hjulicher
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DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:24 am

I know I've asked about this, but there are new pictures up on metroairport.com site about the new terminal to be built. What are your reactions? I wish you could enlarge the pictures.

http://www.metroairport.com/images/PR_01_1in-50ft_big.gif

http://www.metroairport.com/images/PR_02_1in-50ft_big.gif
LH 442
 
luv2fly
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:31 am

Having lived and grown up in the DATA area until 1999 I can tell you this, it is a long time coming. I moved to CLUE in late 1999 and was impressed about how nice the CLUE airport was compared to the old DATA airport, now the new NW terminal blows me away!
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N766UA
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:11 am

So this will house the rest of the carriers left stranded at the old Smith terminal, huh? DTW's gunna be a hell of an airport when it's all done.... not that it isn't already.
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broncoguy
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:43 am

That terminal looks really skinny. Is there room for shops and restaurants in this skinny terminal? Imagine walking through there when everyone has flights leaving at the same time.
 
nwhpdtw
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:54 am

It looks to me like those widebody gates (left of the diagram) are right on top of Smith concourse C. Are they going to have close concourse C before the new terminal is ready, or are those widebody gates not going to be online when the new terminal opens, or is there something else I'm not seeing?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:36 am

Concorse c? Do you mean the old concours C that was torn down or are you talking about the construction at the Worldgateway?

It is my understanding that when the new north terminal is completed, BA, RJ, and LH will move out of the Worldgateway and over to the North Terminal.
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neilalp
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:02 pm

Clipper,

If you look on the photos the red outlines of the current Spirit 'C' councourse are shown under the International gates. My guess is that the new terminal will be built, minus the International gate area, then the Spirit councourse gets taken down, then the Int. gates get created.
 
fjnovak1
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:30 pm

I think that with Delta's moving over to the World Gateway and their gates opening up, plus the two or so gates open over in the Southwest area of Terminal A, perhaps Spirit could make do over there in the interim..or maybe the int'l gates will just come online later
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hjulicher
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:10 pm

I don't know about the international gates, apparently there will be two immigrations and customs areas in DTW. Sort of ineffective, but I guess the only way. Yes, I think the domestic airlines will move first and then that wing will be built once the old C concourse is demolished. BTW, since frontier arrived, the've taken Delta's old spot, and use their old ticket counter.

The terminal does seem skinny, and it's strange that they are not building it further out on the tarmac for future expansion. The whole back side of the building could pontentially accomodate more gates. Just like NW's McNamara Terminal.
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:41 pm

Interesting. This has just changed within a period of a month. Unfortunately I don't have the old design to show you which was just up on the website less than a month ago.

I did a research project on this actually for my class at Embry Riddle and I talked to a few of the people involved with the design of this project. These are some of the facts.

a. will have 27 gates
b. Two of the gates will be for widebodies
c. Will have an FIS facility
D. Gates are going to be divided up this way:
Signatory carriers:
Spirit: 9 gates
Southwest: 3
United: 3
USAirways: 2
America West: 2
American: 3

The other five gates are used by the non signatory and international carriers. They are swing gates with access to the customs area (2 of which are widebody). Spirit will use one for its Cancun and future international flights. Frontier, Indy Air, USA3000 will also use these swing gates since they are non signatory.

The Berry Terminal will be closed and knocked down since it is losing money on a daily basis since it is subsidized by landing fees.

There was an issue with Northwest not wanting an FIS facility in the North Terminal since they are the "800 lb gorilla" at DTW and have a lot of the voting power, however the others were able to convince Northwest that it would help lower its landing fees by moving everything into the new building and demolishing the Berry.

LH,BA and RJ will move to the North Terminal and share the widebody gates. Only Sky Team airlines will use the Midfield Terminal.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:03 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 9):
Interesting. This has just changed within a period of a month. Unfortunately I don't have the old design to show you which was just up on the website less than a month ago.

I did a research project on this actually for my class at Embry Riddle and I talked to a few of the people involved with the design of this project. These are some of the facts.

Nascar,

I have the old pics saved, but I can't post them. If you contact me I can send them to you to post or is there someone else who can help with this.

dtwclipper
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Boeing7E7
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting Broncoguy (Reply 3):
That terminal looks really skinny. Is there room for shops and restaurants in this skinny terminal? Imagine walking through there when everyone has flights leaving at the same time.

The span established for each gate permit the narrow concourse. You only need about a 40-50' deep hold room and a 40-50' corridor.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 9):
LH,BA and RJ will move to the North Terminal and share the widebody gates. Only Sky Team airlines will use the Midfield Terminal.

Only 2 widebody gates strikes me as a little shortsighted. As it stands now, LH and BA are on the ground at the same time (LH lands at 16:15 and BA lands at 15:50). It sort of screws up non-Skyteam international growth. What if LH wants to add a second daily or a MUC flight, for example? With the flexibilty to build anything, a few more widebody gates would seem prudent.
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hjulicher
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:38 am

Well since the widebody gates are near the "potential future expansion" areas, I guess if that ever became a concern they could quickly build more. But in terms of international traffic, I doubt DTW will see new international traffic outside of skyteam. Exactly what international airlines do you see services DTW. LOT? I think DTW will be a fairly international airport, but with Spirit who is already flying to mexico and carribean, I don't think any new carribean airlines will serve detroit, and aeromexico over mexicana, and they will use the nw worldgateway. THe only other potential airlines, if any would be, and they would be skyteam. AZ, KE and in my dreams SU (whenever they will join). If you have other speculations, please respond.

About how the terminal will be built. I think right now Spirit does not use all of concourse C. They have access to all gates, but not enough flights to use all the gates. So technically, Spirit can use one side of the concourse while the new terminal is being built, and then once built, they move, the pier is destroyed, and the jetways, are added.
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dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Cubsrule-Only 2 widebody gates strikes me as a little shortsighted.What you must remember is that in order to get customs at the new terminal, the county had to agree with Northwest demands that for each International gate placed at the new terminal, they had to eliminate two domestic gates. So even with the new terminal that NWA will never use, the 800 pound gorilla still gets its way
 
dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 14):
So even with the new terminal that NWA will never use, the 800 pound gorilla still gets its way

And what is wrong with NW getting its way @ DTW? With out NW we would be a backwater airport with non-stops to a few hubs. Without NW we would still have just the Davey, Smith and Berry sewers, oh I mean terminals.

With Northwest, we got a world class terminal, non-stops to Asia, Europe, and most everywhere in the US!


All power to the Legacy Carriers
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dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting DTWClipper-{With Northwest, we got a world class terminal} And a hell of alot of taxpayer money. Yes NWA paid for 80% of the Midfield, but tell me where that justifies them placing demands on the design of the North terminal. stifling competition is not a good thing for local airfares. Just check all of the studies done on the high costs of flying in this area because of the backdoor deals that Ed McNamara made with NWA. I understand that had it not been for these deals that yes, we probrably would still be stuck with the old terminals, but that still doesn't make it right
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:52 am

Interesting images.

It looks like it will be quite a long terminal. It will go from near the Berry terminal (in the middle of the old Mesabaland golfcourse) all the way to where concourse C is. Interesting how Spirit & Southwest get the gates closest to the terminal. The widebody gates & AA's will be quite a distance away.
 
hjulicher
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
The widebody gates & AA's will be quite a distance away.

Yes they will be at the ends of the terminal. But at least there will be two moving walkways in each direction.

Strange though that USairways and AmericaWest are next to eachother. Wouldn't it make sense for America West to switch with United. I know they are partners, but still. At least American will be close to the British airways gate. And the three gates to the left of spirit will go to Independence Air, Frontier, and the charters. Don't some of the charters fly to mexico and stuff, won't they need the swing int'l gates?

There is also room for 5 more gates, so I guess there is adequate room for growth.

I still don't understand though why they made the terminal so long. Is there not enough tarmac for the terminal to be positioned so that gates can be built on either side of the building. Wouldn't this reduce walking times, and allow for more growth if needed. The north terminal sort of reminds me of one of those small airports with a couple of gates, just really long. I hope it doesn't look cheesy inside.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
With out NW we would be a backwater airport with non-stops to a few hubs.

Do you really think that if DTW wasn't NW's hub, we wouldn't be a hub. I just don't see us not being a hub. DTW isn't a perfect location, but it is better than CLE, or CVG. I'm sure some other airline would have chosen DTW if NW hadn't after deregulation. And, we would still be an international airport. BA and LF would have still had flights to DTW, and didn't Delta have an international flight out of DTW.
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Cubsrule
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 13):
If you have other speculations, please respond.

With all the connecting traffic to the mid-east (hence the RJ flight), I wouldn't think a MUC flight would be out of the question, especially if LH is forced to grow more at MUC due to the NIMBYs at FRA... the world's getting more populous- it won't be tomorrow or next week or next month, but DTW will get more international service at some point.
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dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):
and didn't Delta have an international flight out of DTW

That was a carry over from Pan Am. They took over DTW-LGW (Pan Am used to fly DTW-LHR, but that is best saved for another thread), but could not support it because they did not have enough O & D traffic out of Detroit, and NW took over the rights.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):

Do you really think that if DTW wasn't NW's hub, we wouldn't be a hub

As a 16-20 year old, you don't remember when DTW wasn't much of a HUB at all.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):
BA and LF would have still had flights to DTW, and didn't Delta have an international flight out of DTW.

BA was not always non-stop, you either stoped in YUL or IAD.

LF has never been to DTW. I think you mean LH.
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joeman
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):
Do you really think that if DTW wasn't NW's hub, we wouldn't be a hub. I just don't see us not being a hub. DTW isn't a perfect location, but it is better than CLE, or CVG. I'm sure some other airline would have chosen DTW if NW hadn't after deregulation.

I agree that DTW would undoubtedly have been a hub for some airline if not NW even though it is not a given right. As a matter of fact, it probably would have been for either for DL or CO with DL being the more likely of the two given their prior history there. How is it a better location than CLE which is practically right on top of it or CVG for that matter?
 
dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting DTWCLIPPER-As a 16-20 year old, you don't remember when DTW wasn't much of a HUB at all. Well I'm not 20 and I remember when DTW wasn't much of anything,before the Berry and even the Davey for that matter, but there again I remember when I walked up the rear airstairs on a brand new Delta DC-9-10 at ATL because it wasn't anything either or ORD or TPA for that matter,and flying out of DAL because DFW wasn't even built. You can't compare traffic from 25 years ago to any Airport in this country today. I too believe that had NWA not set up shop at DTW then somebody else would have, whether it be AA, DAL, CO,or even Southwest for that matter. The population base of southeast Michigan today is to big to ignore, somebody would have come in. Believe it or not we had more International carriers then, than we do now.Remember we had Pan-Am,AeroMexico,Air Jamaica,Alitalia,British Airways,TWA and NWA all offering Non-stops and connecting service to points throughout Europe and Asia. I'm not trying to argue with you, but you have to compare apples to apples when you speak of the way things used to be, as to what they are today
 
dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 22):
Remember we had Pan-Am,AeroMexico,Air Jamaica,Alitalia,British Airways,TWA and NWA all offering Non-stops and connecting service to points throughout Europe and Asia.

Pan Am, Non-stop to LHR, later LGW, prior to that it was a stop in BOS.

Alitalia? When did AZ have pax service to DTW? Never. The had cargo service to bring over the Cadillac Alliente.

BA, as I said before it was not always non-stop, you either stooped in IAD or YUL.

Air Jamaica....very short lived, same for AeroMexico.

NWA flew to DCA, JFK MSP and a few other points, but DTW was no gateway for them.

UA, AA where the big boys here, but nothing like a hub operation.


Sure, DTW would have been a hub for someone else, but Wayne county would treat them the same as they do NW. NW should get all of the perks it is warranted in Detroit, They have invested a ton of money here.
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KarlB737
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:45 am

I can remember attending the "Open House" for the Smith Terminal. The parking lot for the cars was just gravel. Notice I said lot. There was no deck anywhere. I used to see aircraft fly ONLY on what today is 22L and 9L and their reciprocal ends as well.

It will be weird for me when the Smith Terminal is gone.
 
dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting DTWClipper- {Alitalia? When did Alitalia have pax service to Detroit ?Never}. You had better do your homework on that statement. Alitalia flew both DC-8-62 and B747 service Nonstop to Rome. Aeromexico was Hardly shortlived too,from 1964 to the mid 70's is hardly shortlived. And by the way the Alitalia flight numbers were 674 and 675

[Edited 2005-07-17 03:51:45]
 
dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:00 am

DTWClipper- heres a little more info on International service in the early 70's at Metro Aeromexico flight numbers were 432 and 433, BA's were 524 and 523. PanAm's were clipper 55 and 54 and were interline service with Northwest.
 
broncoguy
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:00 am

How old are the Smith and Berry terminals?

Is there a timeline for when this terminal will be completed?
 
dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:04 am

LC Smith-1958 Davey 1966, Berry 1974
 
broncoguy
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:05 am

Wow, i didnt think that the Smith was that old, I was thinking it was more in the 70's or 80's
 
dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 25):
Quoting DTWClipper- {Alitalia? When did Alitalia have pax service to Detroit ?Never}. You had better do your homework on that statement. Alitalia flew both DC-8-62 and B747 service Nonstop to Rome. Aeromexico was Hardly shortlived too,from 1964 to the mid 70's is hardly shortlived. And by the way the Alitalia flight numbers were 674 and 675

Can you please give me the source on AZ pax service to DTW, if I am wrong I apologize. I can find no mention of it.
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dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:07 am

I know Sabena flew to DTW for a short time as well.

What do you mean Pan Am were interline with NW? It was not an interchange, they were using their own equipment on it, please clarify that.

Thanks!
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dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:23 am

Can't remember how they were crewed but clippers 55 and 54 showed on Northwest timetables at the time. Clipper 55 flew on to MSP from DTW and 54 stopped at DTW on the return. As far as Alitalia, it is all from memory. As I recall Alitalia 675 arrived right about the time that the Speedbird came in. Used to watch it almost daily as it came in right over where I lived and also where I worked. But trust me on that one, as they did indeed provide pass service to DTW. I can't recall start and ending dates but the switch to 74's happened in 72. Do you remember United flight 990? That was Uniteds 747 early morning service to ORD and on to HNL
 
dtwclipper
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 32):
crewed but clippers 55 and 54 showed on Northwest timetables at the time. Clipper 55 flew on to MSP from DTW and 54 stopped at DTW on the return

This sounds like it was a PA/NW interchange.

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 32):
Do you remember United flight 990? That was Uniteds 747 early morning service to ORD and on to HNL

This I don't remember, but I used to take UA non-stop DC-10 to SFO in the mid-70's.

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 32):
As I recall Alitalia 675 arrived right about the time that the Speedbird came in. Used to watch it almost daily as it came in right over where I lived and also where I worked

This I just don't remember seeing at all. I remember the BOAC VC-10's back before the Berry was built, but AZ other then Cargo is a blank.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):
I still don't understand though why they made the terminal so long. Is there not enough tarmac for the terminal to be positioned so that gates can be built on either side of the building. Wouldn't this reduce walking times, and allow for more growth if needed. The north terminal sort of reminds me of one of those small airports with a couple of gates, just really long. I hope it doesn't look cheesy inside.

I don't believe there is enough distance between the existing roadway and the parallel taxiway for 4R/22L. In order to have gates on both sides there would need to be enough room for the alleyway (which would need to be wide enough for aircraft to pass each other, aircraft parking, the terminal, and enough room on the outside to pushback without blocking the taxiway.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:23 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
Nascar,

I have the old pics saved, but I can't post them. If you contact me I can send them to you to post or is there someone else who can help with this.

dtwclipper

Yeah I still have the pictures in my research paper I did a few weeks back. I can't post them either.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Only 2 widebody gates strikes me as a little shortsighted. As it stands now, LH and BA are on the ground at the same time (LH lands at 16:15 and BA lands at 15:50). It sort of screws up non-Skyteam international growth. What if LH wants to add a second daily or a MUC flight, for example? With the flexibilty to build anything, a few more widebody gates would seem prudent.

As of right now there isn't a huge demand for international widebody service. Yes there has been talk of Emirates coming to DTW, as well as a couple others rumored to come such as LOT etc. There are plenty of more available times to bring in planes. If LH wanted to bring in a MUC flight, why couldn't they bring it in around 12p or 1p? Or a flight around 7p?

Even if they brought it in around the same time as the others, remember the Smith Terminal is going to be demolished, and until they decide what to definitely do with the demolished Smith Terminal, there will be plenty of parking spots available.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 13):
Well since the widebody gates are near the "potential future expansion" areas, I guess if that ever became a concern they could quickly build more. But in terms of international traffic, I doubt DTW will see new international traffic outside of skyteam. Exactly what international airlines do you see services DTW. LOT? I think DTW will be a fairly international airport, but with Spirit who is already flying to mexico and carribean, I don't think any new carribean airlines will serve detroit, and aeromexico over mexicana, and they will use the nw worldgateway. THe only other potential airlines, if any would be, and they would be skyteam. AZ, KE and in my dreams SU (whenever they will join). If you have other speculations, please respond.

If new Caribbean airlines flew to DTW, such as Air Jamaica, which the president of the airline actually stated in one of the Airline magazines (Airliners, Airways etc) that DTW was one of the places he would like to fly to; they most likely would not be flying widebodies to DTW. DTW is going to have five county owned gates, like I said, two are widebody, three are narrow body and are swing gates. However these swing gates with access to customs etc will also be used by Frontier, Indy Air, USA3000 and the seasonal charters. However, when they are not in use they could be used by narrow body international carriers like Air Jamaica, Mexicana etc.

The only widebody new service I see at DTW is possibly a new LH flight to Munich, EK and maybe LOT down the road, perhaps another Middle Eastern carrier. There are plenty of times in the day that those wide body gates won't be utilized. If DTW started seeing flights from Asian carriers, most likely those would come in the morning well before LH or BA arrived.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):
Strange though that USairways and AmericaWest are next to eachother. Wouldn't it make sense for America West to switch with United. I know they are partners, but still. At least American will be close to the British airways gate. And the three gates to the left of spirit will go to Independence Air, Frontier, and the charters. Don't some of the charters fly to mexico and stuff, won't they need the swing int'l gates?

There are five swing international gates, three narrow and two wide.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):
As a 16-20 year old, you don't remember when DTW wasn't much of a HUB at all.

Hell, I am 30 and I don't remember DTW much before the Republic hub

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 22):
Remember we had Pan-Am,AeroMexico,Air Jamaica,Alitalia,British Airways,TWA and NWA all offering Non-stops and connecting service to points throughout Europe and Asia. I'm not trying to argue with you, but you have to compare apples to apples when you speak of the way things used to be, as to what they are today

I dont recall TWA Europe service. I do recall Pan Am- I recall seeing 747s, A310s and L1011s at DTW in the mid 80s. I also recall seasonal charters from JAT and LOT, as well as Icelandair. Trans America, and some other defunct charter companies also used to fly to DTW a lot on charter basis.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 31):
know Sabena flew to DTW for a short time as well.

I remember seeing Sabena at DTW around 1985-86 flying in DC-10s and 747s. I have a pic of a Sabena DC-10 at DTW, but I took it when I was like 10 years old with a crap camera and it would never make it on a.net.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:28 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Only 2 widebody gates strikes me as a little shortsighted.

When you remove the hub operation of NWA, DTW would not need more than about 40 gates in total based on the population base, level of tourism and O&D traffic. There's no need for it. There's nothing short sighted about it.
 
dtw9
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:37 am

QuotingNASCARAirforce { I dont recall TWA Europe service.} TWA's Sept 9 1982 system timetable shows flight 700 as being one-stop service to Heathrow. No change of plane, just a stop at JFK.Flight was operated by 707. It left DTW at 336pm arriving LHR at 645am local time
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 18):
Strange though that USairways and AmericaWest are next to eachother.

Not strange at all, considering that by the time this terminal is operational, US Airways and America West will be one and the same.
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:59 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 38):
Not strange at all, considering that by the time this terminal is operational, US Airways and America West will be one and the same.

Question, will they still need 4 gates? because America West and US Airways are supposed to get 2 gates each.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:44 am

Glad to see DTW's plans are getting more clearly defined. I too am surprised that the North Terminal is simply linear with parking on one side. It doesn't look to me like the alley would have to be too wide on the back for narrowbodies. The new WN terminal at BWI has a tight alley, but 73G's fit back there just fine. Gates facing the roadway would simply have to be for narrowbodies, like they are at the WorldGateway.

Dtwclipper asks, "why shouldn't NW get their way at DTW? All power to the legacy carriers." What goes on north of the WorldGateway is none of Northwest's business, and shame on corrupt Wayne County for allowing them to limit construction there in any way. All power to the LCC's, the real reformers who get people in the air!

Jim
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NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 40):
Dtwclipper asks, "why shouldn't NW get their way at DTW? All power to the legacy carriers." What goes on north of the WorldGateway is none of Northwest's business, and shame on corrupt Wayne County for allowing them to limit construction there in any way. All power to the LCC's, the real reformers who get people in the air!

Its called Majority in Interest. It doesn't just happen at DTW, it happens at every airport with an 800 lb gorilla

Without naming names, as part of my research project, I spoke with a high up person at Spirit Airlines who is heavilly involved in the North Terminal committee, that Sept 27, 2001 agreement appears to have been blown out of proportion somewhat.

Of course- North Terminal at the time limited to 29 gates, one wide body takes the place of two narrowbody and no FIS at North Terminal

However:

It was proven to be much cheaper to close the Berry since the Berry is subsidized by landing fees including NW landing fees. Just tell NW that their landing fees were going to the Berry and that is enough to convince them. The two terminals operate as seperate entities- money made at the Mac goes to the Mac, money made at the Smith and later the North goes to the North. Landing fees will not subsidize the international gates at the north terminal because the gates will be used by a non signatory carrier if an international carrier isn't there such as Frontier, charters, USA3000, Indy etc.

Northwest doesn't have 85% of the voting power at DTW, more like 75%. For weighted majority, you need 85% of voting power. The tenants of the Smith Terminal told Northwest, we will approve your Concourse B and C expansion, if you let us have the FIS in the North. Convincing them of closing the Berry helped too as well as BA and LH moving out once the North is built.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11661
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 36):

When you remove the hub operation of NWA, DTW would not need more than about 40 gates in total based on the population base, level of tourism and O&D traffic. There's no need for it. There's nothing short sighted about it.

The point was that with such a large capital investment (i.e. a totally new terminal), it's prudent to build for more than is necessary. Cities of similar population, such as Boston and Atlanta, have far more widebody gates for non-hub carriers, and ATL is undertaking further expansion aimed at stimulation of international O&D. Hell, little CLT has 10 common use widebody gates. It costs much less to put them in now then to have to tear things down to put them in later.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hjulicher
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:26 pm

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:59 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 38):
Strange though that USairways and AmericaWest are next to eachother.

Not strange at all, considering that by the time this terminal is operational, US Airways and America West will be one and the same.

I meant to say that they aren't next to eachother. United is between UsAir and America West.

I think there is the possibility of adding more widebody swing gates because there is room for extra taxistands which are for future growth but won't be added because of the gate restriction. This way, let's say a new gate could be added at another location because the two by the international area could be converted.

Secondly, I don't DTW will see as much growth in international traffic as ATL. Although DTW has grown, in the most recent realeases by ACI, JFK and Houston have surpassed DTW in passenger traffic even though DTW grew for the past three years.
LH 442
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6187
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:20 pm

Whether you like it or not, the greater Metro Detroit area is not growing, in fact it is slightly strinking. The only growth in the region is due to outward sprawl with no net increase of people into the area. Hence not a growing O&D base. The growth has come from increased hub passenger enplanements, and that spurred by low fare growth.

All this talk about new international carriers is a joke. DTW doesn't want to be stuck with a DFW Concourse D (build it and they will come). 10 common-use widebody gates would be a waste. Pretty much all charters now are narrowbodies anyways. As for NK, beginning this fall CUN will be able to pre-clear passengers, eliminating the need for an FIS gate for that flight.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:27 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 9):

I would not use the word FACTS.
Try plan. The building is still in final DESIGN phase. By the time it opens, some of those carriers may have changed their route structure or may not be around. So, who knows?
Southwest has stated, more than once, it will go from present six gates to four in the new building. That, understanding their growth, may change.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:00 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 45):
I would not use the word FACTS.
Try plan. The building is still in final DESIGN phase. By the time it opens, some of those carriers may have changed their route structure or may not be around. So, who knows?
Southwest has stated, more than once, it will go from present six gates to four in the new building. That, understanding their growth, may change.

Actually, Southwest I believe only leases four gates at the Smith Terminal, those other two gates (formerly leased by Spirit) are owned by the WCAA (Wayne County Airport Authority) and not being leased to anyone as far as I know.

Southwest is PLANNING on leasing only THREE gates at the new North Terminal, but at the same time they are PLANNING on keeping the same level of operations.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:13 pm

NASCARairforce...thanks for that update.
 cheerful 
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:36 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 44):
Whether you like it or not, the greater Metro Detroit area is not growing, in fact it is slightly strinking. The only growth in the region is due to outward sprawl with no net increase of people into the area.

Not sure if I agree with that.

Metro: 5,456,428 ('00 census) Vs. 5,187,171 ('90 census) shows growth of 269257 in the region.

True, the City itself is still shrinking.

City: 951,270 ('00 census)
1,027,974 ('90 census
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squirrel83
Posts: 1219
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:28 pm

RE: DTW North Terminal Project

Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:12 pm

Below are the new pictures for the New North Terminal at DTW . . .
This preliminary design for Metro Airport's new $443-million North Terminal, scheduled to open in 2008, shows a light-filled structure.












Instead, look for a gleaming glass rectangle that will top the North Terminal, the final construction project that -- coupled with the 3-year-old McNamara Terminal -- will give metro Detroiters an entirely new airport in less than a decade.

In preliminary designs, the first introduced to the public, architect Gensler unveiled a bright, airy look that will replace the Smith's dimly lit hallways and low ceilings. The design for the half-mile-long terminal appears similar to the McNamara Terminal's.

The building's centerpiece is a 660-foot-long horizontal glass rectangle that serves as a foyer. On their way to the ticket counter, departing passengers will walk through the high-ceilinged foyer, which stands 45 feet above the departures curb. Arriving passengers will pass through it as they walk from their gates to an escalator down to baggage claim.

The intent is to allow natural light into the terminal, said Bill Hartman, Gensler's design principal and principal in charge of the project.

The $443-million project will give most of the airlines a new home. It will hold 26 gates for carriers including Spirit, Southwest Airlines and Independence Airlines, and can expand to 31 gates.

Upstairs will be the ticket counters, e-ticket machines and gates.

Downstairs, the terminal will hold a customs and immigration area, baggage handling and screening rooms and five baggage carousels, with room for a sixth.

The project is slated to open in 2008, despite concerns that the airport's hub carrier, Northwest Airlines Inc., is considering a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. Airport management would discuss slowing down the project if Northwest files for bankruptcy, said airport spokesman Michael Conway.

To make way for the new terminal, the airport plans to demolish the Davey Terminal, home to Northwest before it moved into the $1.2-billion McNamara Terminal in 2002.

The airport has hired Ann Arbor-based Environmental Consulting Group for $250,000 to remove asbestos from the vacant Davey Terminal and Marriott Hotel, which also will be demolished. The Davey is slated to be demolished in September, Conway said.

The Smith Terminal also is scheduled for demolition, but not until the new terminal is built.

http://www.freep.com/money/business/airport29e_20050729.htm
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