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VirginFlyer
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Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:20 pm

This thread is intended to follow on from Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ (by JetCaptain Aug 2 2005 in Civil Aviation)

There are a number of other threads about aspects of this issue. If your post would fit better in one of those threads, please use them. If it is more a general post, please use this one. Whichever you choose, please only make your post in one thread. For your information, these are the other active threads relating to aspects of this issue (I am pretty sure this covers them all):
Cancellations As A Result Of Air France Crash? (by Jmc1975 Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
Congratulations Air France Crew (by Traveler Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
How Is Immigration Dealt In AF/YYZ Case? (by Venezuela747 Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
AF 358, A Crash Or A Simple Accident? (by A5XX Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
An Accident That We Can Learn Hard From! (by Palladium Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
The Airbus A340 Has An Excellent Safety Record... (by CV990 Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
Air France Loss - Seating Arrangements (by Timmytour Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)
Have You Ever Seen A Crew In Action? (by FlyGuyClt Aug 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Anyway, please continue on the general discussion here.

Might I add my 2c and say that when I first heard of this news this morning, I thought that there was going to be a horrible loss of life. That everyone was able to get out is fantastic. There will be plenty of time to debate the causes in the future, but right now I think we should be thankful that there are over 300 people out there who could easily have been another aviation statistic, but instead are safe and sound. We can only hope that future aviation accidents may be able to have the same result...

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
CV580Freak
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:26 pm

560+ posts, 70,000 views to original thread, is this a A.Net record ?
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:26 pm

Glad about the new thread, the previous one caused my IE to crash...

One thing I noticed on one of the two pics here so far:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lee Thomas



You can see on the nr1 engine that the thrust reversers were deployed, but I do not see any deployed spoiler... This could be due to the angle of photography, or loss of hyd pressure after the incident. But a total loss of control can probably be discounted if the thrust reversers can be seen.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
yul332LX
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:35 pm

I posted it in the other thread but it's been locked so...

Pics on the internet:







E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
aireuropeuk733
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:38 pm

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 2):
Glad about the new thread, the previous one caused my IE to crash...

And mine!! Glad everyone got out safe and sound and hats off to all the crew for doing a fantastic job

AE733
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aamd11
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:40 pm

>> 560+ posts, 70,000 views to original thread, is this a A.Net record ?

I doubt that very much - I've a feeling a certain September 11th thread was bigger.
 
STARalliance24
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:41 pm

The people had to literally jump out of the plane!!! The where no slides ????
 
Matt27
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:44 pm

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 6):
The people had to literally jump out of the plane!!! The where no slides ????

It doesn't look like it
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stall
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:47 pm

Very impressive pictures !!!

It seems the plane was burning before all passengers had evacuate the plane. It seems that the evacuation slides were not deployed, people had to jump from the doors/emergency exits. Is it a normal procedure or should the slides have been deployed ?

Anyway congrats to the cabin crew, they did a splendid job !!!!

 bigthumbsup 
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BCAL
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:50 pm

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 6):
The where no slides ????

From studying the pictures posted by YUL332LX it looks like the front door is about 6-8' from the ground and the middle door about 10-12', so I think that the deployment of slides would probably have hindered the evacuation.

Just my 0.02c

[Edited 2005-08-03 16:52:44]
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:50 pm

Quoting Stall (Reply 8):
It seems that the evacuation slides were not deployed, people had to jump from the doors/emergency exits. Is it a normal procedure or should the slides have been deployed ?


It looks to me like the 1L slide has deployed, so perhaps it is just a fault with the 2L one (the only other one which we'd expect to be visible in the photos posted by YUL332LX...)

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:53 pm

Thx, I have tried all day to open the 550+ thread, without success... Too hard to download.
Impressive pictures!
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:07 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 6):
The people had to literally jump out of the plane!!! The where no slides ????

Huh, I was watching Fox news in Phoenix last night and they were going on about a Phoenix based company who made the slides, boasting about the local links.

BF
Fortune favours the brave
 
GBan
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:11 am

Very interesting pictures, YUL332LX.

As a side note: I wouldn't have expected people to carry their bags in such a situation. I personally would rather leave my expensive notebook and camera behind and be happy to get out as fast as possible.
 
xjramper
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:15 am

I have to hand it to the AF crew for getting everyone off safely. That's what the FA's are there to do, not just to serve you drinks. A job well done.  Smile

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
jush
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:16 am

I still think of people who think about pictures in this situation... i would be paniced to get my ass out of that plane wouldn't think of taking pictures at all.
But very scary and i a way spectacular to see those pics...
Glad that everyone survived and only minor injuries.... It could have been a bad day for aviation....
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
yul332LX
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:17 am

JFYI,

The pictures I provided above are now loaded on airdisaster.com
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sleekjet
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:23 am

Can someone give me some info about a KLM flight running low on fuel over Toronto after the crash?
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
KL808
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:27 am

This is MY theory on the incident:

1.) The Aircraft was given clearance to land.
2.) A violent storm started just as when the Aircraft landed.
3.) The Aircraft started to Hydroplane, Reversers deployed but wheels where not in contact with the pavement.
4.) Brakes on wheels where applied, subsequently brakes overheated and started to smoke and fire.
5.) Aircraft starts swerving on the runway.
6.) Aircraft couldn't stop, overshot runway and fell in the ditch.
7.) Aircraft breaks in half due to falling in the ditch.
8.) Fire engulfed aircraft due to fire from the Landing gear.

That's my take on the accident.

Drew
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oakmad
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:31 am

Just this report:

Quote:
Passengers told how the power on the jet went out about one minute before the landing and how they believed it was hit by lightning.

"I saw lightning," Mr Bramer said. "Maybe the plane had already been hit by lightning. The reason I'm mentioning that is because just as we landed, the lights turned off. And that's unusual. So I'm sure that the bad weather was responsible."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/we-thought-the-plane-would-blow-up/2005/08/03/1122748664261.html
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:31 am

From cnn.com

Quote:
The evacuation of more than 300 people took less than two minutes, with a co-pilot the last to leave the flaming wreckage, airport Fire Chief Mike Figliola said.

Figliola said three-quarters of the passengers and crew aboard the plane left the wreckage in the 52 seconds it took for emergency crews to arrive.

"The crew did a great job. They're trained to get the people off," Figliola said

Wow Congratulations to AF Crew personnel, those guys saved hundreds that day
Take off and live
 
WhyWhyZed
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:52 am

WOW, what a day it was yesterday. I had to go to YYZ to drop my grandmother off. We left my hourse at 4:10 and picked her up. All along we thought it was just a normal day, besides the dark clouds towards Toronto. We hit Oakville and got a HUGE downpour, so we exited at Dorval and went to Timmy's. After a bit of a wait, we proceeded. Flying over the 427, we saw a darker streak in the sky, but it was scattered, So we just figured it was a low rain cloud.

Little did we know, when we T3 departures, emergency vehicles were everywhere. At this point the time was 5:30-5:45. We still proceeded, until we started to hear news within the terminal, that it was a 737, no other news at the time. She checked in, and she decided to just go past security and wait for the plane. At this point it was about 6:15.

I rushed out to try and get more info, since I still never knew the RWY at the time, then I headed out for a drive to find it.

Security, had everywhere covered. I was shocked. Places that I thought people never went...hehehehe. Even some business buildings had security in their parking lot. It was definitely being kept confidential. I can just imagine how pissed off the media was, you can see them walking around the whole half of the airport trying to find a shot.

All in all, Malev was diverted to YUL, and it arrived back at YYZ at midnight, and departed for BUD at 2:40AM

< /life story >

http://www.wwspotters.com/af340.jpg
http://www.wwspotters.com/af340.jpg
(My crappy attempt at trying to be the first with photos from the events...Look at the tire tracks going down the hill)

Anyone got ATC feeds??? I'm dieing to find some. ATClive has some stuff but I can't find anything with AF. I think they might have had to remove the AF part's since it goes quiet for a bit, quite often.

- Jason DePodesta

[Edited 2005-08-03 18:00:03]
 
scandinavian
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:56 am

Incredible pictures! What can you say? Great work from the Air France crew, it´s hard to understand that no one died in this terrible crash.
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scbriml
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:57 am

You do have to wonder why the hell those people are taking their hand luggage with them.  crazy 
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STARalliance24
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:57 am

[quote=WhyWhyZed,reply=21]WOW, what a day it was yesterday. I had to go to YYZ to drop my grandmother off. We left my hourse at 4:10 and picked her up. All along we thought it was just a normal day, besides the dark clouds towards Toronto. We hit Oakville and got a HUGE downpour, so we exited at Dorval and went to Timmy's. After a bit of a wait, we proceeded. Flying over the 427, we saw a darker streak in the sky, but it was scattered, So we just figured it was a low rain cloud.

Little did we know, when we T3 departures, emergency vehicles were everywhere. At this point the time was 5:30-5:45. We still proceeded, until we started to hear news within the terminal, that it was a 737, no other news at the time. She checked in, and she decided to just go past security and wait for the plane. At this point it was about 6:15.

I rushed out to try and get more info, since I still never knew the RWY at the time, then I headed out for a drive to find it.

Security, had everywhere covered. I was shocked. Places that I thought people never went...hehehehe. Even some business buildings had security in their parking lot. It was definitely being kept confidential. I can just imagine how pissed off the media was, you can see them walking around the whole half of the airport trying to find a shot.

All in all, Malev was diverted to YUL, and it arrived back at YYZ at midnight, and departed for BUD at 2:40AM




http://www.airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=af340.jpg
(My crappy attempt at trying to be the first with photos from the events)

Anyone got ATC feeds??? I'm dieing to find some. ATClive has some stuff but I can't find anything with AF. I think they might have had to remove the AF part's since it goes quiet for a bit, quite often.

What a day indeed.
 
artsyman
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:02 am

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 6):
The people had to literally jump out of the plane!!! The where no slides ????

Slides are actually very flamable, and are not meant to be deployed close to fire. While I have no idea if this is the reason for 2L not to be deployed, but it is something that you are taught in training.
 
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vzlet
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:06 am

Maybe the extra engines caused control problems.
From CP, via Yahoo:
"The Airbus A-340's twin tail-mounted engines had just started to burn when Figiola arrived on the scene less than a minute after the crash."
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
3.) The Aircraft started to Hydroplane, Reversers deployed but wheels where not in contact with the pavement.

I'm pretty sure the 340 reversers are locked if the wheels aren't on the ground.

Quoting Sleekjet (Reply 17):
Can someone give me some info about a KLM flight running low on fuel over Toronto after the crash?

IIRC it went to Syracuse. No drama.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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scbriml
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:09 am

Good video report on BBC's News home page http://news.bbc.co.uk/
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Sabena332
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:10 am

Quoting GBan (Reply 13):
As a side note: I wouldn't have expected people to carry their bags in such a situation. I personally would rather leave my expensive notebook and camera behind and be happy to get out as fast as possible.

I was wondering about the same when I saw the pictures. I would definitely leave my carry-on luggage behind to get out as fast as possible and to occupy as less space as possible in the cabin during the evacuation.

Patrick
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matt
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:11 am

YUL332LX, where are the pictures from?
Next flights: YQM-YOW-YOW / YQM-YYZ-CPH-YYZ-YQM / YQM-YUL-LYS-BRU-YUL-YQM / YQM-PUJ-YQM
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:16 am

The pics were taken by pax with cellphones.


So how long will it take until they paint over the titles? Should be today I would think. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SNBru
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 18):
7.) Aircraft breaks in half due to falling in the ditch.

I could be wrong, but as far as I heard, the aircraft didn't break. You can see it on the pictures. The aircraft broke after the fire started over the whole fuselage. Due to high temperatures probably the aircraft started to break.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:17 am

From cnn.com.

"John McDougall, deputy chief of the Mississauga Fire Department, said that when the first fire crew reached the plane about 52 seconds after the crash, about three-quarters of the passengers had gotten off."

This is good news. Means the 90 second regs are realistic.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
zsx81
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:29 am

Really makes you wonder if people really think about all the reponsibility when they say yes to "Will you be willing and able to assist in case of an emergency" when sitting in the exit row.
 
baw716
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:31 am

They say a picture tells a thousand words...
This is certainly true in this case:
1) The 1L slide is deployed, but does not appear to be completely inflated, the angle of the slide is too steep. The 2L slide did not deploy at all. The previous assessment was likely correct, it was too close to the fire.
2) The fire does appear to be a brake fire, not a fuel fire. I don't see any break in the wing at the join with the fuselage. The reversers were deployed on the right side. However, another poster is correct, the reversers are locked and do not deploy until the aircraft wheel make ground contact (prevents accidental deployment in the air).

If two doors were operational on the port side and some of the doors were operational on the starboard side and there was a brake fire, then they had some time on their side to get everyone out before the brake fire filled the cabin completely with smoke and spread to the wing tanks and burned through to the fuel (which it never did, because the fire services were there before that happened). The fuselage, however, did not survive and was burned out.

It does, however, confirm my theory that the aircraft was traveling at a slow enough speed (under 60kts) when it went into the gulch that the fuselage remained in one piece (save the tail and the engines) and the foilage under the brakes fueled its fire.

Again, we will have to wait and hear from the pilots as to what actually happened in the cockpit. This may be some time before this information is released, since it will form part of the investigation into the accident. However, all the people are safe, the Air France cabin crew did a magnificant job of getting everybody out and away from the aircraft, and as for the flight crew, we will see what happened in short time.

Personally, my theory is simple. Conditions were awful, winds swirling causing shear conditions, pilots had to increase speed on approach and landing to assure suffficient Vref speed to make touchdown without shear stall and as a result, were on the ground too fast to be able to stop within the distance remaining on a wet runway. We shall we if this theory holds up to be closer to the truth.

For now, just up be thankful that everyone is safe and that it could have been much worse, much much worse if a severe shear had occured just before they touched down.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
BestWestern
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:37 am

I was thinking of potential static from cell phone (from the cameras) and aviation fuel vapors.

Its a well known fact that many people try and take their duty free with them when evacuating aircraft....
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:38 am

Looking at the pic taken by WhyWhyZed, you can pretty much say with an Arrestor Bed system this wouldn't have been so bad (for the aircraft). It's good to hear that even without it all the pax made it out safely.

Mike
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 36):
I was thinking of potential static from cell phone (from the cameras) and aviation fuel vapors.

Well the fuel was already burning so... In any case this is no biggie unless you're standing in the tank. Contrary to popular belief, jet fuel is notoriously hard to ignite.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:46 am

"The Airbus A-340's twin tail-mounted engines had just started to burn when Figiola arrived on the scene less than a minute after the crash."

Another wonderful media quote of stupidity and ignorance. Wish people would do 25 seconds of research before writing news articles.

On another note... It's absolutely fantastic that all 309 aboard survived because of crew training and also something that the FAA has never implemented in the USA. The Canadian Authorities have the crew go over safety rules before landing a flight that has lasted more than 4 hours. Kudos to the crew and Canadian Aviation authorities. Best wishes to all the families involved also.
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milan320
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:57 am

Has YYZ installed any protective measures for aircraft that overshoot the runway? I believe one is called EMAS (Engineered Material Arresting System).
Would it have been beneficial in this case had it been installed?
Other airports have done so, but does anyone know whether this is/was done at Pearson at all? Given the previous crash some years ago, I'd think that some measures would have been taken. Pearson is one of the most expensive airports to land at in the world, so I'm sure the GTAA can afford it.
Cheers!
/Milan
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 40):
Has YYZ installed any protective measures for aircraft that overshoot the runway? I believe one is called EMAS (Engineered Material Arresting System).
Would it have been beneficial in this case had it been installed?

Since these systems requires prepositioning it would not have been beneficial. Nobody (probably including the pilots) knew anything was going to go wrong until the wheels were on the ground.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:07 am

Now that it appears that everyone on board is safe, the only thing tragic in this case is the loss of a nice aircraft. Still sad to see..

Looking at the pictures of the end of the runway above, it appears by the tracks in the grass that the aircraft fairly much remained on the center of the runway(at least at the end). I imagine that it is a good thing that there was a revene and not any structures at the end of the runway such as in the case of the AA(can't recall the number) incident in Little Rock. I'll personally wait till the investigators finish their work before further guessing!

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 23):
You do have to wonder why the hell those people are taking their hand luggage with them.

Makes it more incredible as they got over 300 off-board including half the carry-on luggage in two minutes! Funny how materialism still has its effects in the most traumatic of times..Just a little humor  Wink

Best of kudos to the flight crews of the flight for doing their job right!
Same goes for those throughout the industry that do it right but don't get the attention as such in this case too!
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
mikephotos
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 40):
Would it have been beneficial in this case had it been installed?

As I mentioned above, yes I believe it would have made a huge difference as it appears the wheels were on the ground as the aircraft left the end of the runway. Of course, the 'arrestor bed' would have had to be installed prior to the accident. The 'bed' has saved several aircraft at JFK...an Eagle Saab 340, Gemini MD-11 and the most recent Polar Air 747.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
Since these systems requires prepositioning it would not have been beneficial.

Starlion, that's the point to the system. It's installed at the end of the runway prior to the accident.

Mike
 
milan320
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 41):
Since these systems requires prepositioning it would not have been beneficial. Nobody (probably including the pilots) knew anything was going to go wrong until the wheels were on the ground.

Thanks for the info. I thought that perhaps there's a permanent solution that can be installed at the end of runways for such occurances.

Quoting STARalliance24 (Reply 24):
Anyone got ATC feeds??? I'm dieing to find some. ATClive has some stuff but I can't find anything with AF. I think they might have had to remove the AF part's since it goes quiet for a bit, quite often.

try the archies on: www.liveatc.net

French newspapers are now reporting that the co-pilot was flying the plane, and also was the last one to leave the AC ... apparently he also run up and down the aisles after everyone got off the plane to make sure no one was left behind. Anyway, whatever the cause, great professionalism on the part of the AF crew.

/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
mikephotos
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 44):
Thanks for the info. I thought that perhaps there's a permanent solution that can be installed at the end of runways for such occurances.

I think he was referring to foaming the runway which of course would require notice in advance that there is a problem. We are talking about the permanent installed bed which is totally different.

Mike
 
milan320
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:25 pm

RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:38 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 43):
As I mentioned above, yes I believe it would have made a huge difference as it appears the wheels were on the ground as the aircraft left the end of the runway. Of course, the 'arrestor bed' would have had to be installed prior to the accident. The 'bed' has saved several aircraft at JFK...an Eagle Saab 340, Gemini MD-11 and the most recent Polar Air 747.

So what prompted JFK to put in the permanent solution then?'
Wonder if it will take two such cases for the GTAA to finally decide on an extra safety measure.
And yeah, I was referring to a permanent insatlled bed and not the foam that sometimes is sprayed on the runway in emergency situations (i.e. gear doesn't come down and belly landing needs to be made)
/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:39 am

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 44):
Thanks for the info. I thought that perhaps there's a permanent solution that can be installed at the end of runways for such occurances.

Ok we are talking about different things.
- Foaming - requires advance warning.
- Overrun bed at end of runway - "always on".
- Net to catch aircraft (yes these do exist, and not only on carriers) - requires advance warning. You can't have it up all the time because of take offs, go arounds and so on.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PHLapproach
Posts: 1057
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RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:43 am

Dave (owner of liveatc.net) wants people to use these archives: http://dl.liveatc.net/CYYZ-Toronto-Aug-02-05-1530.mp3
http://dl.liveatc.net/CYYZ-Toronto-Aug-02-05-1600.mp3

Start about 20 mins into the 15:30 archive, and listen to the 16:00 from the start

The controller working Final for 24L told KLM691 that there was lighting activity to his 12 o'clock/ 1 o'clock and 5-6 miles. That was the position of AFR358 at the present time, I heard those archives last night and that was my assumption that the aircraft had to of been hit by lighting. That would explain why the lights went out when they were on final.
 
milan320
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:25 pm

RE: Air France A340 Off Runway In YYZ Pt.2

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 47):
Overrun bed at end of runway - "always on".

That's the one I'm talking about.
/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)

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