Avalon
Topic Author
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 6:36 pm

Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:45 pm

Will the 787s take the place of the 777s?

Surely, the new technologies used in the 787 would make it a superior plane to the 777....or is this not so?

If the 787 models have not yet taken the place of the 777s, would it be a simple step for future derivations of the 787s to knock out the 777s?
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:47 pm

No.

The 777-200LR and -300ER still have superior range and much larger capacity than the largest 787 model. Many people (on these boards anyway) feel that Boeing will eventually make a 787-10 to replace the 777-200ER, but any replacement to the -200LR and/or -300ER will need to be a new aircraft.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:26 pm

I think the knowledge and the technologies from the 787 line will be added to the 777 line making it even more economically viable for air carriers....

if Boeing can't make the 777-200LR do the LHR-SYD-LHR run right now, I wouldn't be surprised they eventually incorporate some 787 technology and do it.....might be a few years away, but it seems as if it is more of a question of "when" rather than "if"....

 twocents 
"Up the Irons!"
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:29 pm

I think the -200 length, yes all versions, will eventually be replaced by 787-10.

However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried. The 773ER is the ultimate in 777 economics and will sell for quite some time IMHO.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
DeltaWings
Posts: 1234
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:06 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:39 pm

You cant replace the 773 with a streched 787.Since the 787 has one aisle across less then the 777, it is always going to be a little smaller, so to make up for that, you would have to strecht it more. So a 773 replacement from the 787 would have to be full 80 metres long- which wont happen
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17208
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:47 pm

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 5):
Since the 787 has one aisle across less then the 777, it is always going to be a little smaller, so to make up for that, you would have to strecht it more.

I think you mean one seat column?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:15 pm

Quoting Brons2:
However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried.

Erm, the 777-300 has the exact same fuselage width as a 777-200.
 
TomFoolery
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:10 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:52 pm

so the 787 will fit somewhere between the 767 and 777, which the 777 will fit between the 787 and the 747. with the gaping void left between the 767 and the 737 (yes, I realize we are talking twin asle and single asle at this point...), I'm just trying to figure out where boeing's next step is.
Will the 787 have any commonality to the 777 of the 764? there is not a whole lot of commonality between the 744 and the 777/764, but I understand that the 747 ADV will attempt to overcome this to some degree (if i'm wrong please correct me)
It seems to me that commonality will become a big selling point, from flight deck to cabin maintenance.
Comming back to the point, which a/c will be the odd model out, and be subsequently retired?
any thoughts?
tom
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:31 pm

The 787 and 777 will not share a type rating, but I believe a pilot can switch over within 6(?) days. The 747Adv will be getting a new 787-style flight deck, so it should offer a high level of commonality as well. I don't think Boeing is too concerned about commonality with the 767s, as most airlines ordering the 787 would be replacing that type.
 
akelley728
Posts: 1968
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 12:35 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 3):
think the -200 length, yes all versions, will eventually be replaced by 787-10.

However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried. The 773ER is the ultimate in 777 economics and will sell for quite some time IMHO.



Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 7):
Erm, the 777-300 has the exact same fuselage width as a 777-200.

Uhh, he was comparing the 777-300 to the 787
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):


The 777-200LR and -300ER still have superior range and much larger capacity than the largest 787 model. Many people (on these boards anyway) feel that Boeing will eventually make a 787-10 to replace the 777-200ER, but any replacement to the -200LR and/or -300ER will need to be a new aircraft.

A stretched B787-9 could replace the B777-200LR, but only with a new wing. Using the wing from the B787-9, a B787-10 would only replace the B777-200ER.

The longest practical stretch of the B787 would make it the length of the A340-600 (about 75 meters), which would give it a floor area greater than the A340-600 but smaller than the B777-300. Such a B787-11 would need a new wing. That new wing applied to a B787-10 (about 69 meters) would give it better than B777-200LR performance.

Most likely, a B787-10 will replace the B777-200ER and, eventually, an all new model will replace both the B777-300ER and the B747Adv.
 
AJRfromSYR
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 6:03 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting TomFoolery (Reply 8):
so the 787 will fit somewhere between the 767 and 777, which the 777 will fit between the 787 and the 747. with the gaping void left between the 767 and the 737 (yes, I realize we are talking twin asle and single asle at this point...), I'm just trying to figure out where boeing's next step is.

The 787 will cover the 753-767 family. Maybe the 777-200 also
The 737 Replacement will cover the 737 family -752

No gaping void.
-AJR-
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:11 am

They are completely different aircraft with different capacity and range, so the answer is no. If they take the 787 technology and build it into the 777 that would be cool-this will eventually be done but when is anyone's guesstimate.
One Nation Under God
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
A stretched B787-9 could replace the B777-200LR, but only with a new wing.

....and new gear, and new engines, and a significant increase in fuel storage, and a huge boost in payload capability, and...
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1609
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:59 am

I hope Boeing keeps 777 fuselage in its current form, gives it an all-new wing and makes it fully-composite airframe. The weight savings along with bleedless engines would make it a very nice update to already proven design. Other than the little "heavy" weight in 777-200ER, the plane is perfect...
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8652
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:18 am

>> The weight savings along with bleedless engines would make it a very nice update to already proven design. Other than the little "heavy" weight in 777-200ER, the plane is perfect...

The issue becomes two-fold: cost/benefit ratio and market coverage.

#1. Heavily reworking the 777 with 787-technology would yield a highly competitive product, but at what cost? While not an exact parallel with the A350, Airbus has shown reworking an airplane isn't cheap at all.

If we consider the growth of other Boeing widebodies like the 767 and 777, there is (likely) a good deal of growth potential within the 787 platform. Moreover, the 787 fuselage is only an arms-width narrower than the 777. At that point, it's likely more cost efficent to stretch a year-2008 platform than it is to modernize a year-1995 platform.

Observe the success of the 773ER: invest about $1 billion dollars to beef-up MTOW, rework landing gear, add fuel volume, aerodynamic tweak here, etc, etc. Do the same to the 787-9 with a stretch, and I'd wager my Toyota that it would be more cost effective than modernizing the 777.

#2. Running short on time, but Boeing has to be considering that the Adv is getting close to the end of the 747 legacy. Pure speculation, but allowing the 787 to replace the 772ER would allow Boeing to presue an all-new widebody family (possibly wider than the 747) to replace both the 773ER and 747. While not going head-to-head with the A388, such a product could be tremendously efficent.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:19 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
A stretched B787-9 could replace the B777-200LR, but only with a new wing.



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 13):
....and new gear, and new engines, and a significant increase in fuel storage, and a huge boost in payload capability, and...

The GEnx engines have nearly the same thrust as the earliest GE-90s. I don't doubt that the GEnx could be further developed to provide sufficient thrust. Additional fuel storage is -- along with increased lift -- one of the reasons why a new wing would be needed. Payload capability is easy given a new wing with sufficient lift and the strength versatility of a composite fuselage. Would strengthening the landing gear suffice? What is the maximum permissible ramp weight for a 10 wheeled aircraft?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Boeing has to be considering that the Adv is getting close to the end of the 747 legacy. Pure speculation, but allowing the 787 to replace the 772ER would allow Boeing to presue an all-new widebody family (possibly wider than the 747) to replace both the 773ER and 747. While not going head-to-head with the A388, such a product could be tremendously efficent.

Exactly.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:15 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):

The GEnx engines have nearly the same thrust as the earliest GE-90s.

...which couldnt power the 772LR worth a damn

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
Additional fuel storage is -- along with increased lift -- one of the reasons why a new wing would be needed.

wouldnt be enough, just as it currently isnt for the larger/wider 77C

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
Would strengthening the landing gear suffice?

no, you'd need to lengthen them as well, plus redesign the gear bay while you're at it

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
What is the maximum permissible ramp weight for a 10 wheeled aircraft?

not enough to support an aircraft of 777 stature, without punching holes in runways anyways  Silly
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:31 pm

ConcordeBoy, you do realize that a B787 with the payload and range of a B777-200LR would weigh much, much less than a B777-200LR, right?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:48 pm

yup... and?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:54 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
yup... and?

So, what do you estimate would be the OEW of a 69 meter long B787-10 with a larger wing providing enough lift and fuel capacity to match the payload and range performance of the B777-200LR?
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1503
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting Avalon (Thread starter):
Will the 787s take the place of the 777s?

Well ask yourself. Why did AC try to order the 787 and the 777 at the same time? NH and JL will also be operators of both the 777 and 787.

I've read in some areas that NH sees the opportunity to use their 787 on the inter-Asian routes from HND in the future and both on domestic flights.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
iberiadc852
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:23 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 4):
Since the 787 has one "aisle" (meaning column) across less then the 777,



Quoting Brons2 (Reply 3):
However, the 777-300's wider fuselage is better for the higher passenger loads carried.

From what I have read, the cabin width:

- Of all 777's versions is about 5.80 mts. (19 ft 0.34")
- Of all 787's is 5.74 mts. (18 ft 10")

But, am I the only one who believes that?

By the way, the information I have found is that 789's length is 62.0 mts. (203 ft 4.92 ") while 772's is 63.70 mts. (209 ft) so I think the cabin lenght of both models (and the passengers capacity) should be very similar
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
So, what do you estimate would be the OEW of a 69 meter long B787-10 with a larger wing providing enough lift and fuel capacity to match the payload and range performance of the B777-200LR?

can estimate, but would need to sit down and run some numbers.

...either that, or just ask Widebodyphotog  Silly
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8652
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:32 am

>> But, am I the only one who believes that?

You're comparing the 777's internal diameter to the 787's external diameter. To my knowledge, Boeing has not precisely specified the 787's internal diameter.

In any event, the difference is small: the 787 diameter is perfectly capable of replacing the 772 and even (to a lesser extent) the 773.
 
iberiadc852
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:23 am

RE: Will The 787s Make The 777s Redundant?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 24):
You're comparing the 777's internal diameter to the 787's external diameter

Ok. It seems that I was wrong. I just found in Boeing's website that 787's cabin width was 5.74 mts. and I assumed it was the interior one, because, otherwise, following that rule, what would be the "cabin length"?. The fuselage length?. It doesn't sound very logical to me.

Anyway, I have also read that A330-A350 external width is 5.64 mts. and the internal one 5.23 mts. So if 787's external width is 5.74 mts., what's the point of saying that one (and important) advantage of 787 is being capable to have a 8 or 9 abreast while the A350 would be almost restricted to only 8 abreast?

Anyone can show light on this?
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos