Pope
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:11 pm

I've just returned from a quick trip to the UK flying DL from ATL to LGW. Both legs in BizE. Both legs on 767ER's

The condition of DL's 767ER's are embarrassing. On the way out my seat was broken (not being able to fully extend the leg rest), one of the lavs was non-functional, the other two in the premium cabin were showing tremendous signs of wear and tear, the cabin was full of dust and had a overall dingy and dirty appearance. The pillow waiting on my seat was stained. The blankets were worn and tattered.

When distributing newspapers before takeoff the FA offered me a USAToday. I asked her "is there was anything else" and she answered, "that's what I say when I look at my paycheck."

The meal service was fine but for the rest of the flight until breakfast not a single FA walked through the cabin to check if anyone needed anything else.

On the way back, my seat was again broken as the em-power didn't work. The condition of the cabin was even worse than the aircraft I took on the way over and the FA's were equally unconcerned.

In sharp contrast I took a BA flight from Gatwick to Manchester on Thursday and back to Heathrow on Friday. This is a one class service but you can purchase a business class fare (about 20 GBP more than a regular economy fare). For the 20 GBP you get access to the Terraces lounge at Gatwick, Manchester and Heathrow. A pre-assigned seat and a larger free baggage allowance.

It was the first time I was in a BA Terraces lounge. This lounge is one tier below BA's first class lounge. In every aspect the Terraces lounge beats DL's Crown Room or any BizE lounge it has.

The service on the short (30 - 35 minute) flights were impeccable. A snack box and two drink services were offered. The FA's were attentive and very polite.

Going forward, I think I'll fly BA's economy or premium class over rather than DL's BizE. There's just no comparison between the two carriers.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:14 pm

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
The condition of DL's 767ER's are embarrassing.

Don't worry, they're the same down the back - very shabby indeed. DL need to seriously work on their transatlantic product, it is falling WAY behind the likes of BA and AF.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
luv2fly
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:22 pm

DL is starting to remind me of the carrier that they got all this European routes from. Towards the end people were saying the same about PA!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
avpilot01
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:28 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:25 pm

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
When distributing newspapers before takeoff the FA offered me a USAToday. I asked her "is there was anything else" and she answered, "that's what I say when I look at my paycheck."

Unfortunately Delta, who I used to work for, is falling by the wayside. They are losing hundreds of millions of dollars during the most profitable quarters. How can you improve the quality of your product overall if you are not making any money? I am afraid that BK looms over DL and it will just be a matter of time before they file. There is no way DL can keep losing money as it is and stay in its current form. I really miss the old Delta and I am afraid I will never see it return. In the future for your trips to the UK, try CO, a Delta partner. CO has an award winning business class and the service is impecable, the meals just keep coming. They also fly the 777 to LGW from EWR. A plane that is technologically advanced in every way and I think they are only a few years old. Good luck! Godspeed.
 
rojo
Posts: 2257
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:27 pm

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
When distributing newspapers before takeoff the FA offered me a USAToday. I asked her "is there was anything else" and she answered, "that's what I say when I look at my paycheck."

LOL!!! Good one. I would never expect an answer like that from a F/A...

Employee moral is not good inside DL... a F/A should never say anything regarding her paycheck to passengers. If she is not happy, she should consider getting a new job!! I know it is tough to get pay cuts, but passengers are the ones who keep her in the air!!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:37 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
Don't worry, they're the same down the back - very shabby indeed. DL need to seriously work on their transatlantic product, it is falling WAY behind the likes of BA and AF.

They are doing that now looking at new products for Business Elite.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:39 pm

No better on their 763 from LGA-ATL, nor their MD80s I took from SRQ-ATL and ATL-LGA. Only decent plane was the "Delta Shuttle" one class 738 I took from ATL back to SRQ.

I was embarrassed for DL after flying them last week. Just pitiful. I've ridden on school buses in better shape than their planes.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
sk601
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:59 pm

Is this because it's the busy summer season? Airlines rather have the planes flying than on the ground to do some repairs on -for example- seats. I think that if there is no safety risk that airlines continue flying to minimize delays instead of fixing those minor problems. I know that for the passenger on that specific seat (let's say with the thorn seatcover/broken ptv/broken armrest) it's very inconvenient, but repairing the seat and having a delay is more inconvenient to more pax.

This is NOT to justify any shortcomings on DL maintenance, but just my view of the problem.

KLMs B767-300 and MD11 are in very bad shape as well (the interior), not to mention the F50/70/100 and the B737-300 and -400. Basically only KLMs B777 and the newer B737-800/-900 are OK. the B747 is not bad but certainly not in very good shape.

[Edited 2005-07-25 17:02:44]
 
supa7E7
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:23 am

Nobody seems to bash CO or AA much, but others - NW, US, UA, DL - are all cutting corners on cosmetic / nonessential upkeep of their planes, at least temporarily (until oil prices fall?).

DH, on the other hand, cuts corners on maintenance (according to last week's FAA fines of $1.5m). That is much more alarming.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
CV580Freak
Posts: 886
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:29 am

Maybe the US carriers should ask EK nicely if they can borrow their business plan  wink 
One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 7):
Is this because it's the busy summer season?

Not on the 20 year old 763 I was on, no. It looks to have original seats, including mechanical dials for audio. Though it did have the giant movie screens for IFE, which made me realize that personal video is nice, but a big screen is still cool.

But the plane was dirty, with damaged and scarred bins and materials, in some places treated with the wrong color touch up paint, etc. I couldn't believe that this was the plane they were using to get people from NYC to their showcase hub at ATLanta. Just awful.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
panamair
Posts: 3765
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:45 am

Pope and Ikramerica,

I hope you write in to Delta to tell them about your dissatisfaction (just go to the Customer Care section at delta.com)..They need to know about it so that they can do something about it...
 
Pope
Topic Author
Posts: 3995
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 11):
I hope you write in to Delta to tell them about your dissatisfaction (just go to the Customer Care section at delta.com)..They need to know about it so that they can do something about it...

I did it this morning.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
texdravid
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:15 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 8):
Nobody seems to bash CO or AA much, but others - NW, US, UA, DL - are all cutting corners on cosmetic / nonessential upkeep of their planes, at least temporarily (until oil prices fall?).

Are you kidding? We here at A.net bash every airline, every day. We don't hold any airline above criticism. AA's product ain't great either, especially food. Don't even get me started about those MD-80's.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
SQno1
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
DL need to seriously work on their transatlantic product, it is falling WAY behind the likes of BA and AF.

Do they actually have any money to do this?
 
ARGinLON
Posts: 550
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:24 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 8):
Nobody seems to bash CO or AA much, but others - NW, US, UA, DL - are all cutting corners on cosmetic / nonessential upkeep of their planes, at least temporarily (until oil prices fall?).

They should better do something about it otherwise they will start losing premium customer in the most competitive markets. Remember that both CO and AA pay the same price for jet fuel so blaming this on oil prices is a poor excuse.
 
ckfred
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:26 am

Texdravid:

AA's MD-80s aren't that bad. The seating is much better than what you find on other planes. The problems for AA are that the 757s never got the improved seats that you find on the MD-80s, 737s, 767s, and 777s. My gripe about the MD-80s is that they are flown from ORD to places like LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, SEA, and SAN. These are very long routes to fly without either on-board IFE or portable units for rent.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:29 am

**YAWN**

ATLANTA, March 16, 2005 – Thanks to Delta Air Lines’ (NYSE: DAL) customers and employees, the Atlanta-based airline was ranked one of the top three major U.S. airlines for overall customer satisfaction in the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Airline Satisfaction Index StudySM. In a study that looked exclusively at domestic flights, Delta had the highest index score among global carriers.

“We are excited our customers recognize the efforts we’re making to improve our customer service and provide a consistent, simplified and enjoyable travel experience,” said Paul Matsen, Delta’s chief marketing officer. “We have more to accomplish, but this honor is a direct result of the hard work, energy and commitment our employees demonstrate every day as we continue to transform our airline.”

Delta’s ongoing transformation is based on its commitment to customer satisfaction. Earlier this year, Delta introduced a new, customer-friendly fare structure called SimpliFares™, which offer low domestic fares with no Saturday night stay requirement and reduced most special service fees to $50. The airline also restructured its flight schedule in Atlanta to ensure more on-time arrivals and departures and simplified its SkyMiles® program, making it easier for members to qualify for Medallion® status.

The results of the J.D. Power and Associates study are based on responses from more than 2,600 passengers who flew on a major U.S. airline between May and October 2004. Overall customer satisfaction is measured based on performance in five factors (in order of importance): check-in/boarding/deplaning process; flight reservation/scheduling process; aircraft interior; in-flight amenities; and flight crew.

Delta received an overall satisfaction index score of 692 out of a possible 1,000 points – 28 points above the industry average. It received particularly high ratings for ease of making a reservation, courtesy/friendliness of reservation staff and speed of check-in process.
 
texdravid
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 16):
My gripe about the MD-80s is that they are flown from ORD to places like LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, SEA, and SAN. These are very long routes to fly without either on-board IFE or portable units for rent.

Ckfred,
I agree that the MD-80's are pretty comfortable in terms of seating, except for those rear seats near the engines.

You are absolutely right in griping about MD-80's being used for long domestic routes in the 3.5 hours + range. UA's Airbuses and DL 757/767's are much better in this regard.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting SQNo1 (Reply 14):
Do they actually have any money to do this?

No, and with a bad product and no money, welcome to BK court. Just what CO and AA need, another major protected by the courts, competing directly.

AA and CO could split up DLs assets pretty nicely though, dumping the old equipment, but keeping the newer, fleet compatible planes. CO/AA could probably make good use of SLC/MCO/TPA, CVG could close the old terminals and consolidate multiple carriers into the nice facilities, but who'd want Atlanta? Yuck.

Then again, they don't have money to do it.

The problem is, there is at least one too many carrier in the USA, but not too much capacity. One needs to fold, but the employees and planes need to go somewhere, and nobody else really has the money to take advantage of the fire sale who'd want to.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
toltommy
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:39 am

Pope, I'm curious, were you a full revenue J ticket, or upgrading with miles? I think the biggest problem for US carriers is that they've made it too easy to get into premium cabins, so the product is being reduced to match the revenue it provides. Domestic first is nothing special anymore, and certainly not worth the revenue premium most majors try to get from it. AirTran has it correct, to me it's worht an extra $35/leg to upgrade on domestic flights.

OTOH, premium international flying seems to be where the money is, so the domestic carriers all seem to be upgrading products.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 17):
**YAWN**

ATLANTA, March 16, 2005 – Thanks to Delta Air Lines’ (NYSE: DAL) customers and employees, the Atlanta-based airline was ranked one of the top three major U.S. airlines for overall customer satisfaction in the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Airline Satisfaction Index StudySM. In a study that looked exclusively at domestic flights, Delta had the highest index score among global carriers.

The OP is talking about a International flight, not domestic!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
panamair
Posts: 3765
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:11 am

Actually, I just had two excellent DL transatlantic flights in BizElite in the last week.
First, on TXL-JFK, the flight was on time departing and early arriving; cabin and lavs were clean; all seat controls worked, all channels of PTV were in great working order, and best of all, the FAs were attentive, efficient, and friendly, despite it being a completely full flight. They were regularly in the cabin distributing water bottles and other drinks in between meals, and checking up on those pax. who were awake.

Likewise on JFK-CDG two days later except for the punctuality part due to weather at JFK, the FAs really went out of their way to provide more personalized service, pretty much addressing us by name every time they came near us. The passenger next to me, a regular BA ClubWorld flyer who hadn't flown DL in a long time, told me she was suitably impressed with the flight and even went up to the FA at the end and thanked her for a "very pleasant flight".

Overall, DL may not have the cleanest airplanes (that title belongs to SQ) or the most up-to-date video equipment all the time, but they do pretty well on the "software" part - many front-line employees are usually more helpful, friendly, and courteous than at most other legacy carriers....
 
formerhongky
Posts: 30
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:28 am

I used to fly DL BizElite a lot (non-rev) and I can attest that there is a huge variation in service quality. Some of the 767s are beautiful (albeit cramped -- a decision by DL to go with 2-2-2, when they really should have taken CO's lead and go 2-1-2) and some are very tatty. On some flights I got very attentive and gracious service despite the fact I was a non-rev, on other flights it was obvious the F/As had disappeared and were avoiding all the premium customers. They definitely need to come up with a way of building more consistent service standards.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:34 am

Surprise, surprise....Padcrasher rehashed some meaningless survey to try to tell us how great DL's service was. Only this time, the survey isn't even applicable....hilarious.

DL's BizE product is out-dated and worn out. It was a good product when it was introduced, but it's time has come and gone. Even DL's management has admitted that BizE needs help. Of course, ol' Padcrasher knows more than DL management and thinks everything is just fine with BizE.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:36 am

If you ask me it is not just DL's premium services that are embarrasing. It is ALL of DL's services that are embarrasing. The same could be said for all Legacy carriers with the exception of CO these days.
One Nation Under God
 
Pope
Topic Author
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 20):
Pope, I'm curious, were you a full revenue J ticket, or upgrading with miles?

I paid $3,400 for my ticket because confirmed upgrades weren't available when I booked. But does it really matter? Assume that the person flying next to me is a Platinum level FF who is flying 100,000 miles a year on DL. The service both of us got was the same.

Delta's now managed to convince me that the FAR better value is a BA premium economy (or whatever the call it) ticket at no more than 1/2 the price I paid Delta. Their poor level of service has also managed to convinced the Platinum FF that being loyal to Delta to gain the coveted FF bonuses really doesn't make sense because he gets treated poorly when he redeems the miles.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
panamair
Posts: 3765
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
DL's BizE product is out-dated and worn out. It was a good product when it was introduced, but it's time has come and gone

Worn-out, maybe, but not necessarily outdated. BizElite is still better than the AF old J seats (of which there are still many around), LX A330 J, UA, AA, LH old J seats (plenty of them around on the 744s),...and has even more seat recline and pitch than (gasp!) the CO BF seats on the 767s and 757s!!

And honestly, IMHO, BizElite seats are still more comfortable than those 'fake' lie-flat seats one finds in the new LH and LX J cabins..

Actually, if you bother to look at it closely, CO has not revamped BusinessFirst on their 762s, 752s, and 764s at all..only the 777s got the new seats with the 170 degree recline. The BF seats on the 76s and 75s still have 55 inch pitch and about 150-155 degree recline. So if DL is to be criticized for not having an 'updated' product, CO can be accused of the same on a large chunk of their international fleet as well...

And as for personalized service, I have NEVER been addressed by name on any AF, BA, or LH J flights...their J cabins are usually quite large and the FAs usually don't bother trying to customize their service to you...
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Formerhongky (Reply 23):
I used to fly DL BizElite a lot (non-rev) and I can attest that there is a huge variation in service quality. Some of the 767s are beautiful

While I haven't flow Bus E in a while so I cannot attest to the service. I will agree with this with respect to the condition of the interiors. There seems to be a couple demarcations on the DL 763ERs in-terms of what they are like. It all seems to have to do with some level of age. When I flew to MAD in may I was on an older 736ER (ship 182 I think). It had the CRTs in the aisles and the CRT projection system. A lot of stuff looked pretty worn out in both cabins, including my in-seat audio. Coming back I was on one of the newer GE powered 763ERs (16XX series ships?) it has the LCDs in the aisles and LCD projectors, the cabin was in pretty good shape, the audio controls are in a different place and the seats in coach headrest wings. Last night I did a domestic flight on ship 197, it seems to be half way between the two in terms of technology and cabin condition. I know that DL is going to be refurbishing the cabins on alot of aircraft in the near future and hopefully they have the 763ERs scheduled. I know that this summer they are all pretty much being used all the time so taking an a/c offline for elective mtc is probably not going to happen.
 
LawnDart
Posts: 861
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):

AA and CO could split up DLs assets pretty nicely though, dumping the old equipment, but keeping the newer, fleet compatible planes. CO/AA could probably make good use of SLC/MCO/TPA, CVG could close the old terminals and consolidate multiple carriers into the nice facilities, but who'd want Atlanta? Yuck.

Huh? AA nearly filed for bankruptcy last year, CO has just warned they may need to reorganize, and ATL was one of the strongest, most profitable hubs in the world until just recently. DL would be in a much bigger world of hurt if not for ATL. The hub in SLC is probably borderline, and MCO and TPA have some of the lowest yields in the nation - they work for DL because ATL backs them up.

CO was, just a short time ago, the crappiest airline in the U.S. It is a testament to their management (Bethune and Company) and to their employees that they've come as far as they have. Still, they have plenty of debt and shouldn't be looking to buy anyone...the same goes for AA.

Having said that, there probably will be further mergers/buyouts...egos rule. And after that, so will WN, because any mergers will saddle the surviving entity with even more debt.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
The problem is, there is at least one too many carrier in the USA, but not too much capacity.

Again...huh? Most analysts believe there is too much capacity in the USA.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 20):
I think the biggest problem for US carriers is that they've made it too easy to get into premium cabins, so the product is being reduced to match the revenue it provides. Domestic first is nothing special anymore, and certainly not worth the revenue premium most majors try to get from it

Bingo...however:

Quoting Pope (Reply 26):
I paid $3,400 for my ticket because confirmed upgrades weren't available when I booked. But does it really matter? Assume that the person flying next to me is a Platinum level FF who is flying 100,000 miles a year on DL. The service both of us got was the same.

Well, in a sense it does really matter, because if 5 people paid $3,400 dollars for the service, and 5 people paid, say...$1,200 for the service plus an upgrade, then everyone will get $2,300 dollars worth of service, which is a disservice to those that paid the full fare (did that just make sense?).

Quoting Panamair (Reply 22):
but they do pretty well on the "software" part - many front-line employees are usually more helpful, friendly, and courteous than at most other legacy carriers....

Delta has never been in the forefront when it comes to hardware (IFE, new seats); their strength has always been in the personal touch, and hopefully that is what will get them out of the current situation.
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 27):
I thought I'd never hear from you again after the "Delta's Costs are going up" bullshit I nailed your ass on. Boy you didn't hang around long after that....LOL
Pulled a "luv2fly" tactical retreat.



Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 27):
Carry on little boys.

Get over yourself, please, for all our sakes and your own.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 27):
Did you see Delta's cost this Q? They went down "or" in PNSboy world they went up, however you want to look at it...LOL

Yeah, well, it's a bit off topic, but if you care to act so rudely, I guess we can discuss it here -- DL's costs, despite your best efforts to brainwash everyone to the contrary, are still too high. They are higher than AA's, the new legacy benchmark. AA made a net and operating profit in Q2, so did CO. DL, on the other hand, lost millions any way you cut it. Now, please, don't pull a "Padcrasher" and accept that you are wrong.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:46 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
They are higher than AA's, the new legacy benchmark.

Commavia, I cannot get why you continue to spout wrong facts. You lob these soft balls to me and I knock them out of the park. Here you go again. You just don't learn.

How Commavia? How are Delta's cost higher than American? Man, you are slow.
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 32):
How are Delta's cost higher than American?

In every metric I can see, AA's costs are lower than DL's. Per their press releases on Q2 financial results:

AA's mainline CASM: 10.03c
DL's mainline CASM: 10.66c

AA's mainline CASM ex special items: 10.03c
DL's mainline CASM ex special items: 10.42c

AA's mainline CASM ex special items and fuel impact: 7.31c
DL's mainline CASM ex special items and fuel impact: 7.82c

It's clear as day -- I truly don't understand why, Padcrasher, this is so hard for you to see when it is out there for the whole world to read. DL's costs are simply higher than AA's. It's just a fact. Now, you can go on saying that I "sput wrong facts," and you keep "[knocking] [my wrong facts] out of the park," but do you care to tell me where, exactly, I am reading AA's and DL's own numbers incorrectly? Please, enlighten us all on how 10.66 is less than 10.03, how 10.42 is less than 10.03, and how 7.82 is less than 7.31.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 32):
Man, you are slow.

I'm not even kidding now, seriously -- get over yourself!

Why do I bother?
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
I guess we can discuss it here -- DL's costs, despite your best efforts to brainwash everyone to the contrary, are still too high. They are higher than AA's, the new legacy benchmark.

Waiting to discuss? Geez don't tell me you need to back thru the Q reports to find this out.
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 34):
Waiting to discuss? Geez don't tell me you need to back thru the Q reports to find this out.

I've responded -- please see reply 33 -- but I refuse to stoop to your level. Once again, please proceed in enlightening us all.
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:59 am

Well you cited DL's consolidated costs vs Americans' mainline costs.

You did not learn last Quarter when you made the same mistake.

LOL! Good one.
 
padcrasher
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:08 am

Commavia staring at the Q reports is not going to change anything.

I guess there's nothing more to discuss?
 
commavia
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:10 am

My apologies to all. I incorrectly compared AA's mainline-only costs with DL's consolidated costs. Nonetheless, the fact remains -- DL is financially in the ER, while AA is profitable. Speaks volumes.
 
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malaysia
Posts: 2616
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:13 am

I non-revved hundreds of times in Business Elite on DL international routes,

same seats, food was always decent, but the seats have long been generic
even CI used the same seat for Dynasty Class on its A340-300 order except
its maroon. Since I dont work for DL anymore, I have still flown on CI
and in Dynasty class, I go oh geee its Delta again haha. but actually too many
carry on suit case marks on the seat walls and many nicks and scratches on
the brushed aluminum and plastic. The seats are falling apart anyway.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
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litz
Posts: 1884
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 17):
Delta received an overall satisfaction index score of 692 out of a possible 1,000 points – 28 points above the industry average. It received particularly high ratings for ease of making a reservation, courtesy/friendliness of reservation staff and speed of check-in process.

You know .... I don't know what's scarier ... the fact that "one of the top 3 major US airlines" only scored a 69.2%, which at any grade school in the nation is a failing grade (70%, or 700 on that scale, would equal a C-, or 'passing') ...

Or the fact that the AVERAGE in the industry is 28 points LOWER ...

- litz
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:35 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 8):
Nobody seems to bash CO or AA much,

you haven't read most of the threads regarding AA then... Wink

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 16):
AA's MD-80s aren't that bad. The seating is much better than what you find on other planes. The problems for AA are that the 757s never got the improved seats that you find on the MD-80s, 737s, 767s, and 777s. My gripe about the MD-80s is that they are flown from ORD to places like LAX, SFO, LAS, PHX, SEA, and SAN. These are very long routes to fly without either on-board IFE or portable units for rent.

I fly from SFO/SJC-ORD every few weeks on those "Maddog-80's"..I love 'em..bring my laptop and noise-reduction headphones and I'm set...(not to mention food from home).... bigthumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 27):
I thought I'd never hear from you again after the "Delta's Costs are going up" bullshit I nailed your ass on. Boy you didn't hang around long after that....LOL

I was right, DL's costs did go up in the 2nd quarter. Of course, the increase was due to special items that you conveniently ignore (kind of like that fuel item you ALWAYS ignore). However, since DL has "special" items EVERY quarter, they really aren't special and should be included in the cost calculations.

I really like how you try to attack me for another thread to try and hide the fact that you made a fool of yourself on this post. You are a true embarassment to Delta.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:26 am

Unbelievable PNSboy gets it wrong again! Delta's cost's did go down including special items...LOL

Operating Cost Per Available Seat
Mile (cents) (1) 10.66 10.88 -2.0%
Operating Cost Per Available Seat
Mile - excluding special items -
see Note 1 (cents) (1) 10.42 10.58 -1.5%
Operating Costs Per Available Seat
Mile - excluding fuel expense and
special items - see Note 1 (cents) (1) 7.82 8.85 -11.6%
Passenger Load Factor (1) 78.23% 76.60% 1.6 pts
Breakeven Passenger Load Factor (1) 80.84% 81.66% (0.8)pts
Breakeven Passenger Load Factor -
excluding special items - see
Note 1 (1) 78.91% 79.21% (0.3)pts
Passengers Enplaned (thousands) (1) 31,582 30,833 2.4%
Fuel Gallons Consumed (millions) 657 639 2.8%
Average Price Per Fuel Gallon, net
of hedging gains (cents) 160.24 104.53 53.3%
Number of Aircraft in Fleet, End of
Period 869 842 3.2%
Full-Time Equivalent Employees, End
of Period 65,300 70,300 -7.1%

Mainline:
Revenue Passenger Miles (millions) 27,497 25,714 6.9%
Available Seat Miles (millions) 34,698 33,198 4.5%
Operating Cost Per Available Seat
Mile (cents) 9.92 10.32 -3.9%
Operating Cost Per Available Seat
Mile - excluding special items -
see Note 1 (cents) 9.65 9.97 -3.2%
Operating Costs Per Available Seat
Mile - excluding fuel expense and
special items - see Note 1 (cents) 7.11 8.30 -14.3%
Number of Aircraft in Fleet, End of
Period 522 550 -5.1


Strike Three!
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:29 am

Oh I get it PNS! Delta's cost went up including special items this Quarter but not including the special items the year before...LOL

As always PNSboy enjoy your analysis...LOL
 
FlyPNS1
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:39 am

I meant to say in the 1st quarter, where DL's costs did go UP including special items. The thread where you supposedly nailed me was when we were discussing 1st quarter results (2nd quarter results hadn't been released at the time). You insisted that in the 1st quarter DL's costs went down, when in reality they went up.

Of course, DL's cost cuts aren't doing much particularly with DL's pathetic RASM performance. If DL's service is so good (as you and all these surveys claim), why isn't DL getting a greater revenue premium?

Of course, this thread isn't about costs. You are simply trying to hide behind that because you made a fool of yourself quoting a survey that didn't apply.
 
padcrasher
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:49 am

Oh got it PNSboy . In the future when I'm talking about Delta let's just assume it's in real time or at least the Quarter in the past. Not 6 Month ago Slick Willie.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:52 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 33):
In every metric I can see, AA's costs are lower than DL's. Per their press releases on Q2 financial results:

AA's mainline CASM: 10.03c
DL's mainline CASM: 10.66c

AA's mainline CASM ex special items: 10.03c
DL's mainline CASM ex special items: 10.42c

AA's mainline CASM ex special items and fuel impact: 7.31c
DL's mainline CASM ex special items and fuel impact: 7.82c

Well, I am not defending Padcrasher's general statements (I have no basis) but she is correct on the operations.
http://www.shareholder.com/aa/EdgarD...?CIK=4515&FID=4515-05-30&SID=05-00
&
http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=9797

Looking at mainline operations, including all charges.
AA CASM = 10.03¢
DL CASM = 09.92¢ (10.66¢ for all OPs).

As for revenue, AA is doing better,

AA RASM = 10.54¢
DL RASM = 09.67¢

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I was right, DL's costs did go up in the 2nd quarter. Of course, the increase was due to special items that you conveniently ignore (kind of like that fuel item you ALWAYS ignore). However, since DL has "special" items EVERY quarter, they really aren't special and should be included in the cost calculations.

DL Consol CASM (w/ spec items) Q1 2005 = 12.16¢
DL ML CASM (w/ spec items) Q1 2005 = 11.62¢
DL Consol CASM (w/ spec items) Q2 2005 = 10.66¢
DL ML CASM (w/ spec items) Q2 2005 = 10.42¢

DL Consol CASM (w/o spec items) Q1 2005 = 10.75¢
DL ML CASM (w/o spec items) Q1 2005 = 9.98¢
DL Consol CASM (w/o spec items) Q2 2005 = 9.92¢
DL ML CASM (w/o spec items) Q2 2005 = 9.65¢

So by both the special items and the no special items measures DL's cost went down Q1 to Q2. That is with the average fuel price going from $1.41/gallon to $1.60/gallon.

As for what you should consider when comparing Q to Q, generally operating costs plus a/c interest are the most useful. That and actual cashflow.
 
VS747SPUR
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:35 am

RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:55 am

I must admit I didn't find DL's 763's too bad transatlantic. How old are DL's transatlantic 763's ?

Many thanks,
VS747SPUR
Fly DL
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:59 am

This whole childish and silly argument about 'costs' is really throwing a Red herring.

If, indeed, DL has the lowest costs in the industry, and they are STILL hemmoraging cash, then they are really, really in trouble.

I can't understand why this isn't the whole jist of the argument about the financial shape of DL.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Embarrassing Condition Of DL's Premium Service

Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 49):
If, indeed, DL has the lowest costs in the industry, and they are STILL hemmoraging cash, then they are really, really in trouble.

I can't understand why this isn't the whole jist of the argument about the financial shape of DL.

You are absolutely right. Unfortunately, some people on this board can't see the whole picture. Padcrasher believes that low costs and a couple of surveys will make DL successful. However, most people that are grounded in reality know there is much more to it.

DL may very well have the lowest costs of the legacies, but those low costs are offset by DL's equally low yields. One piece that contributes to DL's low yields is DL's product (particularly the premium product).