KarlB737
Topic Author
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AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:08 am

Courtesy: Dallas Morning News

AirTran president voices interest in Love

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News

Gist of Story:

AirTran Airways Inc. president and chief operating officer Robert Fornaro told investors Tuesday that his carrier would have considerable interest in flying from Dallas Love Field if the Wright amendment were repealed.

For Rest of Story: Registration Required

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s/072605dnbusairtran.10e9ed81.html
 
727LOVER
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:18 am

What?
Aren't they struggling at DFW? Wouldn't DAL be harder? Isn't there a gate issue at DAL also?
Love Trumps Hate
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:21 am

when I read this I said..."Oh God!" This whole Love Field saga has gotten way out of hand and this will make it much worse. My stand is in favor of WN, but I don't know if FL going to DAL will help or hurt either airline.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
airtran737
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:29 am

If the facility fees are lower at Love then why not move? This is a lot like SEA vs. BFI
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
SWALoveField
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:33 am

Love is a great airport. I'd love the addition of another option on another carrier at Love. Come on over AirTran!

www.setlovefree.com

Robb
Dallas, TX
 
717-200
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
This is a lot like SEA vs. BFI

AirTran should consider joining WN at BFI as well. I wonder if Seatac's
high costs have been a factor in FL not flying to a good business and
leisure market that SEA is.
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
N276AASTT
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:06 am

I say "MORE POWER TO FL," if they see green by transferring their services to DAL, I say hell yeah. The DFW Airport Board and AA have made their beds, now they have to lie in it. The first thing I thought of was the WN move at SEA. If it's in their better interests to move, go for it. At the end of the day, the bottom line is $$$. bigthumbsup 
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MAH4546
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:24 am

Quoting N276AASTT (Reply 6):
I say "MORE POWER TO FL," if they see green by transferring their services to DAL, I say hell yeah. The DFW Airport Board and AA have made their beds, now they have to lie in it.

I love how people talk about this like AA and DFW are the greedy ones and that Southwest is the victim. Maybe people need to start reseraching the history of the Wright Ammendement, issues such as the fact that Southwest created their Dallas Love operation under full awareness of that it existed, before trashing everybody else.

I support the Wright Ammendment being abolished, I think it is pointless and unfair to the consumer. However, Southwest isn't that innocent either.
a.
 
wjcandee
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:35 am

Well.........

Non Cynical Bill thinks that Fornaro correctly likes the idea of Love's proximity to downtown Dallas and the wealthy enclaves of Dallas's Park Cities, and maybe more importantly the relative ease with which one can tool around Love from the runway to the jetway, therefore not having to contend with all the crap that slows things down at DFW.

Cynical Bill, however, knows a thing or two that makes him think Non Cynical Bill is too...well...gullible. Cynical Bill knows that DFW has excellent all-weather landing capabilities, and if you aren't flying in alongside a particular airline's complexes, the place seems practically deserted. If you're flying into a non-AA terminal, you taxi right over to your gate, no sweat, and don't have to sit in the horrible Penalty Box unless you can't get a departure clearance for some reason (like, say, weather at ATL). So DFW, centrally-located, convenient-as-long-as-you're-not-flying-AA, and with open, unhindered approaches, ain't so bad a place to fly to. Cynical Bill remembers when once upon a time a man named Robert Crandall, then a chairman of a very big AAirline, publicly said something to the effect of, "Hey, we don't care if they lift the ban at Love. We'll just fly there, too. Matter of fact, we have the complexes all set up and ready to go," suggesting that they'd do as many flights as WN, and maybe more. Methinks that was total BS, but Crandall well knew that if he made it sound like they'd DOUBLE the number of flights at Love, Dallasites would scream bloody murder, which they did. And the repeal-Wright movement went back to sleep.

Fornaro may have that kind of reason to make that statement. Fact is, many, many, many fliers in the Metroplex find DFW a far more convenient place to reach than they do Love. Airtran would be flying to Atlanta and maybe to LA, Vegas, SF, Baltimore, etc. No major advantage to doing that from Love, especially when Southwest would be directly competing with their fares. Wouldn't it be better to keep the thousand-pound gorilla of low-fare airlines locked in it's little hovel across town, whence it can't fly to anywhere that Airtran presently flies from DFW? Opening Love Field opens WN nonstops to anywhere Airtran presently flies from DFW, and anywhere it would want to fly. Hmmmm....would Fornaro prefer (a) to be the most successful low-fare carrier at DFW, to LA, SF, LAS, BWI, ATL, but not be able to get into Love? or (b) a head-to-head competitor to The Airline That LUV Built, on its own turf, where the only competitor is another LOW fare carrier rather than a HIGH-cost major, and from where Southwest can now fly to any Airtran city? He's way too successful a businessman to invite competition he doesn't need. Right now, he's got very fine loads from DFW to the cities he's serving, and folks clamoring for more flights and more routes. So maybe he remembers how succesful Crandall was in saying that he's ready to open up and expand away at Love. But that's Cynical Bill talking.

On the other hand, the guy was ready to go head-to-head with WN at Midway, so maybe he's crazier than I thought.

Best,

Bill

[Edited 2005-07-27 03:37:07]

[Edited 2005-07-27 03:43:14]
 
commavia
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:45 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 8):
Non Cynical Bill thinks that Fornaro correctly likes the idea of Love's proximity to downtown Dallas and the wealthy enclaves of Dallas' Park Cities

If the "wealthy enclaves of Dallas' Park Cities" are the customers that FL, and WN for that matter, are going after with this push to open up Love, then I think they are barking up the wrong tree.

Those enclaves are, in fact, so wealthy, that I highly doubt too many of them will be defecting to FL or WN to fly in coach to BWI. Those customers much prefer their First Class seat on flights to DCA, just to extend the analogy. And, as to the difference in proximity of Love and DFW to downtown -- yes, it is true that Love is about half as far as DFW, I really don't see too many of these people in the "wealthy enclaves of Dallas' Park Cities" minding the extra 15 minutes in their Mercedes or Lexus.

If FL (and, again, WN) are going after middle class flyers in north and south Dallas who are flying predominantly to big cities like LAX or MCO mostly for leisure, and that don't already have AAdvantage accounts, that's one thing. But if FL thinks that they can really generate too much premium traffic from the wealthy in north Dallas, I think they are mistaken. Just my $.02.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:46 am

Pleased AirTran says Wright is WRONG. Suppose they are tired of being #56 in line to take off behind 55 silver birds.

 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
OPNLguy
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
I love how people talk about this like AA and DFW are the greedy ones and that Southwest is the victim.

In the context of what the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 was supposed to accomplish (which it hasn't fully In North Texas due Wright), there are passengers out there who feel -they- are the true victims for having to pay the fare premium that they do....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:52 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11):

In the context of what the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 was supposed to accomplish (which it hasn't fully In North Texas due Wright), there are passengers out there who feel -they- are the true victims for having to pay the fare premium that they do....

The Wright Ammendement is not 100% to blame for this. Any airline is free to fly to DFW and bring lower fares, including Southwest. It's not anybody's fault they don't.

That aside, the Wright Ammendent is unfair, it does limit consumer choice, and it should be appealed, but don't the conception that the Wright Ammendment is "AA's fault" and that DFW has high fares only because of AA is just wrong. DFW has high fares because when other airlines come to DFW and try to steal passengers away, consumers, faced with a new choice, still decide to fly AA and not the new airline. AA is not to blame.
a.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:07 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 8):
a man named Robert Crandall, then a chairman of a very big AAirline, publicly said something to the effect of, "Hey, we don't care if they lift the ban at Love. We'll just fly there, too.

Isn’t that bad for the environment?  footinmouth 

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11):
there are passengers out there who feel -they- are the true victims for having to pay the fare premium that they do....

Not just in North Texas, but those wishing (or needing) to go there.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Those enclaves are, in fact, so wealthy, that I highly doubt too many of them will be defecting to FL or WN to fly in coach to BWI.

People that are wealthy didn’t get that way buy purchasing First Class fares on 3-hour hops. They got there by being smart. They are smart enough to know how to upgrade (FL Business cabin).  Wink

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):

If FL (and, again, WN) are going after middle class flyers in north and south Dallas who are flying predominantly to big cities like LAX or MCO mostly for leisure

Take any of those 60+ flights between DAL and HOU. Do a survey of how many are on business vs. how many are leisure. After all, their slogan “The Company Plane” didn’t mean Three’s Company contrary to popular belief.  Wink

Spend some time among high income movers and shakers (I’m not talking about upper-middle class self important yuppies). You’d be surprised how many actually fly on SWA.

And that was prior to LUV fattening their portfolio.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
FL

Keep in mind, DFW has a large amount of SkyMiles members. SkyMiles members are sour toward DL; not only for dropping the DFW hub operation, but for DL’s devaluation of SkyMiles a few years ago (MQMs, etc).
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:07 am

I wonder if Bill's right about AirTran's motive. It seems to me that DAL would be very unsuited to AirTran's Metroplex operation (or that of just about any other carrier than WN and CO who are there, and AA). AirTran has access to all the gate space they want at DFW's E terminal, and a central location that is better suited to a carrier that needs only one station in the Metroplex.

Unless the costs of operating were significantly less at DAL, it's not clear to me why AirTran would want to fly there. Who wants to fight for a few of those precious 32 gates, whose number is capped by the Master Plan, when WN and AA will easily be able to, and want to, fill the remaining gates by themselves? Who wants to get caught between them in the process of assigning DAL gates?

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
commavia
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 13):
People that are wealthy didn’t get that way buy purchasing First Class fares on 3-hour hops. They got there by being smart. They are smart enough to know how to upgrade (FL Business cabin).

Comparing the FL Business cabin to AA First is not really a fair comparison. On most of the flights in question here (LAX, BWI, etc.), AA offers a meal in F while FL doesn't in C. In addition, AA can take these customers -- upgrade or revenue -- to places FL never could, like 777 Flagship Suites to London and Tokyo, like three daily nonstop flights to Hawaii, like RJs to dozens of cities across the U.S. I agree completely -- the people in the Park Cities are smart with their travel. However, I personally just don't think that they have the same priorities as the average traveler. Such a wealthy community of people are probably more concerned about good schedules (high frequency), First Class, flights around the world, and an FF program that can get you just about anywhere. In that department, AA wins on every count and FL can't compete on anything but fares, which -- I think we can all agree -- are not as much of a concern for these people as they are for the average passenger.

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 13):
You’d be surprised how many actually fly on SWA.

I am not disputing that millions of business travelers and high-end customers per year all fly on WN. Of course they do, as WN has great schedules and awesome customer service. It's a great airline. That being said, however, I think that if you surveyed the "wealthy enclaves of Dallas' Park Cities" as to whether they were AAdvantage members or RapidRewards members, I am guessing that most likely more would choose AA. WN, and FL if it has the opportunity and desire to enter DAL, still can't offer customers dozens of convenient flights per day to business cities like MIA, LGA and DCA, and can't take you to Europe, Hawaii or pretty much anywhere else outside the U.S.
 
stlgph
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:48 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 14):
Unless the costs of operating were significantly less at DAL, it's not clear to me why AirTran would want to fly there. Who wants to fight for a few of those precious 32 gates, whose number is capped by the Master Plan, when WN and AA will easily be able to, and want to, fill the remaining gates by themselves? Who wants to get caught between them in the process of assigning DAL gates?

then perhaps everyone needs to read this the other way of what you wrote. the idea isn't Wright goes away and Love Field becomes Southwest and AA fighting over gates. the idea i see AirTran trying to get the ball rolling is, Wright goes away and let the lawsuits begin over carriers wanting equal opportunity access. for every new airline that wants to come into Love, that's one or two less gates for Southwest. the numbers grow and sooner or later, Southwest isn't going to have too many gates left. the master plan goes away with forced airport expansion, airport costs go up, and then it just becomes more feasible for Southwest to head over to DFW to begin with.


this echo's Boeing7E7's sentiments with the trickle down effect of what would happen to BFI following Alaska's announcement to add 100 flights in response to Southwest's zany-not-a-snowball's-chance-in-hell proposal of building facilities at the BFI complex.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:25 pm

I hope this fuels the war to end the Wright further. It will help these efficent and prosperous airlines that need it. Sooner the better! IMO DAL would also be far better suited for AirTran and its ops, so Robert Fornaro's quoting almost doesn't suprise me.

The gates are clearing with the cuts from Delta and the possiblity of AirTran exiting. Anyone next?
This now creates a great opportunity for AA to expand their DFW super hub so all benefit!  Wink "sarcasm"
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
sccutler
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:51 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Maybe people need to start reseraching the history of the Wright Ammendement, issues such as the fact that Southwest created their Dallas Love operation under full awareness of that it existed, before trashing everybody else.

WN began operations in 1971, the Wright Amendment was created eight years later, in 1979. There was no "full awareness" of legislation which did not then exist.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
commavia
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:02 pm

IMO, if Wright is repealed, I envision:

* WN will immediately load into their schedules about 50 daily flights from DAL to BWI, LAS, LAX, MCO, MDW and PHX, and perhaps a few other big WN stations

* AA will then immediately drop all of its fares from DFW on comporable routes to match WN's pricing structure

* AA will also immediately file suit in federal court trying to get an injunction to block WN's new longhaul flights from DAL until they can be provided with adequate terminal and facility space of equal value to WN's gates at DAL, even if it requires amending the DAL master plan

* The wrangling in court will ensue for a while, and ultimately AA, WN and the City of Dallas will come to some sort of a compromise by which AA will agree to occupy all six gates in the former Legend terminal in return for some sort of facility and/or frequency cap on WN's DAL longhaul flying

* AA will spend 30-60 days getting the Legend terminal back up to speed and then initiate approximately 25-50 daily flights from there to a few cities of its own -- my guesses: DCA, LAX, LGA, MIA and ORD, plus perhaps a few others; as a result, AA's DFW operation will probably lose 25-50 daily departures, all mainline

* Other airlines (my guesses: FL and DL) will try to get space at DAL, only to find that pretty much all the real estate worth claiming has already been taken

* Ultimately, DAL will become an operational and competitive duopoloy, with WN and AA fighting for passengers with low fares, and all the other airlines staying at DAL
 
MAH4546
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Fiel

Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:20 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
WN began operations in 1971, the Wright Amendment was created eight years later, in 1979. There was no "full awareness" of legislation which did not then exist.

I should have used a better choice of words, I meant created as in over time. Why didn't Southwest make a big deal about it in 1979? They basicly agreed to the terms set when it was enacted in 1979. Why didn't they follow everybody else to DFW? Why did they allow themselves to build-up Love all well knowing the restrictions. In 1989 Herb Kelleher was even quoted as saying
"Operationally, it's extremely difficult, but I pledged we wouldn't seek to overturn it."
a.
 
stlgph
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:28 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
* Other airlines (my guesses: FL and DL) will try to get space at DAL, only to find that pretty much all the real estate worth claiming has already been taken

reply #16
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
travatl
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Fiel

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:32 pm

As mentioned a coupla times above, it's clearly just a ploy to KEEP the W.A. in place. Just gives more fuel for DFW to point and say "LOOK, we'll lose promising new LCC competition here!!!. AirTran WANTS a fence around Southwest at DAL whilst they build up DFW. If that means being sneaky about they way they go about it, so be it.....to openly support the W.A. would only show that they don't want any LCC competition on the longer flights either....

Travis
 
N276AASTT
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
Any airline is free to fly to DFW and bring lower fares, including Southwest. It's not anybody's fault they don't.

How are they supposed to do that with DFW's operating costs being higher than DAL's. Bigger airport, longer taxi times = slower turn around rates. Exactly the opposite of what WN is known for.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Why didn't they follow everybody else to DFW? Why did they allow themselves to build-up Love all well knowing the restrictions.

Sure they could've moved like everybody else, then we wouldn't be having this discussion now. But, then again, AA could've stayed at DAL and stuck it out like WN did. Who knows where we would be now if they did.
Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
 
nosedive
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
AA will spend 30-60 days getting the Legend terminal back up to speed and then initiate approximately 25-50 daily flights from there to a few cities of its own -- my guesses: DCA, LAX, LGA, MIA and ORD, plus perhaps a few others; as a result, AA's DFW operation will probably lose 25-50 daily departures, all mainline

Aren't the jetbridges at the Legend terminal only designed to accomidate DC-9s?? In theory an MD-80 should work, yes?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Why didn't they follow everybody else to DFW?

Since they were goverened by the CAB, they didn't "have to." Great being an intra-state airline only in the 70's, huh  Wink

Quoting STLGph (Reply 16):
for every new airline that wants to come into Love, that's one or two less gates for Southwest.

WN can only have a fixed amount of gates at DAL...

Quoting STLGph (Reply 16):
airport costs go up, and then it just becomes more feasible for Southwest to head over to DFW to begin with.

I highly doubt that costs can raise that much in only a few yrs.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
Ultimately, DAL will become an operational and competitive duopoloy, with WN and AA fighting for passengers with low fares, and all the other airlines staying at DAL

I'm assuming you meant to say "other airlines staying at DFW" Personally, I don't think AA will purge DAL to match WN pound for pound ASAP, too much expansion...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
Why didn't Southwest make a big deal about it in 1979?

They weren't as big  Wink
 
stlgph
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:17 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
WN can only have a fixed amount of gates at DAL...

exactly. but they will even then be squeezed out by the other carriers wanting in. see Boeing7E7's discussion about Alaska Air's announcement regarding going into BFI.

part of the part squeeze would be such announcements (like AirTran's) about pre-emptive move by other carriers. not enough gates to fullfill the requests of all the carriers again = complicated litigation and action. if Love Field can only have so much capacity, then this action would be forcing the government to raise the operating costs of Love Field to match that of DFW.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
I highly doubt that costs can raise that much in only a few yrs.

then you must not understand the interdependence of politics or economics.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
I'm assuming you meant to say "other airlines staying at DFW" Personally, I don't think AA will purge DAL to match WN pound for pound ASAP, too much expansion...

absolutely they would.

and to logistically pull this off, they would have to pull from operations where AA currently has large shops set up...ORD, LAX, STL, LGA, RDU, MIA, etc. it's a great thing to dangle out there to get the attention of a few Congressmen/women when it's time to vote to repeal the Wright Amendment.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
They weren't as big

that's absolutely no excuse.

Quoting N276AASTT (Reply 23):
How are they supposed to do that with DFW's operating costs being higher than DAL's. Bigger airport, longer taxi times = slower turn around rates. Exactly the opposite of what WN is known for.

well then that's just a darn shame, now isn't it?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
commavia
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting N276AASTT (Reply 23):
Bigger airport, longer taxi times = slower turn around rates.

DFW is much bigger, yes, but I doubt the taxi times are that much longer than DAL -- maybe a few minutes if you land on an outer runway. As someone else said, pretty much every airline besides hometown hub carrier AA has virtually no taxi or gatehold/penalty box issues at DFW as they have their own gates and because DFW has almost no congestion or delays.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
Aren't the jetbridges at the Legend terminal only designed to accomidate DC-9s?? In theory an MD-80 should work, yes?

I don't know for sure, but I would think so.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
I'm assuming you meant to say "other airlines staying at DFW" Personally, I don't think AA will purge DAL to match WN pound for pound ASAP, too much expansion...

I did mean DFW, I apologize. I also agree -- AA will never compete fully with WN on price. AA will probably get to the level of charging 5-10% more for Y seats out of DAL, on average, than WN on comporable routings, and probably 10-20% more for F seats out of DAL, on average, because of the added convenience of flying from DAL. In the end, if Wright is repealed, DAL will probably turn in to a small spoke station with links to AA's other major U.S. hubs (ORD, MIA) and a few huge non-hub O&D markets (LAX, LGA).
 
MAH4546
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 25):
and to logistically pull this off, they would have to pull from operations where AA currently has large shops set up...ORD, LAX, STL, LGA, RDU, MIA, etc.

DAL growth will logically come at the expense of DFW.
a.
 
aaway
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
* The wrangling in court will ensue for a while, and ultimately AA, WN and the City of Dallas will come to some sort of a compromise by which AA will agree to occupy all six gates in the former Legend terminal...

The former Legend terminal is a non-starter. Though incorporated into the DAL Masterplan as one of the facilities available for occupancy, the fact of the matter is the building is inadequate for (potential) post-Wright operations.

When constructed, space on both the landside (ticket counter/baggage claim) and airside (gate holdrooms) was minimized to reflect the 56 pax cap for long haul ops. IIRC, the maximum occupancy at any given time is 400 people (56 persons for each gate and approx 50 for for other areas).

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
* AA will also immediately file suit in federal court trying to get an injunction to block WN's new longhaul flights from DAL until they can be provided with adequate terminal and facility space of equal value to WN's gates at DAL, even if it requires amending the DAL master plan

The more likely scenario. Frankly I expect AA to request what it had been forced to relinquish - 14 gates (the former Braniff / East concourse). The current DAL masterplan does have an option of building a six gate extension, roughly along the footprint of the former East concourse, should the former Legend terminal no longer be used for air carrier operations.

I submit a couple of links for perusal:
"If in the future the Lemmon Avenue terminal for air carrier gates, the City will allow up to six additional gates to be placed at the main terminal."
http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/CompetitionPlan.pdf

"Six of the total gates there today were designed especially for defunct Legend Airlines and would require substantial reworking to be usable by another airline because the passenger waiting areas were built for 56-seat planes in mind, not the 100-plus-seat planes that would be in play if the Wright amendment were lifted."
http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/bus/...ories/072105dnbuslove.30351e1.html

[Edited 2005-07-27 17:43:52]
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
jdaniel001
Posts: 619
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
Aren't the jetbridges at the Legend terminal only designed to accomidate DC-9s?? In theory an MD-80 should work, yes?

I don't know for sure, but I would think so.

The Legend Terminal will handle all narrowbody equipment except for buses and the 757.

If everyone thinks that by moving to DAL, they will get reduced taxi times.....think again.
We Are UNITED!
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 25):
and to logistically pull this off, they would have to pull from operations where AA currently has large shops set up...ORD, LAX, STL, LGA, RDU, MIA, etc.

But there's also places like BNA, MDW-granted Chicago, LAS, PHX, OAK, BWI.... and as has already been noted:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
DAL growth will logically come at the expense of DFW.

Looking at AA's history, esp the BNA and RDU hubs, AA doesn't like to canbialize their hubs....

Quoting STLGph (Reply 25):
then you must not understand the interdependence of politics or economics.

Oh please enlighten me, John Smith or are you Mr. John Maynard Keynes  sarcastic 
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
I love how people talk about this like AA and DFW are the greedy ones and that Southwest is the victim. Maybe people need to start reseraching the history of the Wright Ammendement, issues such as the fact that Southwest created their Dallas Love operation under full awareness of that it existed, before trashing everybody else.

I don't know where you are reading your history, but it's wrong. Southwest existed before the Wright Admendment and in fact, it existed before DFW existed. Might I suggest that you go pick up a copy of "Hard Landing" or another historical work?

In fact, the only reason the W.A exists in the first place is because AA wanted it to kill off Southwest permanently. However, the introduction of de-regulation allowed Southwest other hubs, where they once again proved their model was efficient against the legacies.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
AA will also immediately file suit in federal court trying to get an injunction to block WN's new longhaul flights from DAL until they can be provided with adequate terminal and facility space of equal value to WN's gates at DAL, even if it requires amending the DAL master plan

The entire point of de-regulation (with the W.A as one of the few hold outs) is that Government does not get involved in decisions like this. Also, it's not like the 70s where AA almost put Southwest out of business via litigation. Southwest has some money and some staying power. They no longer have to bend when AA blows.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):

I should have used a better choice of words, I meant created as in over time. Why didn't Southwest make a big deal about it in 1979? They basically agreed to the terms set when it was enacted in 1979. Why didn't they follow everybody else to DFW? Why did they allow themselves to build-up Love all well knowing the restrictions. In 1989 Herb Kelleher was even quoted as saying
"Operationally, it's extremely difficult, but I pledged we wouldn't seek to overturn it."

Southwest did make a big deal about it. Once again, see Hard Landing. Wright adm let them keep flying however restricted out of DAL. At this point the rest of the nation was becoming deregulated and Southwest could have died on the vine fighting the W.A or they could expand to other cities and challenge other carriers.

Remember that Wright was the speaker of the house at that point. Southwest was struggling under constant lawsuit after lawsuit from AA. If you were a betting man, putting any money on Southwest's survival when you had the largest of the legacies after you, as well as the corrupt speaker of the United States House of representatives anything that left you flying at the end of the day was a good thing.
 
stlgph
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:39 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 27):
DAL growth will logically come at the expense of DFW.

they would only fly against Southwest or other routes where necessary. if they pull equipment from other cities, if there's no need to compete, they'll just route them through DFW boosting DFW traffic levels.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
If FL (and, again, WN) are going after middle class flyers in north and south Dallas who are flying predominantly to big cities like LAX or MCO mostly for leisure, and that don't already have AAdvantage accounts, that's one thing. But if FL thinks that they can really generate too much premium traffic from the wealthy in north Dallas, I think they are mistaken. Just my $.02.

No. they are going after the business commuter from DAL-HOU, MSY,SAT, AUS who find DFW inefficient for a short flight and AA's walkup too costly for a day trip. WN's top DAL flyers are as likely to be AA flyers as well.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
commavia
Posts: 9791
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Aaway (Reply 28):
The former Legend terminal is a non-starter. Though incorporated into the DAL Masterplan as one of the facilities available for occupancy, the fact of the matter is the building is inadequate for (potential) post-Wright operations.

When constructed, space on both the landside (ticket counter/baggage claim) and airside (gate holdrooms) was minimized to reflect the 56 pax cap for long haul ops. IIRC, the maximum occupancy at any given time is 400 people (56 persons for each gate and approx 50 for for other areas).

While I agree that the Legend terminal is less than ideal for the size of operations AA could potentially operate out of DAL in a post-Wright world, they really would have no choice. The Legend terminal is beautiful, relatively new, and wide open. It has sat empty for five years. The only alternative would be to use the three crappy, useless, ramp-level boarding doors AA has left on what is left of the East Concourse. That, IMO, is even more a non-starter.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 31):
The entire point of de-regulation (with the W.A as one of the few hold outs) is that Government does not get involved in decisions like this.

Agreed. The government stepped in when the City of Dallas failed to live up to its 1968 promise not to allow flights out of DAL after DFW opened. Wright was the compromise because WN would not budge, and neither would AA. In an ideal world, the government would not get involved, and believe me -- I would love nothing more than for the federal government to have no say in this and let it go back to the City of Dallas to decide, but now that can't happen as once the government gets hold of something, they never let go.
 
aaway
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
The only alternative would be to use the three crappy, useless, ramp-level boarding doors AA has left on what is left of the East Concourse. That, IMO, is even more a non-starter.

No. AA paid to refurb that portion of the East Concourse. The three gates you're referring to are/were jetway equipped. AFAIK, the improvements are still there, though I haven't been to Love since 2003.

What could possibly prevent AA from using these gates is the fact that AA never received a waiver from the City of Dallas to actually use those gates. The city had had a long standing restriction forbidding the use of the East Concourse as an airline terminal.

However, I suspect that restriction would come under scrutiny should Wright be abolished.

[Edited 2005-07-27 18:00:49]
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 31):
Remember that Wright was the speaker of the house at that point.

  
I meant to say this on a past W/S A thread, but Jim Wright was not the Speaker of the House at the time W.A. was enacted.

Rep. Thomas P. (Tip) O'Neill (D-MA) was Speaker of the House when the original W.A. was passed in 1979. Jim Wright didn't become Speaker until 1987. See below-website.

http://politicalgraveyard.com/offices/congr1.html#AF3145y1950

From website:
Speakers of the House, 1950-2003 (may be Incomplete!)
Sam Rayburn 1949-53 Joseph W. Martin, Jr. 1953-55 Sam Rayburn 1955-61 John W. McCormack 1963-71 Carl Albert 1971-77 Thomas P. O'Neill, Jr. 1977-87 James C. Wright, Jr. 1987-89 Thomas S. Foley 1989-95 Newt Gingrich 1995-99 J. Dennis Hastert 1999-


[Edited 2005-07-27 18:03:24]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:04 am

Yep. Sorry. I think he was majority leader (or whip at that point). My bad. Anyway you look at it, he was wicked powerful.
 
aaway
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 31):
In fact, the only reason the W.A exists in the first place is because AA wanted it to kill off Southwest permanently


"Southwest was struggling under constant lawsuit after lawsuit from AA."

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 31):
Also, it's not like the 70s where AA almost put Southwest out of business via litigation.

Quite a revisionist take on things. Here, have a look at this:
http://www.jurisearch.com/newroot/ca...series=F.2d&citationno=546+F.2d+84

[Edited 2005-07-27 18:11:16]
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
* AA will also immediately file suit in federal court trying to get an injunction to block WN's new longhaul flights from DAL until they can be provided with adequate terminal and facility space of equal value to WN's gates at DAL, even if it requires amending the DAL master plan

On what basis? Once the Wright Amendment disappears, there would be no impediment for WN to fly wherever it wants.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:03 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 24):
Since they were goverened by the CAB, they didn't "have to." Great being an intra-state airline only in the 70's

For starters, the FAA assumed the role of CAB, so the FAA is still entrusted with the Authority CAB had. It' snot as iff the function disappeared.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 11):
In the context of what the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 was supposed to accomplish (which it hasn't fully In North Texas due Wright), there are passengers out there who feel -they- are the true victims for having to pay the fare premium that they do....



Maybe that's why Airline Deregulation occured in 1978 and Regulation of Love Field began in 1979.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
WN began operations in 1971, the Wright Amendment was created eight years later, in 1979. There was no "full awareness" of legislation which did not then exist.

Not to mention several lawsuits between '71 and '79 over the issue.

Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
On what basis?

Equal access. DAL is a Federally Obligated airport. The airport is required to ensure access to facilities. Be it through adding gates, or taking of gates from other carriers.

Quoting Pope (Reply 39):
Once the Wright Amendment disappears, there would be no impediment for WN to fly wherever it wants.

Or for anyone else to demand gate access to also provide service in kind.

Of course it also sets a whole new precidence of the Airlines being able to sue to create additional commercial service facilities outside the primary facility of a region and bypass planned expansion if they decide the cost of moving is cheaper than staying... BFI anyone? An upcropping of business for my field, however I beleive it's irresponsible and wasteful so I kindly decline to favor the removal of the Wright Amendment.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 40):
Maybe that's why Airline Deregulation occured in 1978 and Regulation of Love Field began in 1979.

Maybe it’s because SWA commenced service to New Orleans in 1979 and American got scared so their friend (a Congressman) got involved and tacked on a protectionist provision to other legislation.

 spin 
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
stlgph
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 41):
Maybe it’s because SWA commenced service to New Orleans in 1979 and American got scared so their friend (a Congressman) got involved and tacked on a protectionist provision to other legislation.

it has nothing to do with American getting "scared." it's called "stop the bullshit."

American was already playing by the rules and was at DFW just like everybody else should have been.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 41):
Maybe it’s because SWA commenced service to New Orleans in 1979 and American got scared so their friend (a Congressman) got involved and tacked on a protectionist provision to other legislation.

Maybe it was to end years of litigation. Which was the real reason.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:48 am

I think ATA should buck the trend and go for say Austin or San Antonio instead!  Smile
 
airtran737
Posts: 3222
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RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:51 am

I think that we should leave DAL the Hell alone. I don't think that Fornaro realizes what will happen if the WA is repealed. WN will dump flights into every market that the serve. AA will fight WN at DAL, but WN would wipe the floor with FL if we tried to go after a piece of the pie.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
stlgph
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:04 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 45):
I think that we should leave DAL the Hell alone. I don't think that Fornaro realizes what will happen if the WA is repealed.

reply #16
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 42):
it has nothing to do with American getting "scared." it's called "stop the bullshit."

Ironically, it's what -started- the BS.....  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Indy
Posts: 3957
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:11 am

Is the interest in DFW for FL a geographic one, one of market size, or both? Or (a less likely scenario I think) that they are wanting to stir up trouble with WN?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
stlgph
Posts: 9056
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: AirTran President Voices Interest In Love Field

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:11 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 47):
Ironically, it's what -started- the BS.....

no, the BS began when Southwest wanted to play cry baby and wouldn't go play in the big pig pen like everyone else.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport