FCKC
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A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:39 pm

I was told by a reliable source (As usual in this case can't reveal the name) , AY was one out of many airlines to have pushed Airbus to launch the A350 to replace their MD11 fleet.In the meantime they would lease two A340-300s , to enter the widebody Airbus world.It seems they have no intention to go with Boeing.No 787 or 777 here.
Can somebody , especially Finnish people confirm that ?
 
columba
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:35 pm

Would be great another A350 customer, hope that is more behind that rumor !!
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
backfire
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:54 pm

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
I was told by a reliable source (As usual in this case can't reveal the name)

The same "reliable source" who mentioned the additional huge order for A380s by Emirates? Where's that gone? Is anyone keeping count of how many of this source's stories are coming true? Just wondering.
 
Leskova
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:10 pm

Would be nice to see that order - I've been hearing rumors of Finnair ordering Airbus longhaul planes since around 1999 now (coming from AY's sales people here in Germany - and, yes, I know that people in sales aren't usually kept up to date too much on what the fleet plans actually are), with A330s and A340s being mentioned...

But seeing that I've been hearing these rumors now for about 6 years, I'll just keep my fingers crossed that they're true - but won't believe them till I actually see an order.

Regards,
Frank
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FCKC
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:18 pm

Backfire

No it's not the same source.
Wait for the Dubai Air Show in November to see what will happen.
Count yourself how many rumors posted here on Airliners.net have turned to reality , and tell me.Would be interesting to know.

Columba

That's why i asked people , especially Finnish if they heard or read something about this , to be sure it's true.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:23 pm

Finnair currently operate six MD-11s in a two-class configuration seating a total of just under 300. A319s, A320, and A321s are the bulk of their narrowbody fleet. Their only Boeings are seven 757-200s (which I thought were orginally bought for leisure flights?). I have absolutely no inside information and have never even flown on AY but, on paper, an order for A350s to replace their MD-11s doesn't seem improbable. At the very least, they must be the kind of customer Airbus are going after.
 
persotvik
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:58 pm

I believe you "make a story" here just to start a thread.
AY will aquire another MD11 and the fleet will be 7 in total.
As AY say, the best way to replace an MD11 is with an another MD11.

But in the future they need to replace their MD11 fleet and it seems like Airbus will be a solution. But I simply DON'T believe that they will aquire the 343 as an interim solution.

Per
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:10 pm

Perstovik

AY certainly like their MD-11s but an A350 order isn't incompatible with them taking another (used) plane. If anything, it adds to the urgency. Finnair are developing their long-haul network quite nicely but they can't go on indefinitely relying on collecting second-hand items of a model that hasn't been produced for several years. Even an A350 order tomorrow won't see them take delivery until the end of the decade. Will their MD-11s still be so ideal then? Their first MD-11 was delivered in 1990 and four of the current six are already more than ten years old. By 2010 they'll need something newer, more economical and more reliable. That's likely to be the A350 or the 777 or the 787 and if they want delivery slots they'd better order soon.
 
persotvik
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:20 pm

As i said, they need to replace their ageing MD11 fleet sooner or later. And A350 can be the solution, I have not ruled out that. But A340-300 as an interim solution seems very strange. And second hand A340-300 are not that easy to find either.

By 2010 their oldest MD11 will be 20 years old. For an perfectly maintained aircraft that is not bad. And their MD11's are very reliable. Look at NW and their DC10's...
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:38 pm

Perstovik

As I understand it, NW would love to have moved out of the DC-10 era years ago but simply couldn't afford to. But, you're right. A 20-year old MD-11 still has plenty of life left in it and if AY choose to operate them way beyond 2010 I'm sure they can. (Their youngest will still only be 12 by then.) And I agree that an A340-300 or two seems curious. If AY can still find used MD-11s, why complicate things? Then again, with a big CFM-powered narrowbody fleet the introduction of a few A343s wouldn't be a big step. Might commonality with other Oneworld members be a factor? Probably not. Anyway, I'm glad that someone's still flying the MD-11. I was no fan when it came out but a decade of memorable flights on Swissair won me over. I almost miss it!
 
WINGS
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:26 pm

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 6):
As AY say, the best way to replace an MD11 is with an another MD11.

I was under the impression that passenger version of the MD11, have become quite hard to find, seen that most have become been modified for Cargo operations.

Does anyone have any figures as to how many MD11 passenger and cargo versions were built and how many continue in active service?

Regards,
Wings
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persotvik
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:47 pm

200 MD11's were built in total.
I don't know how many which are still in service but I believe most of them are.

Two airframes lost in crashes, one from Swissair and the other one from Mandarin Airlines.
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FCKC
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:53 pm

Persotvik





Be more honnest and say i am a lawyer


AY will not keep these MD11s indefinitly , and that they are looking at A350 makes a great sense.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:50 pm

Quoting FCKC (Reply 12):

Be more honnest and say i am a lawyer


AY will not keep these MD11s indefinitly , and that they are looking at A350 makes a great sense.

I never said that they will, look at my posts. But the A340 does not make sense!
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avek00
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:16 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
Finnair are developing their long-haul network quite nicely but they can't go on indefinitely relying on collecting second-hand items of a model that hasn't been produced for several years.

Given that some of the MD-11s built are YOUNGER than early-build 777s/A340s, age in and of itself is not a major issue.
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:20 pm

Avek00

Fair enough but the 777 and A340 are still in production. Psychologically, if nothing else, the MD-11 is an 'old' plane. Moreover, early 777s and A340s are themselves ready for replacement in some cases. The oldest Air Canada A340-300 is barely 10 years old but aren't they looking to dump the whole fleet? Age is merely one factor in fleet planning. If the MD-11 is the best equipment for AY's route network they should - and no doubt will - keep them for many years to come. But the readiness of most other airlines to get out of MD-11 passenger operations (who else is left? KLM?) suggests that it has trouble competing with more modern equipment. I'd find it surprising if AY had no plans to replace it within the next decade. Not to do so would be to stick their head in the sand.
 
FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:27 pm

Finnair will phase out all their MD-11s most likely before the end of this decade and they have already started to evaluate different aircraft options which will replace those good old tri-holers. Please remember, that most if not all MD-11s of AY are leased and most likely they will be phased out when the leasing agreement expires. The first contract should expire around 2008 as far as I know.

All I can say is that A340 is definitely NOT even a short term solution and there is good reason behind that. Most of the airways which AY use on their Asia flights have minimum Mach limit which A343 will not reach on normal cruise speed. These routes are the shortest way to Asia and therefore switching to slower aircraft type would have huge economical impact as they wouldn't be able to use those airways. A343 is lacking of cargo capacity too which Finnair so much needs.

What comes to B777 it is out of the game as well... Finnair does not like to buy "old" designs and they have proved it many times in the history. Even B777 is an excellent aircraft and very economical, please remember that the basic design relates to early 90s and many of its design solutions are nowadays rather conservative if compared to B787 for example. AY has been a launch customer or one the very first operators of numerous aircrafts (ATR72, MD-87, MD-11, Convair, DC-10ER, etc...) so they are definitely looking something brand new and innovative, which in this case are B787 or A350. I wouldn't count A340-500 or -600 out of the game either.

My best guess is that AY will choose Airbus product as they have been VERY pleased for narrowbody Airbuses. However, Boeing is strong too, so I would guess chances are 60% for Airbus the get the deal.

One thing is however definitely sure... AY will need a LOT new longhaul aircrafts as their Asian strategy is extremely successful and they have announced that in 10 years they will have three times more frequencies to Asia than nowadays. It would make Helsinki one of the biggest hubs in traffic between Asia and Europe. They would expand even faster if they had enough capacity but there are very limited number of GE powered MD-11s available as most of the manufactured MD-11s have PW engines.

Lets see what will happen...we can only wait. However I would expect to see order before the next spring so we don't have to wait too long.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-07-23 16:35:39]
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:36 pm

"Most MD-11s have PW"? I'm not sure that's true. AA had GE and KLM still do. Saudi Arabian, Alitalia, Thai... There are (or were) lots of GE customers.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 16):
Finnair does not like to buy "old" designs and they have proved it many times in the history.

If that is the guiding rationale in its future fleet decisions, the management team ought to be fired post haste.
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FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:14 am

Quote:
If that is the guiding rationale in its future fleet decisions, the management team ought to be fired post haste.

Of course that is not their main principle when choosing new aircrafts but buying today something which is already quite old design will definitely be an obsolete design in 2020. Newer models just always seems to have lower operating costs and being more economical than older versions. What is the point of making new models or derivatives otherwise? Please don't get me wrong, B777 is excellent aircraft now and I'm not trying to bash it, but come on, who really believes that it is competitive design still in ten years when light fully composite aircrafts and new more economical engines are soon making a break through? Fleet decisions are long term solutions and you need to keep eye on the future.

The fleet decisions of Finnair have been extremely successful in the past and I have no doubt that so will be in the future as well. They will choose the best aircraft for their individual needs no matter is it Boeing or Airbus.

Best Regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-07-23 17:20:08]
 
avek00
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:23 am

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 19):
Of course that is not their main principle when choosing new aircrafts but buying today something which is already quite old design will definitely be an obsolete design in 2020.

The MD-11 was an obsolete aircraft within four years of EIS, and yet it is still going strong in the AY fleet. The question is not whether the aircraft's design is obsolete, but rather whether it suits the airline's needs.
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FCKC
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:33 am

Finnwings

Many thanks for all these informations.
Please do not forget AY was a launch customer for the caravelle1 , before they converted them as 3 , and ordered later 10Bs.
Merci Finnair to have bought this so elegant plane.We will never forget this bird.

I am sure the strategy of Finnair in the widebodies run , is the good one.
They simply have jumped one generation of widebody (777 and A340) , waiting for the next one (A350 and 787) to have the more and economical product.But this time as mentionned they can't do it again , and will be obliged to get either A350 or 787.
My though and only this , is A350 will better suit for their fleet plan , rather than 787 , simply as if Boeing doesn't go ahead with 787-900 , the European product is really the true replacement of 777-200 and MD11.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:36 am

Finnair are certainly interested in the 787 and are currently participating in the "Working Together" programme for the aircraft. It would seem ideal for an airline like Finnair in that it is significantly smaller than the A350/A340/B777 but has an impressive range.

This would allow Finnair to build a far more attractive hub for Europe-Asia traffic through Helsinki with the 787 than is possible with larger types. The 787 is the first aircraft in this capacity bracket to have the range/payload charachteristics to meet Finnair's requirements. The 787 would also be useful in opening up new Trans Atlantic markets currently not viable with the MD-11.

While the A350 could also meet Finnair's needs, the smaller capacity of the 787 could win the day because it would provide a means to boost frequency an open up a range of thinner routes.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
The MD-11 was an obsolete aircraft within four years of EIS, and yet it is still going strong in the AY fleet.

It is still going strong indeed, but actually B777-200A is only a few years newer design than MD-11s... However the difference is that there has been numerous modifications to B777 (-LR, ER, -IGW, -300, etc...) but the MD-11 is still more or less almost the same model as in early days of production. Of course newer versions of B777 are far more advanced than MD-11 but they don't still compare to future solutions which include much more composites and other economical benefits.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
The question is not whether the aircraft's design is obsolete, but rather whether it suits the airline's needs.

I fully agree with that. Older models seems to be much cheaper but they are usually more expensive to operate in long term than newer aircrafts. It is all about individuals needs like you said.

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
columba
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:39 am

Would the A330-200 be an option as an interims solution if the A340-300 is too slow ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:27 am

Quoting Backfire (Reply 2):
The same "reliable source" who mentioned the additional huge order for A380s by Emirates?

Backfire, as long as it's not the "reliable source" that the 380 will never fly, I can live with this "rumour".
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:43 am

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 19):
Of course that is not their main principle when choosing new aircrafts but buying today something which is already quite old design will definitely be an obsolete design in 2020.

The same thing was said about the 737. And look where that is today- without a doubt the most successful aircraft ever put into production. The MD11 is an excellent aircraft performance-wise, but unfortunately it's more efficient for cargo operations than pax ops. I'll bet you'll still see LH MD11s in 2020, just like we still see 747-100 and -200s in cargo service today. The MD11 is a proven design; it was just introduced too late in the game.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:58 am

I wouldn't discount the A350 as an option, but what about delivery dates? The A350 would enter service around 2011-2012. I guess the AY aircraft could easily last that long; the MD11s aren't particularly old, but will AY be retrofitting its MD11s to keep them competitive until then - PTVs etc. Will they get more MD11s, possibly even an all-cargo aircraft?

I understand why the A340-300 is out, but not why the 777 is out. Getting Airbuses certainly make sense, but the 777 would appear ideal for them. So too would the 787-900, but that again is a 2012 option.

Does AY have its eye on any other potential destinations in Asia? Seoul? Guangzhou, Singapore (nonstop, not via BKK as now) perhaps even Taipei?

Interesting airline; never flew with them, but would like to some day.
 
FCKC
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:59 am

NumberTwelve

Well said !!!!!!!!!
 
persotvik
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:04 am

Fleet strategy is the keyword here. AY ordered the MD11 brand new and later on came the slightly more advanced A340 and the state of the art B777.

But AY was happy with their MD11 and it was no reason to change the entire longhual fleet with for instance the Airbus A340 which does not give capacity/range increase and offer lower cargo capacity.

Many airlines have changed their longhaul fleet to often. Look at American megacarriers. This is VERY expensive, pilot rating and the list goes on! They are paying for this today. But NW kept their DC10 and their economy is maybe the best among American megacarriers today! Now they can afford to change their fleet and then they can choose among hypermodern aircraft like A350 and B787. Just like AY.

Look at SAS, terrible fleetplanning......
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columba
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:32 am

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 29):
AY ordered the MD11 brand new and later on came the slightly more advanced A340 and the state of the art B777.

Well I would say that the A340 is as same advanced as the 777 -maybe not that economical but due to new technologies such as fly by wire it is definitely more advanced then the MD 11.
The MD 11 was the first of the three new generation long haul planes that came out. That was the big advantage of MDD back then and many airlines that could not wait with a replacement for their aging L1011 or DC 10 fleet ordered the MD 11 over the A340 or the 777.
But the MD 11 had in the beginning some problems and did not fulfill its promises so airlines later switched to the A340 or the 777. Which is sad because the MD 11 truley is a great airliner and I am sad that I missed the oppurtunity of flying with one of Delta´s jets and now I maybe never will have the oppurtunity of flying with one again !!!
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
avek00
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:19 am

Quoting Persotvik (Reply 29):
But NW kept their DC10 and their economy is maybe the best among American megacarriers today!

Not in any way, shape, or form.
Live life to the fullest.
 
persotvik
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:54 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 30):
Which is sad because the MD 11 truley is a great airliner and I am sad that I missed the oppurtunity of flying with one of Delta´s jets and now I maybe never will have the oppurtunity of flying with one again !!!

You have plenty of oppurtunities when you live in Germany:

KLM
Varig
Martinair
Finnair
Thai Airways
World
Air Namibia

Varig flies MD11 from FRA and the "local flight" AMS-PAR is great.
And then you have various destinastions from AMS Smile
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:48 pm

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 16):
most of the manufactured MD-11s have PW engines

Actually, no. Of the 200 built, 82 (41%) have PW and 118 (59%) have GE.
 
Joost
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:16 pm

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 16):
Most of the airways which AY use on their Asia flights have minimum Mach limit which A343 will not reach on normal cruise speed.

Can you explain this? Are there routes that require by certain laws a minimum speed? Or is the speeds just needed to fit the flights in a narrow time-window?
 
FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:27 pm

Quoting FCKC (Reply 21):
Many thanks for all these informations.
Please do not forget AY was a launch customer for the caravelle1 , before they converted them as 3 , and ordered later 10Bs.
Merci Finnair to have bought this so elegant plane.We will never forget this bird.

Glad that I was able to help you, FCKC. The Caravelle was an excellent aircraft indeed, I have heard many former Caravelle pilots to praise that bird! It was technologically very sophisticated and a great aircraft to fly which offered excellent comfort for passengers as well. Finnair really loved that aircraft and they operated it many years succesfully. French people obviously know how to build great aircrafts! 

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 22):
Finnair are certainly interested in the 787 and are currently participating in the "Working Together" programme for the aircraft. It would seem ideal for an airline like Finnair in that it is significantly smaller than the A350/A340/B777 but has an impressive range.

You are right, Crosswind, 787 would be excellent aircraft for Finnair open new routes to destinations where the demand is not so high. However, the problem of 787 is in cargo capacity. B787-3 is not viable option due the small range. B787-8 with 223 pax in 3-class could be otherwise excellent match for AY, but cargo capacity of 5 pallets + 5 LD3 containers is not enough. Remember, that the MD-11 is able to carry 6 pallets + 14 LD3s which is more than 30t cargo! The cargo capacity of passenger version MD-11 is better than capacity of A340-600 or B777-200.

Quoting Columba (Reply 24):
Would the A330-200 be an option as an interims solution if the A340-300 is too slow ?

It could be a better solution than A340-300, but I doubt that Finnair will introduce new aircraft type to its fleet for just such a short period. They will get 7th MD-11 soon and are looking for 8th as well, so they have decided just try to cope with demand acquiring more MD-11s until replacement aircraft arrives. Introducing new type to the fleet for short term would be costly and economically poor decision.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 26):
I'll bet you'll still see LH MD11s in 2020, just like we still see 747-100 and -200s in cargo service today.

I don't doubt that at all... Many aircrafts always find a second life in freighter market after they are replaced from passenger flights by newer models. MD-11 is an excellent freighter which will still fly very long time, just like B777 will be someday far in the future for sure too.

When Finnair is deciding their new long haul aircraft I'm sure that the cargo capacity is one of the key factors. The MD-11 is has an enormous cargo capacity which B787 will not have (not even 787-9). Therefore B787 doesn't seem to be such a good fit in my opinion, however the overal economics and passenger capacity are obviously good. It could be excellent aircraft for some new thinner long haul routes as well. What about the very high demand routes like HEL-BKK or HEL-NRT? Even MD-11 is too small for those routes and B787 will definately be as well.

A350 could be better match if we consider cargo demand as it has a lot better capacity than B787. Especially the capacity of A350-900 is equal to MD-11 and I believe Finnair is very keen for this option. It would offer more seats as well. They could also order A350-800 for slightly thinner routes. This version has a capacity of 8 pallets + 2 LD3s which is only a little bit less than on MD-11.

Like I have said cargo is extremely important. Finnair has announced that their long haul flights are profitable even with 50% load factor if the cargo capacity is fully used under the floor. Long haul flights to Asia are a true cash cow for Finnair and those flights bring 25% of the overall income already. Even the MD-11 isn't able to cope with the demand and therefore Cargolux B744F is flying AY cargo from HEL to HKG and back. I would expect to see more such a joint ventures in the future too.

AY will start flights to Guangzhou in China soon and new destinations are under study, but the lack of aircraft is a little bit problem. An average usage of each MD-11 is around 15hrs per day already, so those birds are really on heavy use. Thanks for excellent reliability of MD-11 there hasn't been big technical problems despite they are flying almost constantly. AY are planning to start flights to India, Kuala Lumpur or Sapporo... Those destinations have been mentioned as possible next new long haul destinations. They are constantly trying to get more slots to Japan and I believe they are aiming for daily flights to Narita, Osaka and Sapporo. The prime minister of Finland recently arrived from Japan where he was negotiating for more traffic rights to Japan.

Best Regards,
FinnWings





[Edited 2005-07-24 13:40:28]
 
kaitak
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:41 pm

Sapporo would be an interesting choice, as no European carrier flies there now; KLM did a few years ago (with MD11s also!), continuing to NGO.

I guess Finnair is in no hurry to move on the fleet replacement front, since the MD11s are not too old. What are the sources of MD11s? Possibly KLM? Varig?
 
FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:58 pm

Thanks for correcting me, PM! I thought there was more PW powered MD-11s indeed... However, I think most of those GE powered examples are already freighters or they will be converted to freighters and destined to FedEx or others so the second hand market for PW powered pax MD-11s is better.

Quoting Joost (Reply 34):
Can you explain this? Are there routes that require by certain laws a minimum speed? Or is the speeds just needed to fit the flights in a narrow time-window?

Yes, some airways may require minimum speed indeed. You can also find airways which might have limited maximum speed as well. Those routes which I mentioned earlier are located over Russia and there is quite a lot overflying traffic from Europe to Asia and back but not too much available airspace and routes for civils so I believe they wanted to set minimum speeds for some airways to allow smoother traffic flow. I'm not totally aware of the details but this is what I was told by one MD-11 pilot who flies those airways. A340 is able fly over that limit too, however it is slightly higher speed than optimal economic cruise speed, so therefore it will be cause more costs and reduced range for A340 operators if they wish to fly those airways.

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:26 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 27):
the MD11s aren't particularly old, but will AY be retrofitting its MD11s to keep them competitive until then - PTVs etc. Will they get more MD11s, possibly even an all-cargo aircraft?

Hello Kaitak, sorry I forgot to answer your question earlier. All Finnair's MD-11 are going through heavy maintenance during this year and to Business class new lie-flat seats will be installed with generous 160cm (63 inches) legroom. There will be 36 seats in business class and thanks for the new seats and many times awarded wine & champagne selection their business class will really be one of the best in Europe. So MD-11s are very competitive in that market.

The Y-class will be renewed as well and there will be installed new LCD screens and better entertainment system, but no PTVs unfortunately so AY is following the path of LH with this issue. There are new seats in the middle cabin section in Y-class as well but I hope they could renew the seats in the aft cabin as well. Those better middle section seats (3+4+2 configuration)aren't officially more expensive but basically those pax who have paid higher ticket price are always located there and groups as well. In overall, I would say Y-class product is very good too even without PTV and usually flights are very cheap to Asia especially if you depart outside of Finland (connecting at HEL).

As a side note, everyone should feel the GREAT power of MD-11 during take-offs at least once in their life! B777 or A340 can't compare with that at all!

What comes for those new MD-11s, I don't know where they are coming from so can't help with that. I would guess from Varig... Anyone knows? Sapporo would be an interesting new destination indeed! Sad that KL ended their Sapporo flights some years ago...

What comes to all-cargo aircrafts, I think Finnair will expand their co-operation with Cargolux, UPS and DHL and we will not see all cargo AY aircraft. However, AY has been studying that option too, so who knows in long term what will happen. Currently there is already DHL 757 flight between VIE-HEL which carry purely AY cargo feeding HEL hub and most of that cargo continue to Asia.

Best regards,
FinnWings

[Edited 2005-07-24 14:36:56]
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:55 pm

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 16):
Finnair does not like to buy "old" designs and they have proved it many times in the history.

Hmm... The A320 was around since 1987 before Finnair bought them... The B757 was also around for years before Finnair bought them...

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FinnWings
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:06 pm

LifelinerOne,

Like they say, all good rules must always have exceptions to make them valid, don't they?  biggrin 

Now I'll crawl back to my box again...  boxedin 

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:25 am

Anyway, I think it's very important that they go for the next generation of a/c, i.e. A350 or 787, but not for the current one, i.e. 777 or A330/A340. They have time until 2010 and it would be stupid to buy anything but the latest technology.

If they buy the A350 or the 787, however, is less important. Both have their pros and cons, AY should discuss with both manufacturers and take the better deal.

A350
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:06 pm

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 37):
I think most of those GE powered examples are already freighters

Yep. Some aircraft are stored and are a little hard to track down so I can't account for every last one but at least 84 GE-powered MD-11s are already freighters and two out of the four MD-11s that have crashed have been GE-powered (both FedEx examples). Besides AY themselves, I can find only Thai (4), KLM (10), Alitalia (4) and Varig (9) still operating GE-powered planes in passenger confuguration. I believe KLM are keeping theirs for a while but both Thai and Alitalia might be ready to offload one or two. Varig have recently been acquiring MD-11s (ex-Swiss PW-powered examples) but in their current financial ill-health they might also be prepared to hand over one or two. But when AY go looking it's a pretty short list.
 
Orion737
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:24 pm

I reckon if another wide-bodied long-range trijet was designed or currently in production, Finnair would go for it. They do love the Trijets for long haul.

If only Boeing/MD had kept the MD11 line open and continued to update/enhance the model, I reckon Finnair, and quite a few others, would have ordered newer, updated MD11s to replace the older MD11.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:35 pm

Orion737

But at what cost? The MD11 (pax) would have been in competition with the 777. Selling more freighters to, say, LH would have made sense but if the MD11 had remained in production and, say, Finnair bought a handful of passenger variants, Boeing would have been left wondering if they might have bought 777s instead.

But I suspect the reality is that AY is the exception. Look how quickly AA, DL, LX, JAL and others dropped the pax MD11. I suspect it just wasn't competitive in most cases. Boeing could have marketed it but sales would have been marginal. Now, as a freighter, that's a different story. As has been argued here before, I suspect Boeing were a bit hasty in killing it off.
 
OHLBU
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:56 am

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 38):
What comes for those new MD-11s, I don't know where they are coming from so can't help with that. I would guess from Varig... Anyone knows?

Yep, Varig is the source according to my inside info.

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 38):
Those better middle section seats (3+4+2 configuration)aren't officially more expensive but basically those pax who have paid higher ticket price are always located there and groups as well

Passengers can pre-book their seats according to their ticketing class, so that the least paying pax get the aft-cabin seats. Those individual pax who have not pre-reserved (ASR) seatnumbers are seated by Finnair's handling agents the day before the departure and some also at check-in, and these seatings are made at random. Group-tickets are the cheapest and they are mostly given the aft-section.

Quoting FinnWings (Reply 35):
Thanks for excellent reliability of MD-1

What reliability? They go tech every other day and as they are flying all the time there is virtually no chance to swap between airframes when one is out of service. What they should buy is a stand-by airframe to cover for the broken down ones.

I would say the A359 is most likely the replacement for the MD11. It´s European, a new design, the right size and comes out at the right time. But then again, Finnair was about to replace their entire DC-9/DC-10 fleet with B737/B767s in one big sweep back in the '80s, so let's wait and see.
 
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 31):
Quoting Persotvik (Reply 29):
But NW kept their DC10 and their economy is maybe the best among American megacarriers today!

Not in any way, shape, or form.

Persotvik may have been saying that NW is maybe the most efficient big US airline. If so, it's a reasonable statement.

Obviously the DC-10 is a fuel ($$) guzzler of epic proportions. But NW is careful to fill their planes and drive them hard, with few motions wasted.
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persotvik
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 46):
Persotvik may have been saying that NW is maybe the most efficient big US airline. If so, it's a reasonable statement.

Obviously the DC-10 is a fuel ($$) guzzler of epic proportions. But NW is careful to fill their planes and drive them hard, with few motions wasted.

I mean, why change an entire fleet of aircraft when you don't need too??
I don't buy a new car every time there is a new car on the market.
If I did it would be VERY expensive....

As I see it, NW is efficient. Pioneers in buliding airlines alliances too.
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Orion737
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:10 am

Do Finnair MD11s still operate some charter flights like Winter flights to Las Palmas and Tenerife? I would think the capacity would be useful for busy Canaries runs in Winter.
 
OHLBU
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RE: A350s For Finnair?

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 48):
Do Finnair MD11s still operate some charter flights

Occasionally yes, the destinations have been LPA and AGP, if my memory serves me right. And last winter they used them on HEL-KTT flights during the busiest ski-season. The problem is that all 6 of them are in two-class configuration so a bit of a waste to give those c-cl seats for little-paying tourists.

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