Alitalia744
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Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:06 pm

Hopefully this works. This is a brochure (with some errors) that was found on Politica Online - Aviazione Civile (an Italian Aviation Forum). Basically it outlines Alitalia's fleet plans by end of year 2008:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/FlyIce2/AZ_Fleet.jpg

The fleet is seen as having the following changes:

+4 777-243ER
+3 767-300ER
-5 MD-82
+12 EMBRAER 170/190

AZ is looking for long-haul capacity and seems poised to fill that need with the addition of 4 777 and 3 763s as an interim solution. They continue to look at the 787 aircraft and I've heard are planning on replacing their 763s with the 787 when the time is right.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

[Edited 2005-07-15 16:08:51]
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
mauriceb
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:09 pm

thanks!!! what suprisses me is that only 5 MD-80s will leave the fleet untill 2008 and that 5 MD-11's will stay untill then!! (guess 2 or 3 are full cargo)
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:10 pm

Umm... why are A320 and 767 reversed on that picture?? Thought the airline of Alitalia's magnitude would recognize the types of their own planes...

...that plus it's nice to see them getting more 777s Big grin
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Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:14 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 1):
and that 5 MD-11's will stay untill then!! (guess 2 or 3 are full cargo)

All 5 MD11s are going to be conv. to Cargo. The airline will use them for all cargo routes as the remainder 742's on lease are let go.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
Umm... why are A320 and 767 reversed on that picture?? Thought the airline of Alitalia's magnitude would recognize the types of their own planes...

Yeah, that and the ATR72 fleet has a picture of an ATR42. Mistakes are made. No big deal.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:18 pm

Nice to see Alitalia getting more Biggies! Does anyone know which routes these new aircraft will do?

P.S Hope to see them back at YUL!!! Big grin
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:20 pm

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 4):
Nice to see Alitalia getting more Biggies! Does anyone know which routes these new aircraft will do?

AZ is looking to restart HKG and LAX service last I heard. Both routes did well from a PAX and Cargo standpoint. Hopefully they'll find the fleet utilization to go back to SFO (Baw716 may have more info on this?)...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
AZ is looking to restart HKG and LAX service last I heard. Both routes did well from a PAX and Cargo standpoint. Hopefully they'll find the fleet utilization to go back to SFO (Baw716 may have more info on this?)...

Thanx for the info. I was wishing to see them back at YUL back but I don't think they'll come back in this decade.  Sad
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:42 pm

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 6):
Thanx for the info. I was wishing to see them back at YUL back but I don't think they'll come back in this decade.

Unfortunately, havn't heard anything about YUL yet. I know YYZ makes more money for them so I would continue to expect them to serve just YYZ for a while.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
flyyul
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:24 am

Dont worry StarAlliance.

When AZ released their 2004 master plan for future long-haul destinations, YUL and LAX were released as potential new destinations in North America.

So we'll see what happens.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 8):
Dont worry StarAlliance.

When AZ released their 2004 master plan for future long-haul destinations, YUL and LAX were released as potential new destinations in North America.

THANX MAN!!!! You made my day Big grin
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:48 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 8):
Dont worry StarAlliance.

When AZ released their 2004 master plan for future long-haul destinations, YUL and LAX were released as potential new destinations in North America.

So we'll see what happens.

My bad, you're right, just relooked at last year's masterplan. Who knows tho, things changed.

Presumeably, it will be a 4x weekly MXP-YUL and 2x FCO-YUL all on 763 metal.

LAX will get daily 777 from MXP and HKG will go 4x 777 MXP-HKG and 3x 777 FCO-MXP
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MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:57 am

Good news to see them expand. The talk of LAX-MXP resuming has consistent since before they even ended LAX-MXP, lol. Hopefully it comes to reality soon.

I would like to see them add a seasonal MIA-FCO. Maybe 2-3x a week. They cut that route a few years ago to make MIA-MXP daily. Milan is the bigger market from Miami, but there is definitley a market for Rome service, at least during the winter months. Here's hoping.
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as739x
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:00 am

Is it just me or is that 737-300ER just a A320 blown up ....lol. Gotta love it

made me laugh!

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
kappel
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:02 am

Too bad they won't be buying any a380's. I would love to see them in AZ colours, but they unfortunately don't have the routes.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:03 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 12):
Is it just me or is that 737-300ER just a A320 blown up ....lol. Gotta love it

made me laugh!

I think the 763 and A320 images are reversed.
a.
 
hjulicher
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:04 am

what are the chances of AZ starting service into DTW? Especially if NW can get the codeshare agreements it wants from the government.
LH 442
 
flyyul
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:31 am

Alitalia744,

Do you have a copy of that master plan?
 
Iberia340600
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:09 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 2):
Umm... why are A320 and 767 reversed on that picture?? Thought the airline of Alitalia's magnitude would recognize the types of their own planes...

LOL...thats the first thing I noticed. Can somebody say....dooh!! Nice litte mix up there Alitalia!

Oh, and another thing, why are all the cargo doors on the 777 painted on the left side of the plane? LOL

[Edited 2005-07-15 23:11:43]
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MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 15):
what are the chances of AZ starting service into DTW? Especially if NW can get the codeshare agreements it wants from the government.

A longshot. Northwest already flies DTW-FCO, and Alitalia doesn't even fly to Atlanta or Cincinnati, they put their code on Delta flights.

Alitalia isn't Air France. They don't have a huge long-haul fleet to start flying anywhere. If a partner can handle the route, they will leave it to their partner.

NW and AZ had an extensive codeshare agreement until Alitalia joined skyTeam and AZ never flew to DTW during that time. Instead, NW started DTW-FCO and DTW-MXP. The Milan flight performed horribly, however, and lasted only a few months.
a.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:22 am

Seems like a reasonable fleet plan - future growth is in longhaul. I wonder whether the additonal 763s will be acquired on the second hand market or if Boeing will offer AZ a very good deal on new 763s (especially if they were ordered in connection with additional 777s or a in connection with a 787 order) that would help keep the 767 line up and running.

This presentation seems to indicate that AZ has no futher A32X orders on the books and the MD80 will remain a backbone of the AZ shorthaul fleet for the coming years. The replacement of 70 aircraft in the 130-150 seat class will surely be a major battleground between A and B when AZ is ready to think about replacing its MD80s- that will be an interesting order to watch.
 
IDAWA
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:47 am

In matter of AZ fleet plans, I don't understand how they chose the MD-82s to be retired: instead of retiring the oldest ones, the early I-DAW* tail numbers, they retired many I-DAV* planes (younger than I-DAW*) together with the last I-DAW* (I-DAWW, I-DAWY, I-DAWZ).
It appears that the most of the retired planes were inherited from ATI, and they feature an all-economy Y164 seating. The oldest I-DAW* are in a mixed CY131 configuration, instead.

Any thoughts?

I-DAWA.
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 340, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC9, D10, M11, M80, 146, EM2, BEH, CRJ, DH8, L4T.
 
Luniew
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:19 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Quoting AS739X (Reply 12):
Is it just me or is that 737-300ER just a A320 blown up ....lol. Gotta love it

made me laugh!

I think the 763 and A320 images are reversed.

They didn't have a large pic of 767 so they used 320 instead of 767, it wouldn't look good if 320 was bigger than 767. 90% of ppl. wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyways.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting Luniew (Reply 21):
They didn't have a large pic of 767 so they used 320 instead of 767, it wouldn't look good if 320 was bigger than 767. 90% of ppl. wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyways.

That makes more sense Big grin
 
JrMafia90
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
I've heard are planning on replacing their 763s with the 787 when the time is right.

I wish they would do that. I was hoping they would get rid of their 767's but if they are getting new one's they will probably keep them for 10 years maybe.
 
JrMafia90
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 12):
Is it just me or is that 737-300ER just a A320 blown up ....lol. Gotta love it

I was just going to say the same thing! You can tell, Boeing doesn't have winglets like that.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:07 am

I think they said it a THOUSAND TIMES!!!!!! They switched the A320 and 767 around for the customers.
 
777ER
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:40 am

Wow, its awesome to see AZ will still have the MD11 in the fleet by 2008 Smile. Good to see the Mad Dogs will slowly be retired from the fleet, what will be their replacement, if any?
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baw716
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:59 pm

That sounds about right for the AZ fleet plan.

To some of you who may be thinking why AZ is not getting rid of the MD80s faster, here is the reason: MONEY. The reality is that AZ owns their MD80s and leases back about 1/2, so the other half are paid and probably nearly fully depreciated. However, they are still good aircraft and for short haul services (within Italy mostly), the MD80 will get the job done. This will allow them to place the A319/320 on the European/North Africa net and upgrade the product to those regions.

On Intercontinental, the 767 is the perfect long haul thin market aircraft. It is configured for 30/175, so at 205 seats, it is a low density aircraft. It is a marvelously comfortable aircraft, with the slim line seats, 32" of pitch seems like 33". In Magnifica, the Capri seat is still the seat of choice, which is made in Italy and while not as high tech as the 777 seat made by Recaro, I challenge anyone to match it for comfort. I have flown back and forth between San Francisco and Milan on the 767 and frankly, I love it. It is not too big that you get lost, but big enough that you don't feel crammed in a tuna can. Twelve hours to 12 1/2 back and forth (about 10 times in five years) in both J and Y and I've had no real problems.

The MD11 is for routes that have low passenger but higher cargo output. The aircraft is configured at 30/174, just like the 767, except its a combi, so the back 1/3 of the aircraft main deck is cargo. So for routes that have a lot of cargo to carry and a low number of passengers, the MD11 is a good fit.

The 777 is a high density aircraft. At 42/247, it has the largest Magnifica Class cabin, but also has the benefit of having the most sophisticated IFE of any airline. Touch screen entertainment that you can start and stop at any time. Games, movies and shorts, all available just by touching the screen, or operating the telephone pad which is in every seat. In Y class, the seat pitch is 32", but the recaro seat is wider, so the 18.5 in seat is about 1/2 in wider than in the 767 and the MD11.

You will see the 777 on most of the trunk intercontinental routes: MXP/FCO to JFK, and EWR in the summer, MIA, all South America, all Asia. Caracas is operated by the 767. Africa is operated by the MD11 as is the Gulf except THR, which is operated by a 767. ORD/BOS is a 767 year round. Between now and 2008, you will see expansion by AZ back into the west coast market, probably LAX with a 777, SFO may come back with a 777 but not daily, there will be more Asian expansion as they build up MXP and FCO. They will expand first into new markets with the 767, test it..if it does well, then it will upgauge to the MD11 or the 767 based on the growth the of the market. Having the MD11 and the 777 together gives them the flexibility to move in either direction based on growth.

Its a solid fleet plan. The key however is not to grow too quickly. SFO will be a difficult market to reenter because the timing of their departure from the market (just after 9/11) and the length of time they have been out of the market has allowed people to settle into other travel patterns. However, with the correct feeder traffic, SFO could do well and AZ could once again have a solid presence on the west coast.

We built it before, depending on who they get to run it this time, it could be built again.

baw716
fmr Area Manager Northern California
Alitalia (SFOUVAZ)
1998-2002
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
yul332LX
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:42 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
My bad, you're right, just relooked at last year's masterplan. Who knows tho, things changed.

Presumeably, it will be a 4x weekly MXP-YUL and 2x FCO-YUL all on 763 metal.

YUL is not likely to happen in 2006.

The phase 2 of the 2005-2008 business plan has essentially been postponed by two years and the purchase of new long haul aircraft has been put on hold until 2007. AZ is now concentrating on improving its efficiency and productivity.

Most of the growth is now expected in 2007-2008; not in 2005-2006.
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kappel
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 26):
Wow, its awesome to see AZ will still have the MD11 in the fleet by 2008 .

Yeah, gotta love those MD11's!!
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:21 pm

I am surprised by 2008 they aren't looking at the 787 yet and are instead ordering 767s
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:16 pm

I personally think that AZ will not be competitive unless they try to concentrate daily long haul flights on a SINGLE hub, and move some domestic flights to MXP. This 2xweek GRU-FCO and 5xweek GRU-MXP is just a sabotage to their own hub. When will AZ realize something as simple as this?
 
HanginOut
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 31):
I personally think that AZ will not be competitive unless they try to concentrate daily long haul flights on a SINGLE hub, and move some domestic flights to MXP. This 2xweek GRU-FCO and 5xweek GRU-MXP is just a sabotage to their own hub. When will AZ realize something as simple as this?

Alitalia does know this, the problem is that of Italian politics. If Alitalia were to make MXP the hub, Southern Italians would be up in arms and Northern Italians would be just as upset if the hub was FCO. So to keep the peace, and the politicians off their backs, Alitalia is forced to run a dual hub system, even though it would be more efficient and profitable to run a single hub. Until the politicians back off, Alitalia will most likely be forced to keep its current dual hub system.  sigh 

HanginOut
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baw716
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RE: Alitalia's Fleet Plans - 2008 (Image Included)

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:10 pm

HanginOut,
Your assessment is dead on correct. Alitalia is stuck with a dual hub system for exactly that reason and that situation will not change. The hub should be at MXP, because of the fact that most Italian business is done in Milan. Since business travel is the high yield traffic, the draw must be to MXP.

However, since Rome is the true tourist destination, FCO becomes the major hub on a seasonal basis. From April to October, Alitalia can pretty well fill its flights to Rome and as a result, it is conceivable that connecting traffic can be driven over the Roman hub. The facilities at FCO are less user friendly than at MXP; especially if transiting from an intercontinental flight to a domestic one. However, especially to southern Italian destinations and to the Middle East and Northern Africa, transiting Rome shaves a couple of hours off the total trip time from most areas of the world.

The trick is to schedule aircraft around the peaks and valleys of traffic volume to the two hubs. If AZ can get really efficient at scheduling their flights in and out of the hubs so that they can maximize their unique efficiencies, then a dual hub system could work...especially if AZ runs a good shuttle service between the two airports (which they currently do).

Don't count AZ out with dual hubs. Somehow, the Italians always seem to turn something bad into something that works. A dual hub system is no different. They just have to work harder at it.

baw716
fmr Area Manager Northern California
Alitalia (SFOUVAZ)
1998-2002
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998