glidepath73
Posts: 921
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:15 pm

Hi all!

I've found this article at "Rheinische Post" this morning. It says, SWISS suspended 52 pilots, cause they wrote an open letter, concerning security in the Saab 2000 cockpits.

Does anybody know what's the problem with the Saab 2000 cockpit?

Sorry, it's only German:


Basel (rpo). Nachdem am Freitag ein offener Brief von Piloten der Swiss wegen angeblicher Sicherheitsproblem veröffentlich wurde, hat die Fluggesellschaft jetzt reagiert und 52 ihrer 72-Saab-Piloten mit sofortiger Wirkung vom Dienst suspendiert.
Gleichzeitig wurde gegen sie ein Disziplinarverfahren eingeleitet, wie die Airline in der Nacht zum Dienstag bekannt gab. Die Swiss reagierte damit auf einen offenen Brief eines Teils der Saab-Piloten vom vergangenen Freitag, in dem von Sicherheitsproblemen im Cockpit die Rede gewesen war.

Die Swiss erklärte, sie nehme die Aussagen der Piloten ernst. Die Sicherheit der Saab-Flüge ab Basel sei aber zu jeder Zeit gewährleistet. Nach eingehender Analyse habe sich die Swiss dennoch entschlossen, die Flugtauglichkeit jener Piloten durch Experten zu überprüfen, die den Brief unterschrieben hätten.

52 Piloten wurden deshalb mit sofortiger Wirkung vorübergehend vom Dienst suspendiert. Nach einer positiven Beurteilung sollen sie wieder in den Dienst integriert werden.

Weiter wurden gegen die betroffenen Piloten Disziplinarverfahren eingeleitet. Eine Delegation der Geschäftsleitung will zudem den Dialog mit den Piloten fortsetzen.

Die Swiss operiert ab Basel mit einer Flotte von sieben Saab-2000-Flugzeugen und beschäftigt dafür 72 Piloten. In Zürich und Genf werden keine Saab-2000-Maschinen eingesetzt. Die Airline will die Auswirkungen der Maßnahmen auf den Flugbetrieb so gering wie möglich halten.
Aviation! That rocks...
 
PM
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:38 pm

There's no problem with the SAAB 2000. The problem is the pilots' state of mind. The future of the fleet is in doubt and the pilots haven't been told if they will keep their jobs or not. So 52 of the 72 pilots have signed an open letter saying that this insecurity is a potential safety hazard. (If you can't sleep at night because you're worried about the future you may not be in a fit state to fly tomorrow morning.) They want a decision - one way or the other - to be made quickly.

The company's reaction has been to say that if these 52 pilots have concerns that they may not be safe then they had better be suspended and checked out on simulators so that their competence can be established. Meanwhile, they are being disciplined for making their letter public.

As far as I know, LX have ten or a dozen SAAB 2000s still flying for them. (Others are leased out.) Will this suspension have much of an impact on services?

There's more (auf Deutsch!) here:

http://www.nzz.ch/index.html;jsessio...d=88E86D229BF8E3BB7419C0A781CF53EA
 
glidepath73
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:53 pm

Thanks for the information.

LX stated they will secure all the flight's from BSL. Maybe LX will hire more a/c from other airlines to do the flight's for them in the future. (As Cirrus and Denim Air is flying already for LX)

Regards,
Patrick
Aviation! That rocks...
 
PM
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:05 pm

It does seem that LX are still uncertain what to do below the A319. I honestly wonder if the new Embraers will ever arrive. The ERJ-145s and SAAB 2000s seem to be on the way out. What chance LX will top up their ARJ fleet?! Between LX and LH they have quite a few.
 
RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:08 pm

The whole thing stinks.

I know from various sources that LX decided to reduce services from BSL to PMI, VLC and to drop Naples (who cares anyway, we dont need them here). That was before the letter of the LX pilots. Now they have too many pilots and need a reason to lay them off. Once again LX is close to illegality.

@Patrick: LX did not confirm that they will secure flights out of BSL. They wanted to present a solution months ago but simply nothing happened. They have no idea what to do. Because they know that all the current routes out of BSL will get replaced in no time if they drop them. So they simply shut up so that their partners (airports), customers and staff cannot plan a damn thing.

Im flying with LX next Monday BSL-ZRH-CDG-ZRH-BSL. For the first time in my life I am not looking forward to board an aircraft. This far we have made it in Switzerland!  Sad

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
glidepath73
Posts: 921
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:56 pm

Yes it's not understandable that LX reduced the services in BSL almost into nothing.
Really a shame...
Aviation! That rocks...
 
gerardo
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:58 pm

Sorry RJ, but that's "this far you have it". I for one am glad, that LX suspends pilots which publicly say, they can't guarantee for the safety in the cockpit.

As I replied already in Flighforum: I imagine myself, what my boss would do, if I tell him, I don't feel fit for my job anymore.

In my opinion, the LX management handled it 100% correctly. The pilots write to the management, that they don't feel 100% fit for their job and that the security in the cockpit is at a risk, due to the actual situation. What do you expect? What would passengers expect? What do the different regulations say about this? I thought "Safety first" was top priority.

I guess, if the LX managment had done nothing after that letter, you would probably come up pointing with fingers at them for letting them fly and putting security at a risk.  Yeah sure

I reckon, the situation for the Saab pilots is a bad one, but nevertheless, threatening with security problems was dumb.

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:03 pm

Of course it was an own goal. Because LX is too stupid to realize what the letter means.

Promising to present an option for the pilots and then simply shut up is not an elegant way.

In my opinion the letter was wrong-completely agree- they should have gone on strike instead. Or they should do it- from now on until late October.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:17 pm

So far 6 flights to/from BSL are cancelled. People rebooked or stranded. Very good since a lot of passengers will be pleased with the LH Cityline service (a lot of people rebooked to and via MUC).

Seems like SWISS (what a name...) gives themselves completely up in BSL. But since they dont need customers it's no problem. They only need arrogance and false pride. Can you believe that they have (already before the pilot problems) grounded 3 Saabs during the high season? Why not flying to some nice summer destinations? Oh yeah, it could turn out to be a profit so they dont do it.

They have nothing to do in aviation business. If your Saab costs 4900 Euros per flying hour while others charge 3000 Euros (profit included) for a MD-90 then maybe you should leave the business to the people who understand their work.

RJ100
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airmale
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:22 pm

RJ100, why worry if passengers from BSL take LH or LX???? The revenue goes all in the same pocket. LH & LX are one company. Why worry?
.....up there with the best!
 
RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:27 pm

I dont worry at all.  Smile

I hope that LX will leave BSL, we are way better off without them.
I am just upset how they treat everyone else, especially their staff, partner airports and customers.

But like I said before. Everything is past in autumn. SWISS exactly knows that most of the routes currently served out of BSL will get replaced. That's why they simply say nothing. If SWISS would be a football team, every single player would have been sent off by red cards due to foul play.  Wink

Regards,
RJ100
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airmale
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:41 pm

RJ100: for someone who doesn't worry at all, you make a hell of a lot of noise.
Relax. Have a drink. Cheers!!!!!
.....up there with the best!
 
RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:05 am

I dont worry if someone flies LH or LX. But I worry what happens with the former Crossair pilots and crews (the few still remaining).

Sometimes it is important to make noise. I contribute in a lot of forums (also here in Switzerland) and I get a lot of responses to my posts. I had the possibility to meet some very interesting people. Although afraid to contribute in the topics directly they contacted me and since then back me up with detailed information on the whole "case". I have all the necessary proof for what Im telling here (for instance about the EuroCross profitability, load factors that I make public etc.).

This is why Im getting upset, because many many people here write complete BS with no facts behind it. And in the end someone even has the courage to tell us down here in BSL we are the guilty ones for the mess.

I will follow your advice AirMale and will go for a cool drink now. Wish you a good one.  Smile

Regards,
RJ100
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RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:21 am

There will be at least 10 flights to/from BSL cancelled tomorrow.

Oh and according to some interviews LX still does not have a single clue about what happens with the Saab2000 pilots after October.

RJ100
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saab2000
Posts: 1216
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:51 pm

SWISS still exists???

Sorry, had to say it. I have been gone from MY airline for over 18 months now. Too bad, but I guess my opportunities have been pretty good in the US too.

There will be a pilot shortage in Switzerland. SWISS is burning their bridges.

One word to the German speakers here. Sicherheit translated to English is not only "Security". It is also "Safety". I think that the article referred to safety rather than security. Just trying to help out. Not trying to step on anyone's toes here...... Big grin

I am sad to hear that this fiasco situation is still going on over there. I refuse to say anymore who is right and who is wrong. Everyone here knows my opinion, but I am somewhat disappointed in my colleagues' mentality. But I am also disappointed in SWISS and their "leadership". Too bad this Kindergarten mentality still exists over there.

I think it is absolutely scandalous that SWISS cannot make it work with the former Crossair people since Crossair used to do well on many of these routes. Crossair made a profit. Why is SWISS on ex-Crossair routes not???????????
smrtrthnu
 
ANITIX87
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:04 pm

One quick question. Will this affect my LCY-GVA flight or my ZRH-LHR flight in two weeks? I know SWISS flies both Saab2000's and Bae's into LCY, but I don't know which ones run the LCY-GVA route, and what aircraft is used on ZRH-LHR. I think it's an A320 but I'm not sure...

TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 
gerardo
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:24 am

I don't think so. AFAIK, only the BSL operations are affected, as the S2000 only fly from there.

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
MH017
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:28 am

Today, 12JUL05, the LX morning- and afternoonflights BSL-AMS were operated by a Dash8-300 D-BOBU, so they operate but with wetleased equipment and crew
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
sllevin
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:06 am

Companies have to be very careful.

Can you imagine if a Saab2000 had crashed after that letter was sent? Even in Europe, it would open SWISS up to massive damages, and be portrayed in a terrible light ("they flew even though the pilots had warned them...")

SWISS had no choice. If I was a manager there and got a letter like that, I'd have done the same thing.

Steve
 
SWISSER
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 12):
dont worry if someone flies LH or LX. But I worry what happens with the former Crossair pilots and crews (the few still remaining).

If those former pilots reacted with a bit more professionalism of the situation there in right now, these things could be avoided...
Now they make it themeselves only more complicated if they want to keep there job in the cockpit, we are not in the mid 90's anymore...

I suppose you are still not over the fact that the SR group went bankrupt?

I still hope you remembered what happened here in Belgium?
460 pilots got fired in a minute and never be hired again...
So get over it...

Also consider if LX decides too completely whitdraw service at BSL,
who would volture this great airport?
Yes, the LCC, if this actually happens, it will become very difficult for traditional carriers to operate there and BSL will probably evolve in a point to point airport like Luton or Hahn without any connection possibility...So traditional customers today of BSL will simply dissapear...

[Edited 2005-07-13 23:31:40]
What time is top of descent?
 
RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:59 am

Hi SWISSER

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
If those former pilots reacted with a bit more professionalism of the situation there in right now, these things could be avoided...

So in your opinion if the pilots did nothing they could keep the jobs? Probably not...

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
I suppose you are still not over the fact that the SR group went bankrupt?

Crossair had the perfect product for the Swiss market. When SAir got busted, Crossair could have taken over the routes out of ZRH, formerly operated by Swissair. That means instead of flying A-321s to places to pick up low yielded transfer passengers, they could have concentrated on high frequency Embraer-145 or RJ100 services on these routes (with a higher yield due to point-to-point passengers). Plus, they could have taken over some longhaul routes (but only where a home market exists).
But no, Crossair was forced to take over the Swissair fleet (Swissair's flight operations were loss making too since years...). They were forced to take over something that did not work in the past (and could not work this time because after 9-11 the circumstances were even worse in the flying business). It was an economical suicide! So after some months they realized: Our hub in ZRH is too big, let's close the hub in BSL (which was profitmaking in the Crossair times). The passengers will simply go to ZRH to fill the planes. It was a mistake since other carriers are now taking away these passengers.

And now we have some Saabs left who need to take a big part of the longhaul fleets cost which results in losses so they cut the rest too.

Sorry guys if I cannot forget this! I am very sorry! Because it is simply unfair. Yes, and now call me a localist, a past-lover, a whiner, a frustrated whatever...but you cannot change that it was unfair and will be unfair forever!

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
I still hope you remembered what happened here in Belgium?
460 pilots got fired in a minute and never be hired again...
So get over it...

Yes this is sad and I have always felt with everyone who has lost its job. But the case is different. SN and SR were financially in a bad shape while Crossair was a healthy company.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
Also consider if LX decides too completely whitdraw service at BSL,
who would volture this great airport?
Yes, the LCC, if this actually happens, it will become very difficult for traditional carriers to operate there and BSL will probably evolve in a point to point airport like Luton or Hahn without any connection possibility...So traditional customers today of BSL will simply dissapear...

There will be more LCCs in BSL soon. But BSL traditionally has a lot of good paying customers, there will be always carriers such as LH, AF, SK, OS, BA. No, we dont need SWISS here, the day they will give up AMS, KL will step in the next day, once they give up MAN bmi will step in, probably with a even higher flight frequency. And so on and so on...
You simply cannot compare BSL to Luton or Hahn since Hahn does not have its own potential while BSL has its local passengers.

Best regards,
RJ100
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ZRH
Posts: 4371
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 20):
No, we dont need SWISS here, the day they will give up AMS, KL will step in the next day,

There is a big difference whether Swiss or KLM flies BSL to AMS (this is only an example, it could also be BA to London or LH to FRA etc.). For Swiss it is a point to point flight for which they need every day a full aircraft with high yield passengers, that it can be run economically. For KLM it is not so important what kind of passengers they have (and how many) because the flight serves their hub for the long-haul flights (the flight even could make loss and still stay worth for KLM). IMO there are only two economical possibilities (in our days) to serve a secondary airport like BSL: either you are a legacy carrier and you feed your hub or you are a LCC and can fly point to point. The problem of Swiss is that their hub is too close to Basel. Even big airlines like AF, LH, BA etc. mostly fly to their hubs and much less point to point flights. For example in the more than ten times bigger country Germany, LH has only two hubs (FRA and MUC), for this I can not see having Swiss in our tiny country more than one within 100 km. LH mainly flies from other German cities to FRA and MUC and almost not between HAM and TXL or DUS and HAM etc. Or, other example, in France almost everything runs over Paris (try to find a AF flight between Marseille and Lyon). There also the LCCs rule. Don't worry when Swiss sees the possibility to earn any Franc on a flight out of Basel they will do it. It is only a matter of calculation and not of emotions or politics (they need every Franc)   . BTW I read somewhere that the decision about the BSL flights now highly depends on LH. For that ask Mr Mayrhuber and not anymore Mr Franz.

[Edited 2005-07-14 01:47:43]
[Edited 2005-07-14 01:54:55]

[Edited 2005-07-14 01:55:49]

[Edited 2005-07-14 01:56:51]

[Edited 2005-07-14 02:00:43]
 
saab2000
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:37 am

I stand with RJ100.

The Saab pilots maybe could have done things differently, but the management of SWISS has been a joke since day 1.

I miss my job there, but I sure don't miss the stupid internal politics.

I know a bunch of those dudes, having flown the SB-20 for 2 years at SWISS. There is not really a safety risk and they should not say that there is one. It implies a threat and the company had no choice.

But the company cannot be held blameless either. It is a stupid situation and I feel sorry for the Swiss people who still have to live with that crap in Blick every day.

Glad I work in the US now. Working for a regional here involves at least a bit more respect and future than in Europe. We are losing pilots from my company to Continental, JetBlue, Southwest, AirTran, FedEx, UPS, etc. I have my papers in at most of those, even though I would rather return to Europe to fly. That stupid "regional/mainline" mentality over there is what has led to this situation.
smrtrthnu
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:34 pm

Hi ZRH

First thing that I want to say is that I respect you as a fair discussion partner, which is actually unique since in other forums the discussion runs out of control very fast.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 21):
There is a big difference whether Swiss or KLM flies BSL to AMS (this is only an example, it could also be BA to London or LH to FRA etc.). For Swiss it is a point to point flight for which they need every day a full aircraft with high yield passengers, that it can be run economically.

Swiss has these high yield passengers. Just look on load factors. The routes are not doing that bad out of BSL and as a frequent flyer I can witness it by my own eyes. The fact remains: SWISS cannot operate a Saab2000 sucesfully even if they have a 100% load, simply because they have too many overhead costs (from the longhaul fleet). And once again, something must be wrong with them if they need to charge you 4900 Euros for a Saab2000 flying hour while others can give you a MD-90 for 3000 Euros/hour (profit included). That said, if you dont have a fixed cost problem, a Saab2000 flying hour costs you definitely less than 3000 Euros. Let's assume that a flying hour would cost you 2000 Euros (it's probably less!) then it's simply unbelievable that they cannot operate on point to point routes where they have good paying passengers-and a lot of them! Make a calculation: BSL-AMS-BSL would brake even with a handful of good paying passengers. Now, remember the times when Crossair was flying around 100 business men from LCY to BSL, imagine this revenue and imagine the profit. Funny that LX dropped this route soon after they have started. Crossir always made money with it's own operations. And do you want to know what? They were losing money with the wet-lease contracts to Swissair.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 21):
(the flight even could make loss and still stay worth for KLM)

Yes, even better if they make a profit then, which most of the carriers have with the routes out of BSL. Again, Basel is not a hillbilly town. If you think that Lufthansa makes a loss with the 48 business pax they have on every flight to FRA then you are simply wrong.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 21):
Even big airlines like AF, LH, BA etc. mostly fly to their hubs and much less point to point flights. For example in the more than ten times bigger country Germany, LH has only two hubs (FRA and MUC), for this I can not see having Swiss in our tiny country more than one within 100 km. LH mainly flies from other German cities to FRA and MUC and almost not between HAM and TXL or DUS and HAM etc. Or, other example, in France almost everything runs over Paris (try to find a AF flight between Marseille and Lyon).

In the more than ten times bigger country Germany, they dont have much more longhaul planes than in ZRH. So according to your logic, LX needs drastically reduce it's longhaul fleet out of ZRH...

Regards,
RJ100
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HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:41 pm

Hi RJ100,

I have been following your posts for quite a while now and found them nicely enthusiastic and worth reading.
Even though I feel kind of the same way for the former LX pilots as you do, namely sorry, I think you are very unbalancedly bias to BSL and you seem to completely overlook the fact that Swiss have finally found its track (even though not focusing on BSL) and please not only passengers but also the media again.

Times have changed: it is not the 1990s anymore, a concept like Crossair then developed would not work anymore - with the times prices, concepts and travelling habits have thoroughly altered.
Just one eg:
Too many Britons once praising LX and Euroairport have found themselves onboard of Ryanairs and Easyjets when travelling southwards.
Weren't you exhilarated when EZY opened a new base at BSL?
In German one says: "Des einen Leid, des anderen Freud" (roughly translated by one's pity, is another's pleasure).

When you mention the high operating costs of Swiss' Saabs and compare them to Hello's MD-90s - you compare apples to oranges.

As ZRH states: If Swiss makes money out of BSL, they will continuously serve BSL, otherwise days are numbered, politics, now under LH leadership, do not count any longer.


Quoting RJ100

In the more than ten times bigger country Germany, they dont have much more longhaul planes than in ZRH. So according to your logic, LX needs drastically reduce it's longhaul fleet out of ZRH...

Am I mistaken or aren't exactly Swiss' long haul operations profitable while the European routes struggle ?
Look: Swiss have 9 A330s and 9 A340s...LH 30 747-400s, 40 A340s, 10 A330s...
Singapore has a population of 4 million, but SQ have 30+ 747-400s, endless 777, some A340-500s...
Indonesia has 210 million, GA 4 747-400, 5 DC-10s and 6 A330...
again apples and oranges - higher populated countries do not necessarily generate more long haul planes. It's something else that creates the need for widebodies.

Quoting RJ100:

Basel is not a hillbilly town. If you think that Lufthansa makes a loss with the 48 business pax they have on every flight to FRA then you are simply wrong.

Show me the 737-500 (or Avro RJ 85) that carries 48 paying biz pax.

The thing is, I absolutely share your passion for aviation and I am also moved by what is going on right now, but I think your dubious numbers are rather a sign for blind anger than cool mind.


By the way: I would never bash Basel, I even think that Zurich needs Basel - be it aviation- football - or art-wise.

Cheers and calm down a bit.

HBIHL
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
ZRH
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
Basel is not a hillbilly town.

I never said, that Basel is a hillbilly town  Wink . I know that there is big business (pharma etc.). But that is not only the point. Look for example at Düsseldorf. This is a city within the Ruhrgebiet with huge industry and major companies or Stuttgart (with Daimler Chrysler and others). Both cities have mainly legacy flights to FRA and point to point by LCCs (DUS an only business long-haul to EWR, perhaps also a good idea for Basel). I think in the last few years things changed a lot, since the "golden days" of Crossair. I see the development in the European air traffic that the legacy carriers concentrate more and more on their hubs to feed the long-haul flights and the LCCs will take over most point to point flights from and to non-hub airports. The legacy carriers will have some long-haul flights from non-hub airports (for example TXL-JFK, GVA-JFK, perhaps BSL-EWR etc.).

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 23):
So according to your logic, LX needs drastically reduce it's longhaul fleet out of ZRH...

I am not sure. I think either Swiss has only two or three long-haul flights (to JFK, SIN, NRT for example) or it has a critical size and offers flights on most important routes. This is a matter of business decision, which LH will do in the next few years. Interestingly LH mentioned that they even want to add two more long-haul frames in Zurich (if it will become true we'll see in a few years). An interesting example is Austrian. Only a few years ago they had perhaps 3 to 5 long-haul aircrafts, now they have almost the same amount as Swiss. At moment the long-haul routes at Swiss are working quite well, the load factors in June were 87.2%.
 
RJ100
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LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:56 pm

HB-IHL and ZRH

I am actually not biassed on BSL. Honestly I think that BSL and ZRH (and all the towns between them) have a unique potential, not only aviation related. I am one of the "few" ones who is living the idea of a deep partnership between those two regions. This is why it makes me kind of sad if people call me a Zurich hater or whatever. It is simply not true.

But I disagree on SWISS. It's simple as that. And it has nothing to do with a "war between regions".

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 24):
Times have changed: it is not the 1990s anymore, a concept like Crossair then developed would not work anymore - with the times prices, concepts and travelling habits have thoroughly altered.

The Crossair concept would work now better than ever. Because they would fly on routes that have either a home market, let's say Zurich to Paris on a RJ100- or have high yield connecting passengers, for instance Nuremberg-Basel-Bilbao. There is no direct flight between NUE and Bilbao, not even a LCC. This is why people who need to travel between these cities are ready to pay a lot of money. This behaviour hasn't changed.
It is the opposite from the hub in ZRH because ZRH does not have a special route network. The flights cannot be filled with local passengers and transfer passengers only go via ZRH if the price is low enough.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 24):
Weren't you exhilarated when EZY opened a new base at BSL?

Of course I was happy. Because easyJet is clever, they do good marketing (a thing that LX never did in BSL), they do researches. In fact they show how you can sucesfully operate in the BSL market while SWISS is whining all the time. And I dont think that easyJet would have been a competition to Crossair due to the reasons I have mentioned above.



Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 24):
When you mention the high operating costs of Swiss' Saabs and compare them to Hello's MD-90s - you compare apples to oranges.

Of course I do!  Wink It is what I have explained many times. SWISS could have a much lower cost base. But since they need to operate a longhaul fleet, a low cost base is not possible. And I need to ask the question again: Is it fair to save the Swissair jobs if you know that due to that the Crossair jobs get lost? No, it is not!

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 24):
As ZRH states: If Swiss makes money out of BSL, they will continuously serve BSL, otherwise days are numbered, politics, now under LH leadership, do not count any longer.

I think we have another misunderstanding there. I think that SWISS loses money in BSL, there is no doubt. But it is due to the problematic that I have explained above. If you have Saab2000 costs of nearly 5000 Euros per hour then everything is loss making.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 24):
Am I mistaken or aren't exactly Swiss' long haul operations profitable while the European routes struggle ?
Look: Swiss have 9 A330s and 9 A340s...LH 30 747-400s, 40 A340s, 10 A330s...
Singapore has a population of 4 million, but SQ have 30+ 747-400s, endless 777, some A340-500s...
Indonesia has 210 million, GA 4 747-400, 5 DC-10s and 6 A330...
again apples and oranges - higher populated countries do not necessarily generate more long haul planes. It's something else that creates the need for widebodies.

I agree. My answer had a rather sarcastic meaning.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 24):
Show me the 737-500 (or Avro RJ 85) that carries 48 paying biz pax.

As far as I know LH can switch the size of business class on their 737s.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 25):
I know that there is big business (pharma etc.).

And much more than just pharma...or does Zurich only have a few banks?  Wink

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 25):
This is a city within the Ruhrgebiet with huge industry and major companies or Stuttgart (with Daimler Chrysler and others). Both cities have mainly legacy flights to FRA and point to point by LCCs (DUS an only business long-haul to EWR, perhaps also a good idea for Basel). I think in the last few years things changed a lot, since the "golden days" of Crossair. I see the development in the European air traffic that the legacy carriers concentrate more and more on their hubs to feed the long-haul flights and the LCCs will take over most point to point flights from and to non-hub airports. The legacy carriers will have some long-haul flights from non-hub airports (for example TXL-JFK, GVA-JFK, perhaps BSL-EWR etc.).

Maybe you are right. But it is pure speculation. I simply do not agree that Crossair did not get a chance to show how they would have done after 2001. If someone wants to operate like you say, ok. If someone wants to operate longhaul flights, please do so. BUT: Pay it on your own. They should have left Crossair and should have founded a new company.

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 25):
Only a few years ago they had perhaps 3 to 5 long-haul aircrafts, now they have almost the same amount as Swiss.

Yes, and they have increasing losses too...

Quoting ZRH" class=quote target=_blank>ZRH (Reply 25):
At moment the long-haul routes at Swiss are working quite well, the load factors in June were 87.2%.

You know me too well that I do not accept a simple load factor number as a prove of profitability, don't you?  Wink

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:50 pm

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:14 am

Hey RJ100,

well, as said before, I like your enthusiasm and you certainly contributed to my understanding of the not-so-nice things that happen(ed) in BSL.

For people from around ZRH only few things really changed (for somebody not involved in aviation) - I am not sure whether people can see that there is less traffic. One can still travel frequently on Swiss airplanes (well, on the very same ones as before day X) to the major gateways. It is a completely different situation than in BSL. If I were from BSL I would certainly be less enthusiastic.

I must confess that I do not see behind Swiss' and Swissair's as well as Crossair's financial operations - what really caused what and so on. There are just too many voices that are often quite contrary.

One question, though, isn't it a fact that in the last five years regional traffic did not grow at all?


As a passenger I must say I love Swiss (and ZRH), it is convenient, comfortable and the crews are still amazingly friendly. I can find the truth in Swiss's slogan - You look great - did you fly Swiss? (well, Saab pilots certainly think different about it)

I fly to the UK and Germany several times a year and I have just found the perfect solution for myself: Swiss - fares are great if you book in advance and you fly to real airports (I mean major airports - BSL itself is a major airport, too, of course - it is not Geneva north or Züri West -)) and , what I wanted to say is, that when one only sees Swiss in ZRH one can only praise the airline. But it's not the whole picture, I know.

Something else: Last year I flew THF - BSL (just to enjoy the historic airfield in Berlin and the coolness of the Saab) in HB-IYF still in old LX livery with small operated by Crossair Europe-titles. Will this airline be dissolved? Weren't there once plans that they could take over some planes (how many Saabs are still flying and how many are stored at BSL?) , bringing old happy Crossair days back to life?

Anyway, let's hope the best for the former Crossair pilots...

cheers
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
irishjohn
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:30 pm

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:23 am

RJ100

When was CROSSAIR profitable? Unless I am mistaken it required major funding from SWISSAIR, almost annually! What made SWISS possible was the simple fact that CROSSAIR was a stand alone company and could therefore be used immediately to salvage Swiss pride and aviation!!

Of course I could be wrong?

Safe sailing
John
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 27):
One question, though, isn't it a fact that in the last five years regional traffic did not grow at all?

I don't have figures on that, but my bet is that both longhaul traffic and regional traffic were having troubles in the last few years, leaving only the LCC business in the growth. But as I said, I do not have figures on that and maybe I am wrong.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 27):
As a passenger I must say I love Swiss (and ZRH), it is convenient, comfortable and the crews are still amazingly friendly.

Yes, and I never doubted that LX crews are great. They are great. No matter if they are former SR or former Crossair crews. Even though criticising SWISS, I have travelled them many times recently (and I am currently booked on 6 additional LX flights, next flights on Monday!). It is unbelievable that the Saab crews still manage to smile at you, and the good thing is: Their smile is honest. Another reason why I cannot understand some of the decisions of the board.

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 27):
I can find the truth in Swiss's slogan - You look great - did you fly Swiss?

Yes, the slogan might work in ZRH. I hope you can understand that this slogan is misplaced in the BSL arrival hall... You look great! Did you fly on SWISS? What? SWISS is flying here???  Wink Then you proceed to the bus terminal and you see a bus with huge titles: "I'll take you to your SWISS flight". No thanks, I'm flying easyJet Big grin And if you leave the bus near Basel's main train station you see the former Crossair/Swissair city office. It is now a cheap booze store...

Quoting HBIHLtoEZE (Reply 27):
Something else: Last year I flew THF - BSL (just to enjoy the historic airfield in Berlin and the coolness of the Saab) in HB-IYF still in old LX livery with small operated by Crossair Europe-titles. Will this airline be dissolved? Weren't there once plans that they could take over some planes (how many Saabs are still flying and how many are stored at BSL?) , bringing old happy Crossair days back to life?

Crossair Europe was closed just recently. They were having the cost base necessary to operate the BSL routes sucessfully. And Crossair Europe was having profits too (until SWISS decided to double the maintenance cost this year...). Another strange decision, because Crossair Europe could have saved many jobs.

A lot of things will happen in the future. The Saabs will be quite cheap to buy and I know from various sources that there are many projects in the region. One of them is me who is currently doing a few researches, building up connections in the aviation industry and who is working on a business plan. The plan is to start with two regional planes in about 3-4 years when everything cooled down and I have finished my studies. It's a long way to go and if it does not work then I have had a dream- a good dream which was worth to dream it. So we all just wait on LX's decision what their future will be in BSL.

Best regards,
RJ100
none
 
HBIHLtoEZE
Posts: 247
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:50 pm

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:28 am

Hey RJ100,

thank you for your quick response.

I was thrilled when Suter brought back the Douglas era with the MD-90s, and I would love it to see more Saabs on Swiss skies - thumbs up for your project.

best regards,

HBIHL
Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:39 am

HB-IHL: Thanks man. I am realistic enough to know that it is a long way and hard work. The whole thing is in a very early stage but I am enough self confident to give it a try.

@Irishjohn: Now when was Crossair profitable?

1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1980-1999.

1993: + 24.1 mio CHF
1994: + 16.1 mio CHF
1995: + 17.4 mio CHF
1996: + 23.9 mio CHF
1997: + 43.1 mio CHF
1998: + 63.5 mio CHF
1999: + 50.7 mio CHF

They had losses in 1979 (-292 400 CHF) and 2000 (-28.3 mio CHF).

So as you can see, a healthy company.

Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 28):
Unless I am mistaken it required major funding from SWISSAIR, almost annually!

This is a myth that you can read a lot of time, mainly spreaded by the jealous people who cannot accept that Crossair was a profitable company. To tell you the truth, Crossair was losing money with the Swissair contracts. Over the peroid from 1993 until 1999 the Swissair contracts resultet in a loss of 8.391 mio. CHF for Crossair. Crossair always made the money with it's own operations. Add to that that Swissair refused and delayed payments to Crossair all the time.

 Sad

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:34 pm

Bring back Moritz Suter...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:40 pm

He is already back:  Wink

www.hello.ch

Awaiting a fourth aircraft and flying already in the black numbers.

Best regards,
RJ100
none
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 26):
They should have left Crossair and should have founded a new company



Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 28):
When was CROSSAIR profitable? Unless I am mistaken it required major funding from SWISSAIR, almost annually!

I also think the so called Crossair success is a little bit a fairy tale. Why would Moritz Suter have sold "his baby" to Swissair (actually he did not like Swissair at all), if they were really profitable? The fact is that they desperately needed the money from Swissair. Bad luck was that Swissair had a so incompetent management (and perhaps criminal?? I hate Bruggisser really). It is really a pity.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:40 am

Hey ZRH, you dont care about the figures I have posted above do you? I can do whatever is possible and I simply get the answer it is not so. It's really amazing.

Again, the Swissair contracts were a money losing business for Crossair. They have only earned money with that in 1997 and 1998 (+554 000 CHF/+1.252 mio CHF) while they were losing money in 1993 (-4.373 mio CHF), 1994 (-3.171 mio CHF), 1995 (-121 000 CHF), 1996 (-23 000 CHF) and 1999 (-2.509 mio CHF) which is resulting in a loss of 8.391 mio CHF in total.

I remember that you have always said that Crossair was only earning money because they were flying for Swissair. It is obviously not the case.
And now you simply say they needed desperatly money from them. Add the profits I have listed above and you need to confess that Crossair absolutely was in a fine condition (apart from that they had always a good rating in case they needed credits).

And Crossair needed to sell its shares to Swissair because they needed traffic rights. Swissair never accepted competition in the regulated market. They wanted to have traffic rights for routes they could not even serve (like ZRH-NUE). After a long political debate Crossair got the permission to serve these routes, but they needed to sell its shares to Swissair so that they could control them.

Like I have said above, I don't fear the discussion since I am very well documented. But PLEASE: Stop with accusations if you don't have the necessary facts to prove it.

Regards,
RJ100
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SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:30 am

Hi RJ100!!

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 20):
Crossair had the perfect product for the Swiss market. When SAir got busted, Crossair could have taken over the routes out of ZRH, formerly operated by Swissair. That means instead of flying A-321s to places to pick up low yielded transfer passengers, they could have concentrated on high frequency Embraer-145 or RJ100 services on these routes (with a higher yield due to point-to-point passengers). Plus, they could have taken over some longhaul routes (but only where a home market exists).
But no, Crossair was forced to take over the Swissair fleet (Swissair's flight operations were loss making too since years...). They were forced to take over something that did not work in the past (and could not work this time because after 9-11 the circumstances were even worse in the flying business). It was an economical suicide! So after some months they realized: Our hub in ZRH is too big, let's close the hub in BSL (which was profitmaking in the Crossair times). The passengers will simply go to ZRH to fill the planes. It was a mistake since other carriers are now taking away these passengers.

It would have been an alternative option and possibly good at first looks, but,

You probably would have a situation like SN brussels Airlines right now,
Crossair/SWISS and DAT/SN brussels looked quite the same in the SR/SN times, off course DAT flew in SN colors but still was a company on it's own that made profit.

Nowadays SNBA does fly RJ85 RJ100 that where from the only survivor of SN, DAT, and they immidiatly dropped the entire SN fleet in 2001;
*A340 A330->gone
*A32S->gone
*VLM jumped from antwerps to BRU immidiatly
*no US market anymore
*no Asian market anymore
*no good african market anymore

today BRU is voltured by US carriers who consume the now long died market for a Belgian carrier and "our employees"(460 pilots)
Carriers from the far east are starting activities at BRU again at the cost of possible Belgian employees who could do the job...

Off course SNBA makes profit, but is not in a situation to grow anymore now
due to the lack off "b*lls"...
I would have hated this sitution have happened to Crossair/Swiss and the employees of SWISS.

BTW visit our VA at www.swiss-va.com !
We could use some very sceptic people here who can help us!
What time is top of descent?
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 20):
Quoting SWISSER (Reply 19):
If those former pilots reacted with a bit more professionalism of the situation there in right now, these things could be avoided...

So in your opinion if the pilots did nothing they could keep the jobs? Probably not...

No off course not, my motto is always Crew first, but off course this is sadly not the reality...look what happened to the SN crews...Saab 2000 is a fantastic aircraft BTW!

only they needed to adress there concerns more private to the management,
how bad a management is, they still pay you...

I'am planning to go to CH soon with a friend and I'am defenitly going now over BSL just for the fact those guys certainly need to be treated with more future prospects on them,and I always fly full fare Business  Wink...
What time is top of descent?
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 25):
I am not sure. I think either Swiss has only two or three long-haul flights (to JFK, SIN, NRT for example) or it has a critical size and offers flights on most important routes. This is a matter of business decision, which LH will do in the next few years. Interestingly LH mentioned that they even want to add two more long-haul frames in Zurich (if it will become true we'll see in a few years).

well let us say the options with Airbus are still pending for 3 more A343E's and i even hear some rumours around A345 for Oceania ops...  
(whoops I say much...)

remember guys, the Long Haul market is LX's biggest money maker!

[Edited 2005-07-16 04:08:41]
What time is top of descent?
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:56 am

Quoting Irishjohn (Reply 28):
RJ100

When was CROSSAIR profitable? Unless I am mistaken it required major funding from SWISSAIR, almost annually! What made SWISS possible was the simple fact that CROSSAIR was a stand alone company and could therefore be used immediately to salvage Swiss pride and aviation!!

Of course I could be wrong?

Safe sailing
John

so wrong pall, Crossair was a jewel from the day they started!
even still in 2000 many aviation enthousiast called it "the Swiss masterpiece"!

[Edited 2005-07-16 03:57:01]
What time is top of descent?
 
SWISSER
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:31 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:13 am

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 29):
A lot of things will happen in the future. The Saabs will be quite cheap to buy and I know from various sources that there are many projects in the region. One of them is me who is currently doing a few researches, building up connections in the aviation industry and who is working on a business plan. The plan is to start with two regional planes in about 3-4 years when everything cooled down and I have finished my studies. It's a long way to go and if it does not work then I have had a dream- a good dream which was worth to dream it. So we all just wait on LX's decision what their future will be in BSL.

Best regards,
RJ100

hey! if you need someone for inflight product if you proceed with something!
 
(look at my profile if you need references!)
BTW my company is already there at BSL, so you got yourself a nice handler "connection"  Wink

[Edited 2005-07-16 04:15:32]
What time is top of descent?
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:17 pm

Thanks for your coments SWISSER. We dont know what would have happened with Crossair after 2001 so it is pure speculation. But at least they would have been able to operate on the point to point routes ex ZRH, BSL, GVA and maybe even LUG and BRN. That means there would be many more jobs than today since it is only a matter of time until Lufthansa will cut many jobs here in Switzerland (the Saab pilots are the first ones followed by most of the administration staff in the next 2 years or so).

As for my project, it's really only in the first stage. We (me and a friend who becomes an economist soon) simply will add all the cost factors. That means a lot of phoning around etc. If we realize that operations will make sense then we will write down a paper. It's a long way to go though.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 40):
BTW my company is already there at BSL, so you got yourself a nice handler "connection"

Are these the guys who forgot to bring hot water (for coffee, tea) onboard my Cimber Air flight (BSL-CPH) in February?  Wink Hehehe, just kidding.

Best regards and a good weekend to everyone.

Thomas
none
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:50 pm

Hi guys, I've joined this a little late. Going back to the open letter from the SAAB pilots, they were talking about route and job security, right? I.e. what's happening to the routes and whether or not the pilots have a future? They weren't talking cockpit safety or security, i.e. no-one's saying the SAABs are unsafe - there was just a misunderstanding of the translation of the letter near the start of the thread, right?
 
Matterhorn
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab

Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:03 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 29):
The plan is to start with two regional planes in about 3-4 years when everything cooled down and I have finished my studies

hey thomas, although i have a different opinion on the Crossair-Swissair desaster and these swissair-crossair wars will most likely never end, could you please be more precise on what you guys have planned? would love to get more infos about this, if possible.
if you are looking for an economist who already finished uni: here i am  bouncy 
Last Flight: BSL-AMS on EZY, Next Flight: ZRH-LHR on LX
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:55 pm

@David L: I was reading the letter. Honestly, the pilots were not really saying that there would be a risk. The letter is very long and included many things. SWISS only replied to the safety/security thing. It's the only thing they can give an answer to since they exactly know that the pilots are right on the other points of the letter. It is a clear "punishment" by SWISS.

@Materhorn: The Swissair-Crossair wars will end this autumn since SWISS managed to throw out all the Crossair people. So once autumn is over you guys will finally be released from my posts considering this topic.

Anyway, the concept of the project will be very easy. I have detailed information on Saab operation costs as well as customer behaviour in the BSL region. We know that HELLO operates a MD-90 for around 2000 Euros/hour. WE WILL BEAT THIS FIGURE WITH THE SAAB. And we know that there is a good amount of late booking passengers in the region. Since I have connections to both Syngenta and Novartis I know that they pay 1500 CHF for an economy ticket without thinking twice. Now you can make a calculation on your own: We will operate on a bunch of 1-1.5 hour routes. Break-even will be with less than 10 passengers...
The idea is to start with 2 aircraft in 3-4 years. Until then, me and my friend will both have finished our studies, until then we know what current SWISS routes have been replaced (and which not) and until then we know what the LCCs do in BSL.
There are a lot of details unclear at the moment. There are many possibilities. There's the idea to sell the first 40 seats for low cost prices while the last 10 seats are reserved for the late bookers (which pay 800-1500 CHF). And we don't know yet if we want to apply for our own AOC or if we should start with an ACMI operation.
We have already a name for the project but will keep it secret until we are registered as a company and until we have saved our brand (should happen this year).

Once we have a clear business plan I will open a topic on a.net since we need a lot of enthusiastic helpers (helping with livery, website, promotion etc.)

We also have an idea where to fly but again we will keep it secret for a while. The idea is to fly as much as possible. Aircraft one will make up to 5 rotations a day while aircraft two is probably flying 3 or 4 (depends on destinations).

In short: We want to achieve a low cost base and having an efficient flight operation (we don't earn money on the ground!). The idea is also to offer meals to every passengers (no matter how much he/she pays). It does not cost a lot. And if necessary I will buy ham and cheese in the supermarket every day and will make the sandwiches at home!

As for the money, we will not apply for a bank credit (because they rip you off). There is a lot of money in the BSL region and the aviation business is very emotional. I know people who spend millions to support the local ice hockey team. I'm sure we will get the money together sooner or later.

@SWISSER: Does Aviapartner have a fact sheet or so where I can get an idea on how much ground services cost? Would be very grateful for any help.

Again, it's an early stage and I'm realistic enough to know that it is a long and hard way.

If someone has good ideas or can help don't hesitate to contact me. e.mail is in my profile.

Best regards,
Thomas
none
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:03 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 44):
SWISS only replied to the safety/security thing

Sorry to interrupt the discussion of your project, which sounds interesting, but the pilots did make some mention of flight safety/security in the letter then?
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:13 pm

Here's the letter. I completely agree with it, funny though that SWISS does not give an answer to the points mentioned by the pilots (apart from the safety thing).

Open letter to the Board of Directors and Management of Swiss

We, the undersigned Saab pilots from Basle, hereby strongly protest against the further intentions of Swiss’s Management to lay off staff.

We, the Saab pilots, are extremely annoyed with a Board and a Management expecting us to fully maintain Swiss’s Basle operations – despite the fact it has submitted us a de facto dismissal months ago.

We can no longer bear superiors who are continuously and endlessly expecting us to act professionally in our cockpits but to set aside our daily frustrations at the company’s no-culture at the same time. Reality looks completely different: The number one topics in the cockpit are our anger and our fears about personal future ¬– topics which are constantly present and dominate our cockpit discussions!

We, the Saab pilots, can no longer accept the company’s Operational Safety Manager, as he seems to be adequate for «nice weather flights» only. If he took his work seriously and indeed cared about flight safety, then he would either do his best to terminate the current farce or – as the only alternative – he would resign.

We, the Saab pilots, no longer wish to receive company newsletters encouraging us to accept the situation before being laid off in autumn. One of the greatest annoyance are the continuous tales in these letters with the aim of keeping us quiet until we receive our dismissal! What we want are prospects for a positive future! According to the political mandate (i.e. a new Swiss airline based on Crossair’s economical structures), WE are Swiss! We demand work in our company and not a sum in compensation for the loss of our jobs!

We, the Saab pilots, request that any forthcoming risks of lay-offs finally be shared equally among both pilots groups (former Swissair/Crossair)! Furthermore, we demand that the agreement concluded with Board Member Bosch be put into practice consistently. In summer 2003 he urged us to agree to the dismissal of more than 50 percent of the former Crossair pilots by promising to apply the so-called zipper model (dismissals within the Swissair/Crossair pilots’ group proportional to their size) in the event of further dismissals. If Bosch cannot commit himself to his signature (the agreed course of action), we suggest that he puts his position in the Board at someone else’s disposal.

We, the Saab pilots, do not want to be abused as a form of pressure for the forthcoming negotiations regarding the new general contracts of employment. For months we have been told how unprofitable Swiss’s Basle operations are. Do WE now have to pay the price of the mismanagement caused by the Management and the Board of Directors?

We, the Saab pilots from Basle, clearly state the following: We will never accept to being disposed of that easily! Do the tax payers, who have already been cheated, finally have to pay for our unemployment money as well, in order to sell Swiss to Lufthansa even cheaper? We firmly request clear decisions from the Board of Directors and the Management – decisions that uncompromisingly reflect the written commitments made by Mr Bosch!

We are aware: It is extremely embarrassing that we have to use this kind of clear wording and have to sue our own company once more. It is a pity that Swiss’s management apparently only understands clear messages. We are simply no longer willing to accept this kind of unethical arrogance – an arrogance event trying to flout court decisions and legal contracts!

To date the undersigned are still employees of Swiss and wish to be treated and respected a such! Without any clear signals from your side, we shall make all efforts to lead Lufthansa to withdraw from the contract by claiming damages between ten and hundreds of millions Swiss Francs from Swiss.

WE THE SAAB PILOTS FROM BASLE ARE SWISS
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David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:28 pm

Thanks, RJ100 - I hope you didn't translate that yourself for my benefit!

So it's uncertainty about their future they're talking about. I can sympathise - it's difficult to do a job well if you think you're going to be kicked out soon. Obviously employees are obliged to show a degree of respect for their employers but there are limits.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:19 pm

You are welcome David.
The problem is that the pilots are not taken seriously by the management. Basically they are advised to "shut up" until they get layed off whenever the management wants.

At the same time the management does not keep their promises, they break working contracts every day and risk to get sued. And if you sue them you get laid off.

I can only repeat myself: You need to be very disrespectful, cruel and criminal to bring a such an efficient and profitable company to death just because of the interest of a few people.

Regards,
RJ100
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Matterhorn
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:29 pm

RE: LX Suspends 52 Pilots - Security Concerns Saab 2000

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:35 pm

wow, RJ100, it looks that you guys taking it really seriously. i think that our country needs more people with visions, who try to succeed with risky projects...
i wish you all the best for the project, although i see many questionmarks (a lot probalby due to not having any nearer insight into the project). especially from a finance perspective it looks impossible to me to raise the required funds (as aviation is veery capital intensive) unless you have real good contacts (friends, venture capitals etc.).
and to set up a whole organizatiion with hundreds of people... wow, this will demand a lot of you...

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 44):
. I know people who spend millions to support the local ice hockey team

you probably mean rudolf maag from straumann. i agree with you that local aviatin is very emotionanl (view our discussions!!), but i see a lot of differences in sport and aviation as owning a sport club is rather a hobby than business.

anyway, if you have more publictly available material, i would be glad if you would post/email ths stuff.

by the way, have you been active in a recent post in flightforum.ch, in which a similar topic about starting-up an aviation company was discussed?
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