NYC777
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CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:05 am

Just saw a story on Bloomberg saying that Cargo Lux may announce an order for the 747ADV freighter version at 2PM NY time today (July 20th). I'll try and find a link to the story.
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co7772wuh
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:26 am

Any idea on the number that may be ordered ?

If , in fact that Cargo Lux annouces an order for the ADV today , then it looks like we're 1 step closer to the Launch of the 747ADV .

Cool !

 cheerful 
 
NYC777
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:30 am

It didn't give numbers. I'll look at the news tickers around 2pm.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
ChicagoOhare
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:41 am

This would be absolutely awesome!! Will this potential order mark the launch of the program? It seems like through the threads and Boeing that the 747ADV wasn't going to be until later in the year. September? Anyways, we'll have to wait and see. Again this would be great news today.
 
co7772wuh
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
It didn't give numbers. I'll look at the news tickers around 2pm.

Thanks for the Heads UP !

Just 1 more hour to go !

 hyper 
 
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N328KF
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:03 am

Here's an article which talks more specifically about Cargolux and the 747 Advanced:

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/05/07/06/100bus_boeing001.cfm
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zvezda
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting ChicagoOhare (Reply 3):
Will this potential order mark the launch of the program?

Boeing recently announced that launch would require orders from two reputable carriers. CargoLux would count for one of two. One more would be required.
 
KL808
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:10 am

Here is a Qoute from their website: www.cargolux.com

"Luxembourg, 20th July 2005. - The Board of Directors of Cargolux has authorized Management to enter into negotiations with Boeing for the procurement of a minimum of 10 Boeing B747 Advanced Freighters (ADV F) for delivery beginning as of 2009.

The Board decision is the culmination of a thorough and lengthy selection process. For some time, Cargolux had encouraged aircraft and engine manufacturers to build a new generation aircraft offering better economics and environmental protection.

More recently, Cargolux had launched an in-depth analysis of all factors relevant to the decision, leading to the selection of a successor aircraft to the B747-400F currently operated by the company.
The B747-ADV freighter will combine state-of-the-art airframe and engine technology. Environmentally, this aircraft will meet all future noise limitations and assure lowest emissions and allow Cargolux to maintain its profitability in an environment marked by very high fuel prices.

Cargolux President and CEO Uli Ogiermann stated: “ Management’s recommendation to the Board is the result of a very thorough analysis during which we assessed which aircraft was best suited to our fleet renewal in the next decade. The fact that we enter into negotiations with the Boeing company is based purely on commercial considerations, supported by the environmental benefits the B747-ADV F offers.”"

EDIT:

so 10 aircrafts. So are they interested or they are on order already?

Drew

[Edited 2005-07-20 19:11:30]
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Scorpio
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:13 am

A minimum of 10! That's quite a few. Seems like they're planning to replace at least part of their 744 fleet with these birds...
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:25 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Boeing recently announced that launch would require orders from two reputable carriers. CargoLux would count for one of two. One more would be required

so who might be the 2nd one....?!?! CX?
 
whitehatter
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:27 am

Could be another customer who would want a Trent 1000 engine as well. Cargolux does operate both GE and RR power, although recent purchases have come out of Seattle with the RB211 under the wings.

Some of the Cargolux aircraft are extremely new but others are getting on a bit. They certainly are one of the more established and renowned freight dogs.
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columba
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 9):
so who might be the 2nd one....?!?! CX?

Dear God,
please make it Lufthansa !!!  Wink
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
NYC777
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:06 am

Now it's in Boeing's court to commit. Even though it's one commitment, others will come in. Boeing has to step up and pull the trigger. I think we'll probably see something from LH, CX or JAL.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:17 am

Don't forget QF...I think they're still fair game.
 
AJRfromSYR
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:23 am

How many orders would Boeing need to keep the line open and start the ADV?
-AJR-
 
NYC777
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:31 am

I beleive Boeing already has enough orders for the 744 to keep that line going until the 747 ADV can start to replace it on the line around 2008-09.

Any word from Boeing on today's announcement from Cargolux?
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NYC777
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:39 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
so 10 aircrafts. So are they interested or they are on order already?

Don't think they're on order...
1) The Board is going to start negotiations to purchase them,
2) Boeing has not (at least publically) committed to building it, though it seems that it is a foregone conclusion that they will build it.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
columba
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:41 am

BOEING FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF NEXT GENERATION AIRCRAFT


Luxembourg, 20th July 2005. - The Board of Directors of Cargolux has authorized Management to enter into negotiations with Boeing for the procurement of a minimum of 10 Boeing B747 Advanced Freighters (ADV F) for delivery beginning as of 2009.

The Board decision is the culmination of a thorough and lengthy selection process. For some time, Cargolux had encouraged aircraft and engine manufacturers to build a new generation aircraft offering better economics and environmental protection.

More recently, Cargolux had launched an in-depth analysis of all factors relevant to the decision, leading to the selection of a successor aircraft to the B747-400F currently operated by the company.
The B747-ADV freighter will combine state-of-the-art airframe and engine technology. Environmentally, this aircraft will meet all future noise limitations and assure lowest emissions and allow Cargolux to maintain its profitability in an environment marked by very high fuel prices.

Cargolux President and CEO Uli Ogiermann stated: “ Management’s recommendation to the Board is the result of a very thorough analysis during which we assessed which aircraft was best suited to our fleet renewal in the next decade. The fact that we enter into negotiations with the Boeing company is based purely on commercial considerations, supported by the environmental benefits the B747-ADV F offers.”

http://www.cargolux.com/press/press-release.htm
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:47 am

So, it sounds like Cargolx will buy at least 10 747Adv, they are now just negotiating a price and waiting for Boeing to officially launch the aircraft. At least that's how I read it.
 
NYC777
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 18):
So, it sounds like Cargolx will buy at least 10 747Adv, they are now just negotiating a price and waiting for Boeing to officially launch the aircraft. At least that's how I read it.

I think that's a good read.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 10):
Could be another customer who would want a Trent 1000 engine as well.

Not an option. The 747Adv will be offered with GE power only.
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na
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am

Wonderful. Looks like this turns into a fixed order soon. I´m surprised Cargolux is so fast in replacing their 744Fs. If they start receiving 747 Adv.Fs in 2009 the oldest 744F will be 16 years old (Cargolux operates the first 744F built).
 
zvezda
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 9):
so who might be the 2nd one....?!?! CX?

The rumours and speculation are centered around LH, CX, SQ, and JAL. QF seems plausible to me, but the insiders are saying not right now.
 
HR001
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting NA (Reply 21):
in 2009 the oldest 744F will be 16 years old (Cargolux operates the first 744F built).

Don´t forget that Cargolux has the or one of the highest utilization rates for B-744F's in the world. around 18hrs, so the aircraft will have plenty of flight hours in 16 yrs of service.
 
PanHAM
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:07 am

Good decision by CV. Clearly fits their operational profile, gives room to grow through higher payload with same number of aircraft in fleet, can go to all airports in network which are currently served (A380F could not do that). The ADV builds on present dsesign, not much change in maintenance procedures, training etc.

This is good news for Boeing and the airline industry. The market is not left to Airbus, although the 747ADV and the A380F each define their own market niche.
powered by Eierlikör
 
mauriceb
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:07 am

my bet is on JAL for further 747-200/200F replacement...

on the longer run im sure that AF-KL, CX, LH, NWA, BA, will order the plane... Maybe KL can buy the normal passenger version and then convert the plane themselves....
 
DAYflyer
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:17 am

Great news! I thought it would not happen with all the delays and apparent lack of interest...with everything being so quiet for so long! Now 10 frames, that's pretty hefty order of these big birds.

I wonder if they can snag a pax version order now. Guess we will have to wait and see.
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Dimsum
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:20 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 20):
Not an option. The 747Adv will be offered with GE power only.

Oh no, what would that do to a possible CX order? Would they be willing to use something other than RR?
 
na
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:24 am

"Don´t forget that Cargolux has the or one of the highest utilization rates for B-744F's in the world. around 18hrs, so the aircraft will have plenty of flight hours in 16 yrs of service."

Wow, 18 hours a day is much, so they may well be THE carrier who utilises their 744 most. Maintenance time aside Cargolux´744Fs will thus clock 100.000hrs in less than 20 years. (average for 747 Classic retirement is about 90.000 hrs, some of cause have clearly broken the 100.000 barrier, these aircraft being close to 30 years old though)
 
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
for delivery beginning as of 2009.

Wow, near the first off of the line of the 747adv. (please make it the 745 or 748 to simplify the typing... I'm betting on 747-8 or 747-800).

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 15):
I believe Boeing already has enough orders for the 744 to keep that line going until the 747 ADV can start to replace it on the line around 2008-09.

Its tentative... but I wouldn't doubt Boeing could sell a dozen more 744ERF's.

Quoting HR001 (Reply 23):
Don´t forget that Cargolux has the or one of the highest utilization rates for B-744F's in the world. Around 18hrs,

Holy cow! Ok, I'm assuming its 18 hours during the peak cargo season, *not* year round. Do you have a link? With that high of utilization, fuel savings will add up quick...

I *really* hope this happens.  hyper 

Who else might buy? In my opinion:
LH (cargo only)
BA (iffy, they seem to be going to a 777 based fleet to simplify)
CX (maybe...)
KL/AF is really iffy... They seem to be destined to standardize on the A380... but there is certainly room for freighter version.
JAL (I agree with others, this is just logical)
I'm seeing two cargo sold for every pax...

Lightsaber
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patroni
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting HR001 (Reply 23):
Don´t forget that Cargolux has the or one of the highest utilization rates for B-744F's in the world. around 18hrs, so the aircraft will have plenty of flight hours in 16 yrs of service.

CV's average daily utilisation is high, but not that high. 16 hours a day is a more realistic value.
 
amirs
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:29 am

Any chance LY will replace their aging 742F with 747ADV?
 
Glom
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Boeing recently announced that launch would require orders from two reputable carriers.

Does that have to be two for each the pax and freighter or two between them?

Glad to see this has gotten started.
 
HR001
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Patroni (Reply 30):
CV's average daily utilisation is high, but not that high. 16 hours a day is a more realistic value.

You are right ATW december 2004 it states 16.5 hours on average.


hr001
 
zvezda
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 32):

Does that have to be two for each the pax and freighter or two between them?

Two total. If the freighter is launched the passenger version will also be launched and vice versa.
 
centrair
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:51 am

A lot of you are thinking that JL is going to order the 747ADV in the passenger version. I am not so confident about that. It seems that both JL and NH are moving toward 777s as replacement craft for older 742s. If JL or NH were to go for the 747ADV it would be to replace current 744s which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

NH has stated that they are going for more 777s. JL seems to be moving the same way. Most of the 744s in JLs fleet are used out of NRT and KIX for the super popular/busy routes. Both JL and NH have also started adding more direct international routes out of FUK, NGO and Sapporo using 767s and 777s. That means fewer people are transfering at NRT to go places now served by their local port.

CX is a good bet for the 747ADV in Passenger form. I would say that if NW was in a good condition you might see the older 744s get phased out (I laugh at myself...DC9s...DC10s). Maybe BA will be interested. Just I don't see the Japanese buying many in passenger form. I will eat my words if they do.

I can however see Nippon Cargo and JAL Logistics going for them.

[Edited 2005-07-21 03:54:36]
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trex8
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:16 am

I will bet good money CI will order at least 9 to replace the 744s delivered from 95, they have already replaced the 4 delivered in the early 90s with those recently delivered since dec.

that leaves 21 744Fs which will need to be eventually replaced starting from about 2010.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:53 am

Quoting Hr001 (Reply 33):
Quoting Patroni (Reply 30):
CV's average daily utilisation is high, but not that high. 16 hours a day is a more realistic value.

You are right ATW december 2004 it states 16.5 hours on average.

According to Cargolux it is only 15:55 a day.
http://www.cargolux.com/key_figures/index.htm#

it's under "Daily Aircraft Utilization"

[Edited 2005-07-21 04:58:14]
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liedetectors
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:59 pm

Lets not cry. CX and BA *will* order the 747ADV. Boeing *will* make the ADV. It is their widebody cashcow, and all of the tooling is paid for in full. Just yesterday BA announced it is looking into a revamp of its longhaul fleet. A British airline not ordering a (partially) British aircraft (A-380)? The reason is the 747ADV. Airbus pretty much had to shove the A-320 down BA's throat. Just remember, you heard it first from Liedetectors!
If it was said by us, then it must be true.
 
Ken777
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:07 pm

While I would like to see QF jump in soon I believe JAL is probably at the top of the list. CX is another favorite of mine - especially when I see all the 747Fs at HKG - but I think that they may join BA in being a later customer. Long term I see CX, BA and QF as ordering. Then there is SQ which might put in an order just to let A know how unhappy they are with the 380 delays.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:09 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 15):
I beleive Boeing already has enough orders for the 744 to keep that line going until the 747 ADV can start to replace it on the line around 2008-09.

FWIW, Boeing have previously stated they need 20-30 orders to keep the line going until 2009. IIRC, that was at the beginning of this year. As of Paris, insiders have suggested Boeing has "accepted proposals" for 30-35 -400F/ERF's. These are supposed to be firmed in the coming months.

So although they do not have the necessary backlog at the moment, it does look very promising.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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columba
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:16 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 29):
Who else might buy? In my opinion:
LH (cargo only)

LH has shown a lot of interest in the passenger version of 747Adv.
They need a plane between the A340-600 and the A380.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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scbriml
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:40 pm

Quoting Liedetectors (Reply 38):
Airbus pretty much had to shove the A-320 down BA's throat.

I think you'll find it was very nearly the reverse. BA almost had to beg Airbus to bid for their new narrowbody fleet. Airbus believed BA was only using them to get better prices out of Boeing, and was ready to walk away.
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TS
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:22 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 29):
LH (cargo only)

Are there any indications why LH should do that? They just got rid of their 742s & now have an all MD-11 fleet.

Thomas
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:15 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 40):
FWIW, Boeing have previously stated they need 20-30 orders to keep the line going until 2009. IIRC, that was at the beginning of this year. As of Paris, insiders have suggested Boeing has "accepted proposals" for 30-35 -400F/ERF's. These are supposed to be firmed in the coming months.

Since then we've had Guggenheim and China Cargo "firm" 8 frames in total. So that should leave a minimum balance of approximately 25-30 still outstanding. With this announcement I feel that Boeing will be finalising those deals and the another Launch customer for the 747Adv in the next few months too. As you stated in another forum, the ball is rolling  Wink

Regards
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FriendlySkies
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:18 pm

IIRC, didn't Boeing state at the time of the Guggenheim order that it had enough to keep the line open without anymore orders?
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:32 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 28):
Wow, 18 hours a day is much, so they may well be THE carrier who utilises their 744 most. Maintenance time aside Cargolux�744Fs will thus clock 100.000hrs in less than 20 years. (average for 747 Classic retirement is about 90.000 hrs, some of cause have clearly broken the 100.000 barrier, these aircraft being close to 30 years old though)

the hours don't matter nearly as much as the cycles. what are cargolux's main routes? how many cycles are those 18 hour days including?
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 45):
IIRC, didn't Boeing state at the time of the Guggenheim order that it had enough to keep the line open without anymore orders?

They didn't need to because they already had sir.

Boeing has another 24 747-400s left to build, and Mulally hinted at additional 747-400 orders that would allow for continued production until the new model comes along, probably in 2008 or 2009. The 747 Advanced would be a stretch of the existing 747-400, with the engines being developed by General Electric for the 787.

Mr Mulally via the Seattle P.I. had already addressed this issue prior to that order.

Regards
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F14D4ever
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighte

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:56 pm

Quoting Dimsum (Reply 27):
Would [CX] be willing to use something other than RR?

If they want 747Adv they'll have to be willing.
They'll use GE engines and like it ... and what's not to like?  duck 
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RE: CargoLux To Announce Order For 747ADV Freighter To

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:11 pm

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 48):
They'll use GE engines and like it ... and what's not to like?

What's not to like? A step closer to a GE monopoly where airlines are given exactly your message: you'll take GE and damn well put up with it. Don't forget, in a few short years the 787 may be the only Boeing type where airlines will have a choice - and their exclusivity elsewhere will give GE a significant boost in these competitions too. Hats off to GE (either for their engineering prowess or business acumen - probably both) but I doubt if airlines want Boeing to rely only on one supplier for all their engines - and we're heading that way...