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STT757
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CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:30 am

Quote:
"Ahh, 18 Hours of Comfort on a Long-Haul Airplane

By JOE SHARKEY
Published: August 2, 2005

FROM the jolly back-and-forth between Continental Airlines executives and Boeing executives at the Newark airport last week, it was evident to me that a good-size sum of money was about to change hands somewhere.

Officially, Boeing was present in the huge Continental hangar to give the New York news media a look at its newest long-haul plane, the 777-200LR, which will enter commercial service next year. One of the planes, on a 20-city world demonstration tour, was on display.

Business Travel Minute: The Longest Non-Stop Flight in the WorldOnce the news media cleared out, Boeing officials had a party for 200 Continental employees. "Continental is an all-Boeing operator and a very good customer," said Jim Condelles, a spokesman for Boeing's commercial airplanes division. "They already have quite a fleet of 777's, and they've been expanding their international routes at phenomenal rates." Continental also happens to be making money.

Three days after the event at Newark, Continental announced that it had ordered two new Boeing 777-200ER's to add to its existing fleet of 18 of that model. The 700-200ER's are the current "long-range workhorse" of the Continental fleet, said the company's chief executive, Larry Kellner. Long-range routes, he pointed out, are the most profitable segment of the industry."

Complete article at..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/business/02road.html?pagewanted=all
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:36 am

There's a video that accompanies that article, it shows the Boeing 777-200LR inside one of CO's Wide body hangars at EWR.
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roseflyer
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:51 am

Well I am not surprised at all. CO operates some very long haul flights now that would benefit from the 772LR. It wouldn't be a large fleet, but EWR-HKG and EWR-DEL could benefit from the extra range over the 772ER or 787. Hopefully Continental does well enough to be able to order more planes as they do need the long range capacity.
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hz747300
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:00 pm

Especially when they launch EWR-SYD!
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ikramerica
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:02 pm

Yes, that's where they parked it.

CO wants it and more 777s and 787s than the 10 they ordered. They could even use more 767s, frankly. They need widebody aircraft desperately.

Their 757s are flying at 100% capacity on many, many routes, and this is NOT optimal. It creates delays, misconnect nightmares, and makes CO seem difficult to get a ticket on. Either they need to increase capacity, or if they can't do that, raise their fares to get loads on these routes down to 80% with the same revenue stream.

As for widebodies, EWR-LAX should really be served by 762s to effectively compete at this point. Premium flyers and full Y elites are getting tired of the limited F capacity on the 757s, not to mention the age of some of their 757 fleet. But adding more BF to the 757 fleet cramps an already oversold Y cabin.

While the BF experience this morning of flying 757 Hamburg to EWR was quite wonderful, in coach it looked to be crappy, since the plane was very old. The HAM-EWR was completely full and according to the crews it has been full or oversold regularly. I could support a 767 if B had one. Berlin looks to be the same. Germans are taking to the non-stop CO flights to EWR quite well, with Business First sold out completely and economy most days as well. But CO has no spare equipment.

CO would love to return 777s to certain routes that are using 767s now, use those 767s in other places. And they need to improve the longer range 757 fleet desperately, with a new Y product on the level of the 767/777 product.

But they need funding, or favorable lease terms, to get new planes, and they need even more money to fix up the older 757s. And right now, despite a slightly profitable outlook, they don't have the money.

Ultimately, CO could use 25 783s and 6-8 new 772LRs tomorrow, and 25 788s too (10 788s just isn't going to cut it to play in the big leagues). They are on the verge of damaging their reputation by making it too difficult and cramped to fly on them, despite their good service.
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abirda
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:19 pm

I'm sorry, but where does the article make any sort of speculation about CO getting the 772LR? I see a nice description of the 772LR, comments on CO from Boeing, and a brief mention of CO's -ER order that has been well publicized. The article isn't even really about CO.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Ultimately, CO could use 25 783s and 6-8 new 772LRs tomorrow, and 25 788s too

Where would CO need 25 783s in their route structure? I don't think that makes much sense given that they are so focused on long-haul expansion and the 788 would be more capable in those markets.
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:26 pm

Why would they be hosting a party (after the media left) for 200 CO employees in the Hangar with the 777-200LR if they were just ordering 2 more 777-200ER's.
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abirda
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:32 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Why would they be hosting a party (after the media left) for 200 CO employees in the Hangar with the 777-200LR if they were just ordering 2 more 777-200ER's.

I'm not saying that there is no possibility of a -LR order from CO. And I'm quite sure Boeing is hard at work courting as many orders as possible for the 772LR. A party for CO employees hardly indicates that the order is coming however. CO is already a good Boeing customer and has active orders on the books, one of which was announced shortly after this party. It is a stretch to say that this article links CO and the 772LR.
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:53 pm

Ikramerica,
Not old 757s. Just old and worn interior on a 757.
A five year old plane could be crap on the inside if it isn't reburbished.
I have been on a 25 year old JL 747 classic with brand-new seats. Average Joe would never know the aircraft to be 25-years old or brand-new.

Would be nice to have CO order 4 or 5 772LR for those long-haul routes that put the 772ER to its envelope.
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 8):
Would be nice to have CO order 4 or 5 772LR for those long-haul routes that put the 772ER to its envelope.

Why? So the airline can go into the red acquiring airplanes it can't afford?
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drerx7
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:01 pm

Too bad they didn't acquire some newer build 763s--weren't they looking at the possibility of adding those at one point besides the previous cancelled order?
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Halibut
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):
Especially when they launch EWR-SYD!

Both ways , nonstop ???

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 8):
Would be nice to have CO order 4 or 5 772LR for those long-haul routes that put the 772ER to its envelope.

Agreed .

Would love to see that .

Would EWR / Bangkok Thailand be possible nonstop both way as well ?


 scratchchin 

Thanks

Halibut
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B742
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 11):
Would EWR / Bangkok Thailand be possible nonstop both way as well ?

Yes, as TG uses the 345 on its JFK-BKK route!

Rob!  Smile
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:38 am

If they are so desperate for widebody lnoghaul capacity, why don't they lease a few 767 or 777 that are in the desert right now???
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:44 am

From my understanding there are very few GE90 777s available right now--otherwise they would have done so--there was a uberlengthy discussion about that specifically a couple of weeks ago. As far as 767s--I wondered that too. It seems to me that it would have made sense to lease some 763s--but perhaps they deamed it too costly to add another sub variant with 787s coming eventually; plus they would have to be outfitted with PTVs and BF etal. I would like to see them add 763s--they could place them on Hawaii, Florida, Vegas, LAX, SEA, and ANC flights as well as on the trunk routes to Europe where they need to pull 777s off and the 757s aren't large enough for the demand. I'm sure it won't happen though.
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N60659
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:54 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 14):
From my understanding there are very few GE90 777s available right now

If the information on Planespotters.com is accurate, there is only one UA 777-222 that is stored (N766UA which is PW 4077 powered). No GE90 powered 777s available.

-N60659
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dutchjet
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:45 am

Maybe I am missing something - but I do not see anything in the article about a CO 772LR order.....Boeing did bring the aircraft to EWR, lots of CO employees took a look, everyone had an enjoyable afternoon, and thats about it.

CO would love to go out and buy 5 or more 772LRs, and a few more 772ERs, and tie up delivery positions for about 25 787s (but I am not so sure that CO wants any more 767s at this point).......but money it still tight and we are talking about some very expensive airplanes. If fares come up a bit, and fuel prices go down a bit, and CO can turn a couple of hundred million in profits in each of the coming financial quarters, we will see more orders from CO, until then its just not possible.

CO did show a profit for the 2Q2005 - good news and certainly a step in the right direction and maybe the worst is now over - but that is a small amount when compared to the hundreds and hundreds of millions lost in the past 4 years; its gonna take some time until CO is in the position to place a major new aircraft order.
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:56 am

So, I guess Airbus isn't getting a look in here (he says, jokingly!)

It wouldn't surprise me to see CO getting the -200LR; I am sure there are quite a few routes they could be operated on and if a business case can be made for these routes, then it is may well be worth considering. The problem is that they will have to wait another 3-4 years for 787s, so I guess it's a question of soldiering on with 752s until then.

One of the big problems facing the US airline industry right now, particularly since US dived into the HP sauce (!), is that it isn't rationalising the way it should be. One airline should have gone by now (and I certainly don't expect it to be CO) and the problem for the rest of them - no matter how successful or well run they are - is that the more overcapacity there is in the market, the more difficult it is for all airlines to turn a profit - and certainly a profit sufficient to allow the kind of fleet replacement that needs to take place.
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
full Y elites are getting tired of the limited F capacity on the 757s.

Perhaps they should consider actually paying for F as opposed to relying on capacity-controlled upgrades?

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
not to mention the age of some of their 757 fleet..

Huh? Last I checked, CO's got one of the youngest B-757 fleets in the industry...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
But adding more BF to the 757 fleet cramps an already oversold Y cabin.

Agreed - and as you said, CO needs to raise the fares in certain markets to bring the LF down to the low 80s but raise yields simultaneously.
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:01 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 3):
Especially when they launch EWR-SYD!



Quoting Halibut (Reply 11):
Both ways , nonstop ???

The B777-200LR can certainly fly EWR-SYD both ways nonstop. SYD-EWR is easy with a lot of cargo. EWR-SYD would be cargo restricted -- probably just mail and other high revenue urgent cargo. Whether or not CO can make money on the route is a different question.
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
Huh? Last I checked, CO's got one of the youngest B-757 fleets in the industry...

They sure do.

N
 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:19 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
full Y elites are getting tired of the limited F capacity on the 757s.

Perhaps they should consider actually paying for F as opposed to relying on capacity-controlled upgrades?

The purpose of F cabins these days is generally to keep frequent fliers happy. Particularly on cross-country flights. It's not like Tom Cruise is up there in F class, paying his fare. That was the old days. When FF Elite people can't upgrade and get mad, that's a problem for the airline.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
But adding more BF to the 757 fleet cramps an already oversold Y cabin.

Agreed -

I don't see what you could possibly mean here. So what if an Atlantic crosser 757 has only 120 coach seats? Is it somehow more crowded to have fewer humans on the plane? Are you saying CO has cut the seat pitch in coach class?

BF is the reason such flights even exist... they are not designed for tourists exactly. BF is king and whatever room is left in the plane, they will fill with coach class slop.
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ikramerica
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 8):
Not old 757s. Just old and worn interior on a 757.

NO! They have SOME old PLANES. Is their 757 fleet, on average, new? Yes, but they took delivery of a bunch of new ones, including 753s. but they also fly some OLDER ones, with very old seats and interiors. I said SOME, have repeatedly said SOME, yet people read that as ALL for some STUPID reason. If I meant ALL, I would have been talking about AA, not CO. But they do have SOME approaching 12 years, with interiors and IFE that old (except for extended bins to hold lots of carry ons, added later  Smile )

yes, they should improve the interior. it's what i said, isn't it? I didn't say they should get rid of 12 year old planes, but that their old interiors are not up to snuff, and they are right now only fixing the F cabin in these planes, replacing 24 older F seats with 16 wonderful BF seats and adding a lav, decreasing capacity. The Y is being left alone, with old fixed headrest seats with old trays that sag/fall on their own, yellowing bins, emergency doors with loose panels and leaky (air and water) handles, etc. Nothing safety related, just a general lack of quality, and they are using these planes to new destinations in Europe like Hamburg! In their whole fleet, these are the only planes that really aren't up to snuff in Y, yet they showcase them to the world. Heck, even some 733s have upgraded Y and F cabins with IFE and airfones!

It's sad when these old 757s have commercials on the IFE (very old and small overhead LCD screens that are hooked to a video system that can no longer hold color and picture steady), and these commercials are for an airfone product the plane does not have!!! Ouch! Fly that to Hamburg for 8 hours and tell me the plane is newer than some other airlines so it's okay. it's not.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 14):
As far as 767s--I wondered that too.

See other posts. There are no NEWER 767s available. CO has one of the youngest 767 fleets out there, average of 4 years, younger than their 777 fleet. They would rather take the discarded new 753s than a 15 year old 767s and spend money to refit such an old plane with a new CO 777 interior (at GREAT cost). But they aren't going to spend new money on NEW 767s when they also need 777s and 753s, and the 787 is looming. I don't blame them.

I'm just sure they wish they had 20 762s and 30 764s instead of their current 10/16 fleet, but at the time, they didn't have the money/need I suppose.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 18):
Perhaps they should consider actually paying for F as opposed to relying on capacity-controlled upgrades?

Perhaps you should quote me in full rather than taking a part quote out of context!

And if you don't know, and you obviously don't, FULL Y routinely costs MORE than discounted F on CO, which is why CO is very willing to upgrade full Y for elites at booking if available.

Further, companies are not willing to buy FULL F, but will pay for full Y, and can't buy discounted F since they need to do last minute travel. Making a blanket statement like everyone flying in economy is a cheapskate so deserves to be treated like crap is very common on this board, but it is often just ignorance on the part of the poster.

Just for your own edification, a discounted (restricted F) fare from LAX-EWR on CO in September is about $1150. An unrestricted FULL Y fare on the same flight is $1400. A full F fare is $1600. If you think the person paying Full Y is cheap, you are either rich or stupid.

And in addition, the FULL F (A) fare is also often sold out days in advanced on CO EWR-LAX, which means they can't be bought, period. Same day? Forget it on many, many CO flights, transcon and even leisure markets like Florida.

And as I said, people willing to pay these very high fares are angry because there are just no seats to be purchased! Nothing upsets a person with money more than to be denied something they are willing to pay for from their favorite supplier!

So, to answer another question, CO could easily use the 783 transcon every flight, 7x a day. Their load factors are so high on every segment I've been on, they seem to be completely capacity restricted. An all 783 EWR-LAX service would elevate CO immediately to AA/UA status in this market. 30 BF seats and 220Y with AVOD. Beats the hell out of the 752, and would knock Primaris out of the market before they got off the ground (if that ever happens).

They could also use them on IAH-EWR, as well as some EWR routes like SFO, SEA, and some IAH routes including south america and anchorage in the summer. And IAH-LAX on 2-3 frequencies a day would also be fillable with paying premium pax and Y pax, as would EWR-MIA.

Okay, maybe they don't NEED 25 (or any, since they are making due with what they have), but if they HAD 25, they could fill them right now from all I can see, which was the point. And they wouldn't need to be taking used 753s instead.

But CO just doesn't have the money, and even if they did, they don't have access to those planes for years, and investing in 767s seems like a wrong headed choice. And this is increasingly angering VERY LOYAL CO customers who are feeling like CO is too popular for it's own good. Just ask any President's Club rep, Elite check-in agent, or elite telephone agent about the displeasure
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abirda
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:27 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
Maybe I am missing something - but I do not see anything in the article about a CO 772LR order.....Boeing did bring the aircraft to EWR, lots of CO employees took a look, everyone had an enjoyable afternoon, and thats about it.

I am pleased to see that someone else is able to see through all of this unwarranted hype. CO is not getting the 772LR.

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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:33 am

So, what is a 700-200ER?  drunk 
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
NO! They have SOME old PLANES. Is their 757 fleet, on average, new? Yes, but they took delivery of a bunch of new ones, including 753s. but they also fly some OLDER ones, with very old seats and interiors. I said SOME, have repeatedly said SOME, yet people read that as ALL for some STUPID reason. If I meant ALL, I would have been talking about AA, not CO. But they do have SOME approaching 12 years, with interiors and IFE that old (except for extended bins to hold lots of carry ons, added later )

I guess thats what you consider old--they were all delivered from 1994-2000 so even the 12 yr old threshhold is pretty young by most standards. I prefer COs 'old' 757s than many of the others plying the skies. I agree with you on the 767s addition as well--as I said in the post you replied too

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 14):
but perhaps they deamed it too costly to add another sub variant with 787s coming eventually; plus they would have to be outfitted with PTVs and BF etal.
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QF744
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:42 pm

CO is an airline that should take the iniative and challenge QF and UA on the New York-Sydney (albeit via LAX at present) route. Hope QF order the 772LR to do the direct flights and another carrier, expecially CO, ordering the plane would be great.

Remember CO do currently serve Australia at present - on the Cairns-Guam route!

Bring on the direct flights... no more mucking around at LAX!

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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
Boeing did bring the aircraft to EWR, lots of CO employees took a look, everyone had an enjoyable afternoon, and thats about it.

I remember when Boeing flew a Condor 757-300 around when it was launched as part of a sales campaign, they brought it to Houston for the CO folks to check out. A year or two later CO ordered 15 757-300s.
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abirda
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:11 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 27):
I remember when Boeing flew a Condor 757-300 around when it was launched as part of a sales campaign, they brought it to Houston for the CO folks to check out. A year or two later CO ordered 15 757-300s.

Yes, but you could hardly call that any kind of a link, and it is certainly not in the same vane as what is being inferred from this article.
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:13 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 27):
I remember when Boeing flew a Condor 757-300 around when it was launched as part of a sales campaign, they brought it to Houston for the CO folks to check out. A year or two later CO ordered 15 757-300s.

Saw a Condor 752 at HAM yesterday morning. Nice looking plane.

But everyone on the observation deck (mostly people watching friends/family depart) was staring at the CO 752 as it landed and taxied to gate. After all, most people had never seen a Continental plane at Hamburg and are not too familiar with CO. Plus, besides the Condor, it was the largest plane at Hamburg so far that day.
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ikramerica
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:18 pm

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 25):
I guess thats what you consider old--they were all delivered from 1994-2000 so even the 12 yr old threshhold is pretty young by most standards.

Not by international first tier airline standards, 12 years is not young. Any plane past a D check for this type of service is 'old' in my book. Not for charter or low yield routes, but for the competitive premium trans atlantic market? Newer planes are always welcome.

I have no problem with CO flying this 12 year old interior plane on IAH-TPA, for example, or CLE-IAH, or something in that length/yield area. But on an 8 hour international flight into a new market where you are trying to impress, I'd hope for something better, especially from CO, which is proud of it's current high status among travelers.
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RE: CO 777-200LR Order Speculation From NY Times

Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:27 pm

All that is cool but I don't think that there are numbers that really justify your claims; especially since many airlines are flying older twin jets and Airbus that are just as old as COs 757s. They are planning to upgrade the interiors with new IFE if thats what you are looking for--but there is no fiscal merit to...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 30):
But on an 8 hour international flight into a new market where you are trying to impress, I'd hope for something better, especially from CO, which is proud of it's current high status among travelers.

It would be nice though--I guess. After flying on HPs 757s I don't see anything wrong with Continentals.
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