boysteve
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Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:54 am

At Midday MAN goes into 'single runway operation' for upto 4 hours, queues inevitably build up for departing aircraft. Usually once an outbound aircraft has taken off the next incoming is cleared to land. Today however was different, operating margins were much tighter, and incoming aircraft were given the instruction to "land behind the departing aircraft", even though the departing aircraft was still rolling at the time. Is this a new procedure or new instruction? Is it common elsewhere?
It lead to 2 incidents today, both around 1pm. A departing BA citiexpress regional flight pulled onto runway 06L to take off and developed a fault, an incoming BA LHR shuttle had to abort landing on short final, this may not be too unusual but at the time the incoming flight was less than 30 seconds from touchdown. It went round again and landed some 15 minutes later.
The second incident involved BMI's Washington flight. Whilst it was rolling a BMI Embraer was 'cleared to land behind it'. Although the Washington bound 757 left the ground around 10 seconds before the Embraer touched down, the Embraer captain was far from happy. He reported ground turbulence on the runway and suggested that he was given clearance to land too close behind a departing aircraft.
I often here on my radio that 2 departing aircraft have to be separated by 1 minute, or 2 minutes. Is there a standard timing procedure between departing and arriving aircraft using the same runway?
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:17 am

Its funny you should mention this as I was at MAN today flying to LHR and thought to myself a couple of times they were getting a bit close. I saw the BD/FI 757 leave but I wasn't paying attention to the Embraer. What I did notice that was strange is that at around 11am ish with 2 runway ops in "06" mode an Air Atlanta 747 departed on r/w 24L straight after another aircraft had landed on 06R. I thought they were switchin the runways at first but then operations resumed on 06. Was there a reason for this? Just curious.
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trekster
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:20 am

WOW, wish i was there today then

Looks like it would have caused some good shots for queing
Where does the time go???
 
goinv
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:57 pm

The second incident involved BMI's Washington flight. Whilst it was rolling a BMI Embraer was 'cleared to land behind it'. Although the Washington bound 757 left the ground around 10 seconds before the Embraer touched down, the Embraer captain was far from happy. He reported ground turbulence on the runway and suggested that he was given clearance to land too close behind a departing aircraft.

ATC - "Midland Embraer Jet - the runway here at Manchester is a little busy - but you're cleared to land on the M56"
BMI - "OK - cleared to land on the M56"
afterwards to BMI captain said he was none too happy about landing between a caravan and a HGV  irked 

Surely the captain has the final say on whether he lands or not? If he was daft enough to follow so closely behind a departing aircraft he shouldn't be the captain of an aircraft. In my opinion the Captain (and pilot) gets paid to think - not follow ATC instructions like sheep.
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boysteve
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:44 pm

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 1):
What I did notice that was strange is that at around 11am ish with 2 runway ops in "06" mode an Air Atlanta 747 departed on r/w 24L straight after another aircraft had landed on 06R

I have seen this sort of thing before , but don't know the reason as it can cause queues to build up. At certain times on Saturday lunchtime the wind was "calm", so I guess it didn't matter which way the aircraft was pointing for take-off/landing
 
trident2e
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:24 pm

Quoting Boysteve (Thread starter):
Embraer captain was far from happy.

Well, like all pilots, if he feels it was a safety risk he is free to file a report and have the incident investigated by the AAIB.
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:13 pm

Quoting Boysteve (Thread starter):
Is there a standard timing procedure between departing and arriving aircraft using the same runway?

Arrival - Departure
Once the arrival has gone past the departure hold ATC can give clearance to enter runway and line up. Once the arrival has its tail cleared of the runway ATC can clear the departure for TO. What "clearing the runway" means is very subjective. Usually visually judged. But the pilot on the departure has the final say whether it's safe to start rolling.

Departure - Arrival
Clearnce to land given once the departure is off the ground. Conditional clearance can be given. Limit is only 1 aircraft on tarmac at anyone time so it can appear very tight. Again the pilot has the final judgement whether it's safe to land.

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 1):
What I did notice that was strange is that at around 11am ish with 2 runway ops in "06" mode an Air Atlanta 747 departed on r/w 24L straight after another aircraft had landed on 06R.

I dont see a problem here. ATC would have left a big enough gap on 06R ARR runway to accommodate this. Departures climb so fast and the SID banks left or right immediately they'll be out of the way of the arrivals in no time. As to why it wants to use 24L to depart I wouldnt know. Easing the queue on the other runway? Better/shorter route maybe? The 747 may should have been quite light to TO in a tailwind or there was little wind. But if you ask ATC will try to accommodate.

Quoting Goinv (Reply 3):
Surely the captain has the final say on whether he lands or not?

Yes the captain has the responsibility for safety. When ATC CLEARS an aircraft to land it doesnt mean it HAS to land. It means ATC thinks it's safe to land. The pilot himself decides whether it's actually so.

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 5):
Embraer captain was far from happy.

If he thought EGCC was tight try flying into EGLL... But to be fair if you are a weasel you wouldnt want to be behind a B752 (ARR/ARR or DEP/ARR)...
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philb
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:59 pm

Manchester has been operating the "Cleared to land behind" procedure for many years. It is a fully CAA approved procedure which is outlined in AIP Gen 3-3-6, para 6.4 (if anyone can find it on the Web). Similar procedures apply at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted.

In simple terms:

In the UK, the phrase "Cleared to land Runway ##" is only given when the runway is clear.

An aircraft may be permitted to land before a preceding aircraft has cleared the runway provided:

a) The runway is long enough to provide safe separation and there is no evidence that braking might be adversely affected;

b) It is during daylight hours;

c) The landing aircraft will be able to see the preceding aircraft continuously and clearly;

d) The pilot of the following aircraft is warned, using the phrase "Land after the (Type) Runway ##".

Following a "Land after" clearance, the pilot is responsible for maintaining safe separation.
 
Londoncenter
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:53 pm

RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:44 am

To my knowledge, "land after" can be used at any aerodrome in the uk providing the conditions Philb listed above are met. "Land after the departing" is only available for use at specified aerodromes, again namely the ones Philb listed.

And Phil, welcome to my respected users list for saying what I was about to write myself, saved me some time there!
 
philb
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RE: Very Tight Margins On Single-runway MAN

Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:01 am

Thanks Londocenter!

To clarify further, "land after" is in use at many airfields down to the smallest GA fields but if I recall there has to be:

a turn off, or off runway holding area allowing adequate clearance between aircraft, at the opposite end of the runway to the arrival threshold

no need to backtrack to access the turn off or hold area

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