WINGS
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Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:44 am

In an interview to Portuguese Newspaper, Fernando Pinto the CEO, of Tap Portugal spoke that a decision to renew its A310-300 fleet and possibly its A340 with either A350 or B787, is expected during September. Its curious that the B787-300 is not mentioned, only the B787-800/900. Tap will opt for an all long haul fleet from either Airbus or Boeing. As to their short haul, they are completely satisfied with the A320 family.

http://dn.sapo.pt//2005/07/25/negoci...embro_escolhemos_entre_airbus.html

This link is only in Portuguese.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
columba
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:06 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Its curious that the B787-300 is not mentioned, only the B787-800/900.

This must be a Star Alliance thing, same is with Lufthansa you would expect them being interested in the 787-300 but they publicly stated interest only in the long haul versions.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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solnabo
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:06 am

My bet goes to A350.....

Mike//SE  crossfingers 
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:12 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 2):
My bet goes to A350.....

For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you. When's the last time TAP bought a Boeing? They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...
 
Adria
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:18 am

The A350 is probably a better solution for the A343 and because of the commonality the A310 could also be replaced with it. Boeing does not offer a good A343/772ER replacement.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you. When's the last time TAP bought a Boeing? They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...

well years ago no one would say that BA would order the A320 instead of the 737NG, so anything can happen
 
TAP1972
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:21 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...

It can work the other way either.... Boeing being interested in the deal and provide better conditions.

I've heard that TAP was waiting for 2 A330's from Swiss. This was mentioned in another tread. Anyone nows anything about this?

[Edited 2005-07-26 22:35:34]
 
jacobin777
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you

i second that notion...
"Up the Irons!"
 
boeingbus
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:32 am

Pinto loves Boeing and this time around European politics are not at play as it used to be in the early 90's.. Also, you have to wait and see what happens with Varig... who knows - RG is a 777 operator so that may be a deciding factor in this decision...

Don't discount Boeing... Star members have been looking at the 787 heavily as of late. New Zealand, ANA, AC, LOT, SIA, and TP all looking into or have already bought the 787...

Time will tell...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
columba
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 4):
Boeing does not offer a good A343/772ER replacement.

Well Airbus does not a offer a good 757/767/A310/A300
replacement either.... Yeah sure
The A350 is more of a 777/A340 replacement and the A330 is too big to serve short and medium hauls.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:04 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 3):
For the first and possibly last time, I'm going to agree with you. When's the last time TAP bought a Boeing? They're in bed with Airbus, Boeing is just helping them get a better deal...

In my opinion this is a fairly accurate assesment. I also think the A-350 will get the nod here.
One Nation Under God
 
NYC777
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:22 am

They're certainly going to go with the A350. TAP will only use Boeing to extract concessions from Airbus.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:35 am

Hi!

Well if TAP is on the final stages to decide what model will replace the A310 and eventually the A340 it would be obvious that had to be both companies that built airplanes for that class, unfortunetely at this moment we just have Boeing and Airbus so one of them will certainly win. After reading Mr. Fernando Pinto words the information that I got from a TAP crew member a few years ago is very relevant, only at that time there wasn't either the A350 and the 787, so the new strategy is quite intelligent. I think Airbus have the best option for TAP, if we look closely when TAP would receive the first 787? With Airbus, TAP can start right away to replace the A310-300's with the A330-200's and then trade them for the brand new A350. With Boeing TAP would probably need to keep longer that A310's and those airplanes NEED badly to leave TAP!!!
Has an aviation enthusiast anything that comes will be great for TAP so I'm looking forward to see the final choise in two months!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
SRT75
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:52 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Its curious that the B787-300 is not mentioned, only the B787-800/900

I thought I read somewhere that Boeing is skipping -200 to -700 for the 787 for no apparent reasons. The only models will be 787-100 (the test bed) and then -800/-900.

Am I wrong??
 
PPVRA
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:56 am

The only problem with the A350 is that it is simply too big to fly to the NE of Brazil. It would surely be the best option to fly to GRU/GIG/EWR and longer routes to Africa, but thats about half or less than TAP's longhaul network. TAP has also expressed their wish to expand to other cities in Brazil, which are more 787-sized markets. CCS service also.

I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered both types.


Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
In an interview to Portuguese Newspaper, Fernando Pinto the CEO, of Tap Portugal spoke that a decision to renew its A310-300 fleet and possibly its A340 with either A350 or B787, is expected during September.

TAP is still interested in RG and has stated that in September they will introduce "a more complete" [referring to the first attempt] proposal to RG.

By September RG should be already restructured, if all goes with the plan. In that case, the A350 would be a really good deal since RG needs many long range, B777/A350/MD-11 capacity. Not to mention all the "old" MD-11s (15 of them or so. Would be sad to see them go, but that's life).

OTOH, some 787s would be nice to expand RG's network out of the NE of Brazil to the USA/Europe and, acording to the interview above, would give "strong efficiency gains" for TP's fleet.

Can wait to hear the final decision!!

Cheers,
PPVRA

[Edited 2005-07-27 00:04:12]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 12):

There are three models: B787-3, -8, and -9. I believe the -8 is the test bed.

PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:43 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered both types.

I agree with you, and the decision could be from where TP can fit their needs in terms of when they need the planes (i think nowadays Boeing keeps more availabilities for until 2010 deliveries, i'm right ?).

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
The only problem with the A350 is that it is simply too big to fly to the NE of Brazil. It would surely be the best option to fly to GRU/GIG/EWR and longer routes to Africa, but thats about half or less than TAP's longhaul network. TAP has also expressed their wish to expand to other cities in Brazil, which are more 787-sized markets. CCS service also.

But with a long haul they can just fit all the needs (even using a big plane to FOR / NAT / REC / SSA and MCZ future flights) and can give more flexibility to improve and reduce flights. Nowadays the flexibility they have concerning to A340 is limited due to its little fleet. They can use the A340 for NAT but can't use the A310 for GRU. And there is market on Northeast to improve service (SSA and FOR are always full on Y and C).

Rgds,
Felipe

[Edited 2005-07-27 00:44:46]
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):

There are three models: B787-3, -8, and -9. I believe the -8 is the test bed.

The -8 will be the first off the line. However, each one needs to be certified independently, so they are all technically testbeds.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:00 am

Dont count Boeing out of this one, the 787 could take this order.

Firstly, just because TAP has not purchased any aircraft from Boeing in recent years does not mean that TAP will always remain exclusively Airbus in the future. We have been surpirsed again and again when airlines have a fleet dominated by aircraft built by one manufacturer and then opt for the other with a big order. This order can go either way.....TAP would not be the first airline to fly Boeings for longhaul and Airbus for short haul, would they?

Secondly, the A350 is a bigger airplane than the 787......TAP flies its A313s on many thin but profitable routes out of Lisbon including the very popular services to "secondary" Brazilian cities. The A358 may simply be too big for many of these routes......its a significant jump in capacity from an A313 to an A358 and all of those extra seats could affect frequency and yeilds on the routes. A 788/789 combination may work much better for TAP than an A358/A359 mix.....so this will be a real competition between the two types.

This will be an interesting order to watch. Airbus "upsized" the A350 program for several reasons - to make the performance and economy numbers work in their favor, to keep EK happy (per many reports and rumors) and to offer an aircraft that could compete head-on with the 772 as well as the 787. Not everyone thought that Airbus made the correct decision.....is the A350 a bigger airplane than many airlines need? The market will decide in the long run, but TAP's decision may be an indication if Airbus was right or wrong when it supersized the A350.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 16):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):

There are three models: B787-3, -8, and -9. I believe the -8 is the test bed.

The -8 will be the first off the line. However, each one needs to be certified independently, so they are all technically testbeds.

True. The term I was looking for was "base model." The -8 is the base model, right?

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):

But with a long haul they can just fit all the needs (even using a big plane to FOR / NAT / REC / SSA and MCZ future flights) and can give more flexibility to improve and reduce flights. Nowadays the flexibility they have concerning to A340 is limited due to its little fleet. They can use the A340 for NAT but can't use the A310 for GRU. And there is market on Northeast to improve service (SSA and FOR are always full on Y and C).

I don't understand how they could fill a B772 sized aircraft to places such as NAT, REC and MCZ. Also, keep in mind that these will be brand new aircraft, quite an investment for such low-yielding market (mostly tourists).

Destinations like GRU and GIG certainly are beyond the 787 capacity, but then a second daily flight by TP could resolve that problem. Serving CNF non-stop could also take a lot of pax out of GRU/GIG.

My two cents anyways,
PPVRA
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Velasco
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:44 am

With EADS current investment in OGMA (Oficinas Gerais de Material Aeronautico), the maintenance firm located in Alverca, and with OGMA's interest in grabbing a share of the A350 subcontracting, I would say the chance of TAP opting for Boeing ranges between 0 and -10. Whatever the relative merits of the airplanes.
Lisboa-Rio on the A340... São Pedro e São Paulo down below...
 
avek00
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 4):
The A350 is probably a better solution for the A343 and because of the commonality the A310 could also be replaced with it.

The A350 will share little commonality with the other Airbus widebodies

Quoting CV990 (Reply 11):
I think Airbus have the best option for TAP, if we look closely when TAP would receive the first 787?

TAP could still be one of the early 787 operators if it so desired
Live life to the fullest.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting Velasco (Reply 19):

Your post is exactly what TP has done for the last 30 years. Very sad that an airline has to surrender itself because of external pressures. The 787 is an excellent A310 replacement plane because Airbus doesn't have an equal. A350 is ideal for the A343. So maybe they will do both.

But stuff like this saddens me because they seem to always repeat bad history... it's like a broken record. very sad!

TP needs to go private and report to true shareholders NOT governments and special interests. Portugal seems to always mismanage everything they touch, see, and do.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
SWISSER
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 5):
I've heard that TAP was waiting for 2 A330's from Swiss. This was mentioned in another tread. Anyone nows anything about this?

LX needs all Longhaulers and even plans to add more soon!
So I don't expect them to go...Dry wet or sold...
But interesting rumour nevertheless!
What time is top of descent?
 
Brasuca
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 21):
Portugal seems to always mismanage everything they touch, see, and do.

Hmm... My country can be an evidence of that.

Sorry.. Couldn't resist.. Big grin
Varig, Varig, Varig
 
sq212
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:00 pm

It's a no brainer. TAP will go for A350. Of course, Airbus will deflate the inflated price of A350 to make it no match for B787.

 Yeah sure
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:17 pm

Hi!

I would like to state that for me the 787 or the A350 will ALWAYS be a great achievement for TAP. TAP over the years have been very wise the way they choosed their fleets, the only exception was infact when TAP started to think about replacing their fleet in early 80's and had 3 options from McDonnell Douglas, Boeing and Lockheed and choosed Lockheed, that was not the best move although the plane was excelent TAP ordered the Tristar shortly before Lockheed closed the line.....
But afterwards TAP have been choosing widely their new airplanes, and I think with Mr. Fernando Pinto TAP certainly will get the best airplane for their medium to long-haul fleet. Now I still don't have a date when the 787 will start flying commercially, buit guessing a bit TAP will never receive their 787's before 2010, and it looks to me that keeping the A310 for another 4 years is too long, so Airbus option is more consistant, TAP would get a good transition using the A330 for the next 4 years and get then the A350, we can't never forget that certifying pilots from the A310/A340 to the A330/A350 will be much smoother than to get them to the 787, also we can't forget that if TAP will increase the number of the A350 in the future some pilots from the A319/320/321 family will have also a very smooth transition to the A330/A350. Another point is that TAP is starting to return their A310's to ILFC so with Boeing TAP would need to get a model to replace the Airbus ina short notice and what type does Boeing have to offer for TAP? The 767?
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Adria
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:40 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Well Airbus does not a offer a good 757/767/A310/A300
replacement either....

That's true but I wonder if there is a huge market for a 220 seat long-haul widebody (a slightly bigger aircraft is always more economical that's why we see a lot more B767-300ERs that those 200ERs).

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
The A350 will share little commonality with the other Airbus widebodies

??
 
WINGS
Topic Author
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:50 pm

I thought that Boeing has an UFO for the purchase of 6x B787. This could very well be for Tap Portugal, to replace its current 6x A310-300 fleet. It just may be that it was Tap that placed a reservation and not LOT as many of us suspect.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
HEGAN
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:49 pm

For their fleet structure, Airbus makes more sense.
For their route structure, Boeing makes more sense.

Any of them could be. However, I think we will see an order for the A350, even if it's too big for some routes.

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Well Airbus does not a offer a good 757/767/A310/A300 replacement

No it doesn't, but how many orders has Boeing for their -300?
The case is that TAP operates many niche long haul routes, representing a very important part of all their long haul traffic.

Will be interesting to know the decision.

Agur,
Hegan
HEGAN: Euskadiko Aeronautikako eta Espazioko Clusterra
 
avek00
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:03 pm

Quoting Adria (Reply 26):
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
The A350 will share little commonality with the other Airbus widebodies

??

Airbus has already stated that the 350 will have little commonality with the A330/A340.
Live life to the fullest.
 
TAP1972
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:01 pm

As CV990 mentioned the decision might pend to the one that will be able to provide a short term solution untill TAP gets the new planes wether it is A350 or B787. Right now TAP needs to add to their long haul fleet 2 or 3 aircrafts and start replacing the A310's.

Therfore, Airbus might be in advantage as they could provide the A330's untill they get replaced by the A350's.
 
ka
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:14 pm

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 22):
LX needs all Longhaulers and even plans to add more soon!
So I don't expect them to go...Dry wet or sold...
But interesting rumour nevertheless!

I don´t think TAP1972 meant currently operated LX-A332. Rather originally SR/LX-operated a/c.
For example there are still 3 ex-SR/LX A332 stored in CGN for possible use at Bluewings (though I don´t think that will ever materialize). Maybe TAP tries to get their hands on those...

KA.
Keep smiling - you might be on Radar!
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:39 am

Hi!

If TAP is getting at this point the A330 to replace first the A310's certainly they will get the A330-200, the TAP Airbus A310-300's have betwen 17 years old ( CS-TEH ) and 14 years old ( CS-TEX ), so it's about time for TAP from September on replace them, if TAP makes the deal with Airbus I wonder if Airbus will offer TAP brand new A330-200's or 2nd. hand ones, I personally think that TAP should get new A330's, and if possible TAP should have the same engine type that they will have when they get the A350's. Regarding the A340's TAP have, they still have a few years left and I think according to the information given by Mr. Fernando Pinto, if TAP will start getting the A350 in 2011 and they the replacement will go all way to the A340 either that really makes sense, from now on it will be 6 more years and in 2011 the A340's will be betwen 17 years and 16 years old so right on time to leave the fleet.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:59 am

I really dont think that TAP's A310s are in need of immediate replacement - at 14 to 17 years old, they can certainly stay with TAP for another 5 years until the 787s or A350s can be expected. If TAP requires additonal capcity in the short term, TAP would have no trouble finding additional A313s or even A340s on the second hand and leasing market to allow expansion in the next couple of years.

Does it make sense for TAP to acquire a few A332s (which also probably cannot be delivered until late 2006 at the earliest), fly the type for a few years, and then move on to the A350 or 787 to replace the entire longhaul fleet - probably not. TAP will make the major decision concerning its longhaul fleet independent of its short term needs; TAP can explore many different alternatives to get it through the next few years.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:07 am

If TAP plan to offer full-flat biz seats, J-closets/big lavs/lounge, economy plus sections etc etc, the A358 is not too big after all. Most legacy carriers have 30-40% less seats in their long-haulers than aircraft manufacturers claim they can put in because of all the frills offered in biz class.

Perhaps the 787 will be too small because of this...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
boeingbus
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:10 am

I totally agree with you Dutchjet. The A310 were recently refurbished w/ lie flat business seats... if they need additional capacity, they will get a short term lease till the 787 or A350 arrive.

I can see several more years of use of their A310... 787 will be made available in 2008. Only 3 years away if they can buy slots from a leasing company or TP may already have on its own and we just don’t know it. The A310 should be fine till then... But the A350 is another story EIS dates are still not firm... some say 2010 but I have heard 2012 is more likely. So a long term A330 lease till the A350 arrive is more probable than not…

Again, the Boeing 787 has a real good chance. It's exactly what they need and within a reasonable time frame to maximize the use of their A310.

Cheers,

Ric
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
WINGS
Topic Author
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 33):
TAP would have no trouble finding additional A313s or even A340s on the second hand and leasing market to allow expansion in the next couple of years.

I don't know about the A310-300, but when it comes down to acquiring second hand A340, they are very very hard to come across.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
TAP1972
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:27 am

"A TAP tem falta de aviões face ao crescimento. Como resolve o problema no imediato?"

"Estamos no mercado de leasing, estudando a hipótese do A340 e do A330. Mas com grandes dificuldades, porque existe uma procura muito grande, dado o crescimento do mercado asiático"

Translation:

Q: TAP is short on planes according to its growth. How do you solve the problem in the meantime?

A: We're looking into the leasing market, studying the chances of a A340 or A330, but experiencing several dificulties as there's a huge demand, due the growth on the Asian market


According to Mr. Fernando Pinto they are looking into getting 2nd handed planes on the short term, either a A330 or A340, as an adition to the fleet and not replace any of the A310's.

So I would say the key point for the decision, will be the delivery dates for the A350 or the B787, as well as price.

[Edited 2005-07-27 19:28:53]
 
dutchjet
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 36):

I don't know about the A310-300, but when it comes down to acquiring second hand A340, they are very very hard to come across.

Regards,
Wings

True, but A340s will become available in the coming years - just an idea, as AF takes delivery of more 773ERs and as LH takes delivery of more A346s, those airlines may have excess A343s available for lease. Other possibilities: Olympic's future is uncertain, Virgin may dispose of a few early build A343s as their next batch of A346s is delivered. A313s would not be difficult to locate (the condition of the aircraft is another issue).....there are still two or three ex-SQ A313s without new operators for example.
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:38 am

Hi!

According with the portuguese newspaper and the words of Mr. Fernando Pinto, the A330 would come to replace the A310 and from 2011 two models of the A350 would replace both the A330 and the A340. So it's looks quite obvious to me that the Airbus A310 will be the first to go really soon, and I tell this because in the past ILFC - the leasing company that owns the TAP A310-300's - aproached TAP to replace the A310 by the A330-200 and if we look the way TAP always replaced their fleets in the past I firmly believe that they WILL NOT keep the A310 until 2011, TAP never did that!
My point is, Airbus will do everything they can to win this order and TAP is truly happy with Airbus so it's like an announced marriage!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
airbazar
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:11 am

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 37):
According to Mr. Fernando Pinto they are looking into getting 2nd handed planes on the short term, either a A330 or A340, as an adition to the fleet and not replace any of the A310's.

I also got the impression from this interview that the A310 may be too small for their current needs, which goes against what most people seem to think.

Another interesting question/answer in this interview was this:

A mudança para a Boeing tem custos elevados?
Implica custos, mas também pode implicar reduções de custos fortíssimos.

Translation:

Is a change to Boeing, of high cost?
It has costs, but it may also imply heavy cost reduction

It seems to indicate that they think that a change to Boeing may have higher upfront costs (obvious) which could be made up in operating savings over the long run.
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:29 am

Hi!

I agree with the words of Mr. Fernando Pinto about the option on the 787. I consider Mr. Fernando Pinto a great CEO, he did what no one could in the past, and if TAP sees that the 787 can be a better option, certainly they will go for it, but personally Airbus is in a much better position, TAP can't wait until 2011 to get a new airplane to replace the A310.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
boeingbus
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:32 am

Air Bazar - very interesting.

Are you trying to tell us that Boeing has not been excluded from this game like many here seem to believe?

Pinto has basically admitted that Boeing products would offer long term cost savings.

Again, Airbus seems like a 'shoe-in' since they are a heavy Airbus operator. This would be a very significant 'small order' win for Boeing and probably more so than winning LOT. To balance this out Boeing would in essence have to lower those upfront costs as Boeing already proved to TP management of the long term savings.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:08 pm

Hi!

This morning I just did a kind of a study around the contenders for the new medium/long-haul fleet and if in one point Airbus could be the natural winner, in the other way the 787 looks that will fit better in TAP network.
TAP at this moment have 6 Airbus A310-300's and 4 Airbus A340-300's with the following configurations:

A310-300 - 200 passengers
A340-300 - 274 passengers

If we look to the A350 and the 787 configurations we have:

A350-800 - 253 passengers
B. 787-8 - 223 passengers

A350-900 - 300 passengers
B. 787-9 - 259 passengers

So that gives me to this view - the Airbus A350 in both versions will always have bigger capacity over the current fleet ( about 15% more ), that can be good if we think that TAP is growing in these last few years and according with Mr. Fernando Pinto TAP will increase the number of airplanes from 10 to 14. If we look to Boeing 787 the increase capacity would be no more than 2%, so the growth would be achieved with more airplanes and not more seats, that's why I believe I understand Mr. Fernando Pinto and BoeingBus when he says that the option for Boeing could be more costly in the beggining but it would save more money in the end.
So let's those TAP "brains" work in these last 2 months before a decision will come out.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:21 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 33):
TAP would have no trouble finding additional A313s or even A340s on the second hand and leasing market

I believe there are close to zero of both models available out there, so not quite as easy as you seem to think.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
TAP1972
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:36 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 43):
so the growth would be achieved with more airplanes and not more seats, that's why I believe I understand Mr. Fernando Pinto and BoeingBus when he says that the option for Boeing could be more costly in the beggining but it would save more money in the end.

Very interesting point.

But what could be the expected date for deliveries for either the A350 or B787? 2011, 2012??

What would TAP do until there? Keep the 6 A310's and the 4 A340's and a 2nd handed 2/3 A330's/A340's?
 
PM
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:43 pm

Ka (reply 31)

The ex-SR/SN A332s that LH have been flying are all PW aircraft. It may not make or break the deal but TAP are pretty firmly in the GE/CFM camp and whatever engines their A350s/787s eventually have, they sure won't be PW! I suspect that TAP would look for GE A330s if they choose to go that way.
 
WINGS
Topic Author
Posts: 2312
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 43):
A310-300 - 200 passengers
A340-300 - 274 passengers

If we look to the A350 and the 787 configurations we have:

A350-800 - 253 passengers
B. 787-8 - 223 passengers

A350-900 - 300 passengers
B. 787-9 - 259 passengers

Hi CV900, I believe that these figures are for a typical 3x class layout, while Tap uses a 2x class layout, meaning that Tap can afford to increase some space for its passengers.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:42 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 47):
Hi CV900, I believe that these figures are for a typical 3x class layout, while Tap uses a 2x class layout, meaning that Tap can afford to increase some space for its passengers.

Regards,
Wings

Boeing's quoted seat numbers are for typical 3-class arrangements. Airbus are for two...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
CV990
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RE: Tap Portugal Close To Placing A350/B787 Order

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:13 pm

Hi!

Interesting issue the one regarding what TAP would get meanwhile until the final model ( either the A350 or the 787... ). If you look closely to what Mr. Fernando Pinto says Airbus is the only one that gives an intermediate model ( the A330 ), Boeing ( has far has we know ) is not offering any model, but we can also agree that the 787 will come much sooner than the A350, so I presume that TAP will keep 3 more years the A310's and would evolute to the 787-8 from 2008 on and latter the 787-9 to replace the A340 and also increasing first with 2 more airplanes ( either model ) and latter another 2 more.
Looks that the "fight" will be interesting, we'll see!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!

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