris time


All times shown are local times

AF 050

Flight left from Paris (CDG) at 1:54 PM on July 8, 2005
Returns from Paris (CDG) at 2:18 PM on July 8, 2005
Flight left from Paris (CDG) at 3:03 PM on July 8, 2005
Returns from Paris (CDG) at 7:37 PM on July 8, 2005
Flight left from Paris (CDG) at 11:45 PM on July 8, 2005
Scheduled arrival in Chicago (ORD) at 1:59 AM on July 9, 2005


Departs Arrives
Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - FRANCE, Terminal 2E
1:15 PM, on July 8, 2005
Chicago, O'Hare Intl (ORD) - USA, Terminal 5
3:25 PM, on July 8, 2005

Comments

As a safety precaution, flight AF050 has returned to CDG
Flight AF050 has been delayed as a safety precaution.

It also had an operational disruption too. but it looks like AF removed that portion.

Here is AF51 back to Paris:

AF 051
Scheduled departure from Chicago (ORD) at 3:30 AM on July 9, 2005
Scheduled arrival in Paris (CDG) at 6:23 PM on July 9, 2005


Departs Arrives

Chicago, O'Hare Intl (ORD) - USA, Terminal 5
5:40 PM, on July 8, 2005
Paris, Charles de Gaulle (CDG) - FRANCE, Terminal 2E
8:50 AM, on July 9, 2005

Comments

Flight AF051 is delayed.
New AF flight number AF051A.
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aircanada333
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:19 am

That's too bad for the other passengers....they had to wait four hours in the air to arrive at the departure place.
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alberchico
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:22 am

Now let's wait for some idiot to start basing the U.S. for its security policies.
The last time we discussed this in the KLM flight forum things went crazy......
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:29 am

Too bad for the passengers, but a smart move, especially after the events of this past week.

It's just a completely new way for us to live.

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aircanada333
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
Too bad for the passengers, but a smart move, especially after the events of this past week.

I agree with you at 100%.
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avek00
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:42 am

Quoting MNeo (Reply 1):
Now wount it be smart for the US to give out a Compy of the No fly list to Airports around the world

No, it wouldn't be smart in the least - remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.
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alberchico
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 7):
remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.

Yes and U.S airlines don't fly to those cities.
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Venezuela747
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:13 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):

Yes and U.S airlines don't fly to those cities.

I would disagree with that

Anyways lets not turn this into that type of discussion about the US and terrorism.

I would like to know tho how much is this costing airlines...anyone who can give me figures?
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SA7700
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:47 pm

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 5):
Too bad for the passengers, but a smart move, especially after the events of this past week

I agree to an extent, but why can't they (USA) compare the pax manifest with their "list" before the plane actually takes off - I don't get it?


Rgds

SA7700
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Udo
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:43 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 7):

No, it wouldn't be smart in the least - remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.

Who? France, Germany or the rest of the EU?


Regards
Udo
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ua777222
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:02 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 10):
I agree to an extent, but why can't they (USA) compare the pax manifest with their "list" before the plane actually takes off - I don't get it?

My only guess could be last min. passengers or those who are either on standby or purchased a ticket at the airport the day of. Now it is the airlines' job (those in the EU) to take care of checking their list and send off the manifest to the country of the destionation. Now when the US runs it and finds a name they want they turn the a/c around. It's the airlines' fault for allowing the passenger on the aircraft but I guess it's hard to run a name if they get on the aircraft only 5min before departure.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 7):
No, it wouldn't be smart in the least - remember, some countries actually SUPPORT terrorists and criminal syndicates.

What kind of reasoning is that? I know of no major airline that flies into the United States that would put their certificate with the FAA at such a risk. And even if you are right there are far more countries that despise such actions and would have no problem rejecting any flight plans of the airline. VS, BA, UA, AF, etc. are all airlines that have major hubs around the world and would probably have no issues rejecting a passenger at the gate if they knew that person(s) was on a no-fly list. I'm sorry but you make no sense at all.

Matt
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wunala
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:16 pm

Why can't the lists be checked prior to take off? It wouldn't be that hard to pre-screen the crafts list, say 24 hours before the flight, with additional screening of pax changes within the last 24 hours. Any walk up pax on the day, would be subject to further checks if applicable.

Who pays for that waste of 4 hours? The airline, the US? Does AF need to pay the extra landing and take off fees at CDG?

I think that the US needs to adopt a better model that the one the have. I agree it is about safety, but, I think if the plane has taken off, then it should go to its destination and be dealt with there.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:24 pm

Better safe than sorry, thats all I can say, these inconvenices will happen from time to time due to the terrorist threats that exist in our world enviornment. Even if the action was not necessary or in error (it has happened), necessary precautions must be taken.

As for the list - you dont really think its a document or a booklet with a list of names, do you that the governments can give out to airlines and other users - its a computer base that is constantly being updated, revised and changed based on intellegence and other information. The pax manifest should be processed and cleared prior to departure, but occassionally things will go wrong and errors will occur and action will be required after the subject flight has departed. And, before anyone over-reacts, remember how many international flights per day enter the US and how rare a flight is cancelled or turned back due to security questions concerning pax on board that flight.

And, of course, the nations of the EU work in coordination with the US on matters such as these - they all work on the "list" together, for all we know, French intellegence could have gotten some new information about the pax(s) and they themselves suggested that the aircraft come back - none of us know exactly how this works, and thats the idea.

Its going to be difficult couple of weeks following the London attacks - and flights out of Paris, for some reason, have always been a concern.
 
gkirk
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:44 pm

I hope the airlines recieve compensation from the US for this stupidity. Just give airlines the list of names dammit.
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ua777222
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:11 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
I hope the airlines recieve compensation from the US for this stupidity. Just give airlines the list of names dammit.

Show me where it states that the airline worked hand and hand with the United States to check every last name. Until then they had what they had coming.

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HAWK21M
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:31 pm

Quoting Wunala (Reply 13):
Why can't the lists be checked prior to take off

Exactly the Question.What is the Problem with that.Can the list be checked prior to departure.Fuel Wastage & Pax Inconvenience can be avoided.
regds
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PipoA380
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:51 pm

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 16):

Show me where it states that the airline worked hand and hand with the United States to check every last name.

Actually this is just a policy of the United States, and if they want to have a no-fly list, they have to make sure everything is allright, and they have to check what's coming in and out prior to departures. OK if they don't want this guy or that one, it's their right, but all other passengers have to pay for that, and AF too. I personnaly don't like the US's policy about that, but let's not talk about that here.

AFs job is to fly, so I just hope that the US will pay AF for that landing and lost time.
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xpat
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:05 pm

I'm not trying to make light of this situation at all. When 'planes have to turn back due to some person on the no fly list, do passengers get extra frequent flyer points for the extra "actual miles" flown? I think it would be a small compensation for the hassle and aggravation caused to passengers who are on aboard.
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ua777222
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RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:10 pm

Seeing as it is an EU airline the passengers did't get off too bad. I made this up for another post. Took me a while. It's the EU Passenger's rights; (Mind all spelling errors)

---------------------------------------------------

As for your rights as a EU Passenger;

Denied Boarding and Cancellation
If you are denied boarding or your flight is cancelled, the airline operation your flight must offer you a financial compensation and assistance. These rights apply, provided you check in on time, for any flight, including charters:

  • from an EU airport, or
  • to an EU airport from one outside the EU, when operated by an EU airline


Denied Boarding
When there are too many passengers for the seats available, an airline must first ask for volunteers to give up their seats in return for agreed benefits. These must include the choice of either refund of your ticket (with a free flight back to your initial point of departure, when relevant) or alternative transport to your final destination.

If you are not a volunteer, the airline must pay you compensation of:


  • €250 for flights of 1,500km or less
  • €400 for longer flights within the EU, and for other flights between 1,500km and 3,500km
  • €600 for flights over 3,000 km outside the EU.


Compensation my be halved if you a e not delayed more than 2, 3, or 4 hours, respectively.

The airline must also give you:


  • A choice of either a refund of your ticket (with a free flight back to your initial point of departure, when relevant) or alternative transport to your final destination, and
  • Meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation when necessary (including transfers) and communication facilities


Cancellation

Whenever your flight is cancelled, the operating airline must give you:


  • A choice of either a refund of your ticket (with a free flight back to your initial point of departure, when relevant) or alternative transport to your final destination, and
  • Meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation when necessary (including transfers) and communication facilities.


The airline may also have to compensate you, at the same level as for denied boarding, unless it give you sufficient advance notice. You shall be informed about alternative transport.

Refunds may be in cash, by bank transfer or cheque or, with your signed agreement, in travel vouchers, and must be paid within 7 days to avoid further penalties.

If you do not receive these rights, complain immediately to the airline operating the flight.


Long Delays

Immediate Assistance

If you check in on time for any flight, including charters;

  • from an EU airport, or
  • to an EU airport from one outside the EU, when operated by an EU airline,

    and if the airline operating the flight expects a delay

    • of 2 hours or more, for flights of 1,500km or less
    • of 3 hours or more, for longer flights within the EU, and for other flights between 1,500km and 3,500km,
    • of 4 hours or more for flights over 3,500km outside the EU,


    The airline must give you meals and refreshments, hotel accommodations when necessary (including transfers) and communication facilities.

    When the delay is 5 hours or more, the airlines must also offer to refund your ticket (with a free flight back toy our initial point of departure, when relevant)

    If you do not receive these rights, complain immediately to the airline operating the flight.

    Later Claims

    When the EU airline is responsible for the delay of a flight anywhere in the world, you may claim up to 4,150 SDR (*) for any resulting damages. If the airline does not agree with your claim, you may go to court.

    You can claim form the airline with which you have a contract or form that actually operating the flight, if they are different.

    Baggage

    You may also claim up to 1,000 SDR (*) for damages caused by the destruction, damage, or loss or delay of your baggage on a flight by an EU airline, anywhere in the world. If the airline does not agree with your claim, you may go to court.

    For damage to check-in baggage, you must claim in writing within 7 days of its return and for delayed baggage within 21 days of its return.

    You can claim from the airline with which you have a contract or form that actually operating the flight, if they are different

    (*) 1 SDR = €1.18
    For the current exchange rate, contact Europe Direct

    Injury and death in accidents

    You may claim for damages caused by injury or death resulting from an accident on a flight by an EU airline, anywhere in the world. You have the right to an advance payment for immediate economic needs, if the airline does not agree with your claim, you may go to court.

    You can claim from the airline with which you have a contract or form that actually operating the flight, if they are different.

    Package Holidays

    In addition to the rights described above, you may claim damaged from your tour operator if it fails to provide the services you have booked within the EU, whatever your destination. These rights apply to failure to provide any flight included in your package. Moreover, if the tour operator does not provide a significant part of the package booked, it is obliged to assist you and make alternative arrangements including travel, without extra cost to you.


    ---------------------------------------------------

    Who will pay to offer all that? Who knows. Regardless all those passengers should be well aware of these benifts. Because if so, goddamnit I'd board a flight knowing it was going to turn back.

    Take Care,

    Matt
  • "It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
     
    squirrel83
    Posts: 1219
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:27 pm

    Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 9):
    I would like to know tho how much is this costing airlines...anyone who can give me figures?

    I have asked this sevral of times and no one seems to know the answers or who pays for it in the long run. . .

    Quoting Wunala (Reply 13):
    Why can't the lists be checked prior to take off?

    I totally agree I have no clue why they are unable to pre check all passengers considering most PAX already have paid for the ticket by the time of check-in so gathering information should not be a prob. What if a PAX does not check-in, or is unable to board? Possibly they are unable to run the information till check-in is complete, after all in most foreign countries they ask/enter your passport number at the check-in counter so maybe that is an issue. Another possibility could be the US must wait for the airline to submit the final list of PAX that have boarded and by the time the US has reviewed the list, the aircraft is about an 20 minutes to and hour out . . . .
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    avek00
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:40 pm

    Quoting UA777222 (Reply 12):
    I know of no major airline that flies into the United States that would put their certificate with the FAA at such a risk.

    You fail to understand that it has NOTHING to do with airlines themselves - if the No-Fly list was distributed globally, there are many entities that would be able to obtain it (govt. intelligence services, terrorist groups, crime syndicates) without the consent or even knowledge of the airlines. Therefore, it is best to keep the list closely held, secure, and out of the hands of foreigners, with the exception of a few closely trusted allies.

    [Edited 2005-07-09 14:42:45]
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    Gabrielz
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:36 pm

    Quoting Avek00 (Reply 22):
    Therefore, it is best to keep the list closely held, secure, and out of the hands of foreigners

    Avek00, you know (as well as anyone) that who is trustworthy has nothing to do with their nationality...even if it might give one some "clues".

     
    Venezuela747
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:49 pm

    Not only are we talking about landing fees, taxi fees, fuel, crew and all that stuff. You also have to take into consideration all the passenger that are probably going to miss their connections, probably ben forced to put some of them in a hotel when they land in the US. Way too much for the airline to handle themselves
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    avek00
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:55 pm

    Quoting Gabrielz (Reply 23):
    Avek00, you know (as well as anyone) that who is trustworthy has nothing to do with their nationality...even if it might give one some "clues".

    Not at all true - on sensitive matters in the security arena, some countries are simply "trusted" more than others. There are some countries to whom the No-Fly list could be given without problems - others would try to sell the list to the highest bidder or worse, use it to actively undermine US/Western anti-terror efforts.
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    wunala
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:09 pm

    There should not be a need for the US to give out a list. I would assume that the airline would bounce its pax listing to a website/computer and that would process the kist. Then approval would be sent back. No one would have a list, there would be no selling the list on, as ownership always remained with the US. The only names that could be sold on are the rejected names, and that may take a while to compile to make worthwhile (cashwise).
     
    dutchjet
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:26 pm

    I find how some people react to situations such as this rather amazing......


    1. Something like 99.9% of all flights going to the US have absolutely no problems due to the no-fly list or other security matters. If an airliner has a dispatch rate of 99.5%, we thinks its amazing, if an airline has a flight completion rate of 99.5% during a given period, we think its excellent.....but if one flight on rare occasions is diverted or turned around for a potential security concern, some here are outraged....the system works almost all of the time. Why the difference is opinion and reaction? Occasionally flights will be delayed, cancelled or diverted for mechanical or scheduling reasons, we dont like it but we accept it, now accept that very occasionally a flight will be delayed, turned around or even cancelled if there is a credible security issue. Welcome to world as we know it as of 2005.

    2. And, sometimes an error will be made - a flight will be allowed to take off and only later information will be discovered that may result in the flight being diverted or turned around. And, sometimes it will be discovered that there was absolutely no need for the diversion as the information was wrong or inaccurate. This will happen, so what, its better to be more cautious than have another disaster. If a pilot is flying an airliner and gets a message that an engine if overheating, the pilot generally will shut the engine down and land as the nearest practical airport - many times, after the tech people take a look, they discover that the engine was fine and it was nothing more than faulty information - a bad sensor or a false reading - do we criticize the pilot for getting the aircraft on the ground? Do we say that he or she was foolish for diverting or that the pilot should have known that there was nothing really wrong with the engine? Of course not. How are these diversion situations any different from security matters? If there is something that can endanger the pax, the smartest thing is to get the aircraft on to the ground as quickly as possible, and if it was a mistake, so be it.

    3. People talk about this no fly list as if it was a list of names for a wedding - this is very complicated security information and simply cannot be distributed to everyone and anyone who needs it. It changes constantly as things are learned - names are added and deleted. Also note that I am certain the no-fly list includes names like Mary Smith, Tom McDonald, John Lee, Ingrid Stern, Bruce Schwartz and Mohammed Ali - all very common names throughout the world. Do you really want airline check-in and security personal making the decision on who can board and who is really on the no-fly list? In such case, every Tom, Dick and Mohammed worldwide would be denied boarding. Its not that simple and you know it, and when things are so complicated, occasionally mistakes will be made. Do you really expect perfection......I went to grade school with a kid named Richard Reid and, guess what, he was not the shoe bomber.

    Please keep this in perspective - and direct your anger towards the terrorists that make these precautions necessary, not the system that is trying to protect you and keep you and your friend and family in the air and on the ground as safe as possible.
     
    flpuck6
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:47 pm

    UA777222,

    May I ask from which website you got the info for the EU Passenger rights? I'm not at all doubting what you posted; I would love to see the website for myself and print some of the documentation.

    Thanks!
    Bonjour Chef!
     
    ua777222
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:50 pm

    Quoting Flpuck6 (Reply 28):
    UA777222,

    May I ask from which website you got the info for the EU Passenger rights? I'm not at all doubting what you posted; I would love to see the website for myself and print some of the documentation.

    I don't have a website (yet) but I did copy it word for word from a packet I got a while back while traveling in the EU.

    Thanks,

    Matt
    "It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
     
    vanguard737
    Posts: 523
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:58 pm

    THANK YOU DUTCHJET

    It is always assuring to see at least a few Europeans get it. Get that the USA isn't the bad guy, the terrorists are. In our world today the best way to defy terrorism is to go about our everyday lives as best we can. Unfortunatley as London shows we can't always prevent and foil every attemp by terrorism to destroy our way of life. But we have to keep going, and keep hunting them for as long as the terrorists are made to runa nd never given a chance to sit and plan another huge strike like 9/11, we can at least be sure their attemots will be small scale and few and far between, no matter how sinister in their intentions.
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    cgnnrw
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:24 am

    Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
    Do you really expect perfection

    As long as I have to give my personal data e.g. finger prints, photo, meal and seat preferences, whether I bought the ticket with cash or credit card to a foreign government and then be verbally abused by dim witted TSA & Homeland Security Officers when entering the US, yes, dammit I expect perfection.
    A330 man.
     
    dtwclipper
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:44 am

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally.

    And you wonder why we are called Ugly Americans....dude give it a rest!

    Most intelligent Americans do care...Cgnnrw on behalf of such outrageous comments....I apologize!
    Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
     
    lnglive1011yyz
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:46 am

    Quoting SA7700 (Reply 10):
    I agree to an extent, but why can't they (USA) compare the pax manifest with their "list" before the plane actually takes off - I don't get it?

    Why don't passengers check the list of prohibited items that they cannot take on the plane BEFORE they get to the security line?

    The same thing applies -- it's called ONUS. The Onus is on the departing country to check the list.

    Perhaps if the countries that fly into the US would better check the list, these events wouldn't transpire.

    Additionally, I cannot speak to the reliability and / or effectiveness of the US Authorities updating and or supplying the list to all countries that fly into the US, but they also should take some blame as well, IF they are not communicating properly.

    1011yyz
    Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
     
    dutchjet
    Posts: 7714
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:47 am

    Cgnnrw, while I do not agree with your comments, I find DeltaDudes remarks out of line......I think that most here know that Germany and the US are indeed very good friends and allies even if there is a disagreement every now and then.
     
    jcs17
    Posts: 7376
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:57 am

    Quoting SA7700 (Reply 10):
    I agree to an extent, but why can't they (USA) compare the pax manifest with their "list" before the plane actually takes off - I don't get it?

    It's not our job. All of the airlines have the "no-fly" list and they are supposed to cross-check pax manifests against the list before leaving the gate. The Frenchies have been guilty numerous times of not checking the list before departing for the USA, one really wonders when someone from AF's management team will stand up and say "What the hell are we doing leaving the gate with a person whose name appears on a terrorist watch list."
    America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
     
    CHI787ORD
    Posts: 674
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:07 am

    Is there anyone even on staff at those new times for O'hare? at 2 & 3 AM Terminal 5 must be a ghost building.
     
    cgnnrw
    Posts: 1045
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:48 am

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally.

    I couldn't resist checking your profile and my hunch was correct about your age group. I find it amazing someone who isn't old enough to legally buy a six-pack qualifies himself speak on behalf of 260 million Americans. You assume I'm German and to quote a famous 1970s baseball movie "never assume...it makes an ass out you...."

    Hopefully when you graduate from junior high school you'll be able to locate Germany on a map.....  butthead 

    @Dutchjet and DTWClipper - thanks for your support.  thumbsup 
    A330 man.
     
    JMJAirways
    Posts: 208
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:29 am

    Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 33):
    And you wonder why we are called Ugly Americans....dude give it a rest!

    Most intelligent Americans do care...Cgnnrw on behalf of such outrageous comments....I apologize!

    Well said!
    I am willing to pay extra for a A346 flight !
     
    ACDC8
    Posts: 7182
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:38 am

    I think it's a conspiracy. IMO, I think the American government has something against the Skyteam Alliance! Most of the flights are either AF, KL or AZ ....  scratchchin  . Hmmmm, anyone have Michael Moore's phone number?

    (sorry, I just got up and am in dire need of coffee!)
    A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
     
    BHXFAOTIPYYC
    Posts: 1442
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:52 am

    Technically we (travel agents) are supposed to put in pax data into reservations for US bound flights, like full name, date of birth, passport details and more. This was part of the whole EU/US argument a few months ago regarding passenger data protection. Any missing info has to be put in by check in staff, which only then leaves a 2 couple of hours max before take off for the US authorities to check manifests. If anyone is red flagged chances are the plane is already on it's way.

    Ultimately it is up to the Americans to determine how they want things done. That is their right. Don't like it? Don't go.

    Touching on EU compensation rules... whilst some may be delighted with the new level of compensation for pax, ultimately it will be pax who pay. The airlines are constantly reviewing how much they are paying out. They do the same thing insurance companies do - get hit hard one year, hike premiums the next.

    From www.easyjet.com

    New EU Passenger Compensation Rules - easyJet is committed to looking after its customers but warns that bad legislation will be damaging to the industry
    easyJet, Europe’s leading low cost airline, today confirmed its ongoing commitment to high levels of customer service and is ready for the entry into force of the new EU rules on passenger compensation.

    easyJet supports the objective of the new EU legislation - to hold airlines accountable for the level of customer service provided during times of disruption and to improve the experience of the travelling public.

    However, the legislation that will come into effect tomorrow, is a piece of bad law that is unfairly biased against the airline industry and thus damaging. easyJet believes that ultimately the new EU rules will fail to achieve their objective.
    Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
     
    Mexicana757
    Posts: 2635
    Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:01 am

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally.

    Please go and read the news before you start opening your mouth. Germany and the U.S. are allies. And any country can critisize the U.S. wether its an ally or not. People like you that makes the U.S. look bad in the eyes of others.

    Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 37):
    Is there anyone even on staff at those new times for O'hare? at 2 & 3 AM Terminal 5 must be a ghost building

    There are people at Terminal 5 around that time. There are a few flights that arrive and depart that early in the morning out T5. But I think some of those AF agents went home and others stayed behind and rotated shifts.
     
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    TheRedBaron
    Posts: 3081
    Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:08 am

    Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
    Now let's wait for some idiot to start basing the U.S. for its security policies.

    Now lets wait for an idiotic terrorist to think they have to take a FOREIGN nation airplane to make a terrorist attack cross the atlantic, or wait an Idiot to do it locally with a shorter flight time, on a Local (read American ) airline in US soil... with 80 or 90% better chance of success, but I hope next time you use your brain first...

    Quoting Wunala (Reply 13):
    I think that the US needs to adopt a better model that the one the have. I agree it is about safety, but, I think if the plane has taken off, then it should go to its destination and be dealt with there.

    I agree completely, if they have a sleeper (air marshall) and a lot of security and even the no fly list, if they took off, done deal, and in my view terrorist have a lot of ways to screw up things and airplanes now are not the top list.

    Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
    The pax manifest should be processed and cleared prior to departure, but occassionally things will go wrong and errors will occur and action will be required after the subject flight has departed. And, before anyone over-reacts, remember how many international flights per day enter the US and how rare a flight is cancelled or turned back due to security questions concerning pax on board that flight.



    Quoting Gkirk (Reply 15):
    I hope the airlines recieve compensation from the US for this stupidity. Just give airlines the list of names dammit.

    In this wolrs of internet and computers and those who enter the US are "booked', I cannot accept this kind of "mistakes" -and also that later on they dont release the outcome of the ordeal (e.g. if the guy was IS a terrorist or was jailed etc)

    Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 27):
    Please keep this in perspective - and direct your anger towards the terrorists that make these precautions necessary, not the system that is trying to protect you and keep you and your friend and family in the air and on the ground as safe as possible.

    WRONG if they make 3 to 6 mistakes a year then its easy to assume that 3 to 6 airplanes due to mistakes could POTENTIALLY have terrorists inside. If you think that they can not do better BEFORE they depart TOO bad. I think is possible.

    Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 31):
    As long as I have to give my personal data e.g. finger prints, photo, meal and seat preferences, whether I bought the ticket with cash or credit card to a foreign government and then be verbally abused by dim witted TSA & Homeland Security Officers when entering the US, yes, dammit I expect perfection.

    Same here and welcome to the club...

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...

    A request...go out, go buy the lastest Green Day album, listen to American Idiot 10 times, then try to look yourself in the mirror..

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Back to the post....Ducthjet said it best- How many of these happen per year? 3-6. Big Deal. NOT.

    Maybe its no big deal, but its ALWAYS on the news, and I know at least 6 to 8 people that are having secound tought of flying to Europe just because of that, also think of the cargo, what if there is a transplant delivery on that airplane? Sorry Mr. DeltaDude8 but the kidney you waited for 8 years went bad because the plane that was delivering it was diverted. See? that is not much fun is it?

    Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 40):
    I think it's a conspiracy. IMO, I think the American government has something against the Skyteam Alliance! Most of the flights are either AF, KL or AZ .... . Hmmmm, anyone have Michael Moore's phone number?

    You are not crazy I was thinking the same...Does anyone know if a US airline has been diverted BACK?
    The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
     
    Aither
    Posts: 991
    Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:32 am

    Af if a terrorist would use his real name...
    Never trust the obvious
     
    OHLHD
    Posts: 2903
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:34 am

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally.

    What the hell has gotten into you????

    You def watch to much TV.


    I had a discussion with an US-Captain not so long ago during a flight and we both agreed actually, that to avoid a diversion of a flight (e.g) the aircraft should not be let into the air until the passenger names have been checked. Although some changes in connecting times and timetables must be made than, but in general not a bad idea.
    It could of course couse some inconvience to passengers as they have to wait a bit longer in the aircraft.

    As said by a fellow A.netter before, 99.9% of all (into) US flights do not divert, so I do not think it is really a big issue.

    My 2 (euro) Cents  Smile
     
    User avatar
    Starlionblue
    Posts: 17094
    Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:11 am

    Quoting Squirrel83 (Reply 21):
    Quoting Venezuela747 (Reply 9):
    I would like to know tho how much is this costing airlines...anyone who can give me figures?

    I have asked this sevral of times and no one seems to know the answers or who pays for it in the long run. .

    AFAIK the airline pays. Airlines are responsible for who they carry to another country. In the same way they have to pay for the return of asylum seekers without a legal claim if they let them on board.

    If you think about it, it's the only smart way of doing it. By making the airline liable, you add an extra layer of checks.

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):

    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally.

    Back in the real world, terrorism is a problem for EVERYONE. Saying Germany is not a "big ally" of the US is just plain silly. Aren't allies allowed to disagree? Germany is a sovereign nation where the politicians (representing the people) decided they did not agree with some US policies. This doesn't mean they are not allies in the fight on terrorism. The war in Iraq does not equate with the fight against terror in many people's minds, although undoubtebly there are links. If push comes to shove, France and Germany stand on the same side of the fence as the US.

    As soon as they US projects power beyond it's borders, it becomes an international concern and subject to international criticism. You don't have to agree with the criticism, but expecting people to just shut up and take what they don't agree with is unreasonable.

    Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 31):
    As long as I have to give my personal data e.g. finger prints, photo, meal and seat preferences, whether I bought the ticket with cash or credit card to a foreign government and then be verbally abused by dim witted TSA & Homeland Security Officers when entering the US, yes, dammit I expect perfection.

    It's not that easy. Considering how few flights are diverted, I would say they are very close to perfection.
    "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
     
    TheSonntag
    Posts: 4303
    Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:21 am

    Quoting Deltadude8 (Reply 32):
    Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally.

    Back to the post....Ducthjet said it best- How many of these happen per year? 3-6. Big Deal. NOT.

    And if we had denied you the right to use Ramstein, Landstuhl and all other airbases in Germany, the US would have lost the Iraq war... And if we revoked the license for your tank guns, no Abrams Tank would be able to be supported with guns anymore legally...

    We did not do that. Because we are your ally.

    Greetings from your small ally country Germany.
     
    TheSonntag
    Posts: 4303
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:27 am

    To got back on topic, who actually is responsible for that "No Fly list"? Even if diversions are extremely rare, these are, of course, very expensive. Who made that "no Fly" list? And do people who are on that list have a legal way of challenging that decision? I mean, just being on that list does not necessarily mean you are an terrorist, does it?

    Could somebody tell me how the procedure is?

    And, of course I understand the need of the US to protect themselves. It is just the "Fuck you all, I am American and we do it the way I say" attitude shown by some, NOT ALL US people which pisses me off. But I do not have problems with that no Fly list...

    Does that list also apply for US airlines?

    Michael
     
    MarkATL
    Posts: 486
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    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:44 am

    Quote from DeltaDude8

    "Before you bitch remember something- you are not an American...we do not owe you any favors. You are German- and therefore most here in the US don't care what you have to say about our country- You aren't even a big ally- your country believes the US is the big bad wolf- Countries like the UK on the other hand have more say about the US- THEY TRULY are our ally."

    Sorry my "quote selected text" option isn't working.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    This has got to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. If you don't think Germany isn't one of the USAs major allies your just plain stupid! I had the honor of serving in the armed forces and the privilege of serving a part of that time in Germany. I can tell you military, government, economic and socially, Germany is one of our top allies.

    As for their stance on the Iraq war. You have to go back to 1945 during the reconstruction of Germany. When the post war government (and school system) was being created by the allied powers, it was instilled in every German that Germany should not militarily get involved outside of self defense. In fact the allied powers would not allow Germany to establish a military of it's own, until it was agreed they would not be allowed to operate except in self defense. This was the USAs doing.

    Now we have a German government and chancellor raised and schooled under the American established doctrine of non-involvement in other countries matters. Their American established democracy is shining example of what the US Government says it wants to establish in Iraq, a government that represents the will of the people...not the will of George Bush. The German stance of non-involvement is MADE IN USA.

    So in conclusion Mr DeltaDude8. Get your head out of your ass and find the truth instead of looking for a Fox News opinion to be feed to you.

    [Edited 2005-07-09 21:46:42]

    [Edited 2005-07-09 22:08:05]
    "...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
     
    nyskymasters
    Posts: 143
    Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:41 pm

    RE: Air France Jet Turned Back By US CDG-ORD

    Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:29 am

    Very interesting reading here. Just one point to make..

    IIRC, the US gov't does not have one comprehensive "Do Not Fly List." They actually have a couple. Thus the reason there has been finger pointing going on between the US airlines and the DHS. The interesting point to make is the the DHS says that they cannot give the airlines all the information due to it being a matter of "national security." This is why with all the checking that the airlines do before flight there are still diversions. The final manifest is required to be sent to the US gov't something like fifteen minutes (or so) after departure so that all the names can be checked.

    Remember that the DHS or TSA is supposed to take over all the duties of checking passenger names in the near future since the airlines are doing a "poor job." As I see it, you can't do a good job if you aren't given the proper tools, or data in this case.

    Somebody said that the model needs to be fixed. I couldn't agree more. I hope I am wrong but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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