Pe@rson
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FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:39 pm

FR currently has two routes from ORK: to STN (four-times-daily) and LPL (once-daily). Do you envisage further growth from Ireland's second-largest city sometime in the future, either as a base or otherwise? If yes, which destinations do you think will be served? In the UK, I imagine that PIK, EMA and, quite possibly, BRS, at least, will be served. Perhaps LTN, too. In mainland Europe, BVA, GRO and CRL seem most likely, as do, but to a lesser extent, HHN, NRN, LBC, EIN, CIA, PSA and BGY. Other 'sun' destinations are quite possible, too, like REU, MJV, AGP* and FAO*.

* Currently, these are only served from DUB.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
7LBAC111
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:42 pm

EI are opening more services from ORK at the moment aren't they? Perhaps FR will see how EI do on the route - if that's even their style.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
cornish
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:43 pm

I would have thought MJV, AGP and FAO would be certain contenders for any further expansion out of ORK.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:46 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 2):
I would have thought MJV, AGP and FAO would be certain contenders for any further expansion out of ORK.

In the UK, I certainly see PIK, EMA and, perhaps, BRS.

In mainland Europe, I would put 100 EUR on GRO, plus 50 EUR on BVA and CRL.

And then, if I have sufficient cash, a lesser amount on the rest, but make no mistake - I do think the others are, in time, likely.

[Edited 2005-07-27 12:47:17]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
cornish
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 3):
In mainland Europe, I would put 100 EUR on GRO

sorry - should have added GRO too. Basically any sunshine destination in the Iberian Peninsula would be a near-certainty. I could see BRS happening too. BVA, HHN and maybe CIA
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:52 pm

You foresee BRS but neither PIK (not merely for Glasgow, but most of Scotland) nor EMA (for Birmingham, Nottingham, Coventry, etc., areas)?.

[Edited 2005-07-27 12:54:36]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
philb
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:00 pm

Where on earth is all this speculation coming from?

Cork is not a base - Dublin and Shannon, both around 2 and a half hours travel time away, are.

Shannon has seen a massive expansion by FR this year, possibly more than the province of Munster (which includes both SNN and ORK) can sustain year round. Kerry, also in Munster, is served daily from Hahn and from Stansted twice a day in summer and once in winter.

The population of the region is around 1.1 million (last census).

You are all either daydreaming or just filling time by posting.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:07 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
Cork is not a base - Dublin and Shannon, both around 2 and a half hours travel time away, are.

If you donned your specs and read a sentence in my opening thread, namely that 'growth from Ireland's second-largest city sometime in the future, either as a base or otherwise,' then you'd quickly establish that I was after other people's opinions as to potential destinations.

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
Cork is not a base - Dublin and Shannon, both around 2 and a half hours travel time away, are.

Really? Well I never.  

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
Shannon has seen a massive expansion by FR this year

That is somewhat inconsequencial and might not affect the opportunities for growth from ORK, especially to the UK and key 'sun' destinations. If it did, why would LPL, for instance, be served from both ORK and SNN?

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
You are all either daydreaming or just filling time by posting.

Not quite. It is called surveying the opportunities.

God forbid the discussion of potential routes in an aviation forum. Whatever next?   Wink

Anyway, I am off now (it's my day off), so I'll return either later or tomorrow.

Cheers!

[Edited 2005-07-27 13:10:24]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
7LBAC111
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:10 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
You are all either daydreaming or just filling time by posting.

PhilB - are you really so highly strung? You really jump on the bandwagon every time. Same in the Aer Lingus to Oz thread.

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 7):
If you donned your specs and read a sentence in my opening thread



Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 7):
Really? Well I never.

LMAO.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
philb
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:35 pm

Answering posts factually is not jumping on the bandwagon, it's what the forum is for.

Perhaps your position as an amateur psychologist allows you to spout nonsense from the same orifice that generates your laughter.

The original post WWII aviation enthusiasts came from the ATC and the ROC. We were taught the necessity of being factual. We were also taught to evaluate and, if we wanted to speculate, do it on the basis of real KNOWLEDGE and proven facts.

In those days, and right up until the 1970s, there was a certain respect and cultivation of enthusiasts by the industry.

Whilst security has lessened the opportunities for enthusiasts to pursue the hobby, the greatest problem the industry has with the hobby is the arrant rubbish that many forums generate coupled with the need by some people to log every tail number regardless of how this is done..

The pursuit of knowledge is buried by the need to express "what I think xyz should/will do/order" and the need to have some hot news.

Many professionals around the world now rate enthusiasts as "anoraks". This makes it much harder for those who are genuinely interested in what really goes on, and for Societies that cater for them to be accepted.

There were a good number of people here with real knowledge, in senior positions in the industry who, over the years have left precisely because people aren't really interested in hearing reality but just want somewhere to express themselves.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:55 pm

Aw.

Perhaps you misread my profile then Phil. See, I'm not actually an amateur psychologist, I work in Corporate Travel. Not glamourous I know, but its my job and I do it as best I can.

I don't know jack shit about engines and airframes and what button does what on the upper left side of the mid galley on a VS 747. Nor do I care. But I do have an (arguably) educated opinion on developments on the commercial side of the industry - in particular who may go where, when and how often. I like to and will continue post on topics such as that.

I try not to launch into a poster with a pile of drivel which ultimately shows that I clearly haven't read the actual post, as you have done a couple of times this past few days. Nor do I resort to personal insults - unless it's Orion737 - but he's just plain funny.

So if it's all the same to you Philip I will continue to spout nonsense from the same orifice that generates ... laughter and you will have the option in future of firstly reading it correctly, and if you so wish, commenting on it.

TTFN

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
cornish
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:30 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 10):
So if it's all the same to you Philip I will continue to spout nonsense from the same orifice

....that managed to foresee AA announcing NCL-JFK a couple of days ago, prior to today's announcement.

I don't see what the problem here is Philb. There has been plenty of meaningful discussions on here before now regarding potential routes (particularly Ryanair) that Pe@rson has bought up and there has been some sensible intellectual and knowledgeable discussions on the merits and business case of such routes.

To me (who does work in aviation and has worked on route planning and forecasting for major airlines and airports), I don't have the slightest problem with discussing the potential of such things with some who is young and keen to learn about the industry, and enthusiastic about it.

Everyone has to start somewhere and to pick on Pe@rson for trying to learn about how an airline works is a bit sad - yes you've had a long career and its over now. Some people are just starting theirs....

Yes there is no certainity of new routes of ORK, but what Pe@rson was trying to understand is where people might realistically see new routes opened to - based either on demand or by looking at FR's history of developing their network out of certain airports.

As someone who lives in Ireland, perhaps you could have contributed sensibly to the discussion and given some Irish insight of what might work from ORK instead of just sit and criticise.

[Edited 2005-07-27 14:55:24]
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 11):
young and keen to learn about the industry, and enthusiastic about it.

Oi, you! :-P I'm not that young, just like you're not that old.  Silly

Quoting Cornish (Reply 11):
Yes there is no certainity of new routes of ORK

Or, indeed, from anywhere. Life is, alas, largely speculation (even science is really just rational speculation following research - not hard facts. This is why they're called theories. The same goes for a lot of things, if you think about it). I wonder whether PhilB speculates about which sport team will win whatever game. Oh, but wait: that's speculation.  Silly
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
greenjet
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
FR currently has two routes from ORK: to STN (four-times-daily) and LPL (once-daily). Do you envisage further growth from Ireland's second-largest city

Liverpool is Ireland's second largest city  Smile
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:01 pm

Quoting Greenjet (Reply 13):
Liverpool is Ireland's second largest city

LOL.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
CV580Freak
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:06 pm

Touch of the old PMT ?  rotfl 
One day you are the pigeon, the next the statue ...
 
philb
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:19 pm

7LBAC111

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 10):
I try not to launch into a poster with a pile of drivel which ultimately shows that I clearly haven't read the actual post, as you have done a couple of times this past few days

Please be specific

Cornish

My original post was totally self explanatory. It explains precisely and concisely why the potential doesn't exist in the foreseeable future.

I answered the question that was posed. "Sometime" is an indefinite time period. It can only be answered in terms of current knowledge and an extrapolation of future trends. In your job you should know that.

The question then goes on to list "most likely" and "quite possible" destinations.

As far as anyone outside of FR's planning department knows, all of this is speculative nonsense and there is nothing in FR's current public position to show that they are even considering expansion at ORK.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:25 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
It explains precisely and concisely why the potential doesn't exist in the foreseeable future.

And what are your facts to support your argument? Don't forget that spectulation - you are speculating, for you're speculating that the potential does not exist - can result, in your view, in "nonsense." Unless you have definitive information from a reputable source, such as an investigation by FR into the expansion potential of ORK, then your view is pure speculation - just like mine. And your view, just like mine, will remain mere speculation until you can disclose your reputable source.

[Edited 2005-07-27 15:27:55]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
philb
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:53 pm

Rubbish. What I stated were the facts as known at present.

The population of the whole of Munster is 1.1 million. There is inbound potential but a good traffic base is rarely predicated on one way traffic.

FR has stated publicly that it is making Shannon its base for expansion. That is partly a political response to an argument over developments at Dublin. The new services from SNN are beginning to build reasonable loads but it is peak season at present.

Look at the development of services from Cork and Shannon. Many airlines have failed to develop and consolidate at both airports, in fact there is a story doing the rounds at present that Thomson and FlyBe will suspend SNN services at least for the winter. No confirmation on that but EUJet has gone - it couldn't even replace EIN on the Dublin Shannon sector which was to have been its first Irish service. Magic Jet failed at Cork and BA/BMI Baby aren't exactly rushing to build on their presence at either airport.

As far as sun destinations go the tourist market in Munster is unsophisticated - not my words but those of the travel trade. The number of IT flights from both airports is limited and comparatively few in Munster are prepared to go on holiday under their own steam but go on the packages to Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Croatia and the Canaries.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:01 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 18):
What I stated were the facts as known at present.

So, can I see the various authorities on which you base your argument? You know, like reports from aviation analysts or otherwise which states that ORK has no or little potential for growth in the foreseeable future? We can all say things or interpret things based on insufficiently weighty evidence...

Anyway, this discussion is now pointless, so please don't bother to reply.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
7LBAC111
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
7LBAC111

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 10):
I try not to launch into a poster with a pile of drivel which ultimately shows that I clearly haven't read the actual post, as you have done a couple of times this past few days

Please be specific

Delighted.

In this thread you said this:

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
Cork is not a base - Dublin and Shannon, both around 2 and a half hours travel time away, are.

when Pe@rson clearly said this:

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Do you envisage further growth from Ireland's second-largest city sometime in the future, either as a base or otherwise?

A question. Not a statement.

In another thread (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2238399/) you said this -
Why, for pity's sake would Aer Lingus buy B777s? when in fact you were replying to a post which actually said Ok well look at it this way.

EI announce tomorrow that they are taking a mix of 772ER and 773ER types on as replacement for their early 330s.


which was a clearly hypotheical statement to explain someones point.

To which you replied
7LBAC111, I know it was. But why not be realistic and use a hypothesis based on the A350?


Either way the topic was based on a long haul aircraft - be it 777 A350 or IL96.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like Pe@rson says - end of discussion now. You managed to sap the enthusiasm from this thread - like you did on the EI to Oz thread.

Enjoy your retirement.

7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
philb
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RE: FR Development At ORK?

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:19 am

It doesn't take too much comprehension or business sense to realise that Ryanair cannot maintain 3 bases within a small radius in a country of just around 4 million people with two in a province of just 1.1 million. If a base doesn't work at SNN it has less chance of working at ORK which is runway restricted, on top of a hill and prone to closure due to low cloud - as it was for periods on many days in April, May and June. If SNN does work it will be because it is drawing incoming traffic to the Cork - Kerry tourism region and taking outgoing traffic from the same area, plus Counties Clare, Limerick and the Tipperaries.

Mr O'Leary looks for very cheap facilities at airports. Cork is building a new terminal and hasn't the cash to offer the discounts to attract him.

As to the hypothetical question, the thread was dealing with a specific statement that EIN was looking at serving Australia. The side discussion on equipment hypothesised about a type not in EIN's current business plan, so why raise the possibility of BUYING an aircraft from a manufacturer not currently under consideration?

I don't see any examples of drivel in that which you quote.