squirrel83
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US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:54 am

US Airways is dropping its four daily flights from Pittsburgh International Airport to Atlanta next month.

The flights were "not performing," said airline spokeswoman Amy Kudwa.

US Airways once offered more than 500 flights a day from Pittsburgh, but now offers fewer than 220.

Airport officials have already talked to Delta Airlines, which is based Atlanta, and Orlando, Fla.-based AirTran, which has a large hub in Atlanta, about picking up the slack. Those airlines haven't said what they plan to do.

Delta already offers 10 flights a day from Pittsburgh to Atlanta and AirTran offers four
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Indy
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:57 am

Good lord. There were 18 daily depatures to a single city? No wonder US dumped the route. With a city the site of Pittsburgh can you really have slack when you have 14 daily departures to a single city?
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PITA333
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59 am

Thats a surprise and, yet, not a surprise to me at the same time. I knew that this route was not doing well because of DL and FL having the route as well. However, I am surprised that US would not downgrade it to 1 or 2 times daily before getting rid of the route all together.

Regards,
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MAH4546
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:03 am

Quoting PITA333 (Reply 2):
However, I am surprised that US would not downgrade it to 1 or 2 times daily before getting rid of the route all together.

If you don't offer at least 3x daily in this market, which relies on business traffic, it would be difficult to be successful.
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A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:03 am

This was in the schedules a week or two ago, and most of the papers picked it up then. They're dropping BOS-GSO as well.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
Delta already offers 10 flights a day from Pittsburgh to Atlanta and AirTran offers four



Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
With a city the site of Pittsburgh can you really have slack when you have 14 daily departures to a single city?

Wow! That sounds like hub carriers saturating the route... What's the load factor and just as important the percentage of O&D? DL doesn't need to add flights. If more seats are needed they could "supersize." FL... Who knows, but if its profitable I expect them to add one more.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):

If you don't offer at least 3x daily in this market, which relies on business traffic, it would be difficult to be successful.

So true. It amazes me how many people forget that the high yield customer demands convenience for their dollar.

***Warning, speculation starting***

With the US/HP merger, will PIT shrink further? I would expect to see a fleet rationalization (read: reduction) and a hub rationalization. US/HP isn't going to be large enough to support PHL, LAS, PHX, Charlotte, PIT, with "focus cities" in FLL, LAX, and probably one or two more that I've forgotten.

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N670UW
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:39 am

In addition to the ending of PIT-ATL, US Airways is suspending the Saturday-only PIT-CUN, effective Sept. 17. The service will resume on Oct. 15, again only on Saturdays, with the A319.




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dutchjet
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:45 am

On one hand, that US is dropping a route like PIT-ATL is not surprising, its hard competing against both AirTran and Delta on a route into their hub city of Atlanta. Now that PIT is no longer a US hub city, I assume that there is not adequate demand for US to operate 3 or 4 flights per day on the PIT-ATL which, as pointed, out, is the minimum number of flights on a route such as this that will keep premium pax happy. It is suprising, however, that US cannot make a flight from PIT to a major business center such as ATL work, if US is serious about keeping PIT as a focus city (is it?) and keeping PIT based travellers as loyal US Airways customers, there are certain cities to which a pax expects an airline to offer nonstop service, and I would think ATL is among those top cities. Moves such as this lead me to believe that US has really lost interest in PIT, and once the HP/US deal is finalized, PIT may see further cuts and end up with nothing more than flights to the four other US/HP hubs (PHL, CLT, LAS, PHX) and maybe some flights to highdemand leisure destinations (say Florida cities) plus, possibly, nonstops to LAX and SFO.

It will be interesting to watch which airlines fill the void at PIT resulting from the winding down of the US hub at that city.
 
LambertMan
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:01 am

Excellent post, Dutchjet.

I sometimes too question the committment of US to PIT. Even though they added IAH back to the schedules, there seems to be a lack of interest in keeping PIT alive.

The downsizing of the PIT hub to about half of what it once was is really similar to what happened in St. Louis. However it only took American a month to realize they probably trimmed STL down a little too far, and began adding flights back. It seems to be the opposite happening in PIT leading me to believe either:
A. either the local traffic can't fill the flights in place, and the schedule still needs to be resized to the local demand
or
B. US simply doesn't want anything to do with PIT

Worst case scenario is option B, and even with that I really don't think US will all together abandon PIT, too big of a FF base to just get up and walk away. Flights to major business centers, hubs, and Florida will always be there, but say goodbye to places like STL, IND, BNA etc.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
Moves such as this lead me to believe that US has really lost interest in PIT, and once the HP/US deal is finalized, PIT may see further cuts and end up with nothing more than flights to the four other US/HP hubs (PHL, CLT, LAS, PHX) and maybe some flights to highdemand leisure destinations (say Florida cities) plus, possibly, nonstops to LAX and SFO.

I suspect you are right. With US dropping almost 60 mainline aircraft over a years time, I think PIT will take the brunt of the cuts. My guess is that USAirways PIT operation will look something like this by late 2006/early 2007.

LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DEN, ORD, BOS, BDL, LGA, PHL, DCA, BWI, IAD, CLT, RDU, MCO, TPA, FLL, IAH, MSY plus a handful of smaller markets

Total number of flights around 80 (about half mainline and the other half EMB170 or RJ's).
 
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DEN, ORD, BOS, BDL, LGA, PHL, DCA, BWI, IAD, CLT, RDU, MCO, TPA, FLL, IAH, MSY plus a handful of smaller markets

Why??? I mean, is there REALLY a market for RDU-PIT? coulnd't they make better use of 3 RDU flights than PIT? I mean, start RDU-PVD with the 3 RJ.. or start RDU-JAX or RDU-RSW or RDU-SRQ or RDU-MCI or RDU-SDF or RDU-CMH or something..
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vatveng
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
US Airways once offered more than 500 flights a day from Pittsburgh, but now offers fewer than 220.

Airport officials have already talked to Delta Airlines, which is based Atlanta, and Orlando, Fla.-based AirTran, which has a large hub in Atlanta, about picking up the slack. Those airlines haven't said what they plan to do.



Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
With a city the site of Pittsburgh can you really have slack when you have 14 daily departures to a single city?

I assumed the article meant the airport officials at PIT have asked Delta and AirTran to pick up the slack for the reduction from 500 to 220 flights, to cities other than Atlanta. For example, asking AirTran to add flights from PIT to Florida.
 
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:19 am

Quoting PITA333 (Reply 2):
I am surprised that US would not downgrade it to 1 or 2 times daily before getting rid of the route all together.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
It will be interesting to watch which airlines fill the void at PIT resulting from the winding down of the US hub at that city.

You can bet FL will pick up at least one more flight to be more competitive with DL on this route. I think 4 for them and 14 for DL is a little lopsided.
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:20 am

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
Airport officials have already talked to Delta Airlines, which is based Atlanta, and Orlando, Fla.-based AirTran, which has a large hub in Atlanta, about picking up the slack

What slack is there to pick up? US offered only 200 seats per day, and as they said, the flights were not perfoming meaning either bad loads, bad yields, or both. If FL and DL decided not to add any capacity they can just enjoy better loads, and perhaps even slightly better yields. I don't think DL will care too much about it, other than perhaps upgrading the 2 CRJs to CR7s.
 
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:22 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 12):
You can bet FL will pick up at least one more flight to be more competitive with DL on this route

I don't know about that. Airtran may have other markets where the revenue would be greater. They may decide to just sit back and enjoy the greater yields.
 
Indy
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:26 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 8):
say goodbye to places like STL, IND, BNA etc

Is IND-PIT much like IND-STL once AA dismantled the hub in STL? Without the connecting opportunities there really isn't enough demand between the cities. IND-PIT is just under a 7 hour drive. They may be able to keep that route alive where IND-STL was around 4.5 hrs. PIT-BNA is over 10 hours. You don't think they'd at least keep some rj service to these markets? Without that you are talking about routes that are too long to drive and connecting in PHL or CLT would make the trip about as long as driving at least in the PIT-IND route.
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LambertMan
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:33 am

Indy,

You are making too much out of that comment, I'm saying for the Pittsburgh hub in general. I said that USAirways may keep flights to major business centers, Florida, and the hubs, none of which implicate IND. If there isn't alot of connecting traffic on routes like STL/IND-PIT, then they probably won't last. They'll just transfer a frequency or two to PHX/CLT/PHL (assuming merger).

BTW, STL was already supposed to have been cut. AX dropped the route, so US kept flying it, for the time being.
 
Indy
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:39 am

It will be a tough call for US/HP. Do you keep major control of PIT or do you cut way back and allow competition to work its way in. ATL is just a tough market to get in to. ORD is the same way. I suspect DFW was just as bad until DL closed its hub there.
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N670UW
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:43 am

In some ways this is surprising, in others not.

When US Airways announced the demotion of PIT to a focus city, they stated the goal was to focus on PIT's top 20 or 25 O&D markets.

Atlanta is PIT's third-largest O&D market, with an average of 921 daily local passengers (according to the DOT, 3Q04). Only Chicago (1,015) and New York (962) rank higher.

On the other hand, US Airways has never really been the dominant player in PIT-ATL, or even in ATL in general. Especially now -- Delta offers 9 daily flights (7 MD-80, 2 CRJ) and AirTran offers 4 (717). It's logical to understand that a few regional jet frequencies with limited connections in Pittsburgh wouldn't hold up very well against its competition.



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Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 8):
A. either the local traffic can't fill the flights in place, and the schedule still needs to be resized to the local demand
or
B. US simply doesn't want anything to do with PIT

Worst case scenario is option B, and even with that I really don't think US will all together abandon PIT, too big of a FF base to just get up and walk away. Flights to major business centers, hubs, and Florida will always be there, but say goodbye to places like STL, IND, BNA etc.

Or C. Pittsburgh residents are wanting less and less to do with US.

PIT just had it's highest O/D period EVER, DESPITE the US drawdown, and BEFORE the WN entrance to our market. PIT's traffic base isn't going anywhere, it's US that is turning their back. I'm now to the point where I really wish US would stick a fork in their PIT operations, send the Air Midwest Beech's running EAS down to CLT, and put the residents of Pittsburgh out of their misery. It's not like they contribute to the lease base as it is, they defaulted on half of it. Maybe US can find a way to add a few more flights a day to PHL... so there can be that much more congestion lined up on the taxiways burning fuel waiting for a slot to take off... especially while they're wasting fuel with nearly-empty jets on runs like PHL-ABE (61 miles) and PIT-ERI.

That said... the O&D on a PIT-ATL route, roughly would be half based in PIT, half in ATL. The half based in ATL you can bet your bottom dollars are DL/FL loyalists, leaving US to compete for SOME of the non-Skyteam member PIT based traffic. That, and the fact that DL/FL (esp. FL) give those tickets away basically to get people to their hub, and why would US even bother?? Put the planes on routes that'll make money, and let DL/FL duke it out for the PIT market to ATL.

As for your comments about places like BNA, IND, etc... alot of that will be based on WN... and I agree with you, in due time. I'd see us losing US to BNA really quickly if WN rolled into town with that flight (country music fans??), if US dropped IND to PIT I bet NW would pick it up with a CRJ... they already jumped into the PHL-IND market despite US having a ton of capacity on that run already. STL.. AA already, with some connection opportunities there. More markets I expect PIT to lose as soon as WN (or *gasp* B6) looks at them: MHT, PVD, PWM.

US could easily use PIT for connections to their rather limited Midwest stations, CLT for their southern/Caribbean network, and PHL for the bread-and-butter NE US markets... which is a plan that would make a good bit of sense and really help the range out on an RJ (that ~ 300mi from PHL-PIT + extra taxi time at PHL would really give US better range to the west from PIT vs PHL) but if US did things that made sense to most of us... they would have liquidated long ago because that was the most logical chapter for the US story up until that mythical merger became reality.
 
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:04 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 9):
LAX, SFO, PHX, LAS, DEN, ORD, BOS, BDL, LGA, PHL, DCA, BWI, IAD, CLT, RDU, MCO, TPA, FLL, IAH, MSY plus a handful of smaller markets

PVD would supercede BDL on the priority list. It's the #2 station in New England behind, obviously, BOS.
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LambertMan
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:14 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 19):
Or C. Pittsburgh residents are wanting less and less to do with US.

Interesting proposition. Our situations are incredibly similar, both were giant hubs, and were basically cut in half.

Its hard to think that Pittsburgh residents will just turn their back on US but I guess if it (the cuts) got enough negative publicity, it could very well happen. I remember when the FLL focus city was opened up, the PIT airport director called it a "slap in the face".

American got its share of negative publicity, but when they made the cuts it was as if loyalty to the AA/TW brand just increased. American can basically do whatever they want in St. Louis and dictate the fares, while the local public will still fly it because it offers the best overall product. WN is nearly the only other option for n/s service, and they are reportedly unhappy with St. Louis in a number of ways (Loads, Costs, rwy 11/29).

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 19):
I'm now to the point where I really wish US would stick a fork in their PIT operations

Our scenarios are extmrely similar, and at one point I was also wishing AA would pack up and leave. When you think about it however, St. Louis wouldn't have flights to places like RIC, ORF, VPS etc. PIT would likely be in the same boat, losing numerous destinations, so be careful what you wish for.

The worst case scenario for PIT overall would be US Airways staying in PIT, and having no interest in it. Hopefully US Airways doesn't linger with 150 flights, either keep the 210-220 you have today and be the dominant force, or downsize and keep the few premium routes. If the linger with 150 flights, that will be just enough to keep any new significant entrants out, and PIT will suffer. If they downsize, and keep 30-50 flights a day, a slew of new service from other carriers would flow in.
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:18 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 21):
The worst case scenario for PIT overall would be US Airways staying in PIT, and having no interest in it. Hopefully US Airways doesn't linger with 150 flights, either keep the 210-220 you have today and be the dominant force, or downsize and keep the few premium routes. If the linger with 150 flights, that will be just enough to keep any new significant entrants out, and PIT will suffer. If they downsize, and keep 30-50 flights a day, a slew of new service from other carriers would flow in.

That was my point too... leave to "make room" for others. We might physically have the gate room already, but the perception is that we're still a US fortress... regardless of stuff like Hooters and USA3000 or whatever they are moving in... and WN's recent entry.
 
FlyBoy84
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:44 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 21):
American can basically do whatever they want in St. Louis and dictate the fares, while the local public will still fly it because it offers the best overall product.

Well, I'm from St. Louis and I've seen a shift in passenger traffic from the C and D gates to the A gates, large conventions and holiday traffic notwithstanding. Perhaps a slight shift in attitudes toward American.

I'll fly US before I fly American.
 
4holer
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:46 am

Hmm.
Now PIT says they are reopening 11 of the closed gates to meet the increased O/D demand...
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05192/536256.stm
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srbmod
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:02 am

At one point pre-9/11, US was doing pretty good against DL on the route, and was flying every non-Airbus narrowbody in their fleet at the time on the route as well. US and DL had competition before FL even restarted the route (it was a route they previously flew back during the Valujet days), as Vanguard flew it as well. US had done nothing but downgrade the route since FL entered. It went to a E-170s and then to EMB-145s. The dropping of these flights will probably make it easier to integrate HP's flights into ATL into the US gates once the merger is consumated.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:52 am

I don't know why anybody is surprised by this. Look for DTW to be next, along with smaller markets like AVP, BUF, CMH, DAY, ROC...

The downsizing of the PIT hub to about half of what it once was is really similar to what happened in St. Louis. However it only took American a month to realize they probably trimmed STL down a little too far, and began adding flights back.

US has reentered markets including IAH, PWM, and (soon) MBJ.

It seems to be the opposite happening in PIT leading me to believe either:
A. either the local traffic can't fill the flights in place, and the schedule still needs to be resized to the local demand


Bingo.

Is IND-PIT much like IND-STL once AA dismantled the hub in STL? Without the connecting opportunities there really isn't enough demand between the cities.

IND-PIT has decent O&D demand. I think the route is currently just a little overserved, and could stand to have two of the RJs downgrade to Dash 8's. I do think that if NW enters the market, US will exit.

If there isn't alot of connecting traffic on routes like STL/IND-PIT, then they probably won't last.

You've got it backwards. It's the conx traffic that US *doesn't* want.

On the other hand, US Airways has never really been the dominant player in PIT-ATL, or even in ATL in general.

While I agree that US has certainly never been anything approaching "dominant" in ATL, just a few years ago they were running nonstops to BOS, BWI, CLT, DCA, IAD, LGA, PHL, PIT, RDU. Now they're down to CLT, DCA, PHL.

Now PIT says they are reopening 11 of the closed gates to meet the increased O/D demand...

That's the spin they're putting on it, but the fact is just that US is moving some ops from A over to B. I've heard a rumor WN will be taking A5, but that's certainly not 11 gates.

The dropping of these flights will probably make it easier to integrate HP's flights into ATL into the US gates once the merger is consumated.

That's really not an issue here; US has plenty of gates in ATL.
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srbmod
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 26):

That's really not an issue here; US has plenty of gates in ATL.

I wouldn't call three gates "plenty", if they had their fourth gate back (Delta Connection uses an old US gate and even the jetway is gone) that might be enough. US has to park E-170s and sometimes 737s and even ERJs over on E overnight so they can have room for their early morning departures to come in the night before.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:06 am

I wouldn't call three gates "plenty", if they had their fourth gate back (Delta Connection uses an old US gate and even the jetway is gone) that might be enough. US has to park E-170s and sometimes 737s and even ERJs over on E overnight so they can have room for their early morning departures to come in the night before.

My bad, I thought they still had four. Still, gate issues can be solved; the reason the flight was cancelled was because it performs like crap. (LCC market + high CASM RJs = problem)
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 26):
You've got it backwards. It's the conx traffic that US *doesn't* want.

HOW, please tell me, do you think US is going to cram that much more traffic through PHL if they don't want any connecting done at PIT?? Or are they just going to give up on the traffic? US has a niche... something like CRW to Upstate NY is much more direct through PIT than PHL, likewise with IND/DAY/CMH to New England or Upstate NY. I'm not saying it should be a massive hub at this point (although the economics of wasted fuel and rebookings from misconnects alone probably negate the "overwhelming O&D advantages at PHL") but the current operation, with some tweaks like these overcapacitied ATL flights and then maybe adding a few here and there like the additions to IAH are what will work. You fail to ever address the most important problem with PHL. It is ALREADY over crowded, just look at www.fly.faa.gov any time there is a cloud in the sky. PHL is quickly on its way to becoming the next ORD.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 26):
That's the spin they're putting on it

Of course, God forbid something positive is said about PIT, you couldn't allow for that to happen without trying to say something negative to counter it. Are they opening gates? Were they closed prior? Yes, and yes, then that's a reopening. What's spin about that? Do you STILL fail to realize and accept the fact that PIT's O&D is at its highest ever now that we're not held in US's back pocket? Wouldn't that ever-growing O&D need places to go within the terminal?? It's not like they're building new gates, they're just reopening previously shuttered gates. If they had re-opened the entire E-concourse, then you might have something to be cynical about, but it's just some gates in the main terminal which probably should have never closed in the first place.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:22 am

HOW, please tell me, do you think US is going to cram that much more traffic through PHL if they don't want any connecting done at PIT?? Or are they just going to give up on the traffic?

They don't want to be focused on low-yield connecting traffic *anywhere*. That's why the transcons and Florida flights are getting slashed, even from CLT and PHL, to concentrate on O&D in those markets.

Of course, God forbid something positive is said about PIT, you couldn't allow for that to happen without trying to say something negative to counter it. Are they opening gates? Were they closed prior? Yes, and yes, then that's a reopening. What's spin about that? Do you STILL fail to realize and accept the fact that PIT's O&D is at its highest ever now that we're not held in US's back pocket? Wouldn't that ever-growing O&D need places to go within the terminal?? It's not like they're building new gates, they're just reopening previously shuttered gates. If they had re-opened the entire E-concourse, then you might have something to be cynical about, but it's just some gates in the main terminal which probably should have never closed in the first place.

They're opening gates in B, and they'll be closing gates in A. It's a wash. Get over it.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
KarlB737
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:28 am

PIT Working on Luggage, Gate Improvements:

Courtesy: WTAE-TV

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/4708537/detail.html
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 30):

They're opening gates in B, and they'll be closing gates in A. It's a wash. Get over it.

And where will all the turboprops go if they close gates in A? B?? So we can squeeze them around another set of gates not designed for props??

Quoting A330323X (Reply 30):
They don't want to be focused on low-yield connecting traffic *anywhere*.

They better call up AirMidwest then and let them know that before they bid on anymore EAS to PIT then. I somehow doubt those HGR/MGW/CKB/FKL/etc.-PIT hops are going to be strictly direct O&D without a connection. I doubt Air Midwest would be signing multi-year and in some cases multi-billion dollar deals with the Federal Government if that were the case.
 
MAH4546
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:41 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 32):

They better call up AirMidwest then and let them know that before they bid on anymore EAS to PIT then. I somehow doubt those HGR/MGW/CKB/FKL/etc.-PIT hops are going to be strictly direct O&D without a connection. I doubt Air Midwest would be signing multi-year and in some cases multi-billion dollar deals with the Federal Government if that were the case.

EAS routes can be changed while the contract is still being ran. In fact, expect many of the PIT EAS routes to switch over to IAD, as some already have.
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A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:48 am

And where will all the turboprops go if they close gates in A? B??

Yes. And they're not getting rid of ALL of the A gates (yet), so it will be mostly RJs moving to B.

They better call up AirMidwest then and let them know that before they bid on anymore EAS to PIT then. I somehow doubt those HGR/MGW/CKB/FKL/etc.-PIT hops are going to be strictly direct O&D without a connection.

That conx traffic is not low-yield, and it's not being done with high CASM RJs.

I doubt Air Midwest would be signing multi-year and in some cases multi-billion dollar deals with the Federal Government if that were the case.

Multi-billion?! LOL. Somebody better tell Air Midwest. The budget for the entire EAS program is about $100 million, not all of which gets used.

[Edited 2005-07-11 23:52:26]
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Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33):

EAS routes can be changed while the contract is still being ran. In fact, expect many of the PIT EAS routes to switch over to IAD, as some already have.

Some = AOO (JST?), as per an agreement with the airport management group up there as well.

For those to switch to IAD on a more plentiful basis you'd need some combo of these couple things.
#1. Air Midwest to become part of UA-X. With United's union troubles I don't know how they'd take to adding another Express carrier... unless they somehow grandfather it through the agreements already set with Mesa for the RJ's Mesa runs now.
#2. IF not #1... you'd need the US/UA codeshare to continue after the merger with HP for sending those flights to IAD to be worth a damn... and there have been wild rumors about US/HP's alliance situations post-merger so that's very up in the air.
#3. HP themselves have a pretty heavy chunk of connecting/EAS type traffic out west, so they're dumping that too to make this whole idea work?
#4. A FlyI collapse... to open up the IAD congestion a little better.
#5. UA to survive... which isn't a given, yet. (I'm not speaking gloom and doom anti-UA stuff... but they're still not on solid ground and that's a proven fact)

If you want to know where that US EAS will go if US relinquishes it, look to the NW of Pittsburgh. CLE, and DTW. Mesaba has had no qualms of sucking up old US markets and making them work even when US hasn't... with a bigger plane even... take a look at LBE! Commutair switches around their myriad of routes for their B1900's semi frequently, so it wouldn't be hard to swing down to some place like HGR or MGW if they see an opportunity to get in there without getting outbid by a US-X affiliate. In the end, it'll be more niche business US will have pissed away chasing their windmills of being the next WN.
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 34):
Multi-billion?! LOL. Somebody better tell Air Midwest. The budget for the entire EAS program is about $100 million, not all of which gets used.

Whoops. Obviously a typo, don't call the police on me.
 
Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:59 am

Back to the lines of that EAS traffic. Awhile back you were providing us with good information on the EAS situations at HGR, MGW, and CKB. Any news on that front? I think that thread has gotten shuffled into oblivion now.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:20 am

In fact, expect many of the PIT EAS routes to switch over to IAD, as some already have.

I think most of the ones likely to switch hubs have already done so--AOO, BKW, BLF, LWB, SHD. I don't see more than one or two of the others moving to IAD. Partially, this is due to Colgan's newfound reluctance to bid on Air Midwest routes; Colgan has more viable options for some of these routes (e.g. could move CKB/MGW/PKB to DCA and ART/MSS/OGS to BOS).

Awhile back you were providing us with good information

As opposed to this information, which I guess I'm pulling out of my ass?  Silly

on the EAS situations at HGR, MGW, and CKB. Any news on that front?

No news really. No one's ever accused the DOT of rushing to a decision. The HGR community recently supported the AMW bid for 3x PIT service. I'd expect a DOT decision there within a month, for the AMW 3x PIT bid. The West Virginia communities don't comment until the end of the month; that's a more complicated case, especially if all the communites don't agree, so I wouldn't expect a DOT decision for about 8-10 weeks after the comments are due. There's also a big bid out right now in Kansas that I didn't bother mentioning because I figured no one cares; I could summarize it in another thread if someone would like me to.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:22 am

As for the EAS stuff switching from PIT to IAD, you can easily do an on-line transfer between Air Midwest onto United, or any other airline that has interline agreements. They don't need to be brought in as an Express carrier, although a codeshare would help immensely. It still can be done as is.

HGR may be as good as gone in terms of EAS. However, rumors have it that they are interested in still pursuing service to somewhere. The options include Piedmont to PHL or Mesaba to DTW.

I believe that MGW & CKB will be switching service to IAD before too long.


As said, DTW-PIT on USAirways Express will likely be the next victim. With US DCA service, along with PHL, and of course NW in DTW, this route relies on the dwindling DTW-PIT O&D.

For now it just seems that PIT is going to have this painfully slow death. A few flights dropped here, a few flights dropped there, etc. Sooner or a later the bottom will drop out.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:24 am

Sooner or a later the bottom will drop out.

Think sooner.  Wink

Like the November schedule sooner.  Silly
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Tornado82
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:41 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 38):
Colgan has more viable options for some of these routes (e.g. could move CKB/MGW/PKB to DCA and ART/MSS/OGS to BOS).

I think you meant AMW in MGW. But... DCA is built up to a comparable level (as far as US goes) as PIT... why send the traffic to DCA and use up valuable slots?? Or will EAS traffic be immune to slot restrictions at DCA? And as for ART/MSS/OGS... my God that's got to be a hellish run on a B1900. Hope ya didn't drink much before the flight, especially if you boarded at the first stop of that run.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 40):
Sooner or a later the bottom will drop out.

Think sooner. Wink

Like the November schedule sooner. Silly

GOOD! Then we can get a variety of service from a variety of airlines. If the O&D keeps climbing airlines won't continue to ignore it... like that one with the Blue tails maybe??

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 39):

HGR may be as good as gone in terms of EAS. However, rumors have it that they are interested in still pursuing service to somewhere. The options include Piedmont to PHL or Mesaba to DTW.

With the economic/population buildup of Maryland reaching up to the HGR area, and even the Chambersburg, PA area growing somewhat rapidly by PA standards... it's surprising HGR can't profitably support service without subsidies.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 39):
As for the EAS stuff switching from PIT to IAD, you can easily do an on-line transfer between Air Midwest onto United, or any other airline that has interline agreements. They don't need to be brought in as an Express carrier, although a codeshare would help immensely. It still can be done as is.

Lose the codeshare/express carrier affiliations and then you get a situation that "NationsAir" or whatever they were called who bid on the J41 service from MGW/CKB/PKB-CVG... where they had no codeshares/agreements... and would be in that far off non-Skyteam terminal. What good is it really? You're going to need double connects everywhere, and it's VERY costly to buy tickets if the CVG proposal bears any resemblance to it.

At these times I wonder if Delta Connection kicks themselves for having nothing smaller/cheaper than the CRJ's?? CKB/MGW-CVG on Delta with all their connecting options to CVG could be an awesome setup... likewise it's just a shame Commutair doesn't want a slice of that Mountain State Pie.

A330323X: If you're a CMU student in PIT, do you actually have an inside source to know the Nov. schedule cuts... or is that speculation?
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:52 am

I think you meant AMW in MGW. But... DCA is built up to a comparable level (as far as US goes) as PIT... why send the traffic to DCA and use up valuable slots?? Or will EAS traffic be immune to slot restrictions at DCA?

No, I meant that since it's Air Midwest is in West Virginia and upstate New York, they can't move the flights to DCA or BOS, whereas Colgan could (since AMW can't operate into DCA with the Beech, and Colgan is the only USX affiliate allowed at BOS)--so AMW is stuck with only the options of PIT and IAD, and PIT is the better choice in many cases. As for the slots at DCA, there are specific slot exemptions for the West Virginia communities. I discussed it in the original thread at http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2186940.

do you actually have an inside source to know the Nov. schedule cuts... or is that speculation?

I do know that there will be big cuts. I don't have specific knowledge of what they will be, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to surmise which routes would be first on the chopping block.
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MAH4546
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:47 am

Yes, there will be more cuts coming to Pittsburgh for the November schedule which should be announced mid-August along with some new routes from FLL that will partly replace capacity. (Emphasis on partly; the new flights from FLL will be a very small fraction of what PIT will be losing).
a.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
Yes, there will be more cuts coming to Pittsburgh for the November schedule which should be announced mid-August along with some new routes from FLL that will partly replace capacity.

Care to elaborate? (actually, I'm more interested in the Fort Lauderdale additions, but the Pittsburgh subtractions will be nice to hear too, unless you live in Pittsburgh or one of those other cities)
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pgh234
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:17 pm

I do find it rather pathetic that US Airways can't fill a few ERJ's on one of PIT's biggest O&D routes. However, I am guessing that AirTran will bring back their "on again-off again" 5th ATL flight with this announcement. Fares have not been abnormally low in the PIT-ATL market (unlike PIT-IAD). AirTran also seems to be filling its planes (I've almost been bumped from taking a few x-fare flights due to full planes)

pgh234
 
MAH4546
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:21 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 44):

Care to elaborate? (actually, I'm more interested in the Fort Lauderdale additions, but the Pittsburgh subtractions will be nice to hear too, unless you live in Pittsburgh or one of those other cities)

I know nothing other than an announcement is planned and SFO-FLL is supposed to be announced.
a.
 
A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:23 pm

Quoting Pgh234 (Reply 45):
I do find it rather pathetic that US Airways can't fill a few ERJ's on one of PIT's biggest O&D routes. However, I am guessing that AirTran will bring back their "on again-off again" 5th ATL flight with this announcement. Fares have not been abnormally low in the PIT-ATL market (unlike PIT-IAD). AirTran also seems to be filling its planes (I've almost been bumped from taking a few x-fare flights due to full planes)

There's a big difference between a full plane and a profitable one.  Yeah sure

US is having no trouble filling the planes.
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A330323X
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 44):
Care to elaborate? (actually, I'm more interested in the Fort Lauderdale additions, but the Pittsburgh subtractions will be nice to hear too, unless you live in Pittsburgh or one of those other cities)

I can't add anything much to what Mark said, other than the return of BDL/BWI/EWR is rumored along with the start of SFO and some increased intra-Florida Express lift. On the international side, the three new cities most often talked about are LIM/MGA/POS; I'd assume we'll see one or two of them, and perhaps a city from the existing US network like GCM or MEX.

As for the PIT subtractions, use your imagination.
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MAH4546
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RE: US Airways Is Dropping Its 4 PIT-ATL Routes

Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:32 pm

Basiclly, for PIT, anything and everything is fair game except for the obvious: PHL, CLT, PHX, LAS, BOS, LGA, FLL, DCA, MCO, and the EAS cities.
a.

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