fedexexpress
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Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:17 am

Does any one thing IND has to much pax service to the airport. If so what is some of the routes that are over served? And do you think there are routes that need to be added, or ramped up by more service. I am just curious what others think. Thanks Eric
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:19 am

If it is overserved, then the market will adjust to it. I don't really think IND is overserved, but it definitley isn't underserved, and has much better service for a city of its size than most other US cities do. It is well served, and, outside of a flight to the Bay Area, is not lacking in non-stop destinations.
a.
 
fedexexpress
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
and has much better service for a city of its size than most other US cities do. It is well served, and, outside of a flight to the Bay Area, is not lacking in non-stop destinations.

i agree
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
LambertMan
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:29 am

Really hard to say one way or another. As previously mentioned, the Bay Area doesn't have any filghts. Perhaps NW will start a seasonal flight to SFO next summer, I certainly think that it would work. Besides that, there really isn't a whole lot of uncovered ground. It even has service to a few destinations that are a bit surprising (i.e. AUS, BDL, JAX).

Oh, BTW, CUN is returning despite its low LF's that were posted on jetphotos.
 
mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:26 am

I just worked a 5-day trip all with IND layovers doing turns to LAS and DEN back and forth everyday and the planes were totally full- No open seats, no non-revs onboard, etc. I would say in this case, IND is definitely NOT over-served!!

mtnman
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
norcal
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
It is well served, and, outside of a flight to the Bay Area, is not lacking in non-stop destinations.

Anybody have plans to launch a non-stop flight IND-OAK?
 
PUDFW
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:09 am

IND is really the airport for the whole state, so it does just get Indianapolis people.

So I don’t think it’s a surprise that at least the loads on the flights are pretty good.

I drive 50 minutes from West Lafayette to use fly out of there and I know a lot of other people do as well. The regional airports in Indiana really arent served that well so its either fly out of IND or Chicago or Cincinnati and to some degree Ft Wayne (which doesn’t have that many options and is expensive).

I might add that is not a bad drive and its pretty convenient. Thank god they raised the speed limit to 70!
 
fedexexpress
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:42 am

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 4):
I just worked a 5-day trip all with IND layovers doing turns to LAS and DEN back and forth everyday and the planes were totally full- No open seats, no non-revs onboard, etc. I would say in this case, IND is definitely NOT over-served!!

mtnman

So what routes should you IND add then??
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
SRT75
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:45 am

Whether or not planes are full, I think history demonstrates that IND is not profitable.

US used to use IND as a "mini-hub" (important enough that a terminal map was in the on-board magazine). That died in the mid to late 1990s.

NW has converted IND into a mini-hub, apparently without much success. As it has done the same thing with MKE there is a theory that NW is simply over-protective of its traditional base - the upper midwest.

ATA (based in Indianapolis) has cut back IND service over the years, instead focusing on MDW.

I also used to fly IND pretty regulalry (go Purdue!), and my empirical evidence was that loads were always pretty good.

Is it true that IND is not profitable?? If so, why?
 
fedexexpress
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:53 am

how is it not profitable??? explain your reasons???????
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
US used to use IND as a "mini-hub" (important enough that a terminal map was in the on-board magazine). That died in the mid to late 1990s.

From what I understand US had gone mini-hub/focus city wild for a period of time. Too many. Something had to be cut back. I don't believe IND was alone in getting the axe.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
ATA (based in Indianapolis) has cut back IND service over the years, instead focusing on MDW.

God only knows what ATA was doing. Personally I think they made too many wild decisions in a very short period of time as a result of poor finances. I think they reacted when they started building the IND hub and I think they were reacting when they changed their mind only a few months later.

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
s it true that IND is not profitable?? If so, why?

The airport authority itself is doing pretty well. Don't know if I can say the same for the airlines. Where a lack of competition drives up prices and hurts the consumer I think INDs excess of competition drives down prices and hurts the airlines. There is quite a large selection for an airport this size. But I think the problem here is a reflection of a system wide problem of too many airlines.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 10):
From what I understand US had gone mini-hub/focus city wild for a period of time. Too many. Something had to be cut back. I don't believe IND was alone in getting the axe.

I believe you are correct, I recall US operating a "Mini-Hub" or focus city in Dayton in the late 80's/early 90's. That might have been a reminant of the Piedmont acquisition.

Getting back to IND, I would think if an airline would start service on the IND-OAK route it would be WN or TZ. NW or UA might consider a daily flight to SFO if demand is there or to connect to their Aisan and Hawaii flights.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:23 am

On an individual route basis... IND-PHL has to be overserved since NW added the CRJ's. Why they thought that would be profitable VS US' mainline/RJ mix to their main hub was beyond me. Alot of other fish for NW to fry from IND other than PHL.
 
stirling
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:57 am

Sure the IND flights are full; with the competition present currently, and the fares that result from such activity, one should really expect nothing less.
The airlines are hoping to win by volume. But as it might appear as having license to print money, the actual opposite is true.

Yields vanish into thin air.

Indy has always been this way.
Back in the 90's, when US hubbed/focused on IND, round-trip fares from SFO were less than $200. Sometimes, as low as $158.
Now that is just stupid.
No one can make a profit flying damn near cross the country and back for that price. In this case, ATA, or American Trans Air as was the case then set a very LOW fare precedent; which everyone who served IND followed. So even now as ATA fades away, (only serving LAX, LAS, MCO, RSW) the pattern of behavior has been continued by those that remain, Southwest, Frontier, Independence, airTran, etc..

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
Whether or not planes are full, I think history demonstrates that IND is not profitable.

A plane full of people that paid clearance rack fares will do that.

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 9):
how is it not profitable??? explain your reasons???????

As discussed, full airplanes do not guarantee profitability. When nearly every destination served from IND is sold at a discount, someone is going to feel pain....especially those guys with high costs having to match the fares of airlines with operating costs half theirs. (example; US vs. WN)

Quoting Mtnmanmakalu (Reply 4):
just worked a 5-day trip all with IND layovers doing turns to LAS and DEN back and forth everyday and the planes were totally full- No open seats, no non-revs onboard, etc. I would say in this case, IND is definitely NOT over-served

LAS and DEN, competitive markets....low fares.....low yields, if any yield at all.

But the upside to all this is; I've never heard anyone who lives within two-hours of Indianapolis complain of high airfares....inconsistent airline service, but who cares? Right? As long as Joe Q Public saves a buck....
Delete this User
 
LambertMan
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 7):
So what routes should you IND add then??

The routes that are left over from the ones currently not served offer very slim pickings. Maybe SAT or SFO, but there is not much beyond those two that I can think of. Chances are IND will stay fairly stable as far as passenger growth and service additions.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:48 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 14):
The routes that are left over from the ones currently not served offer very slim pickings. Maybe SAT or SFO, but there is not much beyond those two that I can think of. Chances are IND will stay fairly stable as far as passenger growth and service additions.

That is pretty accurate. You might be able to add SFO and SAN but thats about it. Perhaps PDX. But that would pretty much complete the cities able to be served nonstop in a strictly O/D environment. As the years go by and the number of PAX served increases there will be more and more cities creaping up into the nonstop picture.

Lets face it... there just isn't going to be much demand for nonstop service from Indianapolis, IN to Fargo, ND  Smile
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
LambertMan
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
NW has converted IND into a mini-hub, apparently without much success. As it has done the same thing with MKE there is a theory that NW is simply over-protective of its traditional base - the upper midwest.

Chances are that you don't know for certain how well IND is doing for NW. It's kind of a hard situation to analyze, but here is what I have gathered:

The loads haven't been overwhelming on the majority of the routes, but that says very little. Some of the business heavy routes to PHL, RDU, and LGA are seemingly the best performers. I will agree however, the leisure based routes need to basically be selling out to make money at the prices they are charging. Routes like Cancun, which is topping out at nearly 90 passengers on the A320 are probably losing NW quite a bit, but stands to return. So really, its hard to say how NW is doing in IND. Time will tell.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:35 pm

How is there enough O&D on IND-PHL to support US' virtual armada to the hub everyday, AND NW's CRJ's?? The fares on that route have gotten down to bloodbath status a few times too... I've seen it as low as $159. There's no way NW can break even with a CRJ-440 on that route and that fare.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:45 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 15):
You might be able to add SFO and SAN but thats about it. Perhaps PDX.

There is no "perhaps PDX". I don't see why people think NW would start this route. They don't even bother flying MEM-PDX and DTW-PDX was not year-round until this past winter, and even then it only operated 5x weekly. IND-PDX is not going to happen.

SFO, however, makes perfect sense. A daily A319, year-round. I would not be surprised. And a summer service to San Diego could also be a winner, although, again, they don't fly MEM-SAN (they have seasonally in the past), I don't see them doing IND-SAN before that.

[Edited 2005-08-02 06:47:19]
a.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:42 pm

Southwest's presence keeps fares low at IND. People drive from 3 states to IND to get the low fares.

Overserved? It's a busy place. I don't think so.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:32 pm

Also IND is close to large universities that have a lot of international students and faculty travelling (in addition to Indianapolis-based Lilly people). A lot of the traffic out of IND is for each airline hub (ORD, EWR, IAH, DTW, IAD, etc.) then dispatching pax to international destinations.

I have spent 2 years at IUB as a French student and there was always a lot of people on those flights leaving to or arriving from international destinations, connecting in the hubs and ending their journey at IND.

That brings pax but not revenue for the domestic flights.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:57 pm

Quoting GLA MD11 (Reply 20):
Also IND is close to large universities that have a lot of international students and faculty travelling (in addition to Indianapolis-based Lilly people). A lot of the traffic out of IND is for each airline hub (ORD, EWR, IAH, DTW, IAD, etc.) then dispatching pax to international destinations.

I have spent 2 years at IUB as a French student and there was always a lot of people on those flights leaving to or arriving from international destinations, connecting in the hubs and ending their journey at IND.

I have noticed that when I travel to Europe. That is one of the biggest cases I made as well for IND eventually getting transatlantic service. I just don't think its likely until 2008 - 2010. Possible but not likely.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
formerhongky
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:53 am

Quote:
I have noticed that when I travel to Europe. That is one of the biggest cases I made as well for IND eventually getting transatlantic service. I just don't think its likely until 2008 - 2010. Possible but not likely.

Perhaps a NW 787 to AMS in the future may happen?
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:57 am

Quoting Formerhongky (Reply 22):
Perhaps a NW 787 to AMS in the future may happen?

If I were running an airline I'm not sure I'd use that kind of equipment on what would be an experimental route. I would use something a bit older and with reduced seating capacity. A332 perhaps? Would there be any point to a 757-200? From what I've been told cargo is a big deal. Not sure how much you can get in a 757. May need a widebody to get the kind of space you need to make the route profitable. That may be where the A332 comes in.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
slider
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 8):
I think history demonstrates that IND is not profitable.

From my experience, the yield is very profitable in IND, which is one of the reasons it DOES have so much service relative to its size. PUDFW made the point that IND's catchment area is much larger geographically than many other medium/large cities, and it has a solid convention and business market.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:07 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 24):
and it has a solid convention and business market

The convention business here is getting set for a major expansion. A new stadium is set to start construction this month and upon completion in 2008 the old stadium will be torn down and immediate construction will start on a significant expansion of the current convention center. It will be a really big deal.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Tornado82
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting GLA MD11 (Reply 20):


I have spent 2 years at IUB as a French student and there was always a lot of people on those flights leaving to or arriving from international destinations, connecting in the hubs and ending their journey at IND.



Quoting Indy (Reply 21):
I have noticed that when I travel to Europe. That is one of the biggest cases I made as well for IND eventually getting transatlantic service. I just don't think its likely until 2008 - 2010. Possible but not likely.

None of that traffic is going enough to one specific European city (or even just Europe for that matter) to make T/A from IND worth while. I don't know personally about you guys, but as an American I'd rather go to an American hub, then fly directly to my destination abroad than go from my American home base to a Euro hub and do my connecting there. It's alot easier to connect on home soil, therefore if you go IND-ORD/DTW/EWR/JFK/ATL or *gasp* PHL you can get to most major foreign markets with only that one domestic connection. Nothing would suck more than taking your transatlantic flight into a hub over there, being late on arrival there, and then hitting a long line at customs and whatnot which causes you to miss your connection when dealing with airlines which may or may not be extremely hospitable to "foreigners."
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:55 am

The worst part of the entire travel experience is dealing with international arrivals at places like PHL, ATL, ORD and DTW. You don't have the problems in places like AMS and FRA that you have here. I'd rather clear customs here and just go home.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
fedexexpress
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:41 am

I agree Indy, you cant convence me that we don't have enough demand for a transatlantic flight somewhere in Europe for a connection overseas instead of me connecting in ORD. Hopefully when the new terminal is built we will get that much needed service!
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 28):
, you cant convence me that we don't have enough demand for a transatlantic flight somewhere in Europe for a connection overseas instead of me connecting in ORD.

There are plenty of US cities with larger markets to Europe than IND that do not have non-stop service to Europe - Fort Lauderdale, New Orleans, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Hartford, San Diego - for various reasons. The most common, and this is why Indianapolis will probably not see a flight to Europe for a long time - is proximity to major European travel hubs.
a.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
There are plenty of US cities with larger markets to Europe than IND that do not have non-stop service to Europe - Fort Lauderdale, New Orleans, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Hartford, San Diego - for various reasons. The most common, and this is why Indianapolis will probably not see a flight to Europe for a long time - is proximity to major European travel hubs.

Its the arrivals nightmare in places like ORD, ATL and DTW that will make nonstop travel to the cities you listed more appealing in the next 10 years. As international demand grows the more traditional gateways will become less and less appealing to travelers. Just my opinion.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ATAIndy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:11 am

I recently read in the Star that passengers come from Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, and Illinois because of the cheaper fares at IND. So who is the winner here? The passengers, the airlines?
Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-MIA, MIA-IND
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:13 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 30):

Its the arrivals nightmare in places like ORD, ATL and DTW that will make nonstop travel to the cities you listed more appealing in the next 10 years. As international demand grows the more traditional gateways will become less and less appealing to travelers.

Very true, but the airlines don't care. Unless you are looking at a drastic problem of handling passengers at immigration, which is unlikely, they couldn't care less.

[Edited 2005-08-03 00:15:08]
a.
 
fedexexpress
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting ATAIndy (Reply 31):
I recently read in the Star that passengers come from Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, and Illinois because of the cheaper fares at IND. So who is the winner here? The passengers, the airlines?

I think the City/ Airport / pax all win. IND pulls from 5 states total, but yet we dont have enough demand for INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!!!!!! LOL amazing. I think it is just a crock of shit to be honest. If a airline was willing to start it at a affordable fare that flight would be full I am willing to bet money on it. Eric
"Its not what your country can do for you its what you can do for your country" JFK
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 33):
If a airline was willing to start it at a affordable fare that flight would be full I am willing to bet money on it.

Yeah, so? An airline wouldn't make money filling a plane on bargain fares.
a.
 
ATAIndy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 33):
yet we dont have enough demand for INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!!!!!! LOL amazing. I think it is just a crock of shit to be honest

I totally agree  thumbsup  We should get AMS service on NW or something. I think our chances will be better once we get the new terminal though.
Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-MIA, MIA-IND
 
SRT75
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:30 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 30):
As international demand grows the more traditional gateways will become less and less appealing to travelers. Just my opinion.

1) I've never flown it, but do pax have a better experience flying AA NRT-SJC than say NRT-LAX or SFO? That is a small market with a somewhat unusual international route.

2) Does AA make money on SJC-NRT? If not, what evidence is there that any international route would make money out of IND?

Quoting ATAIndy (Reply 35):
We should get AMS service on NW or something

Probably would be KLM. NW mainly flies their own equipment to AMS out of the hubs, and relies on KLM equipment and code-share for other US gateways.

Also, be careful of what you wish for.

* A small customs facility could result in IND lines that are 10 times worse than a major hub with a huge customs facility.

* When you fly IND-DTW-AMS (for example) you get the benefit of checking in with a DC-9 sized group of people. That means a maximum of 125 people waiting in line to check their bags. IND-AMS would probably be on an A333 or D-10-30, meaning you are waiting in line with a potential 273-298 people.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:06 am

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 36):

* When you fly IND-DTW-AMS (for example) you get the benefit of checking in with a DC-9 sized group of people. That means a maximum of 125 people waiting in line to check their bags. IND-AMS would probably be on an A333 or D-10-30, meaning you are waiting in line with a potential 273-298 people.

This is actually an excellent point. Something that I have overlooked when it comes to providing the service. Considering the mess the old IND is right now it would make such a flight a nightmare. Keep in mind though that TZ for a while provided service from IND to LAS on an all coach L1011. You are talking a pretty big crowd as well and I don't think they had as much or more ticket counter space than NW has now.

The problem I have with places like ATL, ORD, DTW, etc is that you arrive on a jet with about 300 people. Unfortunately you are not the only get arriving. When I arrived in DTW this past march there were I believe 3 other jets that arrived around the same time. You are talking about flooding the facility with over 1000 people. It basically is a rat race. ORD and ATL can best be described as a sea of humanity. The new IND airport when it opens in 3 years should have a customs facility well suited for the couple daily international flights that it would receive (at best for the next 20 years).

I've never flown international in to IND so I have no idea what the people experience when they come back on NW from CUN or when the charter flights would come in from Europe. Has anyone here had to experience that?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
LambertMan
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:35 am

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 36):
Quoting Indy (Reply 30):
2) Does AA make money on SJC-NRT? If not, what evidence is there that any international route would make money out of IND?

AA used to do much better on SJC-NRT that it does today, but its still hanging around. The reason why that flight is around in the first place is SJC's ability to fill the front of the plane with business execs commuting back and forth to NRT.

Don't place your bets on IND-AMS anytime soon. NW tried to do PHL-AMS 5 or 6 years ago, and it was a mediocre performer at best. Philadelphia is nearly 3 times the size of Indianapolis, with that being said AMS simply will not happen.

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 33):
we dont have enough demand for INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!!!!!!

There may be enough demand, but that really doesn't matter. Is there enough demand for MSY-FRA? Sure, there is more than enough, but that doesn't matter or else we'd see LH birds in New Orleans. It's all about the yields and filling the front of the plane, hence we have routes like RDU-LGW and SJC-NRT. Those markets don't fill the plane up, but its all full up front which is what airlines so desparately covet.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting PUDFW (Reply 6):
IND is really the airport for the whole state, so it does just get Indianapolis people.

I went to Valparaiso, and you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to drive to IND from there, I-65 sucks. And let's not forget that Lake and Porter Counties are quite a decent sized chunk of the population of your whole state. In Porter the gameplan was to go to SBN if fares were within reason, if not MDW, and lastly ORD. LaPorte, and St Joe Counties were likewise I'm sure, also large counties population-wise for the state of Indiana standards, and let's not forget Allen County which has FWA and could probably get to LAN as quickly as IND. Now you're right on one count, LAF does use IND, but it's not that long of a drive at all so of course you would use IND since your airport lost its service, my g/f is also at Purdue and I'm through that airport at least twice a month.

Quoting Fedexexpress (Reply 33):

I think the City/ Airport / pax all win. IND pulls from 5 states total, but yet we dont have enough demand for INTERNATIONAL SERVICE!!!!!! LOL amazing. I think it is just a crock of shit to be honest. If a airline was willing to start it at a affordable fare that flight would be full I am willing to bet money on it. Eric

5?!? I'll bite. IN, IL (the 10 people who live in that I-70 corridor but it's a small percentage), OH (people too cheap for CVG/DAY, but with LCC's at DAY I would imagine that's shrinking... and they could get to CMH just as easy.. I-70 west of Dayton is HORRIBLE!), and KY. Where's the 5th state??? If you think people are coming from Michigan you're nuts, nobody even comes from the Lakeshore counties (see above).

If an airport like PIT, with a larger focus city operation, and not a "midwest" city (typically east coast is more tied to European business than the Midwest - just a generalization) doesn't have Transatlantic service, you IND people are grasping at straws. It's as simple as that. Your NW focus city invoves a bunch of 44-seat CRJ's, you're not an airline hub. Also, to be technical, none of OH, and probably none of KY nor IL would be in your technical MSA (Metropolitan statistic area) and the only reason you see cars from those states in your parking lots is inflated by your LCC-like fares. Does ANY airline actually turn enough yields to make a profit as it is there with some of those bloodbath fares? US sure abandoned ship there long ago. As for "research institutes" yes Purdue and IU are big schools... but to use my PIT example again they have Pitt (huge medical school), Carnegie Mellon (huge scientific research school), and then a bit down the road is WVU (medical, specifically optometry) along with a couple pharamceutical companies in the region. That combo beats the crap out of IU/PU, and that joke at IUPUI isn't significant in any form for international research except for how to make Armanti suits with rip-proof knees for Ron Hunter. I think the viability of NW (or others) putting international out of IND is about as good as the viability of FLL buying a snow plow and anti-skid spreader... sure they could do it, but it's gonna be a waste.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting SRT75 (Reply 36):
Probably would be KLM. NW mainly flies their own equipment to AMS out of the hubs, and relies on KLM equipment and code-share for other US gateways.

KLM and NW interchange equipment, it doesn't matter who flies it, they share all revenue. Subbing a KL 763 for a NW 332 is no different than subbing a NW 744 for a NW D10. NW flies SEA-AMS, BOS-AMS, and JFK-AMS, and, in the past, has flown IAD-AMS, MIA-AMS, and PHL-AMS.

I'm sorry to say it, but, as I've said before, people thinking that IND-AMS is a "shoe in for success" and only a matter of time are in for a reality check.
a.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 40):

I'm sorry to say it, but, as I've said before, people thinking that IND-AMS is a "shoe in for success" and only a matter of time are in for a reality check.


Exactly!
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:23 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 38):
Don't place your bets on IND-AMS anytime soon. NW tried to do PHL-AMS 5 or 6 years ago, and it was a mediocre performer at best. Philadelphia is nearly 3 times the size of Indianapolis, with that being said AMS simply will not happen.

That probably isn't the best example. PHL already great European coverage with US. Why take a flight that requires a connection when you can just get a nonstop flight?

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 39):
I went to Valparaiso, and you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to drive to IND from there, I-65 sucks.

Do you mean US Highway 31? That is the one that goes from Indianapolis to Valpo. I-65 goes to Gary

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 39):
Also, to be technical, none of OH, and probably none of KY nor IL would be in your technical MSA (Metropolitan statistic area) and the only reason you see cars from those states in your parking lots is inflated by your LCC-like fares.

The MSA is basically Indianapolis and the donut counties. The CSA is apparently the new standard and the Indianapolis CSA is around 2 mil now. There is another factor outside of that. That would be cities outside the market but ones that are closer to IND than any other major airport. Bloomington is outside the market as well as Lafayette, Kokomo and Ft. Wayne. I believe they are closer to IND than any other major. Also I-69 will be built through to Evansville and that will open up business even more. While the CSA may be 2 mil there are alot more people that are closer to IND than another airport. Also the Indianapolis market is one of the fastest growing in the nation.

The transatlantic service WILL happen. It is just a matter of time. However it would be 2008 or later most likely but I feel certainly before 2015.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:29 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 42):

That probably isn't the best example. PHL already great European coverage with US. Why take a flight that requires a connection when you can just get a nonstop flight?

Actually, it is a good example. When Northwest/KLM launched this service in 1998, PHL didn't have nearly half the service they currently do. They didn't have Air France and they didn't have half of US Airways' current trans-Atlantic flights.
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MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 42):
The MSA is basically Indianapolis and the donut counties. The CSA is apparently the new standard and the Indianapolis CSA is around 2 mil now.

It is the reverse - CSA's used to be the standard, now MSAs are. The census rid of CSAs in 2004. There is only one officially used count now, MSA, and Indy's MSA population is 1,621,613. CSA's are still counted in by simply combining regional MSA's, though few regions have them anymore.
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Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
Actually, it is a good example. When Northwest/KLM launched this service in 1998, PHL didn't have nearly half the service they currently do. They didn't have Air France and they didn't have half of US Airways' current trans-Atlantic flights.

Just out of curiosity what did they have in the form of European service? And what other major airports are within lets say a 2 hour drive?

Also what does it cost to fly a DC9 load of people for 1 hour? People like to talk about yields. How much money is lost by hauling 2 or 3 DC9 loads of people off to another airport to take a transatlantic trip? It is the very reason NW started all this nonstop service from IND in the first place. It is foolish and an absolute waste of money and a major inconvenience to the customer to require them to connect somewhere else when a nonstop flight was possible.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:39 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
It is the reverse - CSA's used to be the standard, now MSAs are. The census rid of CSAs in 2004. There is only one officially used count now, MSA, and Indy's MSA population is 1,621,613. CSA's are still counted in by simply combining regional MSA's, though few regions have them anymore.

I believe that is incorrect. The MSA used to be the standard and the CSA became the new standard. That was brought to my attention in a discussion about CLT.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
MAH4546
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 46):
I believe that is incorrect. The MSA used to be the standard and the CSA became the new standard. That was brought to my attention in a discussion about CLT.

It is definitley the reverse. You can read all about it here...

http://www.proximityone.com/metros2003.htm

Right near the bottom: There is no longer a CMSA nor PMSA category.

The two, CMSA (CMA) and PMSA (MSA) used to be used interchangeably. For example, Atlanta was a CSA and Miami-Fort Lauderdale was an MSA. One of the big changes in 2003 was to end this confusion, and bring a more firm definition to MSA. CSA's are still tallied, but not weighted as much anymore.

It figures someone from Charlotte would state the opposite...Charlotte's population numbers took a major beating because of this change.

[Edited 2005-08-04 03:55:56]
a.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:02 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 42):
Also the Indianapolis market is one of the fastest growing in the nation.

So is the Lehigh Valley... you can get your Transatlantic, with a stop in ABE, before going across the pond.  Wink Hooters air already does ABE-GYY-LAS, so there is precedent. If we pool funds, and find some investors, we can go get our ETOPS 757's for the route. We'll become millionaires. haha.

Quoting Indy (Reply 42):

Do you mean US Highway 31? That is the one that goes from Indianapolis to Valpo. I-65 goes to Gary


No, I meant 65. 31 goes to South Bend at the airport area on the west side. 65 goes to Merrillville before GYY, that exit is even signed to Valparaiso at the US 30 exit in M-ville (It's 12-ish miles from Merrillville to VPZ on 30... although locals take IN-2 SW to hit 65 near the booming metropolis of Lowell). Valpo really has no Southbound highway, as 49 turns into a 2-lane farm road a bit south of town. 30 goes East-west and is 4-lanes all the way... I used to take that eastward to Ohio before ducking down to Columbus to go on my journey to/from campus and home S of PIT. Random towns and traffic lights made it less boring than the 425 miles of turnpikes, and it was more direct for me. US 421 goes N-S a little bit east of VPZ, but that's 2 lane and not really a "highway." 31 is a good 40 miles east of Valpo where it crosses 30 down towards Plymouth, its kinda like the midpoint of the state when going E-W, where VPZ is in the NW. That's part of the problem with VPZ, no good highway access to the south, and I used to do that VPZ-IND area trek semi-frequently, I somewhat dated a girl in Greenwood at one time going right past the airport on 465.

Sure IND's catchment area includes LAF, and BMG (assuming that's Bloomington, IN's code?) but in all honesty, IND is missing the influx of the northern tier counties, and a big chunk of IN population lives up there. Other than LAF, there's pretty much nothing between US 30 and I-465 on I-65, and 31 is likewise between SBN and IND except for Kokomo. It's a shame that LAF and Bloomington aren't EAS cities, I'd really love to just fly to LAF instead of IND. Too bad CO via Commutair doesn't start B1900's CLE-LAF, I'd be a big user of it!

I had heard rumblings of an HSR (High speed rail) link before leaving VPZ... basically up the I-65 and I-69 corridors, is this just some pie in the sky or is it something legit? Should be cheaper to build than PA's pipedream of HSR looking at the topography of IN vs PA.

Quoting Indy (Reply 42):
Ft. Wayne.

Their airport has decent service for a city of that size. And like I said, LAN might be closer than IND... considering IND is on the west side of town. For that matter, Midway isn't too much further than IND if you hit it at an off-peak traffic time. I'm actually flying to FWA next week for a wedding, they've got RJ's from DL, NW (with Saabs mixed in), AA, and UA, and B1900's from CO via CLE. I chose CO because of One Pass, and the easy connections at CLE from here in ABE vs going to ATL or ORD.
 
Indy
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RE: Is IND Over Served?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:11 am

In the link you sent it has...

"Maps located on the Metros main page show the U.S. by 2003 MSA by population percent change between 4/1/2000 and 7/1/2002 and 4/1/2000 and 7/1/2003. A table presented below shows the largest 10 MSA based on the 2003 population data. All 10 MSAs, except Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI MSA, which remained almost unchanged, continued to show population growth between 4/1/2000 and 7/1/2003. "

This was talking about changes in the MSA from 2000 to 2002.

This site makes it look as if MSA and CSA are used...
http://www.calmis.ca.gov/htmlfile/msadef.htm

Or look at this one.
http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Sect.../ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=8836

The last one is as clear as mud. And if you go by...

www.njsetc.net/news/Metropolitan%20A...20Census%202000%2012-14%201-00.ppt

There are 4 different areas.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air

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