PVD757
Topic Author
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NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:32 am

Looks like NW applied with the DOT for exemptions on the following routes:

DTW-MZT
DTW-ZIH
MEM-CZM
MEM-PVR
MEM-SJD
MSP-ZLO

and ready for this one....

OMA-CUN

US-Mexico routes are hotter than a summer day in Death valley!
 
juventus
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:37 am

WOW. Omaha- Cancun? Cancun is a hot place for business, but Omaha? Anyway, good news, hope they get them.
 
Blackhawk144
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:41 am

Omaha really surprises me, is there even enough people to justify the routes?

Anthony
Time is the best of all teachers. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students!
 
panam330
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:41 am

I have to say that MEM-SJD surprises me much much more than OMA-CUN. Excellent news, though it seems the US-Mexico market is getting saturated a little too quickly. Oh well, only the strong will survive.
 
juventus
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:45 am

I agree. The USA-Mexico market is getting saturated. The skies between Mexico and the US are getting just a little crowed.
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:58 am

This isn't saturation. None of these flights will be operated more than 2x weekly. In fact, I doubt any of them will be more than 1x weekly. It is good use of aircraft that otherwise would sit on the ground during reduced weekend schedules. Might as well send them to Mexico.
a.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:00 am

The source to this is?


Not on NW's website, or in press release, or even the employee website.
 
N808NW
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:02 am

Will NW still have BOB food for these 5+ hr flights. Will they have any IFE too? If not... thats too bad NW customers.


-Jason  swirl 
All flights have great IFE...get yourself a window seat, thats something no PTV can beat! flew 808 Pacific an Atlanic
 
A330323X
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:02 am

I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
dutchjet
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:04 am

It amazing, after years of having little interest, the US airlines finally realized that there is a lot of potential flying pax to it southern neighbor - a lot of capacity has been added in recent years, but there seems to be the demand, as the size and number of Mexico's beach resorts has also grown.

NW is applying for many routes, but realistically, most of these cities will be served on weekends only with one or two flights per week, and some services may be seasonal. Resort destinations such as these keep aircraft busy during off peak weekend times and make an airlines FF program a bit sexier. A weekend in Los Cabos does sound better than another trip to Orlando.

Many cities have regular charters to Mexican destinations - are some of these new scheduled services replacing charters out of some cities?
 
PVD757
Topic Author
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
This isn't saturation. None of these flights will be operated more than 2x weekly. In fact, I doubt any of them will be more than 1x weekly. It is good use of aircraft that otherwise would sit on the ground during reduced weekend schedules. Might as well send them to Mexico.

The docket lists only "seasonal service starting this winter (to all the listed markets..."

I agree with Mark on this 1 or 2x weekly at most.

It goes on to say they will use 319/320's on the routes.

AA has already responded in opposiition to the application citing NW's ties with CO (the market leader to Mexico) and DL (with their codeshare with AM).

I have newly found hope that a US carrier will apply for PVD-CUN seasonal weekly service since OMA will get one! (maybe NK???)
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 10):
AA has already responded in opposiition to the application citing NW's ties with CO (the market leader to Mexico) and DL (with their codeshare with AM).

So because NW has ties to Aeromexico, Delta, and Continental, AA is saying NW shouldnt be allowed to fly this with their own metal. Get Real AA.
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 11):
So because NW has ties to Aeromexico, Delta, and Continental, AA is saying NW shouldnt be allowed to fly this with their own metal. Get Real AA.

And you think NW and other airlines don't do the same thing? Airlines do this all the time, including Northwest.

AA thinks it is unfair that they cannot have anti-trust with BA, while all the other cartels can have anti-trust with their major partners - LH/UA, DL/AF, and NW/KL. They don't believe it is fair that anti-trust imminutiy is being taken to a much further level, and I agree with them. They have every single right to complain.

Airlines complain about each other all the time, NW is no exception.

The complaining isn't going to get them anywhere, but so be it.
a.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:44 am

I don't believe OMA has customs/immigration yet? I wanted to send a Mexico flight there recently and they couldn't accomodate it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
RJNUT
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:51 am

so many of these routes over the years, to all the resorts, have been primarily served with 3rd rate charter(ie. Ryan International ,et al) outfits with horrible on-times and no back ups!

Its great to see the more reliable "Scheds" pick up these routes! and offer online connex thru their hubs and also hub bypass where warranted!

I went MCI-CUN twice last year and plan to go MCI-PVR this year!!

(BTW, Frontier has great on board margaritas..Salvador's brand..30proof)
 
as739x
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:56 am

OMA may have Customs on demand. Also, CUN is looking into or starting pre-clearing US pax in Cancun. Though even if this happens, there will still need to be Custom on the other end.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
panamair
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
AA thinks it is unfair that they cannot have anti-trust with BA, while all the other cartels can have anti-trust with their major partners - LH/UA, DL/AF, and NW/KL. They don't believe it is fair that anti-trust imminutiy is being taken to a much further level, and I agree with them. They have every single right to complain

Sorry to take this off-topic but the AA-BA deal is different from LH/UA, DL/AF, and NW/KL because of the LHR issue. AA has every opportunity and right to start its own flights to FRA, AMS, and CDG to compete but DL, NW, CO, US, and all others (except UA and VS) have no ability to enter LHR even if they wanted to. Granting AA/BA the same anti-trust immunity for LHR would have a greater negative effect on the consumer than having anti-trust immunity in markets such as FRA,AMS, and CDG, all of which have Open Skies with the U.S.
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 16):
Sorry to take this off-topic but the AA-BA deal is different from LH/UA, DL/AF, and NW/KL because of the LHR issue. AA has every opportunity and right to start its own flights to FRA, AMS, and CDG to compete but DL, NW, CO, US, and all others (except UA and VS) have no ability to enter LHR even if they wanted to. Granting AA/BA the same anti-trust immunity for LHR would have a greater negative effect on the consumer than having anti-trust immunity in markets such as FRA,AMS, and CDG, all of which have Open Skies with the U.S.

Yes, I know. I still support AA/BA's antitrust, but I understand why they don't have it.

Though that doesn't change the fact that AA has every right to complain.
a.
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:15 am

OMA-CUN? Interesting....

Wonder if thats a sign of an impending build-up, ala IND and MKE?

COuld Mesaba's new RJ's be used for the service from MEM?
 
FATFlyer
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
I don't believe OMA has customs/immigration yet?

OMA has customs services available Mon-Fri during business hours. Outside of that would take advance arrangements.
http://www.eppleyoperations.com/customs.htm
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
fedexexpress
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:58 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 18):
Wonder if thats a sign of an impending build-up, ala IND and MKE?

Do you think they will add any more routes to the IND or MKE markets?????
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 18):
COuld Mesaba's new RJ's be used for the service from MEM?

No, the CRJ's don't have the legs do to this from MEM at all.

As everyone else as said, NW has finally gotten on the ball here, everyone else has already exploited Mexico from their southern hubs, its time for NW to cash into the higher yielding leisure crowd, especially from the Upper Midwest, which still doesn't really have much in the way of nonstop service to Mexico.

This will just use idle A319/A320's on Saturdays & Sundays, December-April.
 
MGA
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:23 am

Any news if they are interested in Central America routes?? (GUA-SAL or MGA maybe)

MGA
Que viva el guaro, el dinero y los aviones!!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting MGA (Reply 22):
Any news if they are interested in Central America routes?? (GUA-SAL or MGA maybe)

Northwest has no interest in the region outside of their current LIR service. I wouldn't be surprised to see them fly to SJO in the future, but none their hubs are suitable for GUA/SAL/MGA service, and they have their CO and DL partners covering the area just fine.
a.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:35 am

Was there any indication of when they'd start this service, how long they'd fly it, when they plan on flying it, what days of week? Looks like a NW route authority grab which is not kosher.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LambertMan
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 20):
Do you think they will add any more routes to the IND or MKE markets?????

If you are talking about leisure intl destinations, probably not. Most of those routes mentioned above are relying solely on connecting traffic, especially the MEM routes. You may be saying, "then why did OMA get a flight to CUN"? Thats because Cancun is so popular among American tourists that runninng a once weekly flight Cancun is feasible in a number of smaller markets.

The Milwaukee and Indianapolis focus cities, for the most part, are relying solely on origin and destination traffic. Those two cities simply cannot produce the kind of traffic needed to start something like PVR or CZM.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 18):
OMA-CUN? Interesting....

Wonder if thats a sign of an impending build-up, ala IND and MKE?

Omaha has been identified as one of NW's heartland markets it would like to try and focus on. With that being said, sure there could be some small growth in the future to key destinations, but nothing on the scale of IND and MKE. Omaha is already well served by the service that is currently in place.
 
m404
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:06 am

OMA-CUN possibly means they already have a request for service from a tour wholesaler in the area. Has this run ever been done by one of the "3rd rater" RJNUT mentioned? I think that was how NW started the MEM-CUN route. Too many problems with who had it before. I'd bet on all these requests they already have a wholesaler that requested it or their own MLT Vacations.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
ghost77
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:34 am

And I've heard of NW interested in a QET/QRO-DTW flight with A319.

Ricardo APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 27):
And I've heard of NW interested in a QET/QRO-DTW flight with A319.

Eh...I don't see that working.

American Airlines/American Eagle will be the next airline to QRO. They are looking at service to LAX, DFW, MIA, and ORD.
a.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Was there any indication of when they'd start this service, how long they'd fly it, when they plan on flying it, what days of week? Looks like a NW route authority grab which is not kosher.

Not true at all, these are all markets that fit within NW's plan: fortifying their strength in their hubs and in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes region. This is simply offering service to where the people want to go. There are a ton of people who want to vacation in Mexico during the winter months. That said, there are many eager resorts ready to accept these visitors and their money. Same with tour packages.

NW already operates numerous seasonal, weekend-only routes, including to Mexico already. This simply expands on this. Maybe a little pre-emptive toward F9, but DTW, MSP, and MEM are NW's turf. As said, OMA is a NW key heartland market, where NW is eager to work with the local community on providing air service.

With whatever is approved, look for weekend-only, Sat/Sun service to begin in either Mid-December, or the beginning of Feb. through April. This is to capture the winter/spring break crowd and fill some A319/A320 aircraft on the weekend when a lot of domestic service is drawn-down.

NW typically announced these routes at least 90 days out. So typically PR would come out for winter routes from Mid August through September. This is just the first step in the process.
 
ghost77
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
Eh...I don't see that working.

American Airlines/American Eagle will be the next airline to QRO. They are looking at service to LAX, DFW, MIA, and ORD.

Well, there's been a lot of gossip around in the last days... from what I've heard..... the list of new flights include:

COex
LAX-QRO

AA
QRO-ORD
QRO-DFW

MX
QRO-LAX
QRO-ORD
QRO-MIA

NW
QRO-DTW

Ricardo APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
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mariner
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:10 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 29):
Maybe a little pre-emptive toward F9,

How is it pre-emptive against F9?

Frontier doesn't fly to MEM, has only recently started DTW, and, equally recently, has gone to mainline at OMA.

Moreover, they are moving very cautiously with the point to point services to Mexico, after the failure of AUS/CUN last season - not every route to Mexico is a gold mine.

The only one that might - stress "might" - happen would be OMA/CUN, but I doubt it. Frontier is much more likely to develop Mexican routes from MCI and STL.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
nwafflyer
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:13 am

Oh my, then, can I fly to Queretaro on NWA?
 
stirling
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:27 am

I seem to remember some scuttlebutt awhile ago about someone, (AM, MX, NW) looking into the feasibility of a HMO-DTW route.

And then the very next week, I was on a flight to BNA, via PHX on WN, when I sat with a group of fellas who worked for Ford. They were returning after some time spent at the Ford Assembly plant in Hermosillo.

They said they took a turboprop flight on the HMO-PHX leg (Can't remember who it was...but it wasn't HP I know that for certain), then hopped on WN in PHX the rest of the way to the Motor City. (with another change at BNA)

Of course I asked why it was necessary to buy 2 separate tickets, and the answer was the cost exceeded the allowed budget, meaning the whole team was able to go, instead of just half the team, had they purchased through tickets on....I am thinking he said DL. (I was moderately surprised to find Ford controlled costs so closely.)

So the question is, is HMO-DTW still on anyone's radar? From what the guys told me, it's a fairly busy route for them. But then again, this was a couple of years ago; things change.
Delete this User
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 33):

So the question is, is HMO-DTW still on anyone's radar? From what the guys told me, it's a fairly busy route for them. But then again, this was a couple of years ago; things change.

Mexicana applied for DTW-HMO last spring, but never started the service because NW joined skyTeam, so then AeroMexico applied for DTW-HMO with plans to start in December 2004. However, nothing has happened yet, but AM has the route authority, as does MX.
a.
 
nwcoflyer
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting N808NW (Reply 7):
Will NW still have BOB food for these 5+ hr flights. Will they have any IFE too? If not... thats too bad NW customers.

Doubt these flights are 5 Hours. They would be 4 hours at the most.

And I am sure Joe Doe really wont give a darn. He wants the lowest fare, regardless of anything else. That is where the industry is now (unfortunatley, IMHO).

I am sure it wont drive traffic to fly somebody else. Especially on a market like OMA-CUN.
The New American is arriving.
 
masseybrown
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:13 pm

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 30):
the list of new flights include:

COex
LAX-QRO

CO already operates LAX-QRO; do you mean an additional frequency?
 
Fyano773
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:30 pm

NW has scarce presence in MEX, sending just 1 daily A319 and incidentally the 752...


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Any chance to send the 753?


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I think I have double vision  eyepopping ...


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Fyano.
 
juventus
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:45 pm

Its a good thing to see NW expand on this side of the pond, even if its "on weekends". Besides Mexico, do they service any other Latin American cities?
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:52 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 38):
Its a good thing to see NW expand on this side of the pond, even if its "on weekends". Besides Mexico, do they service any other Latin American cities?

Liberia, Costa Rica and Punta Cana, Dominican Republic.
a.
 
juventus
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:54 pm

Thanx MAH4546. I did not know they flew to Costa Rica
 
blackearth
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 1):
WOW. Omaha- Cancun? Cancun is a hot place for business, but Omaha? Anyway, good news, hope they get them

I'm not surprised at all. I teach at a small college about 100 miles south of Minneapolis. Probably 20% of my students have been to Cancun at one time or another, and these aren't rich students. The market for Cancun in the upper Midwest is broad and deep. I think Des Moines could support a flight as well on O&D.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:41 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 40):
Thanx MAH4546. I did not know they flew to Costa Rica

Yep, before the recent Liberia, Costa Rica boom, NW was for quite some time the only one there.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 29):
Not true at all, these are all markets that fit within NW's plan: fortifying their strength in their hubs and in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes region.

No my point is that NW is just grabbing a bunch of route authorities without properly detailing their plans for service as is required--unless someone can show me otherwise.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
A330323X
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
No my point is that NW is just grabbing a bunch of route authorities without properly detailing their plans for service as is required--unless someone can show me otherwise.

You'll find in a good number of Mexico applications that the applicants don't specify their frequency, including applications by F9 and the like. NW said that the service will be seasonal. Also, there are two available designations for each of these markets, (though U5 just applied for the other one in DTW-ZIH), so no one is being adversely affected by NW's application, otherwise the DOT would institute a carrier-selection proceeding where the applicants would need to provide more detailed service information.

Finally, it's not possible to just grab the authorities and sit on them, since U.S.-Mexico authorities all come with dormancy conditions; if they're not being used, they automatically revert to the DOT.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 44):
You'll find in a good number of Mexico applications that the applicants don't specify their frequency

I've done a few of those applications and as far as I know it's required that you propose a tentative schedule as well as a time frame.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 44):
Finally, it's not possible to just grab the authorities and sit on them, since U.S.-Mexico authorities all come with dormancy conditions; if they're not being used, they automatically revert to the DOT.

That is not technically true. If a US-Mexico route authority is not being used, the airline still holds it as long as they continue to renew it (i.e. AA holds MIA-MTY, ORD-MTY, and MIA-CZM). However, if an airline is not using it, and there are no other available slots for another airline to enter the market, then the airline must give it up.

For example, both MX and AM hold MIA-MID. AM uses the rights, but MX does not. Since no other Mexican airline wants MIA-MID, MX keeps the dormant authority.
a.
 
PVD757
Topic Author
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
I've done a few of those applications and as far as I know it's required that you propose a tentative schedule as well as a time frame.

This might be true, but I think it has to be provided if the DOT asks for it, or if they are trying to decide which (of 3, when that happens) carrier to choose. As you know, the premise is "of public interest," so the two carriers that propose to offer the "best" service in one of these routes, hypothetically should get the service. If only carrier is applying for rights in a market and they poll the other carriers with none of them objecting, they'll get the authoruty and offer whatever level of service they want.
 
goomba
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:48 am

Omaha is a hot bed city for the outsourced call center market. Many telemarketing companies run operations out of Omaha because labor is cheap and square footage is abundant and inexpensive.

Many of these same call center companies set up call centers in Mexico because labor and overhead is even cheaper.

In addition to the millions of people that visit Cancun from a tourist perspective, there are 500,000 Mexican residents that call Cancun their home. The call center market supplies jobs for many of these folks which explains the reason why NWA can support a non-stop from Omaha to Cancun above and beyond the obvious reason (tourism) that people travel there.
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Applies For Slew Of New Mexican Routes

Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting Goomba (Reply 48):
Omaha is a hot bed city for the outsourced call center market. Many telemarketing companies run operations out of Omaha because labor is cheap and square footage is abundant and inexpensive.

Many of these same call center companies set up call centers in Mexico because labor and overhead is even cheaper.

In addition to the millions of people that visit Cancun from a tourist perspective, there are 500,000 Mexican residents that call Cancun their home. The call center market supplies jobs for many of these folks which explains the reason why NWA can support a non-stop from Omaha to Cancun above and beyond the obvious reason (tourism) that people travel there.

Good analysis, but this has nothing to do with NW starting a weekly Omaha-Cancun service.
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