sabenapilot
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A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:31 am

I don't know for sure if it has been posted here before, but I just saw this interesting link on another aviation site. It contains a power point presentation of Airbus on their A350 compared to both the 787 and the 777.

http://www.aci-na.org/docs/41%20SAN%...ohen-Nir%20A350%20PRESENTATION.pdf

Enjoy...
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:42 am

Some interesting quotes:


An A358 carries 26 pax 600nm miles further than the 788 will do.
It has a 2% lower fuel burn/seat than the 787-8.


An A359 matches the 789 in payload/range, or it can carry 29 more pax.
It has a 3% lower fuel burn/seat than the 787-9 and a whopping 25% lower fuel burn/seat than the 777-200ER (!!!!)
 
Alitalia744
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:45 am

Yes very interesting. Reminds me of all the claims of the A340 vs. 777 and we see where that left Airbus.

BTW - were you trying to start an A. Vs. B. war? We know you love those.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 1):
An A358 carries 26 pax 600nm miles further than the 788 will do.

Bigger is not necessarily better. It depends on what the airline wants for a particular route.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 1):
It has a 3% lower fuel burn/seat than the 787-9 and a whopping 25% lower fuel burn/seat than the 777-200ER (!!!!)

That's been revised down. It was 30% a while back.
 
Newark777
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:47 am

Also note on the last page that all data is based on assumptions. This is still a paper airplane, and it is still early to make these comparisons.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
yul332LX
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:47 am

I wonder where you got that link Sabenapilot.

JFYI, YUL332LX = SR89.  Wink
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:48 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
were you trying to start an A. Vs. B. war?

So you prefer me NOT to link to interesting information then? Just so we understand you clearly....

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
Reminds me of all the claims of the A340 vs. 777 and we see where that left Airbus.

Now now, whose starting off what here??? Big grin
 
ual747-600
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:49 am

I wonder how the 350-8 compares to the 787-9. Anybody know?

UAL747-600
 
ual747-600
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:50 am

I also wonder how the 350-9 would compare to another paper plane possibility the 787-10?

UAL747-600
 
sabenapilot
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:51 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 5):
JFYI, YUL332LX = SR89.

Hi there SR89...
Didn't know you are one and the same, or I would have given you the full credit!
 
Udo
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
BTW - were you trying to start an A. Vs. B. war? We know you love those.

Actually that comment is the first one in that thread to qualify for a bashing contest...  Yeah sure


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
Reminds me of all the claims of the A340 vs. 777 and we see where that left Airbus.

It could be argue that part of the reason for Boeing whooping the A340 was being later to the market with the 777 knowing what they were up against. This situation would be reversed in this case.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
BTW - were you trying to start an A. Vs. B. war? We know you love those.

It depends on the definition of A vs B war. Having not been here that long, I would imagine it is an irrational slanging match. I think an intelligent debate over the relative merits of the two manufacturers products based on accurate facts and sound logic in a civil manner would not be an A vs B war. Lately, it seems like there have been some good debates of this kind as long as AirbusDriver keeps out of it. I hope we could have the same thing here.
 
yul332LX
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 9):
Didn't know you are one and the same, or I would have given you the full credit!

Oh no problem... just being friendly here  Smile

What's your ID on " the other forum" ?
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
707lvr
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:16 am

We should give Airbus some credit here. Boeing has spent years developing what they believe will be the pinnacle of an efficient jet transport, using revolutionary materials and processes. By employing their best minds and exhaustive research and testing, they felt they had a product which would usher in a new era of flight. In the space of only a few months, and almost as an afterthought, Airbus has managed to do a bit of tweaking and will offer an infinitely superior airplane which will fly faster, farther, higher, smoother, quieter with much greater capacity, extraordinary operating efficiencies and unsurpassed passenger comfort and amenities. And it will probably cost considerably less. Boeing may sell a few of their model and eventually get some reward for the effort via freighter conversions.
 
trident2e
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
Yes very interesting. Reminds me of all the claims of the A340 vs. 777 and we see where that left Airbus.

BTW - were you trying to start an A. Vs. B. war? We know you love those.

Sounds to me like it's you trying to start an A vs. B war - typical American sour grapes!
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:58 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
Boeing has spent years developing what they believe will be the pinnacle of an efficient jet transport, using revolutionary materials and processes.

Actually, the materials of the 777 are fairly conventional, only about 10% composite. The 787 and the A350 are revolutionising the map in terms of materials with carbon fibre and GLARE.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
By employing their best minds and exhaustive research and testing, they felt they had a product which would usher in a new era of flight.

Well, Airbus are hardly using university dropouts, which are throwing together the ultimate aircraft and selling it without research and testing. And it sounds like you making out the 772ER to be a failure when of course it has been a runaway success, which will be beaten by a newer aircraft 15 years later. Shock!

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
In the space of only a few months, and almost as an afterthought, Airbus has managed to do a bit of tweaking and will offer an infinitely superior airplane which will fly faster, farther, higher, smoother, quieter with much greater capacity, extraordinary operating efficiencies and unsurpassed passenger comfort and amenities.

First off, Airbus had the A330 as a base, an excellent aircraft by any measure. Second off, they are using the GEnx, which is a major contributor to the increased efficiency of the A350 so half the credit goes to GE. It will not fly faster than the 777. It will not offer greater capacity than the 777. It will not fly significantly higher than the 777 (I'm not sure how the ceiling compares, but it would involve quibbling over 10 or 20 flight levels.). There's no talk about increasing passenger comfort significantly over the A330. The 787 is the one that's going to do that. Airbus promises large increases in efficiency, due to the use of GLARE (spinoff benefits from the A380 program) and the GEnx (credit goes to GE).

Moreover, it's still a paper aeroplane. It hasn't taken months for Airbus to develop an improvement on what Boeing took years to develop. It has taken months for Airbus to realise they have to offer an improvement on what Boeing took years to develop. Guess what? They've got until 2010 to develop it at the easliest, which qualifies as "years".
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 14):
typical American sour grapes!

Thank you. You don't need to prolong it with comments like that.
 
texdravid
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
Airbus has managed to do a bit of tweaking and will offer an infinitely superior airplane which will fly faster, farther, higher, smoother, quieter with much greater capacity, extraordinary operating efficiencies and unsurpassed passenger comfort and amenities. And it will probably cost considerably less. Boeing may sell a few of their model and eventually get some reward for the effort via freighter conversions.

It has done no such thing. An "infinitely superior plane...". Come on. Such grandstanding and cheerleading is lame. Of course, Airbus is going to say such things, and Boeing is going to say how their plane is better.

But for you to generalize that the Airbus 350 is infinitely superior at this stage is premature at best, foolish at worst.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
norcal
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:24 am

How does the floor area compare between the 787-8/9 the 772ER and the A350-800/900?
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:25 am

On page 8, it shows the 358 can fly 8,200nm with 258 pax, and the 788 can fly only 7,600nm with 232 pax. Boeing advertises the 788 can fly 8,500nm with 223 pax, see http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/facts.html . That's a big hit on Boeing's specs, wouldn't you say so?

On page 9, it shows the 359 can fly 6,800nm with 316 pax, and the 789 can fly only 7,000nm with 287 pax. Boeing advertises the 789 can fly 8,300nm with 259 pax, see http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/facts_stretch.html . That's a big hit on Boeing's specs, wouldn't you say so?

When Airbus knocks down Boeing's specs by at least 10% or more, of course the 358 will burn less fuel than 788. One should also wonder why Airbus won't compare the 358 against the 789.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:27 am

....anyone else notice how realistic Airbus was being with seating pitch (page six)?

Normally, they're content to use such unrealism as 39in pitch for Biz and 30in pitch for coach... but this time they've chosen a nice cozy 60in/32in
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:36 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
In the space of only a few months, and almost as an afterthought, Airbus has managed to do a bit of tweaking and will offer an infinitely superior airplane which will fly faster, farther, higher, smoother, quieter with much greater capacity, extraordinary operating efficiencies and unsurpassed passenger comfort and amenities.

Now that I read this again, are you sure you're not confusing the A350 with the A380? The unsurpassed passenger comfort and amenities is only promised for the behemoth A380.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:37 am

Well, I just don't get it how Airbus with 315-seat A350-900 plane is comparing it's fuel burn to the 787-9 which is a 280 seat plane. They advertise that it burns 3% less fuel per seat. I wonder how those numbers would compare with that "ghost plane" everyone keeps mumbling about here, which would be a better match for the capacity - 787-10*.

Just prooves the point that every manufacturer swings his product. Boeing does it with that mock-up "airbus passenger cabin", which is a joke. Airbus fudges the fuel burn. And to everyone crying foul about it... let me say it again:

JUST WAIT UNTIL BOTH PLANES ARE FLYING WITH AIRLINES!!!!

thank you Big grin


*) hint: 787-10 would probably burn about 5 - 8% less fuel per seat. Please mind that the above is an educated guess, based on what other 787 variants are claimed to do.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
boeingbus
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:39 am

These comparisons are meaningless... Does Airbus think they can fool airlines with these stats? I don't understand why they wouldn't use the 787-9 / A358 comparison and the A359 /772ER, which exactly what airlines would look at?
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:44 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):

Good stuff. Funny how many think you are serious. Especially about the freighter conversions.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jacobin777
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:46 am

basically the air carriers are going to decide what plane is going to be the most successful....so far its the 787 (for now at least)-lets see what happens in a few years.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
sonic67
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:47 am

See is believing!
With all the research Boeing has done the last couple of years with composites I don't see how the 350 can match it in performance. Sure it easy to put a presentation together but how much of that is based on hard #.

Did anyone catch the last page quoted below?

"The statements made herein do not constitute an offer. They are based on the mentioned assumptions and are expressed in good faith. Where the supporting grounds for these statements are not shown, AIRBUS S.A.S. will be pleased to explain the basis thereof."
 
astuteman
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:48 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 17):
Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
Airbus has managed to do a bit of tweaking and will offer an infinitely superior airplane which will fly faster, farther, higher, smoother, quieter with much greater capacity, extraordinary operating efficiencies and unsurpassed passenger comfort and amenities. And it will probably cost considerably less. Boeing may sell a few of their model and eventually get some reward for the effort via freighter conversions.



Quoting Texdravid (Reply 17):
It has done no such thing. An "infinitely superior plane...". Come on. Such grandstanding and cheerleading is lame. Of course, Airbus is going to say such things, and Boeing is going to say how their plane is better.

But for you to generalize that the Airbus 350 is infinitely superior at this stage is premature at best, foolish at worst.

I have a suspicion he was taking the piss.....
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
Funny how many think you are serious.

Well sooooooory!! There was no smiley and there have been posts made in earnest far more non-sensical. It's not the height of gullibility to consider that maybe he was being serious.
 
atmx2000
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:05 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 28):
Well sooooooory!! There was no smiley and there have been posts made in earnest far more non-sensical. It's not the height of gullibility to consider that maybe he was being serious.

I think the extreme hyperbolic praise was a dead give away for it being sarcasm.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
boysteve
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:06 am

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 26):
Did anyone catch the last page quoted below?

"The statements made herein do not constitute an offer. They are based on the mentioned assumptions and are expressed in good faith. Where the supporting grounds for these statements are not shown, AIRBUS S.A.S. will be pleased to explain the basis thereof."

Surely this is just standard procedure in all walks of life these days. It doesn't necessarily mean that Airbus are over-egging things
 
beauing
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:19 am

A rather lame presentation in my opinion, with very little REAL compairson between the A350 and 787.

Compatibility with existing airports. This is news? The 787 will also have compatibility with existing airports.

Advanced lightweight structure. The 787 will be more advanced.

State of the art flight deck. Ditto for the 787.

All-new advanced composite wing. Ditto for the 787.

Preferred six abrest seating in business class. Ditto for the 787.

Preferred eight abrest seating in coach. Ditto for the 787.

A350 All-new advanced cabin. Minor tweaks compared to the 787.

Advanced engines. Will use bleed air version of the 787 engines.

Innovative new flight crew rest. What's innovative about it? They don't tell you. Is it in the cargo hold? The A340 does that. Is it in the crown of the aircraft? The 777 does that.

Then they show a pie chart of A350 structure composition by material. But they don't show the a similar chart for the 787, so how can we compare the two?

A358 seating 258 in two classes. 788 seating 223 in three classes.
A359 seating 316 in two classes. 789 seating 259 in three classes.
What counts is useable floor area.

A358 8200nm. 788 8500nm.
A359 6800nm. 789 8300nm.

The point is, you can play all kinds of games with statistics by slicing and dicing the numbers to achieve a particular outcome.
 
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glideslope
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:25 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
Yes very interesting. Reminds me of all the claims of the A340 vs. 777 and we see where that left Airbus.

Exactly. As if any airline is going to take Airbus at their word on this. Have we forgotten the "wait and see approach" operators are taking with the 380.  Smile

Are we looking at another 346 media claim.  Smile

This is the largest obstacle Airbus faces at this point in their history. The 380 needs to be everything Airbus claims when it enters revenue service or the 350 is DOA.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 29):
I think the extreme hyperbolic praise was a dead give away for it being sarcasm.

But we've had worse said in earnest.

Quoting Beauing (Reply 31):
All-new advanced composite wing. Ditto for the 787.

I don't think the 787 wing is composite (yet).
 
norcal
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 33):
I don't think the 787 wing is composite (yet).

Yes it is, the whole wing is pretty much Carbon laminate except for some of the leading edges which are either fiberglass or aluminum, probably to protect the wings from impact damage. They say that the 787 is 50% composite, I'm not sure what number they mean though (i.e. weight or total parts etc.)

http://www.newairplane.com/en-US/Ext.../TechnologySpotlight/composite.htm
 
beauing
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:51 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 33):
I don't think the 787 wing is composite (yet).



Quote:
Boeing has announced that the majority of the primary structure – including the fuselage and wing – on the 787 will be made of composite materials.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/background.html
 
Udo
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Ai

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:53 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 32):
Exactly. As if any airline is going to take Airbus at their word on this. Have we forgotten the "wait and see approach" operators are taking with the 380.

Have you forgotten those successful and respected carriers which have ordered 159 aircraft so far?  biggrin 

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 32):
Are we looking at another 346 media claim.

Could also be an A332-like claim...who knows?  Confused

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 32):
This is the largest obstacle Airbus faces at this point in their history. The 380 needs to be everything Airbus claims when it enters revenue service or the 350 is DOA.

Amen, brother.  old 


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 32):
Exactly. As if any airline is going to take Airbus at their word on this. Have we forgotten the "wait and see approach" operators are taking with the 380

Let's not make it so A v B there. Airlines are also taking a wait and see with the 772LR, and even did to a lesser extent for the 773ER. Was this because of the 345/346? Maybe, but we also have the MD-11 and 764 and 743 of aircraft that didn't quite deliver on the initial pr, either.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
lehpron
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 2):
BTW - were you trying to start an A. Vs. B. war? We know you love those.

I wonder if no one brought this up, would one start? Thesedays it seems as if we are waiting for someone to fire out just so we can react without being liable for the comment or starting the war.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
This is still a paper airplane, and it is still early to make these comparisons.

You mean digital airplane, there are very few drafters around in this age, me certified as one.  Sad

Granted, your point stands to an extent. That being the scaled percent error between digital and physical product.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
SWISSER
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:15 am

A big fact without the specs is this in the A350-787 "war";

A350 has commonality where again the B787 is a completely new aircraft and it will logically will cost more to operate.

CCQ (Cross Crew Qualifications) and MFF (Mixed Fleet Flying) is possible on A350 and that remains a big factor for airlines who already operate an Airbus.

Most Boeing fans say that commonality is BS, but prove me wrong...
BTW, I'am a fan of the best aircraft, not the maker who gives just some promotion on what it will do!
Airbus was not "kosher" in posting such a thing...

Even if and most likely it will be that the 787 is better, Boeing will have to come up with something to get fleet commonality operational costs lower when flying and if the 787 will not be better, they are in some problems...

Look at the A345-A346, Airbus still has fail safe regarding the commonality and ease of implementing them in an existing fleet where Airbusses are present, and this battle is defenitly not over yet altough Boeing has better credit regarding commonality in the matter!
What time is top of descent?
 
sonic67
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:22 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 30):
Surely this is just standard procedure in all walks of life these days. It doesn't necessarily mean that Airbus are over-egging things



Quoting Boysteve (Reply 30):
Boysteve

Yes I do relize this. I'm just suprized that Airbus is able to make these esmates this early in the game without extensive windtunnel time.

I wonder if Airbus is doing what Mc D did in the late 80's basing their # off over enthusiastic claims and not exact hard #, If so this could come back to hunt them. Or is this just an early marketing ploy to try to hurt some of the potential 787 sales? If this is the case couldn't this strategy back fire on them?
 
norcal
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 39):
CCQ (Cross Crew Qualifications) and MFF (Mixed Fleet Flying) is possible on A350 and that remains a big factor for airlines who already operate an Airbus.

I still don't understand why Boeing doesn't have the exact same cockpit design on all their aircraft. Take the 777 and make it the standard cockpit for all future types.
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 34):
Yes it is, the whole wing is pretty much Carbon laminate except for some of the leading edges which are either fiberglass or aluminum, probably to protect the wings from impact damage.

So it is. I have memories of people saying the 787 have an aluminium wing, which is why Airbus's use of composite was better or something. I'm probably misremembering.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 39):
A350 has commonality where again the B787 is a completely new aircraft and it will logically will cost more to operate.

Not more to operate. Maybe more to introduce (maybe), but not more once the core of 787 pilots is established. Besides, I believe cockpit commonality with the 777 is one of the goals.

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 39):
CCQ (Cross Crew Qualifications) and MFF (Mixed Fleet Flying) is possible on A350 and that remains a big factor for airlines who already operate an Airbus.

You're just asking for a torrent of people bringing up AI, KE, NW and AC (although they are uncertain, it is clear they wanted the Boeings).
 
Glom
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 41):
I still don't understand why Boeing doesn't have the exact same cockpit design on all their aircraft. Take the 777 and make it the standard cockpit for all future types.

The layout is the same. The 787 uses bigger screens. The problem with being too rigid with standardisation is that it prevents improvements on future types. The A380 cockpit looks a fair bit different from other Airbus cockpits, but in functionality, it will no doubt will similar to ensure commonality.
 
SWISSER
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 42):
Quoting SWISSER (Reply 39):
CCQ (Cross Crew Qualifications) and MFF (Mixed Fleet Flying) is possible on A350 and that remains a big factor for airlines who already operate an Airbus.

You're just asking for a torrent of people bringing up AI, KE, NW and AC (although they are uncertain, it is clear they wanted the Boeings).

Yes I know what you mean,
but a fact is that an existing A320 pilot is converted in 8 days on the A350,
try that with for instance a 738 with 787, but off course I would defenitly hope Boeing will accomplish that possibility!

It safes a lot of money for the airlines and in regards to the operational envelope of a flying A319 to An A332, there is not much really different when you feel it, you easely forget that you fly a 50 meter aircraft most Airbus pilots claim.

[Edited 2005-07-25 00:46:28]
What time is top of descent?
 
ikramerica
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 39):
A350 has commonality where again the B787 is a completely new aircraft and it will logically will cost more to operate.

Not true. Since the major redesign, A's been claiming all new parts out of one side of their mouth and commonality out of the other. That graphic that tries to claim that it is somehow cheaper to train pilots to fly A320s and A380s together is nonsense. Or that there is any major part commonality between the A318 and A350. yet they imply that with the graphic. Nobody will buy that line.

Sorry, but with new materials, new interiors, new flight deck, new engines, new landing gear, the commonality of the A350 with the A330 is not real. And the A350 will not be considered the same type as the A330/340, unless Airbus want's to cripple it by forcing it to operate in much the same way a 25 year older design does. But if they do, your point still theoretically stands re: pilots and only pilots. IF, and only if, the carrier already flies newer A330/A340s in large numbers, pilot training may be less, depending on how the final A350 develops.

Also not at all sure where that range chart comes from for the 788, nor do I see how the 789 has the same range as an A359. B's website is not very detailed. Are there other docs someone can point to that show the range/payload charts Airbus is using/misusing?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SWISSER
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 45):
Not true. Since the major redesign, A's been claiming all new parts out of one side of their mouth and commonality out of the other. That graphic that tries to claim that it is somehow cheaper to train pilots to fly A320s and A380s together is nonsense. Or that there is any major part commonality between the A318 and A350. yet they imply that with the graphic. Nobody will buy that line.

I'am talking about operational commonality, not parts!
What time is top of descent?
 
norcal
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:11 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 43):
The layout is the same. The 787 uses bigger screens. The problem with being too rigid with standardisation is that it prevents improvements on future types. The A380 cockpit looks a fair bit different from other Airbus cockpits, but in functionality, it will no doubt will similar to ensure commonality.

That is a good point you bring up. I was just looking at the 747-400 and 777 cockpit posters I have in my room, they both look very similar, though not identical. I guess there is a degree of commonality between the 2?

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 46):
I'am talking about operational commonality, not parts!

What do you mean exactly by operational commonality? Does that mean similar checklist sequences?
 
B2707SST
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 41):
I still don't understand why Boeing doesn't have the exact same cockpit design on all their aircraft. Take the 777 and make it the standard cockpit for all future types.

All we can say is that if Boeing's customers wanted common cockpits badly enough, Boeing would offer them. Boeing itself pioneered commonality on the 757/767, even going so far as to achieve a common type rating, something Airbus has never done. If Boeing continues to pass over this blatantly obvious potential selling point on the 787, it must be for a good reason, e.g. new cockpit technology being worth more to potential customers than commonality with other models. This would indicate that cockpit commonality -- the only commonality it appears that the "now 90+% new" A350 will share with other Airbus models -- is not so valuable as Airbus likes to claim.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
norcal
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RE: A350 Compared To 787 And 772ER According To Airbus

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting B2707SST (Reply 48):
All we can say is that if Boeing's customers wanted common cockpits badly enough, Boeing would offer them. Boeing itself pioneered commonality on the 757/767, even going so far as to achieve a common type rating, something Airbus has never done.

Actually the commonality goes back further than that, the 707, 727, and 737 had commonality.

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