JoKeR
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JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:19 am

The ongoing diplomatic spat between Serbia and FYR of Macedonia over the latter’s arrest of the chief Serbian Orthodox Bishop in Skopje has now resulted in the immediate repossession of both Boeing 737-300’s leased to the Macedonian national carrier – MAT.

MAT has been defaulting on the ACMI payments for these two aircraft for many months now, and until few days ago the Serbian Government - as JAT’s owner, turned a blind eye. Now though, Mr. Velimir Ilic - the Minister for Capital Investments has instructed JAT to bring the two airliners back home; his decision directly resulting from the arrest and imprisonment last week of the Serbian Bishop. This move will badly affect Macedonian Airline’s schedules, maybe even resulting in its demise due to its massive debts and poor credit rating.

Recalling of the ambassadors is the next step hinted, hope that sanity will prevail!


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Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:51 am

It is something very unusual. First of all, decision to reposes those planes was not made by the JAT menagement but by one of the all-mighty ministers.

The relationship between JAT and MAT was shady for many years now and there's no doubt that things needed to be cleared up in that respect, but why now? Somehow, I simply don't see what the case of Bishop in Macedonia has anything to do with JAT or MAT. There were other ways to solve that problem. But, again, there were so many moves by Ministers Ilic that I couldn't understand (to put it mildly) so why not adding another one to that list. But, to be honest, there is another person that is involved in this crisis, although everybody is silent about it. Bogoljub Karic. For days his TV station was campaigning against the arrest and he is also very close to Minister Ilic, so...

Quoting JoKeR (Thread starter):
Recalling of the ambassadors is the next step hinted, hope that sanity will prevail!

I agree with you. Sanity is badly needed in this situation.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:03 am

It has just been announced that Macedonian Airline - MAT, obviously backed by its Government, has refused to give JAT its planes back, despite owing more than US$ 7 million in lease payments.

The Serbian Government has now threatened more action, to be announced shortly.

Now my question is how is it possible to turn something as beautiful and liberalizing as flying into a bitter and imprisoning factor of a diplomatic row?  vomit 
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JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:44 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 1):
Bogoljub Karic. For days his TV station was campaigning against the arrest and he is also very close to Minister Ilic, so...

I think it would be far more helpful if they pettitoned for the immediate resignation of Mr Ilic who treats JAT as if it his own company. What happened in Macedonia is very sad but you do not go resolving a diplomatic incident through means as we witnessed today. Our politicians need a lecture in diplomacy and diplomatic etiquette!  embarrassed 
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Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 2):
It has just been announced that Macedonian Airline - MAT, obviously backed by its Government, has refused to give JAT its planes back, despite owing more than US$ 7 million in lease payments.

In that case, JAT should have reposesed those planes a long time ago.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 3):
I think it would be far more helpful if they pettitoned for the immediate resignation of Mr Ilic who treats JAT as if it his own company.



Quoting JoKeR (Reply 3):
What happened in Macedonia is very sad but you do not go resolving a diplomatic incident through means as we witnessed today.

A absolutely agree with you.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 2):
Now my question is how is it possible to turn something as beautiful and liberalizing as flying into a bitter and imprisoning factor of a diplomatic row?

Well, that is becoming weird. Are you reading my mind?  scared  It is a question I often ask myself. In fact, every time I go to the airport or pass by JAT office, but answer seems logical to me. If you have a situation where flying is seen as nothing more than a mean to get a goal (in this case power, money, political and social status) than one cannot expect anything else. What we see today (not only this incident but the situation around JAT in general) is just a result of years and decades of such way of thinking, behaving and acting. And it makes me really sad.  Sad
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wassch71
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:00 am

A bit off-topic, but I just checked by curiosity MAT's website. They apparently have daily flights to Zurich. I also recently read in a recent article on Nis Airport (great article btw) that JAT occasionally offers direct flights from there to Zurich. Is there such a big market in Switzerland from southern Serbia and Macedonia to justify these flights; or they're just used for connections?
Regards
Wassim.
MEA...Like No Other
 
Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting Wassch71 (Reply 5):
Is there such a big market in Switzerland from southern Serbia and Macedonia to justify these flights; or they're just used for connections?

Yes, there is a healthy demand for such flights. A huge number of people went to Switzerland, Germany and France to work there in 1960s and 1970s. Every summer they usually return home for vacation and sometimes, some of their relatives pay them a visit to those countries. Load factors are high on flights from Nis to Zurich. Last year, when I paid a visit to the Nis airport, there were two flights leaving to Zurich (Montenegro F-100 and JAT 733) and they were both full. Interestingly, they left Nis within an hour.
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travel
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:53 am

Is Macedonian Airlines in financial trouble?
 
JoKeR
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:07 pm

Quoting Travel (Reply 7):
Is Macedonian Airlines in financial trouble?

 yes 
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UN_B732
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:11 pm

Some days 4 ZRH-BEG flights operate (1 LX, 1 YM, 2 JU)
It's somewhat odd that their using an airline to penalize Macedonia for their behavior in the arrest, but they really should repossess the planes if MAT owes JAT 7 million.. However, I don't understand why they didn't reposess the aircraft earlier.
-mr. X
What now?
 
sobelair
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:35 pm

Hi

I have always been wandering how come JAT never initiated some kind of stronger ties with MAT, at least a codeshare agreement, or some kind of regional alliance.
It would have been a logical step, following the lease deal with 737 being supplied by JAT (and the logo MAT somehow reminds me a lot on JAT).

I talked to so many Macedonian, and lot of them use Belgrade as a hub for transferring when flying to Europe. And MAT has currently codeshare with AUA and SWISS, if I am not mistaken. And few other West European destinations other than Zurich, Vienna, Rome. So Belgrade is ideal for transit. And JAT and MAT would have had a virtual monopoly. Well, it seems like now chances for this are vanishing rapidly.

Too bad. Because I liked so much the idea JAT initiated few years ago about regional alliance. I always suspected that JAT had MAT on their mind, together with Bulgaria Air (none of those three is a member of existing alliance,) and together they could eventually attract Adria Airways on some way at least.

Even the idea JAT had to establish regional Inter link air, with ATR 72s was a good one, never happened though. And I had this crazy thought JAT will help MAT lease also a couple of ATR 72s and start the same thing out of Skopje.

Wishful thinking...hehe. ;o)
 
JU101
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:03 am

What I cannot comprehend is the stupidity of Serbian politicians for directing cash-strapped JAT to lease aircraft to MAT without receiving adequate payments to begin with! JAT still operates DC-9s on scheduled domestic flights; they could have saved lots of money by operating the same routes on more comfortable and fuel efficient 737s. Moreover, they could have used these two additional planes for charters instead of using the highly inefficient Boeing 727s. Clearly lots of money has been wasted without any justification.

I support the return to Belgrade, however the timing is all wrong. Such a return should have been established on the first or second month of defaulted payments years ago. MAT are bound for bankruptcy without significant government intervention.
 
Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting JU101 (Reply 11):
JAT still operates DC-9s on scheduled domestic flights; they could have saved lots of money by operating the same routes on more comfortable and fuel efficient 737s. Moreover, they could have used these two additional planes for charters instead of using the highly inefficient Boeing 727s. Clearly lots of money has been wasted without any justification.

I think JAT doesn't fly DC-9s. Some are leased out and can be seen in Dubai. The use of 727s is justified because it is still the biggest plane (170 seats) and 733 might be insufficient on those full flights.

Quoting JU101 (Reply 11):
I support the return to Belgrade, however the timing is all wrong

I agree with you. It's not the problem why JAT reposesed those planes, but why now. I simply hate mixing aviation with politics.
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JU101
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:43 pm

Regarding the charters, they could have accommodated their needs with either more flights with the 733 or properly lease out the aircraft and supplement them with additional 734s. I withouth a doubt could do a much better job in running JAT than these politicians any day!
 
UN_B732
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:45 am

I didn't think JAT had DC9s either, but the JatAirways timetable claims all BEG-TGD flying is on DC-9s, and one of the daily BEG-TIV flights. I thought they were running ATRs/737s to TGD, but i'm not sure.
-Mr. X
What now?
 
Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:38 am

First - hello to everyone, I'm new here as a member. I've been following this forum for years but now I can write too  Big grin

Knowing that Jat Airways is an airline whit extremely poor management who themselves do not know why are they there and what are they doing, this is not a surprise.
They lease out 733s to MAT and "aero" of Nigeria and they lease in 733 and 734 (ok, 734 I can understand). I really don't get it  Confused
Anyway this move is highly unprofessional and, hopefully, someone will buy crippled Jat Airways and things like this (and far worse we don't know about) will be avoided.
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BEG2IAH
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:46 am

Stjuard,

Welcome to A.net!

I just heard that MAT wants to "pay off" its debt to JAT by the "debt" Serbian Air Traffic Control "owes" to Macedonia. If Macedonian airspace was controlled by Serbian agency why would they give up that money? And aren't these two separate firms?

I really get mad when I read anything that has a mixture of politics and aviation in it. It always sucks big time.

BEG2IAH
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
JU101
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:46 am

Welcome Stjuard.

I am still under the assumption that the JAT DC-9 is still in operation on domestic flights, has anyone heard anything different?

Any news from Air Maxi by the way?
 
Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:59 am

Thanx guys!

DC-9 is not in scheduled traffic. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen one since few months ago. I think it's flying from Dubai to Afghanistan etc.

As for Air Maxi - they are beginning flights in June 2005. And in July 2005...  banghead  Who knows when will they start. No airplanes for them came to Belgrade. And it's a venture between "Delta holding" and Aviogenex. Well, I can tell you that Aviogenex is not turning of the engines on their Boeing 727s, they fly all the time. As AVIOGENEX  duck 
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Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
First - hello to everyone, I'm new here as a member.

Welcome  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
Knowing that Jat Airways is an airline whit extremely poor management who themselves do not know why are they there and what are they doing, this is not a surprise.

I agree.

Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
hopefully, someone will buy crippled Jat Airways

I doubt. First, JAT would need to make huge changes, otherwise none of the possible buyers will be interested. JAT is so messed-up now that anyone sane enough wouldn't invest a single cent in it.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 16):
really get mad when I read anything that has a mixture of politics and aviation in it. It always sucks big time.

Aren't we all getting mad?  pessimist 
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Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 16):
I just heard that MAT wants to "pay off" its debt to JAT by the "debt" Serbian Air Traffic Control "owes" to Macedonia. If Macedonian airspace was controlled by Serbian agency why would they give up that money? And aren't these two separate firms?

That's right BEG2IAH! Macedonia did not control their airspace so it's really stupid. And Jat Airways and Air Traffic Control have NO connection (except while flying  Big grin )
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Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:14 am

Thanx Aleksandar!  wave 

You are right about Jat AIrways needing to make HUGE changes! That's why I said hopefully!  pray 
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BEG2IAH
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:33 am

Hi guys.

Just read in Glas Javnosti that Delta Holding gave up on making Air Maxi a reality, because Aviogenex did not provide a plane. What do these guys smoke?

BEG2IAH
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 22):
Just read in Glas Javnosti that Delta Holding gave up on making Air Maxi a reality, because Aviogenex did not provide a plane. What do these guys smoke?

I knew this would happen, Welcome to Serbia, the country of opportunities
 liar 
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Aleksandar
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 22):
Just read in Glas Javnosti that Delta Holding gave up on making Air Maxi a reality

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

First, it was Aero Nais, then it's Air Maxi. As time goes by, I more an more believe in one sarcastic saying GDE NESTAJE RAZUM, TU NASTAJE SRBIJA  sarcastic 

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 22):
What do these guys smoke?

Don't ask, my friend. Just don't ask  shhh 
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BEG2IAH
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:11 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 24):
First, it was Aero Nais, then it's Air Maxi.

When naming LCC companies to be, they shouldn't use any word that means 'air'.  Big grin It leads to an automatic failure.  down 

BEG2IAH
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:10 pm

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 25):
When naming LCC companies to be, they shouldn't use any word that means 'air'. It leads to an automatic failure.

hahaha  rotfl 

But those "Aero" prefixes are lame. It always reminds me of SSSR  irked 
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UN_B732
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:26 pm

Jaoo.. I thought Air Maxi had a good idea behind it.
Notice that www.airmaxi.com now just says Air Maxi and has the generic picture of a plane.. No more "Flying is not expensive anymore!" "coming soon" or articles in the press.
I thought they had the ex-UA 733s lined up?
What now?
 
Stjuard
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:20 pm

Wow, they removed everything! Just that drawing... Well, it was a very good idea which failed as all good ideas here in Serbia  banghead 

Well, who knows what's cooking in Aviogenex  stirthepot 
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VHTAE
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:30 pm

Hi all, it's nice to be back. Can I ask why the Serbian bishop was arrested? As for the 737s, if MAT was not paying the lease JAT should of repossessed them ages ago.

I understand MAT have 3 737-300s in which 2 are leased from JAT (Z3-AAA and Z3-ARF). The other one is Z3-AAF, does anybody know the owner of this aircraft?

With the fall of previous Macedonian carriers like META, Palair Macedonian and Aviompex it would not suprise me if MAT is next. I hear of another Macedonian carrier called Air Vardar planning to start-up.

VH-TAE.
 
travel
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:48 pm

Air Vardar has been set up, however it's license was cancelled because Air Vardar had big debts.

MAT-Macedonian Airlines has so far been the longest operating carrier based in Macedonia.

Correct me if I am wrong but what Macedonia really needs is a government owned, national/flag carrier, I would assume MAT would be the logical choice, only because many private owned carriers based in Macedonia collapsed.

If the Macedonian government intervened and took control of Macedonian Airlines, I wonder whether that would make it more financial viable?

I find it very strange that so many carriers were set up in Macedonia and they have all been manned very badly.

One strong airline with a new fleet is what Macedonia needs.
 
VHTAE
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:06 pm

Thanks for that information 'Travel'. I just jumped on their website and read under 'Fly With Us' that in 2000 the Government recognised MAT as being the national flag carrier for a 10 year period.

VH-TAE.
 
travel
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:30 pm

Hi VHTAE,

The government has appointed MAT as the national flag carrier however something still isnt right though.

I have an article on Airliner World back in 2001 regarding airlines in Macedonia, apparently Macedonian Airlines were going to return their leased B733's to JAT and they were going to purchase A320's and lease ATR's from JAT. Also it states that MAT are looking at expanding to destinations where Avioimpex abondand, and Paris, London were just some of the destinations in MAT's radar but until this day none of this has taken place.

Also bare in mind MAT have also lease another B733 from US Airways. This aircraft is currently operating with MAT.

Macedonian aviation has always been quiet complicated. It is about time the government did something about it.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:06 am

I saw Z3-AAA still operating in ZRH yesterday on a MAT flight.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
flycro
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:20 am

Did BA make money from there short lived route to Skopje? They must think theres money to make in the region now that they will fly to Tirana next yaer.
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting Flycro (Reply 34):

And money there is, the BEG flights are doing very well. I wonder though how they plan to make Varna a hit?

TIA should be quite successfull for them
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flycro
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:50 am

They'll be hopeing for bucket and spade pax at Varna, also many Brits are buying second homes in Bulgaria which will help the route. SPU and DBV flights are pretty near full this summer, BA wanting £500 for a SPU return mid August.

Could Skopje make a reappearance on the BA map or even Sarajevo get a look in?
 
travel
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:24 pm

BA suspended services from LGW/SKP in 2001 while the civil unrest between Macedonians and Albanians was taking place in Macedonia.

I read somewhere that BA found that their services to Macedonia were not profitable. But who knows airlines say one thing one day and do something else the next day, so who knows BA may decide to reinstate a London/Skopje service on day.

Macedonia has lost serveral airlines over the years such as Aeroflot MOW/SKP, Lufthansa MUC/SKP, Olympic ATH/SKP, Aegean Airlines ATH/SKP, Hemus Air SOF/SKP but then again Skopje airport has new customers such as Malev, Czech Airlines, Alitalia and (Cirrus Airlines - which Lufthansa code shares with.)

On a different note does anyone know why Ohrid airport is so underserviced?

Going back to this Macedonian Airlines business, as a so called national airline they do not cover Macedonia very well, but then again MAT does not currently have it's own fleet..Strange for a national airline.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:58 am

Z3-AAA was again operating into ZRH as was Z3-AAF. However, it seems as if Z3-ARF has gone since they had to reroute flights today, one flight operated ZRH-FCO-SKP and a Ohrid-ZRH flight was operated with a Hemus Air Tu-154M.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
Sokol
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:02 pm

From Friday MAT Macedonian Airlines will transport its passengers with MD-82 "Bullgaria Air Charter".

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/agenci...1=vest&ST_AS1=1&ST_LS1=-1&ST_max=1

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/agenci...1=vest&ST_AS1=1&ST_LS1=-1&ST_max=1
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: JAT To Reposes Its 733s From Macedonian

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:33 pm

So did they just keep Z3-ARF in Belgrade after maintenance with the other aircraft (Z3-AAA) not affected by these measures?
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place