DfwRevolution
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Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:44 pm

The past few W.A. threads have had a rather nasty tendency to rapidly unravel into an "it's either my way or the highway" slug-fest with little room for compromise on either side. If you need any confirmation, I'll point out some of these past and current threads-
WN Just As Guilty As AA, DFW (by SonOfACaptain Jul 16 2005 in Civil Aviation) Mike Boyd On DFW's Recent Poll (by OPNLguy Jul 11 2005 in Civil Aviation) RE: DFW Survey Says 85% Want WN At DFW (by Boeing7E7 Jul 11 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Today, the Dallas Morning News published an editorial called "The Third Way," in which they reject the "Freedom to Fly Act" proposed by Rep. Sam Johnson and lobby for a compromised plan to deregulate the metroplex airports. The article is available on page 2F of the Sunday paper, or available here.

I think it has a good degree of rationality that has certainly made me reconsider my stance on the W.A., so I thought I would open the topic up for discussion:

The Wright Amendment: We propose phase-out of restrictions

Saturday, July 16, 2005

The numbers grow so large they make our heads hurt. Hundreds and thousands. Millions and billions. Dollars to doughnuts, this can't be so complicated.

The Dallas Morning News editorial board plowed through columns of figures, bar graphs, fever tables and pie charts and spent hours in detailed, passionate conversation with interested parties, all to seek an answer to what has become an intractable riddle:

What to do, if anything, about the Wright amendment?

Human instinct is to seek a simple, straightforward answer to a complicated question. Isn't a deal, after all, a deal? Don't changed and changing times require a change in law? Isn't American Airlines vs. Southwest Airlines the same as Coke vs. Pepsi, McDonald's vs. Burger King, Wal-Mart vs. Target? Yes, it is. No, it isn't. Lift Wright. Leave Wright alone.

There's another way. Forced to choose between the interests of the nation's two leading airlines, two of our region's outstanding corporate citizens, we pick both.

We propose a two-year moratorium on attempts to alter the Wright amendment, followed by a common-sense three-year phase-out of its restrictions – a five-year program that provides a stable road to an unfettered air market.

We therefore reject the Jeb Hensarling-Sam Johnson bill that would immediately abolish the Wright amendment, which (with its Shelby cousin) restricts flights from Dallas Love Field to Texas and seven neighboring states. We agree with American and Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport that such a dramatic change would significantly damage the region's economy.

We also reject the idea that a law written is a law forever. Remember when it was illegal in Texas to sell frying pans and Popsicles on a Sunday? Is Ma Bell still the only telephone company?

Our timetable would allow American and D/FW Airport two years to prepare for the phase-out – time to restructure their business models and recalibrate their future plans. An orderly implementation would assure the region adapts constructively to the effects of the coming change.

Recognizing that the details are better left to the legislators who would write this law – led, we hope, by members of the North Texas delegation – allow us to suggest:

•After the moratorium, the first thing to go is the through-ticketing and checked-baggage restrictions from Love Field. A passenger who wants to fly beyond the current Wright/Shelby boundaries should not have to buy two tickets or fight through two security checks.

•All parties sign a binding document to affirm the Love Field Master Plan as written, including the 32-gate maximum and restrictions on late-night takeoffs and landings. Love's neighbors, who endured years of dish-rattling noise and elevated pollution concerns, have a higher stake than other North Texans and should be included in the solution.

•As part of the phase-out, a gradual increase in the number of states an airline could serve from Love, perhaps by one region per year, until the entire continental U.S. is open.
Good for airlines

The Wright amendment was a sane, logical step when enacted in 1979. It brought a shaky peace to the North Texas air market. It allowed Southwest to carve a niche at Love while American built the nation's premier airline and its fortress hub at D/FW.

This newspaper has long supported Wright as the proper way to support D/FW's growth and development. The airport, in turn, has done its part by fueling the region's growth and development.

Today, D/FW is far from a start-up airport. Its influence isn't limited to jobs and aviation-related economic activity. As an international airport, it's a major player in markets that other airlines would not serve from Love Field.

D/FW is the world's third-busiest airport measured by landings and the sixth-busiest for passengers. It served 59.4 million passengers last year from about 140 gates and continues to grow. American's traffic has increased since Delta's downsizing.

American is expected to have more than 800 daily flights from D/FW this year, up from 700 in 2004, in effect replacing most of the daily flights lost. (Southwest offers about 120 daily departures from Love Field.)

The quality and quantity of American's service will help it survive the transition period and emerge stronger and more competitive. We appreciate its concerns that any change to Wright will diminish its D/FW hub, but we believe it will adapt to the new, freer landscape and thrive. Similarly, an overall increase in passengers to and from North Texas can only help D/FW Airport in the long run.
And for consumers

When fares fall – and this is one of the few facts not in dispute – travelers from Weatherford to Tyler and Sherman to Hillsboro will benefit.

Although American argues that multiple-airport regions offer fewer flight choices, we believe North Texas' growth will attract more point-to-point airline competition to the big airport. Travelers in markets dominated by a single carrier at a single airport also face the nation's highest airfares.

As it turns out, the equation is not so complicated. Lower fares will make air travel a more logical option for more people. More demand will drive up the number of flights. Heightened competition, as always, will spawn innovation and more efficient use of resources.

The Wright amendment unnaturally restrains free-market competition, which amounts to protectionism. Love, already limited by the Master Plan and a landlocked location, is the only U.S. airport that dramatically limits how airlines serve other cities. Consumers are the losers.

Ultimately, when asked to choose between American and Southwest, we choose both airlines' ability to compete in a freer market for the air-travel dollars of North Texans.

In the long run, everyone wins.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:49 pm

This does make a lot of sense, and I have no doubt that WN would go for this if it were offered to them.

However, DFW would not agree to this, or anything else that would ever end the Wright Ammendment Restrictions.

WN has already stated they would support a gradual phase-out of the restrictions, and DFW is staunchly opposed to any changes.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 1):
This does make a lot of sense, and I have no doubt that WN would go for this if it were offered to them.

However, DFW would not agree to this, or anything else that would ever end the Wright Ammendment Restrictions.

WN has already stated they would support a gradual phase-out of the restrictions, and DFW is staunchly opposed to any changes.

This shows, as I believe, the DFW is the selfish party in this equation. WN is much more willing to compromise, and this plan, as outlined by the DMN is about what I had in my head for what would be a good idea. I think though, that they should allow connections from DAL to non-WA states through WA states immediately.

DFW should see the writing on the wall and try to compormise with a plan like this before it is simply elimated in one fell swoop--which they seem to be deathly afraid of.
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
avek00
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
This shows, as I believe, the DFW is the selfish party in this equation.

Bull - SOUTHWEST is the idiosyncratic party that is raising a fuss because it doesn't want to play by the rule that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE lives with.
Live life to the fullest.
 
workbench
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:12 am

As soon as AA and DFW can get over the fact that the WA IS going away, the sooner all this needless bickering will stop. The WA should have never been put in place. It is AAnti competitive and it serves no purpose other than to protect AArogant AAirways. I flew on WN this weekend to SAN and the flight attendant made an announcement that about the WA being repealed would lead to airfares nation wide dropping up to 50%.! Now that is a company looking out for its customers.! Bravo WN.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:13 am

While I'd prefer to see the Federal government simply repeal Wright and Shelby with a two or three-year delay, and let the local leadership sort out what's to be done with DAL and DFW without any further Federal involvement* (which is what should have happened in 1979), a phased repeal like this would be a reasonable comprimise.

I wouldn't have the Feds incorporate the acceptance of the Love master plan or anything like that in the phase-out, though - again, those are local issues and should be dealt with locally, with Federal involvement limited to safety or environmental issues, just as they are at all other airports.
 
workbench
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 5):
a phased repeal like this would be a reasonable comprimise.

I disagree, I think it should be dropped overnight. A phased in approach would be natrual, because it would take WN a year or so any way to take delivery of new airplanes and build up DAL.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:48 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
Bull - SOUTHWEST is the idiosyncratic party that is raising a fuss because it doesn't want to play by the rule that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE lives with.

What other airlines operate in airports with such idiosyncratic rules as DAL has, thanks to Wright? The answer is none. What is so wrong with WN fighting for the same rights other airlines get everywhere else, with some LOCAL restrictions (LGA, DCA permiters)?

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
KarlB737
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:30 am

Another disguise to continue to CONTROL FLIGHT LENGTHS for passengers in the other states. Proponents of the continuation of Wright believe that no one will realize that in fact they are controlling an airport that passengers want to use to save money.

They would have you believe that jobs will be lost if more flights came to the overall Dallas area. They would have you believe that their economy would suffer if more tourists came in and spent money. They would have you believe that by controlling another airport that an open and free market still exists.

And finally isn't it funny how this overt attempt at manipulation of another airport isn't practiced anywhere else, and that passengers can't see what they are doing.
 
avek00
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 7):
What is so wrong with WN fighting for the same rights other airlines get everywhere else, with some LOCAL restrictions (LGA, DCA permiters)?

Southwest is free to use DFW for its longer-haul operations like everyone else. If they want to remain a solely short-haul Dallas player, then they can continue to operate at Love under the current rules.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 8):
And finally isn't it funny how this overt attempt at manipulation of another airport isn't practiced anywhere else

Not at all true - DCA, LGA, LHR, and NRT are examples of airports that are subjected to manipulative government regulatory controls.
Live life to the fullest.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:04 am

I believe that when and if the WA goes away, there will be compromises. Since this requires federal approval, right now there's a war, Patriot Act revisions, and a supreme court seat to fill. Let's face it - there are far too many pressing issues to be dealt with and this is more than likely a very low priority. IMO, the Hill is not going to spend a lot of time on this issue thus there will be compromises which usually happens when things get worked quickly and are not a matter of national importance.

I am sure some die-hards here will argue WA is of national importance, but I have news for you, it isn't. Despite the fact the president is a Texan he is not going to bend over backwards for this.
 
swatpamike
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:54 am

Hello all

DfwRevolution, very good post. I only had a minute to check out some of the article (busy trying to get flights out) but it will give most people who have open minds something to think about.

Now if this thread can keep from going WN v/s everyone else maybe we can all get along.

Cheers

swapamike
 
stlgph
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 4):
flew on WN this weekend to SAN and the flight attendant made an announcement that about the WA being repealed would lead to airfares nation wide dropping up to 50%.!

a flight attendant eh?

that's a good one!

i am looking forward to St. Louis - Boston dropping 50%. thank you, Southwest!

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
Bull - SOUTHWEST is the idiosyncratic party that is raising a fuss because it doesn't want to play by the rule that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE lives with.

agreed
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:36 am

Now this is something I have long said should be done, although I also said that the "process" shouldn't start for another couple years. This is something hopefully everybody could agree on.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
cairo
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 9):
Not at all true - DCA, LGA, LHR, and NRT are examples of airports that are subjected to manipulative government regulatory controls.

All these airports are controled for capacity and safety reasons that do not exist at Love. Basically, all these other airports are tiny in terms of physical size for the markets they serve.

Time moves on, we aren't bound forever by a rule that made sense in the 1970s.

The article's idea is a very fair compromise, although an immediate end to thru-ticketing restrictions would offer some relief from AA's monopoly prices to cities they alone control with nonstop service from Dallas.

It's amazing to me that the DMNews came out with this editorial, whcih is basically a pro-WN piece, even though they have traditionally supported AA. The political power in the world is changing.

Cairo
 
cjpark
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 9):
Not at all true - DCA, LGA, LHR, and NRT are examples of airports that are subjected to manipulative government regulatory controls.

All these airports are controled for capacity and safety reasons that do not exist at Love. Basically, all these other airports are tiny in terms of physical size for the markets they serve.

Time moves on, we aren't bound forever by a rule that made sense in the 1970s.

The article's idea is a very fair compromise, although an immediate end to thru-ticketing restrictions would offer some relief from AA's monopoly prices to cities they alone control with nonstop service from Dallas.

It's amazing to me that the DMNews came out with this editorial, whcih is basically a pro-WN piece, even though they have traditionally supported AA. The political power in the world is changing.

No Cairo, The politics are not changing only the size of the checks being written. WN has a lot of bank these days. Belo Corporation will publish or say anything as long as it is paid for it.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
luvfa
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
Bull - SOUTHWEST is the idiosyncratic party that is raising a fuss because it doesn't want to play by the rule that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE lives with.

Bull- The rule was enacted solely for controlling Southwest!

I do agree however, that the Wright Amendment phase-out will definitely be compromised. Probably something like N/S flights will be less than 1000nm, but allowing through flights/connections. Thus, DAL-MSY-TPA would be allowed. This way DFW could be the long range airport and DAL the short range. Sort of like JFK vs. LGA.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:12 pm

>> It's amazing to me that the DMNews came out with this editorial, whcih is basically a pro-WN piece, even though they have traditionally supported AA.

Supported AA or supported DFW? There is a tremendous difference there, and I would question how much support the DMN has voiced for the former.

It's the difference between supporting another private corperation (to the end that I doubt the DMN would side with either WN or AA) versus supporting a public infastructure investment.

>> It's amazing to me that the DMNews came out with this editorial, whcih is basically a pro-WN piece, even though they have traditionally supported AA. The political power in the world is changing.

First, when have they ever "supported" American Airlines? I would challenge you to find one editorial, column, or story that would allude to such a conclusion. The editors have voiced their support for DFW as the primary airport for the metroplex, but that is 180 degrees different than supporting AA.

Second, how does it ammount to a pro-WN piece? Because it's a change in the status quo? If anything, the editorial is very clear that it's their opinion that all parties stand to benefit from a reduction/elimination of the W.A.

>> The politics are not changing only the size of the checks being written. WN has a lot of bank these days. Belo Corporation will publish or say anything as long as it is paid for it.

So you're asserting that WN paid off the Dallas Morning News? If that were true, people would likely go to jail. The system isn't moving fast enough so WN resorts to fraud?

I was under the impression that you were actually making some progress toward a middle ground, but now you believe anytime someone changes their mind and offers a compromise, a conspiracy is involved?
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:43 pm

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
idiosyncratic

You sure do love this word  Smile.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
This shows, as I believe, the DFW is the selfish party in this equation.

In their eyes, they have the most to lose. Why shouldn't they fight? Just as WN should be looking out for it's own interests, so too should DFW. They may be wrong, but oh well.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 5):
I wouldn't have the Feds incorporate the acceptance of the Love master plan or anything like that in the phase-out, though - again, those are local issues and should be dealt with locally, with Federal involvement limited to safety or environmental issues, just as they are at all other airports.

I agree 100%.

-Dave
-Dave
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:19 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
We also reject the idea that a law written is a law forever.

Nice. So the press thinks this? Let's just toss out the constitution. It's law.

On a side note. I'm really sick of these threads. You all wanna tow the freemarketbullshit line go ahead. This is freakin' ridiculous.

[Edited 2005-07-18 14:20:20]
 
cjpark
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RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
>> The politics are not changing only the size of the checks being written. WN has a lot of bank these days. Belo Corporation will publish or say anything as long as it is paid for it.

So you're asserting that WN paid off the Dallas Morning News? If that were true, people would likely go to jail. The system isn't moving fast enough so WN resorts to fraud?

I was under the impression that you were actually making some progress toward a middle ground, but now you believe anytime someone changes their mind and offers a compromise, a conspiracy is involved?

You pay off a public official its a bribe. You pay a media outlet for a published or opinion on the air it is an advertisement. People go to jail for bribery. How do you figure this is fraud. I hear the same type of BS from the AM talk radio hosts in Dallas. Surely someone is getting paid. Yes there are paid editorials whether they are declared as being paid for the opinion or not. This sort of thing has been going on forever.

Please explain your assertion of this as being fraudulent.

My personal opinion is that WN is getting desperate.

This is a way of acknowledging the City of Dallas position with the issue. It pretty much parrots what the Mayor of Dallas has been hinting at
look at the recent messages from the Mayor. (The City should take action now to prevent DAL from becoming a bigger problem to the city.) She wants to bulldoze the old Legend Terminal and cut back on the number of gates for lease to 26. She wants a Federal law to limit competition at DAL. She has not said no to the prospect of long distance flights only to the prospect of a miniature DFW next to Downtown.

WN has realized that they cannot take the city for granted.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 15):
Time moves on, we aren't bound forever by a rule that made sense in the 1970s.

The article's idea is a very fair compromise, although an immediate end to thru-ticketing restrictions would offer some relief from AA's monopoly prices to cities they alone control with nonstop service from Dallas.

 Wow!  faint 

STOP THE PRESSES, LADIES & GENTLEMEN!

I do believe we have an A.net first on these W/S A threads:

Cjpark is now in agreement that the original W.A. is now longer a rabbinical degree that can not be changed, altered or repealed; and agrees that thru-ticketing for DAL should be allowed.

No offense, Cjpark; but everytime I or anyone else mentioned a recommendation for abolishing the thru-ticketing ban at DAL (which causes traveler to do the Texas 2-step booking) in past threads; you've either ignored those comments or pooh-poohed any restriction ease at DAL regarding W/S A.

Just out of curiousity, did you recently have a change of heart or is someone else using your username?  stirthepot 
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
cjpark
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RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):


STOP THE PRESSES, LADIES & GENTLEMEN!

I do believe we have an A.net first on these W/S A threads:

Cjpark is now in agreement that the original W.A. is now longer a rabbinical degree that can not be changed, altered or repealed; and agrees that thru-ticketing for DAL should be allowed.

No offense, Cjpark; but everytime I or anyone else mentioned a recommendation for abolishing the thru-ticketing ban at DAL (which causes traveler to do the Texas 2-step booking) in past threads; you've either ignored those comments or pooh-poohed any restriction ease at DAL regarding W/S A.

Just out of curiousity, did you recently have a change of heart or is someone else using your username?

Hold on PHLBOS,

I never said that I agreed with the proposal. My personal opinion is that WN should forget about long distance service from DAL and pack up and go out to DFW and play nice with the rest of the children.

I only pointed out that the city still has a say in this matter and that possibly WN pulled its head out long enought to realize it.

[Edited 2005-07-18 15:47:53]
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
workbench
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 22):
My personal opinion is that WN should forget about long distance service from DAL and pack up and go out to DFW and play nice with the rest of the children.

Any why exactly should they do that. DFW does not fit with their business plan? What right does the federal government have to tell the people who live in a specific area where they can or cannot fly or what airline they must fly for that matter. CJpark, the WA is a bunch of crap that should have never been put in place at all. Its anti competitive, it gave AA a monopoly in the area, it is just plain wrong. And it WILL come down.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:09 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 3):
idiosyncratic

You sure do love this word

I’ve seen that in about 4 or 5 of his posts.

Avek – Find a new dollar buzzword du jour.

 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
cjpark
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:24 pm

Quoting Workbench (Reply 23):
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 22):
My personal opinion is that WN should forget about long distance service from DAL and pack up and go out to DFW and play nice with the rest of the children.

Any why exactly should they do that. DFW does not fit with their business plan? What right does the federal government have to tell the people who live in a specific area where they can or cannot fly or what airline they must fly for that matter. CJpark, the WA is a bunch of crap that should have never been put in place at all. Its anti competitive, it gave AA a monopoly in the area, it is just plain wrong. And it WILL come down.

Sorry to dissappoint you but the Federal Government (Congress) does have the right to regulate commerce.


I will also remind you that the law was enacted not to limit competition between carriers but airports. The law serves the purpose to protect the public investment in DFW. Now I realize you are young and full of idealism but surely you can at least admit to that fact.

Southwest has allways had the ability to fly long distance from the DFW region. They have chosen not to exercise this ability.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
2H4
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:25 pm




Quoting Avek00 (Reply 9):
Southwest is free to use DFW for its longer-haul operations like everyone else.

Not quite. WN is free to use DFW as American/DFW see fit. The restrictions on flights and routes WN would be subject to would make it virtually impossible to succeed at the airport.




Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 17):
Second, how does it ammount to a pro-WN piece? Because it's a change in the status quo?

Unfortunately, in the eyes of the AA/DFW fanatics, anything that is anti-Wright is automatically funded and driven by WN.  sarcastic 



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
hz747300
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:26 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 19):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Thread starter):
We also reject the idea that a law written is a law forever.

Nice. So the press thinks this? Let's just toss out the constitution. It's law.

You're Wright! What's with all those silly ammendments to the Constitution?!

- Freedom of the press, religion, speech - Come on, who needs this???
- Abololition of slavery - Was this really neccessary???

==========================================================

On another note, I think that the natural way of things happening if the WA was to be repealed is that it would be phased in gradually anyways. As someone mentioned above, it takes time to plan the routes, find aircraft, etc...
Keep on truckin'...
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:28 pm

Does any body know where this is at in Congress? Any chance it will be resolved before the August recess on July 30th? I am guessing it's not on the "to-do" list for the next two weeks and not going anywhere for awhile. So plan on WN pouting for a little bit longer.
 
AAgent
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RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:51 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
Not quite. WN is free to use DFW as American/DFW see fit. The restrictions on flights and routes WN would be subject to would make it virtually impossible to succeed at the airport.

You may be referring to the special offer made by DFW offering free gates, etc., albeit with huge restrictions. However, it is my understanding that if WN were to just lease the gates outright (like all of the other competing airlines) with no "special deal", then WN would pretty much have a free choice as to when and where they would like to fly. Is this not correct?

Respectfully,
AAgent
War Eagle!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
The restrictions on flights and routes WN would be subject to would make it virtually impossible to succeed at the airport.

You're foolishly assuming they take the free rent deal and the Fed doesn't step on DFW's pecker for illegal placement of route restrictions.

Better find a different argument. This one has more holes in it than a shotgun blasted road sign in Nebraska.
 
apodino
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:08 am

I am going to make a bold prediction here. If wright remains in place and for whatever reason DAL is closed to commercial traffic forever here is what I think. I think WN moves its headquarters and pulls out of the Dallas market period. They will never be at DFW period, because they can't make money there. Unlike Legacies, WN doesn't operate routes unless they are profitable.

Also a few points I wanted to make. I personally feel that if anyone besides Jim Wright had been speaker of the house, we wouldn't even be having this debate. I also don't think that if wright was removed DAL, and DFW would be competing. I think the airports would be complementing each other, not competing against each other. Lets face it, 60 percent of the traffic at DFW is connecting traffic, and DFW is not going to lose landing fees or PFCs on these people. I don't think there would be a big shift in O and D traffic except for high yield customers. I think AA would operate flights to LGA, DCA, and stuff and command a premium, especially since WN doesn't have to fly these routes, but they would still keep DFW as their main focal point, and thus most of the O and D traffic stays. MDW and ORD don't compete, LGA, JFK, and EWR don't compete, they compliment. Much like MHT and PVD compliments BOS.

CJPark is right on one point that I will concede. There are only a handful of routes that WN would fly based on their current structure that would overlap AA routes. AA would compete on those routes of course, but its only to certain places anyways. So someone flying DFW-MEM or DFW-MSP won't benefit since those aren't WN cities. Certainly WN won't compete in RJ cities either, so you won't see competition on those routes either. However one point I have been making, and I still can't believe ANYONE has commented on, is how the other airlines at DFW would react to a weakend AA. If WN can compete with AA at DAL, then the other carriers might sense a bit of weakness in AA, and start beefing up at DFW. I still maintain, that if Wright is repealed, either AirTran or the merged HP/US will hub DFW with the incentive package offered. Notice how you haven't seen any other airline say anything in this debate. I find that kind of interesting. You will see a terminal F faster at DFW without wright than with wright as well as new runways.

Speaking of the incentive package, I was trying to do a little research on the Top 50 markets from DFW. I can't find the information on the DFW website or anywhere on the web. If anyone knows where I can find this, please let me know.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2691
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:28 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 4):
I flew on WN this weekend to SAN and the flight attendant made an announcement that about the WA being repealed would lead to airfares nation wide dropping up to 50%.! Now that is a company looking out for its customers.! Bravo WN.

You should have let the flight attendant know that Southwest charges on average MORE per mile than American. Pathetic.
Stop pop up ads
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:41 am

At least someone in Dallas is thinking with this 'phase out' repeal of the WA. My only difference would be an immediate end to the rule that prevents DAL from being used as a hub by WN. That would probably keep WN happy for a while and would immediately benefit many thousand customers a month where with the currrent adjacent state WA restriction, they could use DAL as a hub.
 
workbench
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:22 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 32):
You should have let the flight attendant know that Southwest charges on average MORE per mile than American. Pathetic.

Where did you get this info? Not true at all. WN fares are way lower than AA. And their service is way better.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:55 am




Quoting AAgent (Reply 29):
You may be referring to the special offer made by DFW offering free gates, etc., albeit with huge restrictions. However, it is my understanding that if WN were to just lease the gates outright (like all of the other competing airlines) with no "special deal", then WN would pretty much have a free choice as to when and where they would like to fly. Is this not correct?

Respectfully,
AAgent

You're right..I was referring to the "special deal", and not the option of leasing the gates outright. Was the latter option determined to be economically feasable?


2H4


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Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting Workbench (Reply 34):
Where did you get this info? Not true at all. WN fares are way lower than AA. And their service is way better.

Southwest RPM Yield - 2004 Annual Report: 11.76 Cents

AA RPM Yield - 2004 Annual Report: 11.54 Cents

Delta is the highest in the industry are 12.7 cents, so it's DL then WN.

Quoting Hz747300 (Reply 27):
You're Wright! What's with all those silly ammendments to the Constitution?!

- Freedom of the press, religion, speech - Come on, who needs this???
- Abololition of slavery - Was this really neccessary???

Last time I checked, the constitution didn't require an amendment to ensure those freedoms. Did it ever say the press was not free to speak? Only the idiots in Massachusetts required such direct verbiage to get the point. Did it ever say Slavery shall be required? Nope.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5375
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 31):
There are only a handful of routes that WN would fly based on their current structure that would overlap AA routes.

I imagine the vast majority of routes served by WN out of DAL or DFW, in any scenario, would have overlap with the AA/AE system. I'm not completely up on their routes, but I'd imagine any Dallas - Florida/Carolina/California/Midwest/Southwest/PNW/Nashville/Northeast Corridor routes would be served by both.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 32):
You should have let the flight attendant know that Southwest charges on average MORE per mile than American. Pathetic.

I understand your point, but it's really meaningless.

WN offers a more consistent and rational fare structure. In the end, I'm sure many people gravitate to WN due to the simplified fares, rather than spending time researching AA's multitude of fare options on a given route. There are probably also those who'd pay a slightly higher WN fare if it means not going through a hub or if they perceive it as a higher value. Of course, the anti-WN crowd will say it's because people are too stupid to know WN is ripping them off.

AA might offer some dirt cheap fares, and might also not be able to command a yield premium on some routes, but they also charge HUGE last minute fares, and are not exactly low-fare in non-WN markets.

One could also argue that an AA flight attendant should be upset to learn that the supposed premium carrier that they belong to, the one that offers a huge frequent flier program, first class, international, lounges, etc, is unable to charge a fare premium over WN. Pathetic.

-Dave
-Dave
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 31):
I still can't believe ANYONE has commented on, is how the other airlines at DFW would react to a weakend AA. If WN can compete with AA at DAL, then the other carriers might sense a bit of weakness in AA, and start beefing up at DFW. I still maintain, that if Wright is repealed, either AirTran or the merged HP/US will hub DFW with the incentive package offered. Notice how you haven't seen any other airline say anything in this debate. I find that kind of interesting.

Maybe not on this particular thread; but on past threads on this subject, the mention of the impact/reaction of other carriers have been briefly discussed in one or all of the following manners:

1. AirTran, at first, looked at the DFW gate incentive but declined mainly due to the proverbial fine print clause. BTW FL's potential plans expansion at DFW, in some ways, motivated WN to break its long silence on W/S A.

2. Should W/S A be fully repealed; would other DFW carriers relocate to DAL as well? I could see TZ possibly move to DAL due to its code-share w/WN. Not sure whether FL or others would move as well.

3. Other carriers chose DFW over DAL because their hubs were all located beyond the W/S A perimeter, and hence, did not have a choice to go to either airport.

As far as other carriers beefing up their DFW operations in response to W/S A being repealed is concerned. That's all dependent on their financial health and expansion plans elsewhere. DFW officials may have to revise their gate lease incentive in order to get a response. Nobody's jumping at the offer right now. HP/US would be extremely stupid to take up DFW's offer since they'll already have their hands full w/4 hubs (CLT/LAS/PHL/PHX) and at least 5 focus cities (BOS/DCA/FLL/LGA/PIT).
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2213
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:24 am

And there this is thought - what if WN got their way and WA is repealed. How much more traffic can DAL take if WN starts to expand beyond the perimeter and AA starts to move in with their own flights. Is there a chance DAL will hit their max and become slot controlled? In which case expansion would be limited and WN might have to surrender gate space and slots in order to keep competition. They could, in essence, be a victim of their own success.

Is this scenario plausible?
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
AirTran, at first, looked at the DFW gate incentive but declined mainly due to the proverbial fine print clause.

Let's see... PAY RENT.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
Should W/S A be fully repealed; would other DFW carriers relocate to DAL as well?

Yes. Most likely candidates: JetBlue and Frontier, plus DL to CVG/SLC RJ - AA to ORD RJ, UA to ORD/DEN - RJ, CO to EWR/CLE RJ. This isn't going to shake out with SWA getting all the gates. They'll be lucky to keep the number they have.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
DFW officials may have to revise their gate lease incentive in order to get a response.

Or to keep them at all beyond their current leases. If DAL can undercut DFW (which they should be able to on lease rates and landing fees) and the cost to move is jutified, you could see a mass exodus as lease agreements expire.

The greatest irony of the issue, and what will probably happen out of spite over this whole issue, is that the network carriers could say "screw you" and completely raid DAL with 737's and A-320's to their respective hubs at a loss and suck the ever living life out of SWA and DAL.

[Edited 2005-07-18 19:31:06]
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:33 am

Why not end the thru-ticketing restrictions right away? Honestly, that is a bigger pain for those of us wanting to fly to DAL than the lack of non-stops. I have no problem with a phase out of the WA versus a "big bang" approach.

It also seems to me that if the thru-ticketing restrictions were lifted, much of the cry for the complete lifting of the W.A. would go away. Nobody seems intent on lifting the perimeter rules for LGA and DCA. You know why? Because if you really want to get to those airports from the West Coast, it is not that big of a problem to book a one-stop flight.

Rather than a phase-out, why not just end the ticketing restrictions and be done with it?
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:42 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 41):
Rather than a phase-out, why not just end the ticketing restrictions and be done with it?

That will probably be step 1. Followed by a permiter rule of 750-1,000 miles.

[Edited 2005-07-18 19:44:38]
 
typhaerion
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 36):
Southwest RPM Yield - 2004 Annual Report: 11.76 Cents

AA RPM Yield - 2004 Annual Report: 11.54 Cents

These numbers are jacked anyway. When you charging 1200 dollars for a large number of 3000 mile flights internationally you will have lower RPM then charging 300 dollars for a bunch of 500 mile flights within the continental US. The fact that Southwest still has lower fares than most (albeit not by much) on most of their domestic routes is testament to how screwed up this number is.

And I also agree that the phase out is a good idea. Boeing7E7, I have a question for you. How do normal gate fees at DFW stack up against fees at DAL and other major airports like ATL, MDW, ORD, JFK, LAX? I am particularly interested in MDW and BNA...
For some, the sky is the limit. For us, it is only the beginning... -- Jack Hunt
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:50 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 40):
The greatest irony of the issue, and what will probably happen out of spite over this whole issue, is that the network carriers could say "screw you" and completely raid DAL with 737's and A-320's to their respective hubs at a loss and suck the ever living life out of SWA and DAL.

That would be poetic justice!
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:24 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 44):
Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 40):
The greatest irony of the issue, and what will probably happen out of spite over this whole issue, is that the network carriers could say "screw you" and completely raid DAL with 737's and A-320's to their respective hubs at a loss and suck the ever living life out of SWA and DAL.

That would be poetic justice!

I don’t think any other carrier has ever succeeded sucking the ever living life out of SWA.

 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:26 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 45):
I don’t think any other carrier has ever succeeded sucking the ever living life out of SWA.

SkyWest has with RJ's. BOI to SLC comes to mind where SWA had a thorough ass whipping.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:17 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 46):
Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 45):
I don’t think any other carrier has ever succeeded sucking the ever living life out of SWA.

SkyWest has with RJ's. BOI to SLC comes to mind where SWA had a thorough ass whipping.

Ok, Canyon Blue plane still does it reasonably 3 times a day (twice on Sat) for $100 walk up. On Delta, you can still do it for a c-note but you are SOL if you miss your flight (their $100 fare is severely negated by their ludicrous change fee).

Of course, you could by their full Y, which is in the $500 range. Talk about @ss whipping to my bottom line! I can buy a r/t ticket to Europe for that.

And Canyon Blue plane does it profitably.



 Wink
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:25 am

What kind of ass whipping is Skywest going to take when Delta goes Ch.11?

Passengers pay for Southwest planes to fly.
Delta pays for Skywest planes to fly.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Wright Ammendment "Third Way"

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:28 am




Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 47):
And Canyon Blue plane does it profitably.



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2H4


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