TS
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Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:33 am

Hello,

All the discussion about the 772LR's range currently centers around the LHR-SYD-LHR route. But what about FRA-SYD-FRA? Could she do it non-stop? After all, FRA must be somewhere on the way to SYD.

Cheers, Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:58 am

Well, if Boeing says ir has the range for it I assume so. It is shorter the the London-Sydney route by a couple of hundred miles I think.
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PanAm747
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:00 am

LHR-SYD = 10573 nm.
FRA-SYD = 10249 nm.

I don't know about those 324 nm in between - I don't think that range is possible with the 772LR.
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solnabo
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:45 am

Maybe with 150 pax onboard and half the cargo the -LR could do the LHR-SYD route.

Just maybe.

Micke//  Wink
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Glareskin
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting TS (Thread starter):
But what about FRA-SYD-FRA?

That seems a huge distance to me. Maybe FRA - SYD or SYD - FRA but vice-versa in one go. Must be a 777XLR  rotfl 
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
N60659
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
LHR-SYD = 10573 nm.
FRA-SYD = 10249 nm.

According to the Great Circle Mapper the distances are:

FRA-SYD: 10,249mi (8906nm)
LHR-SYD: 10,573mi (9188nm)

The published max. range of the 772LR is 9420nm (10,840 mi).

-N60659
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boysteve
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:08 am

This is just my opinion, but I strongly doubt we shall see the 772LR on an LHR-SYD, nor a FRA-SYD non-stop. The plane would be right at its limit even if it could fly the great circle route. Any deviations because of air-space restrictions, unfriendly nations or weather and the flight would have to put down. It would be a very poor piece of advertising if a flagship non-stop service had to stop even just 20% of the time. My main doubt however would be the return leg from SYD to Europe, into the prevailing wind!
Any weight restrictions would surely make the route uncompetitive. At present the BA/QF cartel, sorry I mean alliance, fly from LHR-Australia 6 times daily by 744 with one stop, how would the economics of a half full 772LR stack up against this?

One final point however, LHR-PER is only 9009 miles, this should be possible!
 
PADSpot
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:16 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 5):
The published max. range of the 772LR is 9420nm (10,840 mi).

That`s theoretical. This figures does not account weather, wind and weight on a normal ultra long range flight. And even if it fits, you're lacking reserves in range in case you get into bad weather ...
 
dutchjet
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 6):
One final point however, LHR-PER is only 9009 miles, this should be possible

Possible, yes. Interesting for QF, no.

From a financial point of view, the LHR-SYD and the LHR-MEL are the only city pairs that are interesting on the Kangaroo route. Those two routes have strong demand and good yeilds with considerable premium class traffic. Perth is a great city, and it possibly could support nonstop service to/from London, but its unlikely that the financial results from the flight would warrant QF investing in 772LRs......even LHR-PER-SYD is not interesting, pax bound for SYD still have to make a stop.

The same is probably true for the FRA-SYD route, even if Boeing could guaranty the 772LRs performance on this route, QF would probably not be interested.....the yeilds on FRA-SYD are not that great and QF even considered dropping the route a few years back. The route now works OK because QF flies it daily, no other airline offers direct one-plane service between Germany and Australia, and because QF has closed it other European stations (aside from London) so a good amount of traffic is routed via FRA.

Nonstop service between Europe and Australia means nonstop service between London and Sydney - nothing more, nothing less - because of financial consideratons.
 
gigneil
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Nonstop service between Europe and Australia means nonstop service between London and Sydney - nothing more, nothing less - because of financial consideratons.

Which will not ever happen for the 5000000 reasons listed in other threads, including QF not being stupid enough to use a slot at LHR for anything smaller than a 747.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:35 am

Quoting N60659 (Reply 5):

The published max. range of the 772LR is 9420nm

And considering that the range of the de-tanked 772LR has now been bumped to 9030nm, the 772LR(ET) should be somewhere around 9700-9800nm.
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antares
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:52 am

Concordeboy,

Apparently Moscow is about as far as you could realistically get from Sydney with the auxiliary tanks fitted.

Corporate travel to Frankfurt has incidentally collapsed, a bit like the German economy at the moment, and it has been suggested to at least one analyst that in addition to Munich being considered as a full service single class destination for Australian (the Qantas 'leisure' subsidiary) there is no business case for continuing premium cabin services to Frankfurt.

Antares
 
dalecary
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
Which will not ever happen for the 5000000 reasons listed in other threads, including QF not being stupid enough to use a slot at LHR for anything smaller than a 747.

I completely disagree with you here. The business case potentially exists from LHR-SYD and if a premium business flight can generate significant yield then it could happen. Not saying it will, but believe you me,QF are looking at it, and to say it will never happen is very presumptuous on your part.
 
dalecary
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:22 pm

additionally, Gigneil, QF CEO Geoff Dixon has been talking up the hub-busting strategy, saying Boeing isn't too far away from a compelling business case and calling non-stop flights to LHR from SYD, the holy grail for QF.
I think you need to water down your comments and let QF/Boeing analyse the situation, unless you think you are more capable!!!
But, I reiterate, that I don't think QF are in a rush to order the 772LR, and will observe performance for a while.
 
SFORunner
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:16 pm

Lest we forget .... Austrian also files the kangaroo route as SYD - KUL - VIE with a 777.

SYD - VIE would be ~ 300 to 400 miles shorter than SYD - FRA.  Yeah sure
 
sllevin
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:23 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
Which will not ever happen for the 5000000 reasons listed in other threads, including QF not being stupid enough to use a slot at LHR for anything smaller than a 747.

I disagree. If the 772LR can do LHR-SYD with the same number of premium seats, which can then be marketed for even more premium dollars (and provides a competitive advantage over SQ and MH), you'll see 747's parked overnight.

Steve
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:28 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 11):
Apparently Moscow is about as far as you could realistically get from Sydney with the auxiliary tanks fitted.

...perhaps you mean "without"?
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Sukhoi
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:47 pm

At the London press briefing Boeing said that the 772LR can fly LHR-SYD with a 301 pax load but not SYD-LHR due to head winds, they are considering working on it but they suspect it maybe will remain just our of their reach. At the moment Boeing claim 17,400km as their max range for SYD-LHR with fuel reserves and head winds they would need 17,600km.

Paul
 
EDDM
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:54 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 11):
Munich being considered as a full service single class destination for Australian (the Qantas 'leisure' subsidiary)

Now THAT's news! Got any cite for that?  hyper 
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Sukhoi (Reply 17):
hey are considering working on it but they suspect it maybe will remain just our of their reach. At the moment Boeing claim 17,400km as their max range for SYD-LHR with fuel reserves and head winds they would need 17,600km.

...apparently, you missed Reply#10
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TS
Topic Author
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:58 am

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your insight. So it remains to be seen what Boeing gets her to do.

I'm actually a bit surprised to read that FRA-SYD is at stake. Has anyone got information on the load factor in economy & business on the FRA-SIN & SIN-SYD legs?

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
antares
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:42 am

For EDDM and TS,

There has been more than a year of internal paralysis at Qantas over the future direction and fleet needs of Australian. It is a scandal in my view.

My thoughts are aligned with those who want to extend the product to Europe, and Munich was mentioned as well as the more widely canvassed destinations of Rome, Athens, Manchester, Amsterdam and so on. I suspect they also thought about Ireland, but that wasn't mentioned to me. In the other direction we have been given continuous teasers about Australian being the instrument for a serious Qantas return to Hawaii. Qantas is keen to seal off as many of the options a Virgin Blue transPac operation would have in advance by ramping up its leisure offerings.

But lots of talk, no action, as yet.

Business traffic to Frankfurt is stuffed at the moment. The state of the German economy is one reason, but I understand some regulars or corporates have gone over to the 'dark side' and chosen other airlines for a range of reasons. These included inconvenient connections for certain trips and the aggressive competition from SQ and EK.

I went to a breakfast briefing by a Tourism Australia analyst about three months ago where he said that despite the German economy being in recession demand by Germans for trips to Australia had stood up very well, but that good news might prove to be better for the LH/SQ code share rather than QF.

Antares
 
QFA001
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RE: Could The 772LR Go SYD-FRA Non-stop?

Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:19 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):
And considering that the range of the de-tanked 772LR has now been bumped to 9030nm, the 772LR(ET) should be somewhere around 9700-9800nm.

If the 'new' generic range (without ACTs) is 9,030nm, then the B772LR might become compelling on some routes. I must admit, though, I am a skeptic about that figure.

Quoting Sukhoi (Reply 17):
At the London press briefing Boeing said that the 772LR can fly LHR-SYD with a 301 pax load...

Add higher generic pax weights, IFE, a greater proportion of flat beds (quite weighty) and higher airline fuel reserves and what Boeing says doesn't stand up so well in practice.

Quoting Sukhoi (Reply 17):
At the moment Boeing claim 17,400km as their max range for SYD-LHR with fuel reserves and head winds they would need 17,600km.

Actually, in QF configuration they'd need more like 18,600km. This is no doubt one of the reasons that Boeing's Lars Andersen stressed that there was no way that the -200LR could do SYD-LHR or was ever likely to do SYD-LHR.

Quoting Antares (Reply 21):
There has been more than a year of internal paralysis at Qantas over the future direction and fleet needs of Australian. It is a scandal in my view.

My thoughts are aligned with those who want to extend the product to Europe, and Munich was mentioned as well as the more widely canvassed destinations of Rome, Athens, Manchester, Amsterdam and so on. I suspect they also thought about Ireland, but that wasn't mentioned to me.

AO operates under different business conditions to QF. For example, AO only saw the recent acceptance of the crew unions to allow for longer flights. So, it is not as simple as just deploying AO on those routes. Thus, it isn't a scandal but time to weigh up the benefits of making AO a more flexible organisation. Let's also not forget, here, that AO was constructed as a single fleet type, single class airline and doing longer services into EU or elsewhere could substantially alter its business model.

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