DCAflyboy
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WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:23 am

Just spoke with a WN employee who gave me some interesting news. Sorry if this is old (been flying a lot and away from the forum) but he told me WN is going to start service out of Harrisburg, PA (MDT). In addition, he told me WN wants out of PHL. TOTALLY out!

He also told me that their fuel hedges expire in August and their bid for Delta's hedges were nixed by GE who outbid them.

As a US employee this brought a huge smile to my face.

Not sure how factual this all is and I would never wish bad news for another airline...ok, maybe except for WN. But after what happened at BWI I can't help but feel some vindication.

I don't think US could actually say they drove WN out of PHL since I don't think it really was their niche, but we sure surprised them when they didn't kill us or see us die off.

At any rate, the info. made my weekend  Big grin
 
padcrasher
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:27 am

Delta's hedges? I'm not aware of Delta having any signficant hedges. (10% of fuel needs at $50) and why would they sell those?

I can see WN having a tough time in PHL, but pulling out? Come on?

Fair warning. You're about to get slammed by Southwest's Praetorian Guard.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:28 am

That would likely be very good news for US of course, but I had read that WN was going to increase PHL service, not pull out.
One Nation Under God
 
Indy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:30 am

Here are some guesses...

1. They can't afford to fly into PHL without their hedges.
2. They aren't ready to go head to head with the US/HP final product.
3. They can't get the gate space and/or respect from PHL that they want.
4. The info you were given by the WN employee was just BS.

I'm leaning toward #4. #1 - #2 would be out of character for WN. #3 is a possibility but #4 is most likely.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:33 am

I'm only stating what I heard from a WN employee. I know nothing about hedges excpet that DL needed the cash, apparently.

At any rate, I realize this is hearsay. But why is totally pulling out of PHL so unrealistic? They want to totally pull out of SEA.
 
BWI757
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:38 am

Harrisburg?????

Only 80 miles from BWI! Its also about 2 hours from PHL, what would they gain by doing THAT? Compete against themselves? Fly into Harrisburg to go to PHL? BWI is a better option IMHO....

(All figures from Mapquest)

BWI757
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
Cory6188
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:39 am

I would be pretty skeptical of this information, especially considering the fact that PHL has been one of WN's fastest-growing cities ever.
 
quickmover
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:40 am

I remember when WN first started service at PHL, they said in a press release that it was one of their most successful new cities ever. I really don't think anything has changed except the delays have been tough lately and the USAir/AWA merger. Could it be they are making these noises behind the scenes in order to wrangle more gates?
 
LambertMan
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:40 am

Given WN's strategy of avoiding the congested airport, and add in Harrisburg as a nifty alternative, it could be remotely possible.

I'm weary of posting rumors like this, because usually you get powerslammed. Rule of thumb, if it ain't extremely reliable or it doesn't make 100% sense, probably don't post it. Big grin
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:41 am

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 5):
Only 80 miles from BWI! Its also about 2 hours from PHL, what would they gain by doing THAT? Compete against themselves?

Hence, they would pull out of PHL.
 
Wayfarer
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:43 am

Southwest should not pull out of PHL ... I would say that if WN wants to grow near PHL, they should consider start flying to Wilkes-Barre / Scranton? or Allentown?
EASTERN AIRLINES: We Are Still Here Today
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:45 am

I think this WN employee decided to have a little fun with a US employee.  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
quickmover
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:47 am

Do they have any investment in PHL that they would lose if they went to Allentown? I could see alot of WN customers making that drive and without delays, it might make sense.
 
toltommy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:48 am

Delta doesn't have significant hedges. They sold them last year, thinking that the price of oil had stabilized, and they needed the cash. The higher cost of fuel has more than offset the quick cash infusion they got from the sale.

I'm thinking this is flamebait. Southwest has been happy with the loads at PHL. In fact, I'd say they are even making money at PHL, something US hasn't done in years!

I don't ever take the word of a front line employee as gospel, fact is, they are usually the LAST to know. Usually when a front line employee tells you about alleged new service, company changes, etc, its them telling you what they'd like to see. Sounds to me like made up wishful thinking of a US employee to me.

Totally pull out of SEA? No, they still plan to serve the Seattle market, just looking at flying out of Boeing Field instead, in order to keep costs in line. Again, wishful thinking on somebody's part.
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 8):
I'm weary of posting rumors like this, because usually you get powerslammed. Rule of thumb, if it ain't extremely reliable or it doesn't make 100% sense, probably don't post it.

I'd be willing to guess that 90 percent of the postings here are not reliable. But those of us in the industry know that we live and breathe rumors. Everything is rumor until we read about it or see it in the media. The general public usually knows things before we the employees.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:51 am

MDT is in no way shape or form an alternative airport to PHL. first of all, it's not even in harrisburg -- it's about 20 miles south toward lancaster. second of all, if you live in philly and you are willing to drive to save money, you drive to BWI, not MDT. the flight choices out of MDT are pretty slim as well.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:51 am

I would NOT put 10 cents into this rumor. Why didn't Herb go to Harrisburg in the first place?
WN isn't stupid. They would not study a market, only to pull out in a year or less.
The only short term service was DET and WN gave Detroit three years to lengthen the runway. Detroit did not so WN left that airport.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
PVD757
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:52 am

I'll just be nice and say that I highly doubt the information you heard was at all accurate...
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 7):
I remember when WN first started service at PHL, they said in a press release that it was one of their most successful new cities ever.

Of course it was. With $39 intro fares how could it not have been. Duh
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:56 am

I can tell you one part of your story that is definitely false...the expiring hedges in August part.

WN already has significant fuel hedges in place for the remainder of this year, plus continuing into 2006 and 2007. So if WN did leave PHL (which I seriously doubt), it won't be because of the fuel hedges.
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Totally pull out of SEA? No, they still plan to serve the Seattle market, just looking at flying out of Boeing Field instead, in order to keep costs in line. Again, wishful thinking on somebody's part.

You know what I meant. Don't be stupid.
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 16):
Why didn't Herb go to Harrisburg in the first place?
WN isn't stupid. They would not study a market, only to pull out in a year or less.

I have a feeling they regret going to PHL. JUST a feeling, my opinion and from what I hear from WN employees. Let's face it, WN thought US would be dead by now and they would own PHL.
 
Tornado82
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:01 am

Quoting BWI757 (Reply 5):
Harrisburg?????

Only 80 miles from BWI! Its also about 2 hours from PHL, what would they gain by doing THAT? Compete against themselves? Fly into Harrisburg to go to PHL? BWI is a better option IMHO....

Is MDT big enough (gate wise) to handle that influx as well??

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 8):

Given WN's strategy of avoiding the congested airport, and add in Harrisburg as a nifty alternative, it could be remotely possible.

ABE is FAR closer to the PHL metro base than MDT... and ABE would draw Northern NJ as well. And not congested... condense gates for other airlines a bit... we have 15 total... and voila.

Quoting Wayfarer (Reply 10):
Southwest should not pull out of PHL ... I would say that if WN wants to grow near PHL, they should consider start flying to Wilkes-Barre / Scranton? or Allentown?

AVP (W-B/Scranton) is too far out of civilization (by that I mean the PHL/MDT/RDG/LNS/EWR metros). ABE though always seemed better to me than PHL for an airline like WN... and that was BEFORE I moved here even! ABE would be like another remote NYC airport for WN as well. I'm not a fan of WN, but I honestly think ABE would be a very good match for them, and LVIA would love them for it!
 
goingboeing
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:03 am

I think someone's leg just got pulled.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:04 am

If true it would severely damage the almost invincible reputation at Southwest for pulling out of very few markets and routes. This would be a catastrophic blow to a carrier that prides itself in doing a thorough analysis on cities before starting service at them. It is almost mythical, this reputation. So if they do pull out of PHL, gone will be that reputation.

From what I understand, the comparably stellar financial results that Southwest has reported is due to fuel hedges. Once those go away, Southwest starts looking like all the other carriers in that regard.
 
jfrworld
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:09 am

DCAFlyboy, I've read several of your postings and you don't seem to have much credibility where WN is concerened. All you do is bash and spread misinformation and US progaganda.

  

[Edited 2005-07-11 21:10:17]
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:15 am

Quoting Jfrworld (Reply 25):
DCFlyboy, I've read several of your postings and you don't seem to have much credibility where WN is concerened. All you do is bash and spread misinformation and US progaganda.

The FACT remains, US is defending it's territory in PHL tooth and nail. It will not be another BWI. WN hates the fact that they can't kill US. And that is not propaganda!!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:17 am

DCAflyboy,

Granted you've only been on A.net since April of this year; but still that's long enough to know better than to post something of this nature WITHOUT a reliable PRINTED source to back it up.  whistleblower 

With regards to your post, I don't believe a word of it; especially given the success (read passenger surge) that has taken place at PHL this past year.

With regards to WN aquiring more gates; since the HP/US merger will not initially free up any gates (HP presently uses one or two of CO's gates at Terminal D), the Terminal E gate expansion project (originally known as Hammerhead E) will now go forward. There still is speculation that, in the meantime, either NW or DL might get bumped out of E to give WN more gates before the expansion project. However, unless Isdell at DOA can twist US' arms to relinquish some gates at B or C (so that DL or NW can be relocated); I don't see this happening anytime soon. The DOA may hold off on any gate switching until next year when several carriers' 30-year gate leases expire next June.

If, for some reason, WN ever had to abandon PHL, I would see them going to ABE (about 60 miles north of PHL) rather than MDT. Prior to WN's PHL announcement nearly 2 years ago, many people (myself included) thought that ABE would be WN's first Pennsylvania airport.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
BWI757
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 9):
Quoting BWI757 (Reply 5):
Compete against themselves?

Hence, they would pull out of PHL.

I meant harrisburg - bwi not harrisburg - PHL
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 24):
If true it would severely damage the almost invincible reputation at Southwest for pulling out of very few markets and routes. This would be a catastrophic blow to a carrier that prides itself in doing a thorough analysis on cities before starting service at them. It is almost mythical, this reputation. So if they do pull out of PHL, gone will be that reputation.

I'm not saying WN will pull out of PHL totally. Just stating what I was told. I personally don't think they would ever pull out of PHL totally. The arrogance of WN is too great and they would rather lose millions in PHL and stay put forever then pull out and give the impression they are running or failed to beat down US.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:21 am

I'm curious. Were you really speaking to this employee one-on-one? Or did you over-hear a couple WN employees chatting. A lot of airline employees think they can play management and tell each other the ways they feel the company should be run in certain areas and present it like it's the way it's going to happen. I hear this kind of crap all the time from employees of many airlines when I'm riding on the employee parking shuttle.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):
Granted you've only been on A.net since April of this year; but still that's long enough to know better than to post something of this nature WITHOUT a reliable PRINTED source to back it up.

Give me a break. This is a forum, not a newspaper. Forum means opinions and discussions. So get off your high horse.
 
Tornado82
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):
If, for some reason, WN ever had to abandon PHL, I would see them going to ABE (about 60 miles north of PHL) rather than MDT. Prior to WN's PHL announcement nearly 2 years ago, many people (myself included) thought that ABE would be WN's first Pennsylvania airport.

Me too. ABE has more gates (15 v 12) as well. A WN operation needs a few gates.
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 30):
I'm curious. Were you really speaking to this employee one-on-one?

Yes, one-on-one.
 
luv2fly
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 21):
I have a feeling they regret going to PHL. JUST a feeling, my opinion and from what I hear from WN employees. Let's face it, WN thought US would be dead by now and they would own PHL.

The US/HP merger could very well be the death of both carriers. WN could still end up owning PHL! This merger is a lot like a troubled marriage when the couple decides to save it by having a baby, no one wins most certainly the baby.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
PHLBOS
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:33 am

Another reason why this rumor is (as Harry Morgan/Col. Potter would put it) Grade A 100% Bull-cookies; is that given how WN outbid FL at the 11th hour to aquire TZ's MDW assets. WN is not going to leave PHL wide open for FL to expand en masse. Keep in mind that prior to WN's Oct. 2003 announcement that it would be coming to PHL, FL was getting all the headlines regarding its growth at PHL (with the potential of growing further).

[Edited 2005-07-11 21:34:31]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
B744F
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):
Granted you've only been on A.net since April of this year; but still that's long enough to know better than to post something of this nature WITHOUT a reliable PRINTED source to back it up.

Who the hell do you think you are?
 
BigGSFO
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:36 am

WN does not have a history of making rapid departures so soon after starting service. Nor are they known for not doing their research. I believe they have only pulled out of 3 cities in their entire history: Brownsville, Denver and San Francisco Int'l. I understand the opportunity to seize on PHL service, but then part of me is also surprised that their choice in the Philly metro area wasn't Wilmington, DE, as WN likes those under-utilized airports in the same metro areas as the big int'l airports. ILG and PHL are 24 miles apart.
 
toltommy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 20):
You know what I meant. Don't be stupid.

If I'm not mistaken, you started this thread....  butthead 
 
Jalto27R
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:38 am

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 18):
Of course it was. With $39 intro fares how could it not have been. Duh

Haha sorry bud, but the big reason WN did so well at PHL was because of the press, and the fact that PHL users were so sick and tired of the monopoly of high fares. All your posts lead me to believe this is a bunch of BS, because in no way are you even trying to be objective.

Mike
 
PVD757
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:45 am

What I find funny is that you probably didn't even think about what they were saying before you decided to post it. Most of what you started the thread on is not even close to the truth. The fuel hedges are in place for a few years. Your reply in #29 is totally ridiculous. WN could care less what other people think, they only care about their employees and their passengers. The only thing that has saved US from extinction is the fact that outside investors think they can make easy money off the backs of the employees and for no other reason. You've taken plenty of paycuts and they think you will march to their drum. HP isn't even saving you, it's outside investors buying both airlines out. What your airline seems to not get is why you have been terribly vulnerable in past the to begin with. When you gouge people the way you do, any of the LCCs with enough moxy could come and disrupt your "feeding" on the public. Worry about how many of your coworkers are going to be screwed over by your union reps during the next contract negotiatons. ouch 
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 39):
All your posts lead me to believe this is a bunch of BS, because in no way are you even trying to be objective.

Once again, I admitted this was hearsay!! I'm not trying to be objective, BUD!

Like most topics on here, I just thought it would be good discussion and thought maybe somebody could bring other information to the topic -- whether they be facts or opinions. Geesh.
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:51 am

isnt harrisburg a bit small for wn?
 
exFATboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):
If, for some reason, WN ever had to abandon PHL, I would see them going to ABE (about 60 miles north of PHL) rather than MDT.

In the incredibly unlikely event that WN had to pull out of PHL, I think they would consider TTN before ABE.

But I think this WN employee is having some fun with you. The statement "their fuel hedges expire in August" is flat-out wrong. Here's a quote from the 1st Quarter 2005 Earnings Press Release:

"We are 83 percent hedged for second quarter 2005 with crude oil prices capped at $26 per barrel. Based on current market conditions, we expect our jet fuel costs per gallon for second quarter 2005 to exceed first quarter 2005's 90.3 cents. We remain 85 percent hedged for second half 2005 at $26 per barrel; 65 percent in 2006 at $32 per barrel; over 45 percent in 2007 at $31 per barrel; 30 percent in 2008 at $33 per barrel; and over 25 percent in 2009 at $35 per barrel."
 
luv2fly
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:51 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 37):
WN does not have a history of making rapid departures so soon after starting service. Nor are they known for not doing their research. I believe they have only pulled out of 3 cities in their entire history: Brownsville, Denver and San Francisco Int'l. I understand the opportunity to seize on PHL service, but then part of me is also surprised that their choice in the Philly metro area wasn't Wilmington, DE, as WN likes those under-utilized airports in the same metro areas as the big int'l airports. ILG and PHL are 24 miles apart.

They did pull out of DET as well though they had started that city after they started up DTW. Promised made about improvements for DET never came and after 5 years they consolidated all flights at DTW.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
typhaerion
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting DCAflyboy (Reply 26):
The FACT remains, US is defending it's territory in PHL tooth and nail. It will not be another BWI. WN hates the fact that they can't kill US. And that is not propaganda!!

I doubt very much that WN wants to kill US. The lack of competition would be more hurtful to them than anything. What, without higher fare alternatives to keep people flocking to WN in droves, where would they be? They would be accused of price gouging. This is not saying that WN offers a better product out of PHL, I am just saying that they try to do it at a lower price.

They do however, like a good scrap, anyone who knows the history of WN knows that Southwest has never been one to shy from a fight if they could win it.

I expect to see both WN and 'US/HP' planes out of PHL for many years to come.  Smile
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
filejw
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:54 am

Well 90% of what you read here is rumor,but WN did pull out of SFO because of congestion..And you can't get more congested than PHL.
 
DCAflyboy
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:55 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 40):
When you gouge people

Don't give the major carriers crap about gouging. If by gouging you mean charging what we think the market will pay, then fine. We gouged. I don't feel a bit sorry for the business person paying more. SO WHAT! They're not the ones paying for the tickets. We didn't make them stay over Saturday nights -- their employers made them do it because they're too cheap. So raise the travel budget. Stop blaming the airlines. Maybe they should have stayed at cheaper hotels and increased thier flying budget.
 
DCAflyboy
Topic Author
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 43):
But I think this WN employee is having some fun with you. The statement "their fuel hedges expire in August" is flat-out wrong. Here's a quote from the 1st Quarter 2005 Earnings Press Release:

Thank you Ex...This is one of the reasons why I posted this topic. I wanted to learn more and turn a rumor into fact.
 
BWI757
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RE: WN Wants Out Of PHL?!

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 36):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):
Granted you've only been on A.net since April of this year; but still that's long enough to know better than to post something of this nature WITHOUT a reliable PRINTED source to back it up.

Who the hell do you think you are?

Check his posting count and respect rating, Then check yours.

Then mosey on over to a.net rules.

I heard USAirways is going out of business in a one-on-one conversation with someone.

BWI757
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!