hawker
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Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:16 am

The local business show ran a story this morning on the potential for a Singapore Qantas merger.

http://businesssunday.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=54858

Sounds to me like Singapore would like the benefits of cost sharing but not to be tied down by a formal union. Bit like living together vs marriage!

However what was interesting in the visuals were the pictures of the Singapore girls being made up with blue eye shadow for that exotic oriental look. It was also mentioned they are only on 5 year contracts with no option for an extension.

This is in contrast to Australia with age discrimination legislation, where older ex Ansett cabin crew recently went to the Equal Opportunity Commission claiming age discrimination and demanding jobs with Virgin Blue. That story here. Always thought Ansett staff seemed to feel the world owed them a job.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1364245.htm

Anyway the purpose of this post is to ask a general question - where airlines have no legislative impediments, do they invariably go for young attractive cabin crew or does experience still count? Does it depend on the particular culture?

Presumably if cabin crew are there primarily for safety reasons, younger fit women would be better able to assist in any evacuation. My own experience has been that older cabin crew often seem to be more "burnt out". Which is not surprising in view of the thankless job they have.
 
ikramerica
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Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting Hawker (Thread starter):
Presumably if cabin crew are there primarily for safety reasons, younger fit women would be better able to assist in any evacuation. My own experience has been that older cabin crew often seem to be more "burnt out". Which is not surprising in view of the thankless job they have

All valid points, but unfortunately, the law clearly states that no matter how unfit, unhappy, unresponsive, and uncooperative you are, you can't be fired for being old. And the union makes you pay more for these workers to boot!
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HKGKaiTak
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Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:46 am

Whilst I have no idea about labour laws of various countries I have noticed that the Asian carriers tend to have far younger and "sexier" F/As (and not just the women either). Makes me wonder what happens to these guys and gals after they turn 30 or 35.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
but unfortunately, the law clearly states that no matter how unfit, unhappy, unresponsive, and uncooperative you are, you can't be fired for being old. And the union makes you pay more for these workers to boot!

Well, this is why businesses put employees on contract, so they can just not renew it when it comes to the time.

Still, I would've thought F/As with more experience are probably better in an emergency than a young, inexperienced crew, no matter how well trained they may be.
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ikramerica
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Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 2):
Well, this is why businesses put employees on contract, so they can just not renew it when it comes to the time.

If a company in the US were to hire people on 5 year contracts and only hire those 18-25, and not resign anyone over 30 or hire anyone new under 30, despite the contracts "protecting" them, they would be sued and fined.

And the unions wouldn't allow it either.

I've always proposed that airlines not give anything but a cost of living raise to F/As after the first 3 years. If you want to stay beyond that, or seek a promotion, that's fine. It would be a simple way to keep a younger F/A base without discriminating in any way. But nobody can tell me that a 15 year F/A does a better job than a 3 year veteran, so why should they be paid more unless they take on more responsibility? Why should they be rewarded with the best routes only to treat their pax with tired disdain? Because they have decided to make a career out of a "see the world" job?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
QANTASforever
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Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:12 pm

Personally - barring a few exceptions, I much prefer the old battle-axes to the pretty young things. Maybe I feel closer to the "golden era" of travel, or maybe it just makes for better conversation - I don't know.

QFF
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nycflyer
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:05 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
All valid points, but unfortunately, the law clearly states that no matter how unfit, unhappy, unresponsive, and uncooperative you are, you can't be fired for being old. And the union makes you pay more for these workers to boot!

True. It annoys me that why can't unions/lawyers/etc. understand that in some professions, age or looks DO matter. People DO enjoy having attractive f/a's, it's that simple. But alas, that frame of mind is not "enlightened."

This is a bit off topic, I apologize: but how has Hooters been able to legally maintain its, uh, discriminatory hiring practices. And believe me, in the case of Hooters, I'm all for discrimination!

Maybe the airlines could take advantage of whatever loophole Hooters uses.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:22 pm

Its simple...if anybody is worried it is simply that the old battleaxes will be shown up!

The singapore girls do an absolutely GREAT job, and if anybody suggest otherwise, I would question if they are perhaps, either really racist, or simply attempting to misuse government legislation to extort unreasonable conditions (aka..the old battleaxes get overpaid forever and unreasonable seniority regulations) out of their employers...in other words...line their own pockets.

Im sure QF management wouldn't mind having those SIA girls floating through their cabins in their uniform at their costs! Most of them are fluent in several languages, have a first class education from a very demanding first world system (in singapore) and do give very good service!

A few weeks back I shouted myself a little shopping trip to Singapore for my birthday SIA of course, and I must say...I was absolutely delighted that these young lasses thought to bring me some bubbly from F-class and wished me happy birthday!!!!! Now...how's that for service!!!
 
malaysia
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:10 pm

the SQ girls are very stuck-up and rude to me especially when I non-rev

I was once not given a meal, since they ran out, but gladly the male steward noticed I had no meal, and he asked why, I said they ran out, he said that was not true, so he gave me 2 crew meals woohoo and a SQ girl whined about it and complained to him, and he brushed her off. I then turned my head away from them once I deplaned.

also MH girls, or Id say ladies glady exchange email addresses with me
woohoo. very open minded and accepting me for who I am.

About QF? oh yeah they were very nice and sure the Purser and a few
were middle age, but they were very acceptable, but I would have to say
that the Aussie staff was very sweet and kind compared to the Oriental F/A that they had on the flight also (Thai/HK/SIN?) not sure it was BKK-LHR.
So Id say QF is excellent as long as its a pure Aussie F/A.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Hawker (Thread starter):

Presumably if cabin crew are there primarily for safety reasons, younger fit women would be better able to assist in any evacuation. My own experience has been that older cabin crew often seem to be more "burnt out". Which is not surprising in view of the thankless job they have.

Hawker, I flew with QF and DJ in June, 2005. I totally disagree. Seems as if the DJ "girls" and "boys" (=so named from the DJ purser) fear that their finger nails get damaged when they have to work in the galley. Also the announcements of the DJ crew is less professional as the announcements from competitor. When a purser short before landing says "Sorry, I dont know where we will fly too, it's still a little early for me" - that sounds very unprofessional. Isn't it take off and landing when F/A's have to be very concentrated?
QF staff isn't that pretty as the DJ's are, but when I want to see hot girls, I go to a beach or into a night club.

Why banning older staff? I feel much safer with professional people and my DJ experience tells me, that the youngsters don't even know what planes they are flying with.
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Lufthansa747
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:31 am

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 7):
the SQ girls are very stuck-up and rude to me especially when I non-rev

I feel that every time in Y as a paying pax. In F I feel they aren't rude, but very formal and robotic.

Give me TG or CX any day over SQ crew.
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ikramerica
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 5):
This is a bit off topic, I apologize: but how has Hooters been able to legally maintain its, uh, discriminatory hiring practices. And believe me, in the case of Hooters, I'm all for discrimination!

Nope, they don't have younger F/As, other than being a charter airline with less pay.

The Hooters girls aren't F/As. They are extra crew and are taken directly from Hooters stores around the route structure. Since few 50 year old hags want to wear a tight outfit and serve wings to abusive men all day, you tend to get younger employees in that position.

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 8):
fear that their finger nails get damaged when they have to work in the galley.

No more unprofessional than ignoring pax and reading magazines while talking loudly in the jumpseats, or throwing snack baskets at you while holding a conversation with the other F/A while serving, or rudely "guilting" pax who are still boarding into sitting down, even though they aren't even at their seat, since "we can't close the door until you do." As if it is the pax fault the plane arrived late, is boarding late and behind schedule.

As long as you hire the right younger people, age 23-28 to start, with a positive attitude, you won't get the my nails hurt and catty attitude. And without a union, you can have a 1 year probation period where you can be more easily fired for bad/surly performance. Similar to how the rest of the world works.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
And without a union, you can have a 1 year probation period where you can be more easily fired for bad/surly performance. Similar to how the rest of the world works.

Aaaah, ok, so the unions are guilty when flight attendents are bad. Very easy - but wrong.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 11):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
And without a union, you can have a 1 year probation period where you can be more easily fired for bad/surly performance. Similar to how the rest of the world works.

Aaaah, ok, so the unions are guilty when flight attendents are bad. Very easy - but wrong.

The union in itself is not wrong. But the result of overprotecting employees is often crappy work. If you can't fire an F/A for not performing (being unpleasant, lazy and rude) the F/As have little incentive to perform well.

At airlines where F/As are measured for customer service (BA, QF, SQ among others) attitude and service tend to be much better.

Don't get me wrong. Employees need to be protected from unfair termination. But if the employee is not upholding his/her end of the bargain by doing a good job, protecting that employee is simply a bad idea. In the end, the union does all it's members a disfavor and pax flee to other carriers.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
nycflyer
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 5):
This is a bit off topic, I apologize: but how has Hooters been able to legally maintain its, uh, discriminatory hiring practices. And believe me, in the case of Hooters, I'm all for discrimination!

Nope, they don't have younger F/As, other than being a charter airline with less pay.

The Hooters girls aren't F/As. They are extra crew and are taken directly from Hooters stores around the route structure. Since few 50 year old hags want to wear a tight outfit and serve wings to abusive men all day, you tend to get younger employees in that position.

Dude, I was talking about Hooters the restaurant, not Hooters Air!

My question is what legal loophole does Hooters the restaurant use to get away with hiring only young, hot women? (obviously the job applicants are self-selecting....but the occasional hag must apply now and then)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 13):

My question is what legal loophole does Hooters the restaurant use to get away with hiring only young, hot women? (obviously the job applicants are self-selecting....but the occasional hag must apply now and then)

They have had some problems with this. As in males applying. But I don't think anyone feels like challenging the status quo much.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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N328KF
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:44 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 2):
Whilst I have no idea about labour laws of various countries I have noticed that the Asian carriers tend to have far younger and "sexier" F/As (and not just the women either). Makes me wonder what happens to these guys and gals after they turn 30 or 35.

I have met one ex-SQ FA. She is an Indian born in Malaysia, and after her stint for SQ, moved to CHI. She is now a nursing student. Not sure if that's typical—where the SQ term is considered a stepping stone to something more.

[Edited 2005-07-11 20:45:44]
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airnewzealand
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:44 am

Good Morning,

Now before anyone goes off about "older" Flight attendants lets call them mature flight attendants, let me tell you something...


As a Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendant, I was the youngest flight attendant they have ever hired in the division.
We at Qantas must go thru Emergency procedures every 6 months, thus having an older flight attendant who has gone thru the process so many times is much more likely to know their stuff than "younger" more "prettier" flight attendants.

No disrespect to anyone, but studying the SQ crash in TPE is a perfect example of what "younger" flight attendants would be like in an emergency or the Garuda Indonesia crash. There is a perfect photo showing the crew standing away from the aircraft watching the pax evacuate the plane themselves.

Sure- their are some bad apples out their who are more mature, but let me tell you, their are also the young crew who think everyone owes them a thing or two.

I have only been flying a year and a bit, and am still constantly learning new things to do with service, and who by??? let me see.... The mature crew.

Qantas is a great airline, and we do offer a great service, if you want to put it this way, we are a very mature airline (which is changing), professional and very Australasian....
Sometimes that doesnt mix well with other people, but to the majority it does.

Most people seem to think that we as crew only report to our onboard service managers, but this is purely incorrect. The onbaord experience streams from managers who we, as crew report to.

I know ive gone abit of topic, but please before you judge the more mature crew, take a second look, talk to them, they most probably have the best personalities in the sky, and let me tell you, they have some of the best humour money cant buy and can get that cabin turned around in a matter of seconds.

Cheers
AirNewZealand
 
Tornado82
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:09 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):

They have had some problems with this. As in males applying. But I don't think anyone feels like challenging the status quo much.

"Ugly hags" wouldn't make many tips... and when your wage is $2.83 (I believe that's the min now for gratuity positions still??) + tips, and you're not making tips, you don't want the job. You'll go serve tables somewhere where you can dress a bit more conservative for your age. It's a bit crude, but a fact of life.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 8):
When a purser short before landing says "Sorry, I dont know where we will fly too, it's still a little early for me" - that sounds very unprofessional.

I've heard this many a times on Monday morning and Friday afternoon DJ flights - if you look at the F/A's this is usually said in good humour. If nothing else DJ does train its F/A's to lighten up and cracks some good jokes esp when most of the pax are still asleep on the 0630 departure on Monday or have had a stressful week at work for the 1730 departure on Friday.

Some of these jokes are a bit tired if you've flown them a couple of times though.

The best one I've heard is actually on a WS flight YHZ-YUL. The flight continued on to YVR and upon landing at Montreal, the F/A cheerfully announced that "any pax continuing onto Vancouver will enjoy lovely Quebec hospitality if they spend too long browsing the shops here and their luggage flown onto Vancouver, never to be seen again" - something to that description. Of course, it was said with a laugh . . . definitely cheered up all those still with a 4-hour night time flight still ahead of them!

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 8):
I feel much safer with professional people and my DJ experience tells me, that the youngsters don't even know what planes they are flying with.

Ah don't worry mate. I'm sure they know which plane they're flying with - it's always a 737!!!
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Meerkat
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:41 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
Since few 50 year old hags want to wear a tight outfit and serve wings to abusive men all day, you tend to get younger employees in that position.

There are people that would pay extra for that privilege!  Wink
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 16):
know ive gone abit of topic, but please before you judge the more mature crew, take a second look, talk to them, they most probably have the best personalities in the sky, and let me tell you, they have some of the best humour money cant buy and can get that cabin turned around in a matter of seconds.

Honestly I don't care how old the F/As are, as long as they provide good service. But I wonder how very overweight F/As (of all ages) would cope in an emergency. Age limits are silly, but (moderate) fitness requirements are not IMHO.
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airnewzealand
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:14 pm

And let me tell you they are all very fit... Our Emergency Procedures ensure that...

Some people are just big boned. Its not beauty Mate, were not their for people to perve at, and if you seriously need to have a god looking flight attendant you have some serious issues, are you guys that desperate!!!!????


Cheers
AirNewZealand
 
orlando666
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:35 pm

remember the tragic SQ-Taipei crash? The same "young inexperienced pretty" crew were still cutting pax out of the firery wreckage even after the fire-crew arrived. 3 of them had to be relieved physically by fire-crew.

Forget "looks" which is "marketing"... IF thats in combination with the thorough extensive training (SQ crew get), why not? But I agree if its "looks only" thats not good for the passenger at the expense of safety.
 
jeffrysky
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:56 pm

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 16):
No disrespect to anyone, but studying the SQ crash in TPE is a perfect example of what "younger" flight attendants would be like in an emergency or the Garuda Indonesia crash. There is a perfect photo showing the crew standing away from the aircraft watching the pax evacuate the plane themselves.

Prove this point , in black and white. Your airline policy of cabin recruitment is obviously different from that of SQ's but I do not appreciate your attempt to justify the "superiority" of your airline's policy by making wild insinuations. Mind you that a good number of SQ FAs died in that crash , and the chief stewardess who originally managed to survive the impact , died when she went back into the wreckage to save her pax and crew. I do not think it's sensitive at all to state such controversial issues as if there are hard facts , in light of this disaster.

Likewise, are you able to prove to me that mature cabin crew are able to assist you better in a disaster ? What's with this cardboad flimsy assumption that assumes a matronly , "mature" FA , who treats me as I am invisible during flight , would treat me any better during a disaster ?

Putting that phrase "No disrespect to anyone" in front of your post does not grant you some unannounced freedom to make irresponsible statements like that.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:01 pm

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 21):
And let me tell you they are all very fit... Our Emergency Procedures ensure that...

Some people are just big boned. Its not beauty Mate, were not their for people to perve at, and if you seriously need to have a god looking flight attendant you have some serious issues, are you guys that desperate!!!!????

The "big boned" argument has always been pure baloney IMHO. Some people are just fat (not the same as "large"). Now, I didn't say I cared if they were fat, I said I cared if they were fit. I don't care if they weigh 400 lbas long as they don't bump the seats on their way past and, more importantly, can perform all their duties in an emergency. As for the latter, I seriously doubt some F/As I have seen would manage.

As I said, I'm not calling for superathletes. Just reasonably fit people. Otherwise the whole "primarily here for your safety" thing becomes so much BS.


AirNewZealand, pretty girls are always nice to look at. But that's not a good enough reason for an airline to insist on flight attendants being pretty. So of course some of us enjoy it when the F/As are all pretty (duh...) but it should not be a prerequisite for the job. In the end, I care much more if the F/A is service minded and pleasant than if she is a knockout.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
EK773
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:02 pm

Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 16):



Quoting AirNewZealand (Reply 16):
No disrespect to anyone, but studying the SQ crash in TPE is a perfect example of what "younger" flight attendants would be like in an emergency or the Garuda Indonesia crash. There is a perfect photo showing the crew standing away from the aircraft watching the pax evacuate the plane themselves.

Sorry AirNewZealand but i think you will find that you are wrong with this point. For starters the SQ crash happened late at night in a rain storm so i doubt you will be able to get a clear picture of crew huddled together in this situation anyway. JeffrySkY is true to point out that crew actually lost their lives to go back into the wreckage to assist people.

From memory though, i do seem to recall seeing a picture of Garuda crew after their incident in (i believe) Nagoya. Although this is only one photo, so its not fair to assume and make all of your judgements based on this. We were not there to see the bigger picture and of exactly what is happening.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:53 pm

Well said JeffrySKY

What is the real issue here? Could it be that QF flight attendents are threatened by the fact that SQ girls can do a really good job, for a competitive price and the culture of the organisation is set up so SQ girls sign up only expecting one or two terms flying?

Could the real issue be, that a lot of them (the QF fa's) have very very good conditions and hang onto them forever, and they just don't want to loose that? I think that is the more likely story as to why you hear this fiction, that that airlines with less experienced FA's are not as safe. Come on...you guys aren't pilots!!!!!

It also explains why even young ppl at airlines such as QF will make this arguement...because they want to enjoy the gravy train for the next 40 years..... Pork barrelling!

To Suggest otherwise, is to suggest Airlines like Jetblue, Singapore Air, Cathay Pacific, and Virgin Atlantic aren't safe.... and nobody really believes that do they. (oh...what about a 60 year old may suffer a heart attack from the shock of a crash...maybe that's "not safe" too)

Come on guys...we can see through your arguement... it's purely about money, so lets not pretend otherwise.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:05 pm

Also comparing SIA to Garuada is like comparing BA to the former Nigeria Airways, or worse yet.

Be careful guys... to suggest the SIA girls aren't capable almost has a hidden Racist premise inside that arguement. If anything, the Singaporean culture is probably better suited to safety due to the fact that it emphises getting everything perfect...again and again...just look at the way Singaporean Chinese students study compared to western students. If anything...their culture is probably more thorough in this regard than the west....

But as i said before...this is just about money and perks. Isn't it funny how you hear this arguement the most from Ageing male F/A's? And, when it is not them, it is often the ones termed "the battleaxes"..... How many pilots do you hear making such an arguement? They're the ones really charged with saftey after all...and it is there ship and thus their responsibility to ensure.

Also a little discloser.... Perving at the singapore girls does nothing for me (not that way inclinded and the sia boys really do nothing for me).... but I pick them still because the service is just so much better.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:05 am

airnz, i agree that some of the younger crew are lacking knowledge and not as experienced compared to the older crew. look at your own reply on this thread for example. you actually think that your airline is more superior than singapore airlines? that is bloody hilarious, mate!

you are disrespecting my fellow singapore airlines cabin crew that had lost their lives saving pax that fateful night ... only a silly young kid like you would have the audacity to make such insensitive and utterly dumb comment. i have a feeling that your older and more superior crew at your airlines would not make such horrible remarks about fellow human beings losing their lives. so yes, younger crew such as yourself can be totally clueless and lacking maturity ... which is very unfortunate.

regards,
singapore girl.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
orlando666
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:06 pm

dear sq-girl,

my regards to you all and sincerest respect and admiration for the taipei disaster crew. unfortunately todays world means "looks" for marketing, and people regard "pretty" exterior, ignoring the training, intelligence and selection processes behind the face.

best regards, orlando banderas.
 
tbear815
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:48 pm

If people, regardless of age, wish to become F/A's, more power to them. With regard to more "mature" F/A's, they should set a good example for the "newbies." Maybe sometimes their service seems surly, but it more likely boredom with the routine of flights today (AND the calibre of passenger). They know what a true passenger service is; they just don't have the Corporate backing they had in past years. It's no longer about Passenger Service, it's all bean counting. Flying used to be glamorous to both the crew and the passenger. Today, cost factors are such that revenues are put in Golden Parachutes and Line Pensions are lost. This just doesn't work out logically.

There is no excuse for surly service. I'm not making excuses for anyone. It's just that to provide front line employees with an energizing atmosphere, the MBAs and bean counters are looking merely at figures. They have lost the true essence of passenger services. So what, 100 people out of 9,000 had a horrendous trip. Buy them off and they're happy. If a flight goes out under compliment, give the F/A's a little something in the paycheck. This does not equal the passenger experience of an overworked crew. I'm not a Union man, but have flown as a non-Union company supervisor. I've seen all this first hand. The perks are great - that's why many people stay as long as they do. So, I guess rank and file and management should look at the public's thoughts and perception.

I was always told "that when a fish starts to rot, it starts at the head." Maybe my parents and grandparents were right....

Tbear (aka Rod)
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:19 pm

I really don't think this is an issue about age-SQ girls tend to be younger because the airline (officially) has a policy regarding the physical attractiveness of their cabin staff-it is an important (and not to politically correct) part of the airline's image, and they have a right to hire who they want, in my opinion. Both airlines have cabin crew who are adequetely trained and it is simply wrong to assert that because of the taipei crash, SQ staff are any less capable in terms of safety procedures, etc. Let me tell you...Singaporeans follow rules better than any other nationality.
What differs (considerably)between the 2 carriers is service culture. Despite all the carrying on, especially from the Americans, Singapore airlines has the most consistently delivered excellent inflight service in ALL classes, throughout it's network, over time. SQ staff will go the extra mile to please their passengers and although I fly Qantas most of the the time because of my Qantas club membership, I will readily admit that whenever I fly SQ after a few Qantas flights, the difference IS consistently there.
The recent improvements at Qantas that has resulted in Qantas scoring an unprecedented 2nd best ranking airline overall in SKYTRAX has not occured, in my opinion, as a result of a change in their service culture, but rather, of greatly improved staff morale in the setting of a very well run airline.
I love both Qantas and SQ, they are my 2 favourite carriers in the world, but they are incredibly different-a merger will not work between these 2 airlines. BA is much more like QF, just as CX is much more like SQ.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:35 pm

ok, ok,

I apologise for what i have said, and i didnot mean ANY disrespect to any of the crew facing that situation!!! God forbid anyone having to go thru this.

I have never said that my airlines "policy" is superior to that of SQ. In No way do i mean that.

But with time COMES experience, and constantly renewing your crew, just brings that constant break in experience. It is to my knowledge, that crew at SQ are not allowed to progress within the cabin until they have been in the airline for at least 5 years.
Now most of the crew on that fateful night left the aircraft, but this is not part of your drills.
I have seen your drills in an emergency and it states that until the aircraft is clear you then may leave the aircraft.
Now those women and men clearly didnot complete their drills before leaving the aircraft, hence, time lost.

Their is no doubt SQ have a great record of Service, but somethings to do with Safety are alot to be desired.

Also the picture, yes was of GA, and no i never compared the two airlines.

Cheers
 
jeffrysky
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:27 pm

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 32):
Now most of the crew on that fateful night left the aircraft, but this is not part of your drills.



Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 32):
but somethings to do with Safety are alot to be desired.

Don't you think that it is too presumptious of you to pass a judgement of SIA's safety records just because of some impression you had , that most of the young and inexperienced crew members were fleeing from the aircraft that fateful night ? In the first place, were you at the scene ? If not, how can you make such a judgement on mere hearsay ?

Let me remind you again that a good number of SQ FAs DIED in the crash. The LSS Irene Ang Miau Lee ran back into the burning aircraft to save her passengers and crew ; a young 18-yr-old inflight stewardess Farzhana suffered multiple burns while pulling passengers out of the wreckage. Do you know that she is up to this very day , scarred and all swollen up from steroid therapy for her skin grafts at a young age of just 23 ? How do you think she would feel if she read a post like yours ?

I am not trying to boast how brave these SQ crew are , because I was not at the scene. However, I feel that in light of the tragedy, it is highly insensitive of you to start passing judgemental remarks when you probably have no idea what exactly happened at the scene ?

Quoting Airnewzealand (Reply 32):
I apologise for what i have said, and i didnot mean ANY disrespect to any of the crew facing that situation!!! God forbid anyone having to go thru this.

What is the use of typing all this fluff when you don't even mean a single word you say ? You are posting in an international forum ; THINK before you speak. I would gladly appreciate that. However, you have proven to me that hypocrisy and tactlessness know no limits in some people.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:56 pm

Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 23):
the chief stewardess who originally managed to survive the impact , died when she went back into the wreckage to save her pax and crew.

With all due respect, that statement alone highlights the shortfalls in what happened that night. Firstly, a flight attendant does not leave an aircraft until all pax are off, secondly, under NO circumstances does one go back onto an aircraft. Most surely this was indeed an incredibly courageous act which deserves accolade; but also one which brings into question the training.

Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 23):
What's with this cardboad flimsy assumption that assumes a matronly , "mature" FA , who treats me as I am invisible during flight , would treat me any better during a disaster ?

Perhaps the 'matronly mature FA' is primarily concerned about your safety above nothing else; and views their job as such. Safety isn't just about what to do in a disaster (although I have upmost confidence in QF crew if that happened), it's also about securing the cabin, monitoring pax etc; and I'm yet to see an airline be so stringent in this regard as QF.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 27):
How many pilots do you hear making such an arguement? They're the ones really charged with saftey after all...and it is there ship and thus their responsibility to ensure.

Tell me Lufthansa, who secures a cabin for takeoff and landing? Who does all the pre-flight security checks? Who is in charge of the management and application of all medical equipment on board? Who actually carries out an evacuation?? Who is the first line of defence against hijackers??
One day, people will realise that flight attendants actually do serve a purpose other than to look pretty, serve drinks and take crap from the likes of gits like you.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 26):
It also explains why even young ppl at airlines such as QF will make this arguement...because they want to enjoy the gravy train for the next 40 years..... Pork barrelling!

So just how many young people at QF do you know?? I doubt you've ever even spent the time to speak to one; otherwise you'd know that the working conditions are nothing like what some perceive it to be. Gravy train??? What f#*@king train????
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:02 pm

Quoting JeffrySkY (Reply 33):
What is the use of typing all this fluff when you don't even mean a single word you say ? You are posting in an international forum ; THINK before you speak. I would gladly appreciate that. However, you have proven to me that hypocrisy and tactlessness know no limits in some people.

And proven to me that there are still many people who cannot contribute to a particular debate, nor form an argument without hiding behind "sensitivites". AirNewZealand was merely commenting on the TPE crash in reference to the selection and training at SQ compared to QF. Yet you jump on him; he meant no disrespect.
But of course I should remember the unspoken rules of this forum; QF is fair game, but nobody should EVERY cast poorly onto the blessed SQ.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:25 pm

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 35):
But of course I should remember the unspoken rules of this forum; QF is fair game, but nobody should EVERY cast poorly onto the blessed SQ.

Amen to all your posts in this thread, VHXLR8!

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
jeffrysky
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 35):
QF is fair game, but nobody should EVERY cast poorly onto the blessed SQ.

Another QF FA to the defense ? Spare me the fluff.

I believe that you have missed the whole point of the ENTIRE thread. No one is trying to glorify the image of SQ here ; I am not trying to claim that the FAs are the bravest and the most conscientious about safety. The point is that people DIED in this crash ; apparently, it is not obvious to you that one doesn't cast judgmental remarks about events which you have completely no idea about. What do you know about the crash ? What do you know about the events that night ? Who are you to comment about the actions of the late LSS who ran back in ?

Throughout my posts, I have never once commented about your airline or whatsoever policies your staff follows. It is of none of my concern, because I am not here to prove who's better and who's worse. I am just here to point out that we should follow BASIC rules of sensitivity and tact , despite this being a free forum.

Does freedom of speech = irresponsibility of speech ? I believe it is so in that world of yours.

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 34):
and I'm yet to see an airline be so stringent in this regard as QF.

I am not surprised, because from the irresponsible statements you make, your view of the world is probably confined to the interior of a QF B747-400.
 
jaysit
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:56 pm

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 34):
With all due respect, that statement alone highlights the shortfalls in what happened that night. Firstly, a flight attendant does not leave an aircraft until all pax are off, secondly, under NO circumstances does one go back onto an aircraft. Most surely this was indeed an incredibly courageous act which deserves accolade; but also one which brings into question the training.

Gimme a break.
The aircraft broke into 3 large separate flaming chunks. This FA was in the forward section in which the upper cabin collapsed onto the main deck. Its not like she slid off of a chute before other passengers. She, like a lot of other passengers, was thrown clear of the wreckage, but went back in to rescue others. That to me seems like going beyond the call of duty.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:03 am

VHXLR8,

All you did is just prove the point so many here were trying to make. That is, SQ girls do a very good job, and are very proficient, and do so for a lot less money, and the passengers are a lot happier.

I know that must be a big threat to some of you, but it is a fact of life, and if you lot want to be competitive you better start accepting that.

Now...you got personal so I'll answer your questions. Firstly I used to date a QF FA so sharing the same bed several times a week lets me know their movements pretty damn well....and let me tell you...He was paid over $75 000 pa for about 25 hrs flight time per week. Now...sorry but that is just too much. He had the shits if he couldn't buy a new BMW every few years..and was being paid more than a dentist was in his first year!!!!!!

All for what...a 6 week course..and previous jobs working in 5 star hotels.
Give me a fricken break! That's a gravy train. And it's overpaid.

(to compare...I did 20 years of schooling including 8 at university, had to live on $9000 or less for each of those years, wash dishes and scrub pots, wait on tables, clean toilets(over 100 a day sometimes) and only sleep 4 hrs a night many many times to get it all done, and now..i still don't earn that much unconditionally.... most of my pay comes after a project "proves" itself and starts making a decent profit... and that...that gives the right to demand to fly business class and stay in decent hotels!!!!!)

As for Landing and saftey checks.... well switching the doors to "armed", and checking seats are in the upright position, tray tables stowed, overhead bins secured, the galley is secured and seat belts fastened hardly compares to say.... Engine fire or flame out in hail, over the south pacific nearest diversion airport 3000km....

What did those pilots have to do to get in that position? 10-15 years of training, a hundred thousand dollars debt, they probably hold a university degree and had to work in some shithole for years on no money......vs a 6 week training course..... Yes guys...its so fricken hard isn't it. Life is just soooo tough.... having to put up with passengers who expect to be served!!!!
And even worse...aren't happy when they're ignored!!!! They even have the gall to complain about it!!! or compare to another company.

The point here is the SQ girls remain humble. Interestingly, most of them think they get a good deal at the $45 000 or so they each get per year. They also learn how medical equipment works, how to deal with drunk unruly passengers, possible terrorist threats, and how to arm the doors of the 747-400. But they don't have an inflated sense of their own self importance.... perhaps thats because they're not paid more than first year dentists.

Sorry VHXLR8, but all your reaction did was prove the point of the majority here.... that those SQ staff were both very capable and went beyond the call of duty. Going back into the aircraft....yes...it may explode (not like it was ditched at sea remember so there is now drowning risk) but...it was raining heavily..and the aircraft was broken into 3 sections... and ppl were in OTHER sections...and those brave girls risked and gave their own lives to help ppl still alive. Are you telling me that your lot would have just sat on the tarmac at TPE and let them die?.... because you'd finished what your training and the manual told you to do?..... come on... there is no weight in that theory at all....

Sorry but I have nothing but admiration for those very capable SQ girls...and it is just sour grapes from those who don't like it.... give me REAL reasons and examples of how they're not capable and I may listen to you.
 
jaysit
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 34):
One day, people will realise that flight attendants actually do serve a purpose other than to look pretty, serve drinks and take crap from the likes of gits like you.

They do.

But the ones who also look pretty, serve drinks and treat passengers like guests rather than cattle get my business.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:50 am

As an HR professional, I can tell you that studies and statistics tell us that the average company sees maximum benefit from an employee with 7 years tenure, without regard to age prior to 50 years old. Before that, they are still proving themselves and after that time, there is a decline in employee performance vs return on investment.

I believe such anti age descrimination laws are not only needed, but proven and valid. Experience and maturity are great things to have in your workforce. But overall job performance and customer service must still be the benchmark against which they are evaluated. If they fail to meet company standards, regardless of age, then corrective action must be taken.

Companies which therefore limit themselves by having a 5 year limit on length of employment may sometimes be missing out on the best years an employee has to offer.
One Nation Under God
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:13 am

Dayflyer

I don't think SIA miss your point. What they usually do is offer 5 years to start with, and, the staff that they deem as good, get offered another 5 years and even promotion. The whole idea isn't to get rid of them after 5 years, but rather, stop them staying for 30, and possibly getting stale.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 13):

My question is what legal loophole does Hooters the restaurant use to get away with hiring only young, hot women? (obviously the job applicants are self-selecting....but the occasional hag must apply now and then)

Quite a few hags and men apply.

And they don't use a loophole.

Hooter's was sued for discrimination. The judge ruled in favor of Hooter's, because it is a marketing strategy and gimmick provided by Hooters. Southwest was sued for a similar case back in the 1970s/1980s. Southwest, however, lost because the judge decided the pretty flight attendants was not a major marketing technique or a gimmick provided by Southwest. Prior to this lawsuit, the first thing evaluated on applicants were their knees.

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 34):
Tell me Lufthansa, who secures a cabin for takeoff and landing? Who does all the pre-flight security checks? Who is in charge of the management and application of all medical equipment on board? Who actually carries out an evacuation?? Who is the first line of defence against hijackers??
One day, people will realise that flight attendants actually do serve a purpose other than to look pretty, serve drinks and take crap from the likes of gits like you.

Flight attendants do have a huge role in safety. Many people owe their lives to flight attendants who calmly and professionally evacuated the cabin. Look at the flight attendants on that TWA L-1011 flight in L.A. (I think it was 847). They mangaged to evacuate an almost full L-1011 in 90 seconds, with several exits blocked and with 85% of the passengers non-English speaking.

That being said, pilots play a far more important role in safety than flight attendants. Pilots are 80% safety, 20% service, flight attendants are 20% safety, 80% service. I might get flammed for this, but think about it. How many evacuations or similar situations did a 20 year retiree perform? Maybe one evacuation, a half a dozen medical emergencies, and one or two depressurizations.

AAndrew
 
c680
Posts: 428
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 43):
Pilots are 80% safety, 20% service, flight attendants are 20% safety, 80% service. I might get flammed for this...

I could not agree with you more. Unfortunately; I think that the folks who work aft of cockpit door for USA carriers have taken on a new attitude. They see their role as safety first and service second. During an emergency, that's good, but for the other 99.9999% of the time it just annoys the customer.

Too many FAs see the customer as the enemy.

Go ahead and flame me too. I'm no longer your customer. I used to be one of the high margin people (F class over 250,000 miles a year) but no more. Now I fly private. Its less expensive, and I get to keep my shoes on.

Outside the USA I still fly commercial - because quality international carriers (SQ, NZ, CX to name a few) still believe in service. And yes, the appearance, and age, of the Cabin Crew matter. Maybe that's not politically correct to say, but I vote with my $$$, and so do quite a few other people.

The folks at the pointy end of the plane are much more likely to save my butt than the folks manning the drink cart.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
aa757first
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 44):
And yes, the appearance, and age, of the Cabin Crew matter. Maybe that's not politically correct to say, but I vote with my $$$, and so do quite a few other people.

I agree for you except for this part.

Should a flight attendants hair be neatly groomed, nails manicured, shoes polished, make-up applied, uniform pressed, body clean and wearing perfume? Yes. However, I don't care if they are 19 or 59 if they perform the above mentioned things.

Nurses can be old, secretaries can be ugly and sales reps can be slightly overweight. Why can't flight attendants be?

AAndrew
 
squared
Posts: 352
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 45):
Yes. However, I don't care if they are 19 or 59 if they perform the above mentioned things.

Nurses can be old, secretaries can be ugly and sales reps can be slightly overweight. Why can't flight attendants be?

True. But no other airline on this planet relies so much on the imagery of its flight attendants. Arguably, SQ's greatest intanigible asset is the image of a beautiful, young, graceful and service-oriented Singapore Girl. This has been one of the cornerstones of SQ's success. SQ will not abandon an image that has worked so well for them.

SQuared
 
GoAllegheny
Posts: 310
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RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:50 am

Three points. First, it is against the law to discriminate on the basis of age in the United States. As much as I might like to have an entire flight full of nubile young girls as Flight Attendants, I value protection against age discrimination much more. And besides, if you really gotta oogle over young girls for the entire flight, you've got problems.

Second, airlines in the US hire F/As primarily for safety reasons. If they didn't have to have them, they wouldn't. That's why some airlines remove a few seats to reduce the number of F/As required on each flight. You can certainly have a debate about how necessary they are - considering the very few number of crashes and other incidents involving the need for flight attendants, I really wonder if they are cost-effective. Would be fairly easy to calculate the cost-benefit.

Third, the judge ruled in the Hooters case that the Hooters Girls were an integral part of the brand identity, and therefore the anti-discrimination laws didn't apply.

In 20 or 30 years, some of the youngsters on this forum may appreciate the protection against age discrimination. All those who think it's OK to be fired from any job simply because you are over 30, raise your hands.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:15 pm

And let me tell you they are all very fit... Our Emergency Procedures ensure that...

And SQ's don't?

SQ gals are pretty, arrogant, rude (hell they even beat each other up in front of me on approach in SYD)... BUT... they ARE trained...

Does age mean they know how to handle emergencies better? NOT ALWAYS! How many crashes have an average 50 year old UA F/A been through?

Does repetitive training mean you're more proficient in handling emergency... It's SUPPOSED TO! BUT... can you train people for every particular crash scenario? No...

Does age mean more experience? Not always! One airline here passed a senior F/A who has worked with SQ, GA, and EK (this woman decided to move back to Indonesia to raise her family)... Despite the impressive training background, the airline fired her (first in her career) because although she went through her drills in flying colours, she can't handle real situations (even modest ones)... This woman can't calm down a pax when the flight was severely delayed and all the alternates had been closed due to weather, or when her aircraft had to be diverted due to engine problems... and all sorts...

She passed through the net all these years and this time someone picked the problem up.

One airline here has even less than the minimum training required until one crash woke the government up... however, in that crash the cabin crew of this airline did more than what most F/As are trained to do (imagine evacuating pax from the overwing in front of a running tail engine, and then they had to prove to the pax that it was safe to walk over the wing which was their only way to safety... otherwise the pax would rather sit in the aircraft until rescuers arrived!)... and these were the most junior crew in the aircraft.

It's not about their age, training helps, but it's about how they think... how they go about their jobs... and how they are assessed.

I guess the only way to see if one airline can do better than the other one is to identically crash 2 identical aircraft and see how their crew perform... Do we need to go through that?

Prior to this lawsuit, the first thing evaluated on applicants were their knees.
And here in Indonesia, that's still the first thing evaluated... But, that doesn't mean the other required aspects are ignored (though I do question some airlines)...

So back to the original thread above...

Anyway the purpose of this post is to ask a general question - where airlines have no legislative impediments, do they invariably go for young attractive cabin crew or does experience still count? Does it depend on the particular culture?

Experience do count, but that doesn't mean you can't have young attractive cabin crew... I guess in Indonesia the airlines can pick and choose the pretty ones and then select the capable ones from that bunch... my wife applied with 20,000 ppl, in the end, only 20 passed...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
VHXLR8
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Singapore Girls Too Young For Qantas

Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:50 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 39):
All you did is just prove the point so many here were trying to make. That is, SQ girls do a very good job, and are very proficient, and do so for a lot less money, and the passengers are a lot happier.

Well all you did was to change the original intent of your earlier posts and try and be credible whilst on the back foot.

And no, SQ is not a threat to me. Sorry, I know you wish they were.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 39):
Firstly I used to date a QF FA so sharing the same bed several times a week lets me know their movements pretty damn well....and let me tell you...He was paid over $75 000 pa for about 25 hrs flight time per week. Now...sorry but that is just too much. He had the shits if he couldn't buy a new BMW every few years..and was being paid more than a dentist was in his first year!!!!!!

Thanks for the life story.
Did you ever stop to think that different employees within the same particular company might be on different contractual agreements/pay scales/conditions. I'm guessing you dated a long haul FA who joined the company when things were more 'gravy-train' like. For your information, i'll end up flying close to 50 hours this week, with minimum rest between.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 39):
All for what...a 6 week course..and previous jobs working in 5 star hotels.
Give me a fricken break! That's a gravy train. And it's overpaid.

Dude, you don't know me from a bloody bar of soap, you don't know my qualifications (or any other QF crew). As it happens i have two bachelor degrees, and spent 6 years studying for those.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 39):
As for Landing and saftey checks.... well switching the doors to "armed", and checking seats are in the upright position, tray tables stowed, overhead bins secured, the galley is secured and seat belts fastened hardly compares to say.... Engine fire or flame out in hail, over the south pacific nearest diversion airport 3000km....

So why don't you tell me what wonderful job you do, so that I can insult and belittle it without knowing anything about it. I'm sorry you have such a dim view of FAs, and at this point i'm not even going to try and educate you.