MAH4546
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MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:34 pm

As posted earlier, ATA will be resuming MIA-MDW service this fall. They will be one of only two LCCs that flies to South Florida and does not fly to FLL (Independence Air is the other, flying only to PBI). ATA is the first airline to take advantage of a new incentive program recently started at MIA, and will not be paying landing fees for a year. Following is a link to an article from today's Miami Herald, which also mentions jetBlue's impending MIA announcement, the possibility of Southwest codesharing on ATA's new flight, and this very interesting quote:

"''We think it is best(to not serve FLL). The numbers we've run suggest Miami is the better destination,'' he said. ``Miami doesn't have a lot of low-fare service. It's a little crowded at Fort Lauderdale with the all JetBlues of the world and what-not, so we think Miami will be a better place for us.''

Now who'd have ever thunk six months ago that a domestic airline other than AA would have been saying "MIA is better place for us"?

Obviously, in addition to the incentive program, a big part of ATA coming to MIA likely has to do with Southwest. There is no doubt in mind they will be codesharing on this flight, and that is the main reason ATA is coming back. AA will be ever-so happy. The way the airline industry works today, I wouldn't be surprised if this decission was heavily influence by Southwest mangement and their desire to annoy AA because of AA's stands on the Wright Ammendement issue.

Full article:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/12135102.htm
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stlgph
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:22 pm

it'd be great to see this be the start a new point of growth for ATA.

three flights a day to Chicago is a start...
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MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:18 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 1):
it'd be great to see this be the start a new point of growth for ATA.

three flights a day to Chicago is a start...

Do you mean more growth for ATA out of MIA?

I doubt ATA at Miami will be anything more than the three Midway flights.
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stlgph
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Do you mean more growth for ATA out of MIA?

I doubt ATA at Miami will be anything more than the three Midway flights.

yes. and agreed.
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MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:30 am

Well, and also, maybe if they are very successful, they will start MIA-PHX so they can connect with the Hawai'i flights and WN's west coast flights out of Phoenix. This is the reason they started DEN-PHX, and that flight has been doing well thanks to the WN codeshare and Hawai'i connections. MIA-PHX also has only one daily HP flight.
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swadispatcher
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:32 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
This is the reason they started DEN-PHX, and that flight has been doing well thanks to the WN codeshare and Hawai'i connections

That's a slight understatement..  Big grin
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ATA767
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:04 am

Its is more than doing well it is already profitable and going strong.
 
miamix707
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:05 am

So is JetBlue thinking of stopping FLL eventually to operate all-MIA? Btw, since when is ATA no loger flying to FLL? Independance Air did several proving flights to Miami Intl with their A319s. I thought that meant regular service would follow.

Now if MIA could lure more International traffic. Only the few big legacy European airlines (which also fly everywhere else) serve the airport. Perhaps some more majors like Air Lingus, SAS and even some charters would take the bait. Maybe LAUDA/Austrian could be back?

Filling the void of CityBird, perhaps SN-Brussels?

MIA has lost too many airlines during the last 10 years. Off the top of my head, now I could only think of Santa Barbara and Aeropostal as the only foreign airlines that serve MIA exclusively in North America. (TAM will be starting JFK too later this year).

Could Jetblue afford to have the same fares out of MIA than it has out of FLL?
 
DB777
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:15 am

Why would jetBlue drop FLL when the huge majority of domestic O&D travelers to South Florida want to fly to FLL? That doesn't compute. MIA would be added to capture more of the SoFla market, not to replace FLL.

If they pay 4 times as much to operate out of MIA (before incentive discounts) one would think the fares would be somewhat higher out of MIA.
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miamix707
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:26 am

-If they pay 4 times as much to operate out of MIA (before incentive discounts) one would think the fares would be somewhat higher out of MIA. -

I had no idea it was that much more expensive to operate out of MIA, but that's what I imagined, again what do I know Big grin Adding to that, some JetBlue fares are not so cheap anymore. I wanted to book JetBlue last time but their late week/weekend fares were like 3x as high. No way, booked on Song instead.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
The way the airline industry works today, I wouldn't be surprised if this decission was heavily influence by Southwest mangement and their desire to annoy AA because of AA's stands on the Wright Ammendement issue.

Sorry, but you seem to be confusing your airlines. It is the legacies who make new route decisions on the basis of retaliatory motives driven by ego over sound business sense when they become "annoyed" by another airline. If Southwest has, in any way, influenced ATA's return to MIA, it is for one reason, and one reason only: they have "done their homework" and believe there is profit to be made.

[Edited 2005-07-16 04:59:38]
 
MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:32 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
So is JetBlue thinking of stopping FLL eventually to operate all-MIA?

No way.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
Btw, since when is ATA no loger flying to FLL?

They ended FLL-MDW in Feburary 2005 and FLL-IND in April 2005.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
Independance Air did several proving flights to Miami Intl with their A319s. I thought that meant regular service would follow.

There has been talk they will be doing MIA-IAD this December. We'll see, little has been heard.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
Only the few big legacy European airlines (which also fly everywhere else) serve the airport.

Eleven European/Middle Eastern airlines serve MIA, which is a lot more than most airports can say. European service is not lacking at all. LTU, Finnair, Alitalia, Martinair Holland, Swiss, and El Al serve few US airports.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
Perhaps some more majors like Air Lingus, SAS and even some charters would take the bait. Maybe LAUDA/Austrian could be back?

Aer Lingus wants to come to MIA, but can't. The US-Ireland bilatteral doesn't allow it. They want to go to SFO too, also can't.

SAS has always talked about coming to MIA in the future, but the priority for long-haul growth right now is Asia. Lauda has also shown an interest in possibly coming back in the future, this time non-stop from Vienna, since Lufthansa and LTU now fly MIA-MUC.

Until then, Air Scotland, Domodevo (sp) Airlines, Sterling Airlines (Denmark), and South African Airways have all noted their plans to possibly fly to Miami in late 2005/2006. Only Domodevo Airlines has firmly said they are coming. Now, we'll have to wait and see which of the other ones actually come, but at least MIA is garnering interest.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):

Filling the void of CityBird, perhaps SN-Brussels?

SN Brussels does not fly trans-Atlantic, but AA is looking at starting MIA-BRU in codeshare.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):

MIA has lost too many airlines during the last 10 years.

Almost all of them to bankruptcy and consolidation. Sadly, nothing MIA can do about that. Most of those airlines that left no longer exist - Ecuatoriana, Faucett, Laker, etc.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
. Off the top of my head, now I could only think of Santa Barbara and Aeropostal as the only foreign airlines that serve MIA exclusively in North America. (TAM will be starting JFK too later this year).

LanPeru (flights to LAX and JFK are LA codeshares), Surinam Airways, and Sol Air as well. And LanArgentina is coming in December. Sadly, the LAN airlines don't really add variety since they just fly LAN planes, but they are independent airlines non the less. You can't even earn oneWorld miles on LANEcuador and LANArgentina (you can on LANPeru). And TAM's still "just" ours. JFK-GRU hasn't been announced yet. And if the planned start date is still October, they better hurry it up.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):

Could Jetblue afford to have the same fares out of MIA than it has out of FLL?

Eh, most likely not. jetBlue is betting people will pay a premium to fly out of MIA, which is usually the case. I would think flights from MIA, depending on season, would run $5-$10 more each way than FLL.
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stlgph
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Well, and also, maybe if they are very successful, they will start MIA-PHX so they can connect with the Hawai'i flights and WN's west coast flights out of Phoenix.

i was thinking along those lines. think there's a Miami - Las Vegas market?
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miamix707
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:26 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Aer Lingus wants to come to MIA, but can't. The US-Ireland bilatteral doesn't allow it. They want to go to SFO too, also can't

Not sure when that bilateral came into effect or what it means but there was talk of them starting service to MIA a few years ago. Before 9/11 several airlines had plans or intentions to serve Miami. Just as curious facts, some of the recent ones I remember:


-Passaredo (Brasil), in the late 1990s applied for MIA service with their two A310s but then went bankrupt or ceased ops.
-AeroSur (bolivia). wanted to get an A310 for Miami service, this never happened.
-Atlas Air (turkey), I think after 9/11 but not sure.
-Emirates, pre-9/11 said they were looking to start MIA in the near future.
-SAS, pre-9/11 said they were going to start Miami service at the end of 2001.
-LOT, was very close to starting MIA service in the summer of 2001, then came 9/11 and nothing else has been said. Don't think they even remember.


More recent ones:

-Air Santo Domingo was about to start MIA service. Somehow never happened, they started flying to JFK instead.
-About 2 years ago BMI supposedly was looking at the possibility of setting up a US hub in Miami... whatever that meant.
-Thai looked at the possiblity to make a stop at MIA flying from Brazil to Asia or so was said on a.net.
-AeroRepublica applied and actually got permission. Then abandoned plans to serve MIA at least in the near future. Likely never will.
-Most recently Kenya Airways, rumour started here on a.net but then turned out to be false  Wink

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Almost all of them to bankruptcy and consolidation. Sadly, nothing MIA can do about that. Most of those airlines that left no longer exist - Ecuatoriana, Faucett, Laker, etc.

Yes that's true, but perhaps if AA didn't have such a monopoly on the latin/caribbean routes out of this airport, some of these carriers might have survived. The environment could be more attractive for new airlines to be created in the region that wold be flying to Miami and even other US cities.

While AA has that near-monopoly on the caribbean routes, there are so many obstacles that prevent many foreign airlines from operating to the US, in this case Miami it's not really fair.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
LanPeru (flights to LAX and JFK are LA codeshares), Surinam Airways, and Sol Air as well. And LanArgentina is coming in December. Sadly, the LAN airlines don't really add variety since they just fly LAN planes, but they are independent airlines non the less

Heh, I woudln't even count LAN Peru, as it's really just a LAN airplane. Now LAN Argentina, same thing. Surinam hasn't flown their "own" planes in their colors to MIA since 1993, then only using ALM and then Miami Air. Sol Air (now Aerohonduras) is basically a Falcon Air/Aeropostal operation with a plane in the latter's colors that used to have Aerohonduras titles, now they erased those and put Falcon Air. So really, no sign of that airlne either.


Mark or anyone else happens to know when is Eurofly coming? Also read somewhere they will operate all the way until December. However I've checked flytecomm lately and I don't see Eurofly listed at MIA on Saturdays.
 
MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Not sure when that bilateral came into effect or what it means but there was talk of them starting service to MIA a few years ago.

The US-Ireland bilatteral requires the Shannon stop and only gives Aer Lingus access to five cities. When Aer Lingus said "we want SFO and MIA", the US goverment shot back and said "we'll give you SFO and MIA if Ireland ends the Shannon 50/50 rule". That has not happened, and, until then, Aer Linugus can't fly to MIA. Aer Lingus is ready to fly to MIA (and SFO) the moment a new US-Ireland bilatteral is drawn up that gives them access.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-Emirates, pre-9/11 said they were looking to start MIA in the near future.

I never knew about that. However, I never think it would have happened. With Emirates ambitous expansion plans, I do think when they expand heavily in the North American market, which is inevitable with all the planes coming, MIA will definitley be one of the possible destinations.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-Atlas Air (turkey), I think after 9/11 but not sure.

That was after 9/11. They were going to fly a weekly scheduled charter, but didn't have the planes to operate it. Never were able to get them.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-SAS, pre-9/11 said they were going to start Miami service at the end of 2001.

I never knew that. Though I do know SAS has been in close talks with MIA officials as of late. SAS is probably the most likely next European carrier in MIA.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-LOT, was very close to starting MIA service in the summer of 2001, then came 9/11 and nothing else has been said. Don't think they even remember.

This is true. LOT was very, very close to announcing MIA-WAW until 9/11 happened. Too bad.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-Air Santo Domingo was about to start MIA service. Somehow never happened, they started flying to JFK instead.

I'm pretty sure Air Santo Domingo service started. I do know it was bookable.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-About 2 years ago BMI supposedly was looking at the possibility of setting up a US hub in Miami... whatever that meant.

I don't think bmi ever planned an MIA hub. bmi was very close to starting MIA-MAN, most things were set, but then AA announced MIA-MAN, and bmi started MAN-LAS instead.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
-Thai looked at the possiblity to make a stop at MIA flying from Brazil to Asia or so was said on a.net.

Yes, Thai mentioned Miami as a possible future destination to the press last year. Unrealistic, and I'm sure even Thai knew that.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Yes that's true, but perhaps if AA didn't have such a monopoly on the latin/caribbean routes out of this airport, some of these carriers might have survived.

That doesn't make sense. AA's MIA hub has nothing to do with the fact that the carriers were poorly managed, had aging and poorly kept fleets, were flying money losing routes because the government told them to, were victims of ambitous plans of other Latin airlines (i.e. AeroMexico and AeroPeru), and were corrupt. In most cases, the only thing those airlines had going for their flagship routes to MIA, which were frequently the only ones making money. It is not as if AA offering lowfares and top notch service. In most cases, the other airlines offered better prices (though still nothing cheap) and better service. And it wasn't something exclusive to Latin America. It happened all over Africa as well. You can't blame Air France's Paris-Africa hub on the failure of many African Airlines throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Mark or anyone else happens to know when is Eurofly coming? Also read somewhere they will operate all the way until December. However I've checked flytecomm lately and I don't see Eurofly listed at MIA on Saturdays.

Eurofly is flying to MIA on Saturdays, MXP-MIA-FPO-MXP, and they will be flying through mid-December this year.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 13):
Heh, I woudln't even count LAN Peru, as it's really just a LAN airplane. Now LAN Argentina, same thing. Surinam hasn't flown their "own" planes in their colors to MIA since 1993, then only using ALM and then Miami Air. Sol Air (now Aerohonduras) is basically a Falcon Air/Aeropostal operation with a plane in the latter's colors that used to have Aerohonduras titles, now they erased those and put Falcon Air. So really, no sign of that airlne either.

True, true, though still, they are independent airlines in every sense, they just use other carriers planes. LanPeru, LanArgentina, and LanEcuador use their own crew. Surinam Airways, as you know, can't use their own planes to the United States, so they don't have that option. IIRC, they first were using a Miami Air 727 via Port of Spain. Then they reached a deal with DCA to use a DCA MD80 via Curacao. Then DCA went bankrupt, and Surinam Airways was without a partner for a while, so they reached a deal with Air Jamaica to carry SY passengers via Montego Bay. Then they had a short deal with AA to carry passengers via Curacao. Now they are back with their "own" operation using a Falcon Air 737-300 via Aruba.

The new incentive program that MIA has approved, though, is seeing huge reponse from airlines. MIA is in talk without a lot of airlines right now. Of course, the reality is that only a handful of these airlines will actually start MIA, but this program, which helps strongly offset the high start-up costs at MIA, has already been a success even though it just started.

MIA's situation really isn't much different than most US airports. The four other main gateways - O'Hare, LAX, SFO, and JFK/EWR - haven't been gaining that much either. O'Hare has lost Virgin, Austrian, Aeroflot, ANA, Singapore, and soon Kuwait. Alitalia, SAS (put up for booking, never started), and Swiss have left San Francisco. Aerolineas Argentinas, Avianca, and Alitalia no longer are at LAX. Tarom and TAP are gone from JFK, while Aer Lingus and Swiss left Newark. And Boston Logan said bye to TAP, Sabena, and Olympic. More than anything else, it has to do with European airlines shifting their long-haul focus to Asia, away from North America. In fact, most of what those airports have gained, especially JFK/EWR, has been in the form of Asian carriers, like Thai and Emirates.

[Edited 2005-07-17 00:09:22]
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FlyingTexan
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:19 am

Isn’t MIA hurting because of FLL?

FLL is a product of its own success. That place is so overcrowded, I avoid it like the plague.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
think there's a Miami - Las Vegas market?

American has 2 daily 757s and HP has 1 daily Airbii.

 spin 
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MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 15):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
think there's a Miami - Las Vegas market?

American has 2 daily 757s and HP has 1 daily Airbii.

Yup. Plus HP's daily FLL-LAS 320 and Song's daily FLL-LAS 757. And AA may be adding a 3rd daily with the winter schedule.

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 15):
Isn�t MIA hurting because of FLL?

Until very (and emphasis on very) recently, yes. The situation, for MIA, has gotten a lot better in the past 4-5 months. Who'd have ever though, as recently as December, that an LCC would chose MIA over FLL?

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 15):

FLL is a product of its own success. That place is so overcrowded, I avoid it like the plague.

I do too. I can't stand it anymore. I used to love the ease of it, but the place is a nightmare. The security lines, the delays, the congestion...and after comparing it to the new D-gates at MIA...they no longer compare. I just did a weekend trip to NYC last weekend. I decided to do FLL-LGA-MIA, and FLL was just a mess. A victim of it's own success. Though this doesn't mean FLL's growth won't continue. It will definitley slow down, but Delta, US Airways, and jetBlue will continue to add to FLL. Just this week FLL gained eight extra daily flights to Newark.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
Now if MIA could lure more International traffic.

...um, WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot on this one bub  confused   Yeah sure

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 7):
MIA has lost too many airlines during the last 10 years.

Well, ya stole most of ours-- guess it's karma  Wink
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rjpieces
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:00 am

You can't blame Air France's Paris-Africa hub on the failure of many African Airlines throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

How many Africa routes does Air France run?
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MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:58 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 18):
You can't blame Air France's Paris-Africa hub on the failure of many African Airlines throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

How many Africa routes does Air France run?

Abidjan, Algiers, Bamako, Bangui, Brazzaville, Cairo, Casablanca, Conakry, Cotonou, Dakar, Djibouti, Douala, Johannesburg, Lagos, Libreville, Lome, Luanda, Madagascar, Malabo, Marrakech, Niamey, N'Djamena, Nouakchott, Ouagadougou, Pointe-Noire, Port Harcourt, Rabat, Tunis, Yaounde

In addition to these 29 destinations, KLM adds flights to Abuja, Addis Abada, Entenebe, Kano, Khartoum, and Kilimanajaro, bringing AF's African network up to 35 cities, not much smaller than AA's Latin American network. Since Air France and KLM merged, Air France has used KLM to expand their presence in eastern Africa were AF was weak.
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miamix707
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:49 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
don't think bmi ever planned an MIA hub. bmi was very close to starting MIA-MAN, most things were set, but then AA announced MIA-MAN, and bmi started MAN-LAS instead.

I'm no expert on these things but the use of the word hub seemed strange to me also when I read it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
I'm pretty sure Air Santo Domingo service started. I do know it was bookable.

Could it be you'er thinking of Aeromar, or maybe LAN Dominicana. The only Air Santo Domingo planes seen at MIA were in the maintenance hangar. Unless, maybe they used something like Aero Continente.. but they were only doing the Air D'Hayiti flight besides their own, that I know of.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
That doesn't make sense. AA's MIA hub has nothing to do with the fact that the carriers were poorly managed, had aging and poorly kept fleets

If you have access to any past timetables look up the extra daily frequencies that AA started to the same destinations SOL Air was flying as soon as they started operations. Might have dropped the prices too ; ) who knows. Not really AA's fault, actually MIA's or whoever here in the USA for allowing it. I guess our views are a bit different here.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 17):
...um, WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot on this one bub

I guess I should have said # of airlines, instead of traffic.. but I didn't, and you didn't get it.. you'll get it next time. For whatever reasons, MIA had about twice the # of airlines at sometime in the 1990s than it does now.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 17):
Well, ya stole most of ours-- guess it's karma

ok bub so which ones  Wink
 
LawnDart
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:26 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 20):
For whatever reasons, MIA had about twice the # of airlines at sometime in the 1990s than it does now.

Huh? I have to agree with ConcordeBoy on this one...WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot...

There may have been a few airlines that discontinued MIA service (and all service) because they went out of business...Ecuatoriana...Aerocontinente. Okay, so Turkish Airlines just stopped service. Others have started service, however...Aviacsa and Santa Barbara, for instance. MIA is the second largest international port of entry into the U.S., I believe.

FLL is having it's problems...the increase in traffic and the fact that there is really only one useable runway for major airline operations has vaulted FLL into one of the most delay-prone airports in the country. There comes a time when the cost of delays will outweigh the cheaper landing fees, and low-cost carriers will start to look at the 2 million customers in Dade County, and decide MIA is worth it.

One question...does anyone know if the incentives offered by MIA will be extended to legacy carriers wishing to start new service? Would AS get the free landing fees when they restart SEA-MIA? Would UA get it if they restarted MIA-LAX for instance, or DL for MIA-JFK? If not, I smell trouble.
 
miamix707
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:21 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 21):
Huh? I have to agree with ConcordeBoy on this one...WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot...

Go look at an OAG flight guide from around 1996 or earlier (and that won't even include the cargo airlines of which there was more than twice as many also).

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 21):
There may have been a few airlines that discontinued MIA service (and all service) because they went out of business...Ecuatoriana...Aerocontinente. Okay, so Turkish Airlines just stopped service. Others have started service, however...Aviacsa and Santa Barbara, for instance. MIA is the second largest international port of entry into the U.S., I believe.

No big deal really, but you're stil proving the point I was trying to make.

As for the last part of your post and United, I read somewhere, (probably here) that United will turn MIA into all TED. A far cry from the 1990s when they used to send 747s, 747SPs, which were replaced by 777s. From that, to TED A320s..

By the way, so what will MIA do with that new terminal which was built for the Star Alliance carriers? Have they figured out how they're gonna use it yet, since there's not enough Star A. service to be used exclusively by these carriers? Soon even less, if United turns MIA into all TED, their widebody service and long haul won't be coming back to MIA anytime soon as they had calculated when they decided to build it.
 
MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:29 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 21):

One question...does anyone know if the incentives offered by MIA will be extended to legacy carriers wishing to start new service? Would AS get the free landing fees when they restart SEA-MIA? Would UA get it if they restarted MIA-LAX for instance, or DL for MIA-JFK? If not, I smell trouble.

AS will not be getting incentives. It is simply a one-time suspension. If AS got the incentives, then every airline can suspend service on a route for one day, and re-start it two days later, and ask for incentives.

UA and DL would get the incentives. DL was actually supposed to announce MIA-JFK last winter (MD80s), but it never happened. There might be a DL announcement for MIA-JFK in 2-3 months. Some are saying it will be Song, some are saying it will be Delta Connection (E170s). I'm leaning towards it being Delta Connection. The main point of the flight is to connect to Europe flights, and the F-class seats could be beneficial. A daily SLC flight (738) is also starting to be rumoured, thanks to the incentives and the success of the DL's two daily FLL-SLC flights.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 22):

By the way, so what will MIA do with that new terminal which was built for the Star Alliance carriers? Have they figured out how they're gonna use it yet, since there's not enough Star A. service to be used exclusively by these carriers? Soon even less, if United turns MIA into all TED, their widebody service and long haul won't be coming back to MIA anytime soon as they had calculated when they decided to build it.

There has been talk that the new terminal may be occupied by skyTeam and Delta's partners, and what would have been the world's second largest Red Carpet Club may become a Delta Crown Room. Very, very little is known, though, until then, Star Alliance PR's still brag about their new "state of the art" MIA terminal. skyTeam and Delta's partners have a very sizeable operation at MIA, more than 60 daily flights to about 30 cities.

I've been told that United going all-Ted to O'Hare, Denver, and Dulles actually had to do with getting incentives. MIA is considering Ted a "new airline". Meanwhile, there has been talk of MIA-SFO coming back (but not MIA-LAX), and it would be a daily 757, mainline.

The MIA incentive program is perhaps one of the best I've ever head in terms of potential for getting new airlines. It applies to all new airline service except additional frequency on existing routes. There are no limitations, unlike most, including FLL's. AA will get free landing fees too for new routes.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 22):

Go look at an OAG flight guide from around 1996 or earlier (and that won't even include the cargo airlines of which there was more than twice as many also).

No doubt, it is true. Though it is not something exclusive to MIA. Most of those airlines no longer exist - Air Aruba, air ALM, AeroPeru, Faucett, Paradise Island Air, CityBird Belgium, Midway, Pan Am (MkII), Carnival Airlines, etc., etc. - they aren't in the timetables at any airport. It is very unfortunate.

[Edited 2005-07-17 07:44:22]
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ChiGB1973
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:27 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Aer Lingus is ready to fly to MIA (and SFO) the moment a new US-Ireland bilateral is drawn up that gives them access.

I know there has been several mentions of this, but EI does not have the planes to do it. BA and TZ are already doing subservice (I think that is what it's called) for them because of maintenance and other issues. If you can't cover what you got, you can't get more.

Of course, good news for Airbus if they do decide on MIA and/or SFO.

M
 
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 24):
I know there has been several mentions of this, but EI does not have the planes to do it. BA and TZ are already doing subservice (I think that is what it's called) for them because of maintenance and other issues. If you can't cover what you got, you can't get more.

They do have enough planes to open up 3-4x weekly service to Miami or SFO. They do run a hihgly utlized, but remember they no longer fly to Baltimore and the charter flights to Orlando would end with MIA/SFO scheduled service starting. (The MCO flights were announced as being discontinued in January, but lately I heard they will keep going? Not sure).
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:20 am

Here's a question, % chance EWR will be one of the initial routes for B6 when they launch MIA service...

My own speculation is that EWR, LGA and JFK will be launched from MIA at the same time.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
Here's a question, % chance EWR will be one of the initial routes for B6 when they launch MIA service...

My own speculation is that EWR, LGA and JFK will be launched from MIA at the same time.

I'm speculating that the launch cities will be JFK, EWR, BOS, and IAD. I'm still on the fence over LGA. This would require removing FLL-LGA flights, and despite jetBlue's problems at FLL, I'm not sure they want to do that.
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LawnDart
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:17 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
I'm speculating that the launch cities will be JFK, EWR, BOS, and IAD. I'm still on the fence over LGA. This would require removing FLL-LGA flights, and despite jetBlue's problems at FLL, I'm not sure they want to do that.

I agree...further, AA would react very strongly to any B6 operation between LGA and MIA, and B6 doesn't have enough slots at LGA to effectively respond. Better they should stick to LGA-FLL, where they're a potential force.
 
BOSPMV
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:28 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
I'm speculating that the launch cities will be JFK, EWR, BOS, and IAD. I'm still on the fence over LGA. This would require removing FLL-LGA flights, and despite jetBlue's problems at FLL, I'm not sure they want to do that.

I for one hope that they do start service to BOS, and also, would starting flights to all 3 nyc airports be a wise move? I could def see daily flights into JFK for sure, and EWR as well.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
They do have enough planes to open up 3-4x weekly service to Miami or SFO. They do run a hihgly utlized, but remember they no longer fly to Baltimore and the charter flights to Orlando would end with MIA/SFO scheduled service starting. (The MCO flights were announced as being discontinued in January, but lately I heard they will keep going? Not sure

so basically, it's either SFO or MIA for flights then? Not both.
 
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
I'm speculating that the launch cities will be JFK, EWR, BOS, and IAD. I'm still on the fence over LGA. This would require removing FLL-LGA flights, and despite jetBlue's problems at FLL, I'm not sure they want to do that.

That is exactly what I though. They will probably keep LGA as FLL flights until they get more slots which I don't know if that will come anytime soon. But for the others, I sure you will like JFK 4X (Rising to 5/6 on a later date), BOS 2X (Rising to 3 on a later date), And then like a week later they will start EWR 3X service and IAD 2X (Maybe rise to 3X a couple months later). I am still thinking though about frequencies so if you have anything to comment, please do.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 29):

so basically, it's either SFO or MIA for flights then? Not both.

It is both eventually. With some smart fleet planning, they could launch both at 3-4x a week. MIA would like come first because of the AA partnership and the shorter stage length.

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 30):
That is exactly what I though. They will probably keep LGA as FLL flights until they get more slots which I don't know if that will come anytime soon. But for the others, I sure you will like JFK 4X (Rising to 5/6 on a later date), BOS 2X (Rising to 3 on a later date), And then like a week later they will start EWR 3X service and IAD 2X (Maybe rise to 3X a couple months later). I am still thinking though about frequencies so if you have anything to comment, please do.

I was thinking they may start with 12 dailies: JFK 5x, BOS 2x, IAD 2x, EWR 2x, and I think they might throw in a daily redeye to LGB. They will soon be getting another LGB slot that AA is giving up next month.

Let's hope thats what happens, and lets hope the planning with MIA officials gets done soon! jetBlue coming to MIA is one of the worst kept secrets in the industry right now.
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 31):
Let's hope thats what happens, and lets hope the planning with MIA officials gets done soon! jetBlue coming to MIA is one of the worst kept secrets in the industry right now.

I KNOW!! It is in newspapers, people from jetBlue have said it alot, MIA is saying it, the only thing that is left to say is that they are starting service and I don't think that is too far off. Within the next 2/3 months, I am sure it will be announced.

  jetBlueAtJFK  

Edit-Typo

[Edited 2005-07-18 02:19:25]
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:11 am

jetBlue coming to MIA is one of the worst kept secrets in the industry right now.

Let's think about this. JetBlue has said that they will launch MIA service plenty of times. Neeleman must have been saying this for over a year. But, alas, no service yet!

JetBlue has thrown out so much mis-information just to throw competitors off. Who knows? MIA could be one more of those "throw off" cities...

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DB777
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:28 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
There has been talk that the new terminal may be occupied by skyTeam and Delta's partners, and what would have been the world's second largest Red Carpet Club may become a Delta Crown Room. Very, very little is known, though, until then, Star Alliance PR's still brag about their new "state of the art" MIA terminal. skyTeam and Delta's partners have a very sizeable operation at MIA, more than 60 daily flights to about 30 cities.

Unfortunately talk is cheap, and often wrong, and then it gets repeated here so readers around the world end up believing it. Delta is not going to J. Period. As I've stated twice before, J will have a variety (more than 10) of carriers on it to feed international pax into the new South Terminal FIS which will not be staffed by the feds unless there's an ample supply of international pax flowing into it. International flights on international gates on H will also feed the new FIS to keep the international pax counts up going through the FIS.


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MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting DB777 (Reply 34):
Unfortunately talk is cheap, and often wrong, and then it gets repeated here so readers around the world end up believing it. Delta is not going to J. Period. As I've stated twice before, J will have a variety (more than 10) of carriers on it to feed international pax into the new South Terminal FIS which will not be staffed by the feds unless there's an ample supply of international pax flowing into it. International flights on international gates on H will also feed the new FIS to keep the international pax counts up going through the FIS.

I really don't see what is so unfeasable about Delta, their partners, and skyTeam occupying J. You'll have Avianca, Air Jamaica, Continental Connection, Alitalia, Air France, AeroMexico, and Copa. With Star at H, you'll have Varig and Lufthansa. Then throw Aeropostal, AeroHonduras, Virgin Atlantic, BWIA, and Cayman Airways into H as well. That should kep FIS occupied.

We probably won't have an answer until the terminal comes closer to opening next spring.
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DB777
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:21 am

It is not that it's unfeasible because a good variety of airline moves could "feasibly" be made, but out of all the available choices there is always a "best" solution that should be implemented to get maximum utilization out of the gates and out of the new FIS that needs to be fed international arrival passengers.

Since there are domestic-only gates on H, it would make far more sense to keep domestic-only Delta on those domestic-only H gates instead of absolutely wasting J's international gate capabilities with Delta's domestic flights. I would say that's the primary reason Delta won't move to J, but there are some other factors. After J opens and certain carriers move there, Delta and all their buddies can easily operate off of H with the international buddies using the international gates on H to feed the new FIS. It is the "best" solution for this scenario and situation.

Airline moves are usually planned months in advance of the actual moves because a lot of work has to be done behind the scenes. In other words, there's no need to wait further to opening date to have an answer.


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MAH4546
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:28 am

Good point about maximizing use of the international gates. However, I don't think this is a situation were international gates are being used to theri maxium capacity. MIA isn't in desperate need for more of them.

Quoting DB777 (Reply 36):

Airline moves are usually planned months in advance of the actual moves because a lot of work has to be done behind the scenes. In other words, there's no need to wait further to opening date to have an answer.

True, but this is MIA we're talking about.
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DB777
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RE: MIA: Incentives Lure ATA; JetBlue Next

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:44 am

Correct, they will have a surplus of international gates after the South Terminal opens and they won't be desperate in that regards.

However, they will be desperate to keep enough international passengers flowing through that new FIS and the only way to do that is to put international arrivals on international gates. My staff and I went through plenty of grief in 1991 and succeeding years keeping the B-FIS busy enough with international pax after Eastern died and we took over all the gates on Concourse B. The feds absolutely positively will not staff a FIS unless they have sufficient flows of international passengers on an hour by hour basis for the designated hours of operation for that FIS. Worse yet, I'm sure that AA would raise absolute hell if reduced staffing and longer lines at the E-FIS were caused by inspectors standing around at the South Terminal FIS twiddling their thumbs waiting for international passengers to arrive.

Yep, it's MIA and I'm not saying that things can't change, especially with a new director onboard, but I'd be willing to bet a case of Heineken on it not changing in regards to Delta.  Smile


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