AirRyan
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Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:03 am

So what will the future hold for NWA - Boeing or Airbus?

The few remaining DC-10's and DC-9's will eventually need to be replaced. Since NWA has already bought A330 and A319's their replacements seen logically inevitable.

However, since we have seen NWA sign on with the 787 to perhaps replace and/or expand upon the 757 service, is it possible that NWA would ever consider the 777?

And with the 747's would NWA be leaning towards the 747ADV or will they even consider the A380? With the cargo ops, perhaps the 777 Freightor or a freightor version of the 747ADV?

Perhaps at this point it's just a matter of flipping a coin and to see which company offers NWA the best deal, but can it even accurately be hypothesized as to what aircraft types would better serve them?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:54 am

Well, we just ordered 18 787's with 50 options. That's quite a statement considering that we're still taking delivery of A330's. The 777 issue is a dead one as of the moment. I think that a 74A could be a distinct possiblilty when the 744's start showing their age. But we only have a few routes that require a 747's range and load capacity, DTW, MSP, LAX, And JFK-NRT. SEA-NRT, I think could use a 400 in the summer months with the heavy loads.
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gigneil
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:00 am

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
However, since we have seen NWA sign on with the 787 to perhaps replace and/or expand upon the 757 service, is it possible that NWA would ever consider the 777?

The 787 has absolutely nothing to do with the 757 for the most part. NW gets GREAT revenue from Japanese originating passengers at NRT, so they'll continue that whenever possible.

The 787 will help open new nonstop routes from the US.

N
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:15 am

Many people say that NW is becoming an Airbus-only operator, and the recent 787 order put that one to rest.

NW has always been, and will continue to be a large customer for both Airbus and Boeing. They simply choose the aircraft that best suits their needs both operationally and economically.
 
N766UA
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:24 am

Seems to me NW has never really leaned toward anybody. They've flown all kinds of Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus aircraft over the years. From the DC-6, DC-9, DC-10s to the 707, 757, 747 to the A319, A320, A330 they're pretty even.
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AirRyan
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:24 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
But we only have a few routes that require a 747's range and load capacity, DTW, MSP, LAX, And JFK-NRT. SEA-NRT, I think could use a 400 in the summer months with the heavy loads.

That is what I was thinking about in regards to the A380 - it's just too large for what NWA would prefer, so a 747ADV would be a logical replacement for they and possibly the freightors if they wouldn't want to add a 777F just for freightor duty which would make sense.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Well, we just ordered 18 787's with 50 options. That's quite a statement considering that we're still taking delivery of A330's.

I agree - I was expecting an A350 announcement more than that 787 order. I confused CO 10+options 787 order for NWA order, it's a good deal. Hopefully this threat of a strike won't hurt the bottom line too much at NWA even though things aren't looking good right now.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
The 787 has absolutely nothing to do with the 757 for the most part. NW gets GREAT revenue from Japanese originating passengers at NRT, so they'll continue that whenever possible.

Could be a good reason why NWA went with the 787 over the A350 being that a significant portion of the 787 will be coming from Japan.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:27 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 5):
I was expecting an A350 announcement more than that 787 order

So was everyone else. It is possible that we could divert some of our options other aircraft types, such as 747Adv or 777 in the future. I don't think I will ever close the door on the 777. I still think there is a slight chance we could order te airplane if Boeing pushed hard enough. They're on a roll with the 787 orders, a little $ shove could push us a long way, a very long way. That's what drove us to the Airbus.
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goboeing
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:43 pm

My prediction:

The 747-400s will go to NWA Cargo, the A-330s are gone after the DC-10s which will stay around a little longer for a round-the-world route, and 787s will replace all.

Nick
 
azjubilee
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:38 am

Yea, go boeing... the 189 seat 787 will replace the 243-298 seat airbusses! Riiiight... The 787s will complement the 744 and 330s in the international fleet.


AZJ
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:42 am

People talk about the replacement of NW 744 by A380s or B747ADV. First, considering how long they are keeping aircraft types, I would not count on replacement anytime soon. Second, what about B744 replacement by B773ER? That seems to be a logical move...
 
AirRyan
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting GLA MD11 (Reply 9):
First, considering how long they are keeping aircraft types, I would not count on replacement anytime soon. Second, what about B744 replacement by B773ER? That seems to be a logical move...

Point taken but NWA was a launch customer for the 744 and even took delivery of the first 744 to come off the line - if others are retiring and/or replacing their 744's than how could NWA not? (Miles, money?)
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:45 am

While some here at a.net think that airlines, as part of their business plan, have a goal to be all-Boeing or all-Airbus, nothing can be further from the truth. Airlines will pick the best aircraft for each particular mission - sometimes that aircraft will be manufactured by Boeing and other times it will be manufactured by Airbus. So many assumed that NW would automatically go with the A350 simply because it is an A330 customer - and look what happened, NW placed a large 787 order.

NW went with the A32X family for its narrow body needs since it was an ideal 72S/MD80 replacement, and over time, the A319 has gone on to replace many DC9-50s in the NW fleet. NW was an early customer for the A320 - NW liked the increased range and versatility that the type offered over the 737 2nd generation.

NW went with the A330 to replace the DC10-30 fleet since, in NW's opinion, the A333 was the ideal aircraft for transatlantic operations - NW itself stated that it went with the A333 since it felt that the 777 was too much airplane for transatlantic services. When NW converted some A333 orders to A332 orders and decided to use the A332 for transpacific services, things did get a bit confused as far as the mission of the A330 in the NW fleet (I still dont think that the A332 is a long term solution for transpacific routes, its simply too small), but the A332 is a very flexible and capable aircraft for which NW can find many roles for in its route network.

But, remember while all of this was going on, NW ordered additional 752s, selected the 753 as its DC10-40 replacement (and from what we hear, NW is sorry that it did not order more 753s as NW really likes the economics of this aircraft), NW continues to fly a large 747 fleet and has now ordered the 787 (with Trent engines - can you believe it?). If NW's financial situation was better, I think that NW would be signing up as a launch customer for the 747 Advanced (just as it was a launch customer for the 744) to replace its 747/744 fleets.........but that is simply not possible at the moment.

Airlines want and need both Boeing and Airbus to be in business and every airline world wide will continue to do business with both manufactures. Competition is necessary.
 
ORDagent
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:02 am

Welcome to my respected users list Dutchjet! That was one of the most well reasoned and balanced views on this kind of subject without being an A or B basher!

I would love to see an A380 with NW! I think the last livery would have been fantastic! Oh well, time will tell how they are going to do. NW is going to fly those 747-400s until they are antiques! Remember the DC-9/DC-10 fleets!
 
irelayer
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:14 am

It would be hilarious if NW retired their A330's before their 744's. Seriously. I think it could happen too.

-IR
 
AirplaneDork
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:34 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 8):
Yea, go boeing... the 189 seat 787 will replace the 243-298 seat airbusses!

We're talking about the 787, not the 737. The 787-8 and -9 will seat 223-259 passengers depending on configuration. The -3 (shorter-range version, which would probably used domestically for transcons) can seat up to 296 in Boeing's 2-class config.
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azjubilee
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:59 pm

Dork - my bad... I got my numbers confused. In the NWA configuration the 787 will seat 36 in WBC and 185 in Y class for a total of 221. My point still remains the same, they aren't replacing 243/298 seat 330s with the 221 seat 787. I repeat, the 787 will complement the 330s and 744s in the international fleet.


AZJ
 
keesje
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:22 am

NWA & UAL are the US-ASIA specialists, with NWA gaining lately.

Lets be realistic. If the ASIA market will grow at least 200% in the next 20 years as Boeing & Airbus think, something 30% larger then a 744 in the next decade is not a completely groundless gamble for NWA IMO.



Have to agree with earlier posts, NWA will buy what they need, irrespective who builds it.
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PADSpot
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 5):

Could be a good reason why NWA went with the 787 over the A350 being that a significant portion of the 787 will be coming from Japan.

Deplyoing an airplane on ex-Japan routes only because a significant share of parts originate from Japan? I don't see a connection there.

99,9% of airline customers either don't care or don't know in which type of airplane they are sitting; nor do they know how many parts of this specific airplane are produced by local companies ... .
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:49 am

About the only thing Northwest is leaning towards right now is bankruptcy.
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N1120A
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
The few remaining DC-10's and DC-9's will eventually need to be replaced

Few remaining DC-9s? Try around 100

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Since NWA has already bought A330 and A319's their replacements seen logically inevitable.

And just how many more A319s are they taking? Also, want to explain how a 130 seat plane replaces a 100 seat one

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
However, since we have seen NWA sign on with the 787 to perhaps replace



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
and/or expand upon the 757 service

The 787 is no 757 replacement. They have completely different missions

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
is it possible that NWA would ever consider the 777?

No, it is too heavy or too small, depending on what they need

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Seems to me NW has never really leaned toward anybody. They've flown all kinds of Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus aircraft over the years. From the DC-6, DC-9, DC-10s to the 707, 757, 747 to the A319, A320, A330 they're pretty even.

They do, however, lean Pratt

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 10):
if others are retiring and/or replacing their 744's than how could NWA not?

Last I checked, there has not been a single 744 WFU for scrapping

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
NW itself stated that it went with the A333 since it felt that the 777 was too much airplane for transatlantic services.

Correction. It is too much airplane for NW's transatlantic services, not transatlantic services in general
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Udo
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:16 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Few remaining DC-9s? Try around 100

By mid-July there were 99 DC-9-30, 12 DC-9-40 and 32 DC-9-50 in operation, for a total of 143. Their fuel bills must hurt...


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Udo
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ejmmsu
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 20):
By mid-July there were 99 DC-9-30, 12 DC-9-40 and 32 DC-9-50 in operation, for a total of 143. Their fuel bills must hurt...

I was told that the DC-9-50 (wich virtually identical capacity to an A319) has better economics on short stage lengths than the A319.

Of course, the A319 has better range.
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N1120A
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:22 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 20):
By mid-July there were 99 DC-9-30, 12 DC-9-40 and 32 DC-9-50 in operation, for a total of 143. Their fuel bills must hurt...

Thanks for the count Udo and no the bills don't hurt. The DC-9 is still competitively efficient, particularly considering their fully amortized status.
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beauing
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
The 787 is no 757 replacement. They have completely different missions

The 787-300 has a similar range to the 757, however it carries mor pax.
 
Udo
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:23 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 21):
I was told that the DC-9-50 (wich virtually identical capacity to an A319) has better economics on short stage lengths than the A319.

That's hard to believe. Do you have any further info?


Regards
Udo
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N1120A
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:34 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 23):
The 787-300 has a similar range to the 757, however it carries mor pax.

Like I said, different missions. The 783 will rarely be used in the same range mission as the 757 either, flying shorter segments that have high passenger and cargo loads.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 21):
I was told that the DC-9-50 (wich virtually identical capacity to an A319) has better economics on short stage lengths than the A319.

That's hard to believe. Do you have any further info?

I am sure you could ask NW about the specifics, but the DC-9-50 is significantly lighter than the A319 as well as engines that have never been particularly thirsty.
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lat41
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:44 am

It's over now, but if only NW had rescued the 717 line to use as their smallest main line aircraft, it would have made me very happy and maybe would have been the genesis for the -300 model.
 
beauing
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
The 783 will rarely be used in the same range mission as the 757 either, flying shorter segments that have high passenger and cargo loads.

WHAT?
Could you say that in English?
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
That's hard to believe. Do you have any further info?

Unfortunately, no.

I was hoping someone on here could confirm/deny the claim.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
thelowfarehero
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:57 am

A NW 737-700 with winglets in the new colors...that one be one sharp lookin bird!
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dutchjet
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):

Correction. It is too much airplane for NW's transatlantic services, not transatlantic services in general

Yes, NW's transatlantic services, I was talking about NW since this thread is about NW, not any other carrier.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):



Like I said, different missions. The 783 will rarely be used in the same range mission as the 757 either, flying shorter segments that have high passenger and cargo loads.



Quoting Beauing (Reply 27):

WHAT?
Could you say that in English?

I think that the meaning is that the 757 tends to fly lots of medium range routes - its typical missions are 1000-3000 mile segments. The 783 will be a niche airliner and the airlines that will order it have highdensity short haul routes in mind for the aircraft, say lots of short routes up to about 1000-1500 miles (think: Japan domestic service for example). Thus, the 788 (which most airlines will select for versatility) will not really replace the 757 since it is far longer range airliner and the 783 will be used on different missions than those to which the 757 are generally assigned.

Although Boeing at times spins the 787 as a replcement for the both the 767 and 757, its really not the case (except for possibly the 753 and even that is a strech)....the 757 will more typically be replaced by aircraft like the 739/739ER (I know that those aircraft do not have the range of the 757, but they can fly most routes to which the 757 is assigned) and the larger variants of Boeing's successor to the 737NG family.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):

I am sure you could ask NW about the specifics, but the DC-9-50 is significantly lighter than the A319 as well as engines that have never been particularly thirsty.

True, the DC9-50 was an extremely effecient aircraft for its time, and can still hold its own as far as operating economics.....while the A319 is a very versatile aircraft, the price for that increased versatility and range is more weight. On shorter segments, the DC9-50 still delivers acceptable economics, even in this era of $60/bbl oil. NW flies lots of short frequent routes from its three hubs, many of these segments are still flown by the DC9 family....there are still over 100 DC9s in the NW fleet to be replaced over time, and the A319 is not a complete answer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:44 am

To add on to the previous post, the A319/A320 beats out the DC-9 on the longer flights. Hence why as NW has taken on more A319's, they have pulled the DC-9's from their longer flights. For example, NW used to fly a lot of DC-9's on DTW-Florida runs, and MSP-East Coast. These flights are around 1,000 miles. The A319 is a far more economical aircraft for this type of route due the decreased fuel burn. However, you do not see the difference on a route like DTW-FNT/MBS/LAN/GRR, etc, which are all in the range of 50-150 miles. While NW does have a few short hops on the A319/A320 (mostly for repositioning or bridging to another hub), the DC-9 is the aircraft of choice due to the better economics and the fact that NW can use the A319/A320 range to the full potential elsewhere. Continuing to operate the DC-9's in currently the most economical choice for NW, the overall costs make it more worthwhile that the costs associated with obtaining new aircraft.

Also, why does everything think the 744's are that old?????? Seriously, the first ones came online 15 years ago. NW took delivery of its newest 2 744's in 2002. They will be around for a long time. Remember, they fly long-hauls, therefore have an extremely low number of cycles for their age. Long-haul aircraft last longer that short hauls due to the number of cycles.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
A332 for transpacific services, things did get a bit confused as far as the mission of the A330 in the NW fleet (I still dont think that the A332 is a long term solution for transpacific routes, its simply too small), but the A332 is a very flexible and capable aircraft for which NW can find many roles for in its route network

If NW thought the A332 was too small, I don't think they would be buying 788s. No doubt some of them will end up on transpacific services.
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fpofllflyboi
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:41 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Seems to me NW has never really leaned toward anybody. They've flown all kinds of Douglas, Boeing, and Airbus aircraft over the years. From the DC-6, DC-9, DC-10s to the 707, 757, 747 to the A319, A320, A330 they're pretty even.

I agree with you on that. They just want the right aircraft to get the job done economically.

Just my 2 cents
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 32):

If NW thought the A332 was too small, I don't think they would be buying 788s. No doubt some of them will end up on transpacific services.

Point taken - I can certainly see the 788 flying transpacific routes like MSP-OSA or DTW-HKG or the like.....the 788 will allow NW the possibility of opening new thin routes and make a profit. That is a bit different than flying an A332 from SFO to Tokyo (a NW hub) - a route that NW flew with a 747 for years and a route that is dominated by far larger aircraft operated by competing airlines. Simply my opinion.
 
beauing
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RE: Will NWA Ever Lean Towards Boeing Again?

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 34):
the 788 will allow NW the possibility of opening new thin routes and make a profit. That is a bit different than flying an A332 from SFO to Tokyo (a NW hub) - a route that NW flew with a 747 for years and a route that is dominated by far larger aircraft operated by competing airlines.

Didn't NW initiate service from SEA, PDX, in addition to SFO when they introduced the A330? This validates Boeing's idea of smaller planes flying thinner routes. One can be just as comfortable in an A330 compared to a 747. It's all in how you configure it.

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