geoffm
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:58 am

Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:55 am

(and yes I searched)

Why are there no direct services between London and Manila any more? Is it because it's not a major tourist destination for Brits? No business? We have large numbers of nurses and suchlike over here so I would have thought there would be *some* demand!

It's roughly the same distance as SIN - though I'm not sure about weather patterns and suchlike - so it should be in range for a B744 shouldn't it?

Thanks

Geoff M.
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:02 am

Well Philippine Airlines use to operate this route non-stop with its A340-300. After the strike back in 98 all routes to Europe was discontinued.

PR wants to return to LHR, but it doesn't have extra aircrafts for that route ie A340's.

BA will probably never return to MNL because it can codeshare with CX from HKG.

The current PR fleet is already utilized to capacity, SO extra lift is needed. Most of PR's concentration is in the US market where it remains the carriers best performing country.

PR use to codeshare with KL to AMS since last year, however, I don't know what happened to it, because I don't see it anymore on their website. Any body know more about this?

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:12 am

I believe that BA served Manila at one time (via another city) and the demand and yeilds were poor and the route was dropped.

Many European carriers have had little success at MNL - even PR dropped service to Europe after their financial problems.

I think that a combination of factors makes service from LON to MNL a difficult proposition - firstly, the Phillipines and the UK do not have the historical, cultural and business ties that UK has with, say, SIN or HKG. While Manila is a huge city and has a good amount of business activity, its not one of the money-centers of Asia, from a historical point of view - the Phillipines share more history with the US than Europe and the same if probably true demographic and immigration trends limiting the friends & family market, and tourism in the Phillipines is limted when compared to other nations such as Thailand and Indonesia.

The fact that major Asian carriers such as CX and SQ provide easy connections from Europe to MNL also cannot help the case for the launch of a nonstop service on the LON-MNL route.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:29 am

The Philippines is in general a low yield VFR market. European airline service to country has decreased over the years with only KLM and Lufthansa remaining. BA served Manila until 2002 having operated a HKG-MNL tag on flight.

Manila for the most part is a secondary destination for European carriers. Tourism, trade and investment flows are limited between the EU and the Philippines as compared with other South East Asian countries.

An eventual return of PAL to Europe is possible as only it is interested in servicing the lower yield Filipino expat labor pool in Europe.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
COSPN
Posts: 1535
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:52 am

How is KL Doing with AMS-MNL ???
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 4):
How is KL Doing with AMS-MNL ???

The route has been operated for a very very long time.

I think they are doing very well on this route. Cargo is very strong on this route, and since AF has canceled its MNL route it now sends its pax via AMS

The route has just been upgraded late last year to direct service with B777's. It use to be operated via KUL (KL808 and KL807)  Wink

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
cslusarc
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:22 pm

I think that it would make sense for the next European carrier to fly to MNL would be AY. AY has a strong strategy to use the advantageous geographic location of HEL as a connecting gateway to North and East Asia.
--cslusarc from YWG
 
diesel33
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:28 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 6):
I think that it would make sense for the next European carrier to fly to MNL would be AY. AY has a strong strategy to use the advantageous geographic location of HEL as a connecting gateway to North and East Asia.

That would be great. However, if the UK and the Philippine have very few political ties with each other, Finland and the Philippines has virtually none.


I doubt it will ever become...

...Diesel33
 
geoffm
Posts: 2082
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:58 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:38 pm

Thanks. Guess it would be EK via DXB for me - or CX via HKG.

Geoff M.
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2616
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting Geoffm (Reply 8):
Thanks. Guess it would be EK via DXB for me - or CX via HKG.

i believe the best fares going round at the moment are with QR.

There are also other options... MH via KUL, SQ via SIN, TG via BKKm CX via HKG and so on.

if it's for holiday, and ur planning to go to cebu, QR is a good option...

LHR-DOH-SIN-CEB, then MNL-DOH-LHR on the return.
 
EDDM
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:15 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:29 pm

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 6):
AY has a strong strategy to use the advantageous geographic location of HEL as a connecting gateway to North and East Asia

What exactly is this advantage? Ok, LHR-SIN (6765 mi) is longer than HEL-SIN (5762 mi) - but that becomes insubstantial when we're talking connections.

FCO-LHR-SIN (7664 mi) is not much worse than FCO-HEL-SIN (7150 mi), or is it?

(all data taken from the Great Circle Mapper)
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:04 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 5):
I think they are doing very well on this route. Cargo is very strong on this route, and since AF has canceled its MNL route it now sends its pax via AMS

The route has just been upgraded late last year to direct service with B777's. It use to be operated via KUL (KL808 and KL807)

I know load factors aren't everything, but the nonstop AMS-MNL flight is almost never full, and KLM Philipines has just extended its promotional Business Class offer to Europe (booking class Z, for about USD2,300 to destinations Europe) over the entire summer peak period, so I think it's safe to say that there's at least some problems with the premium traffic levels.

On the other hand, KLM has upgraded the route frequency to daily, and that will remain unchanged for the winter season, albeit with a somewhat different schedule, as Westbound flights will operate daylight schedules to improve aircraft utilization and reduce ground time at MNL. I guess that if KLM sticks to daily operations at MNL, the route can't be losing money.

As for the lack of direct services between London and Manila, note that a couple of other Asian metropolis are lacking a direct link to London: Nagoya, Canton and Jakarta, to name just a few. I believe the slot restricted nature of London airports forces airlines to optimize, thereby dropping secondary -not necessarily loss making- flights in favor of reinforced connections to existing higher yielding destinations.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1535
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:39 pm

Thanks HB-IWC,

Sometimes KL is next to CO gate for Departure and it seems like the same number of PAX waiting; or Less but CO is a 737-800 to SPN or GUM, only 155 Pax....!?!?!
 
sk601
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:46 pm

Every time when I check the booking figures ex AMS (and I am at SPL almost every day) the AMS-MNL flight is nearly full (at least 80%). On some days the flight is oversold by 15-20 pax, with a fully booked C-class as well.

BTW there is a LON-MNL flight, it departs from LON-south arpt, arpt code AMS  laughing 
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:57 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11):
know load factors aren't everything, but the nonstop AMS-MNL flight is almost never full, and KLM Philipines has just extended its promotional Business Class offer to Europe (booking class Z, for about USD2,300 to destinations Europe) over the entire summer peak period, so I think it's safe to say that there's at least some problems with the premium traffic levels.

I think your right that premium traffic is very weak on this route, but cargo makes up for it.

Back in the days the route use to be operated via KUL and BKK on a B744 and the aircraft always left MNL almost half empty, but the cargo hold was always full.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
FinnWings
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Why No Direct LON-MNL Service?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:57 am

FCO-LHR-SIN (7664 mi) is not much worse than FCO-HEL-SIN (7150 mi), or is it?

No it is not, but when flying via Helsinki you will need only around 35min for transfer which makes connecting very easy here. At LHR I wouldn't even consider to take less than 2hrs transfer time and even then I would be worried is that enough to catch my next flight.

What about the over congested airspace over LHR and constant slot restrictions?

All this makes transfer at LHR many hours slower and more difficult experience than in Helsinki...

Best Regards,
FinnWings