OHLHD
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Question To The A.net F/A

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:01 pm

With the accident of the AF 343 still in mind, I have the following question to F/A and pilots and all others as well.

What would happen if in such a situation a F/A or pilot chooses to save his/her own life and runs from the aircraft to a safe place.
As F/A are humans this actually would be a natural reaction.

What ever happens than, would this F/A or could be a pilot as well, be in any kind liable for deaths, injuries or damages?

THKS in adv
 
mtnmanmakalu
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:29 pm

As an F/A, we are trained to evacuate the A/C as long as it is possibly safe. We use the phrase "when in doubt, get out" which I guess could be interpreted different ways by different F/A's as every emergency situation is different.

I highly doubt an F/A could be held responsible for PAX deaths if they did all they could before endangering their own lives... The pilots' I'm not sure about as they are responsible for the A/C.

In the Air France A340 crash, I would say (from all that I have read and seen) that the F/A's performed exactly as trained for an unexpected emergency. You always dread it, but if it happens, they say all your training kicks in instantly and automatically..
I hope this helps you some..

mtnman
I do, I don't, whatever.......
 
AlanUK
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:16 pm

BA used to have a very strict policy of:
"you will be the last one off the aircraft in an evacution, after all pax have gone, after you've checked your area for people/colleagues, and after you have done your best to help wheelchairs/special need pax off the plane. Oh and don't forget to take your SEP equipment with you!".

This was about 6 years ago, when I joined the airline.

Since then, things have been made a bit more realistic and the policy now is:
"save as many as you can, but DON'T DIE A HERO. If the situation is clearly catastrophic and you are in immediate danger, get out".

Best,
Alan.
 
BCAL
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:35 pm

BA's very strict policy almost goes to the point of stating, "Your life is not important, that of the passengers is"! I am glad they have since been more realistic.

However, reverting to the original question raised by OHDLD, what if a F/A in a panic suddenly decides to save his/her own life and jumps off the plane leaving the passengers to fend for themselves? I know that he/she would probably never be able to work for an airline again, but could his employers or relatives of the dead commence litigation against him/her for failing in his/her duties?

It was mentioned in another thread yesterday, about the AF crew in YYZ, that a few years ago an African airliner crashed and caught fire when landing at an African airport and the F/As on that flight were the first to jump and run away. By chance, AF F/As were near the scene and despite neither being involved in the accident or concerned about their own safety, they went to help the passengers. It is also well known that on-duty BA F/As assisted passengers from the crashed LH 747 at Nairobi in November 1974.

Of course, possibly the most famous escapade was in the case of Bruce Ismay, Chairman of the White Star Line, who jumped into a lifeboat when the Titanic was sinking, despite the "woman and children first" policy and many women and children remaining on the sinking liner. Ismay was heavily criticised by the Boards of Inquiry, but no litigation was ever started against him.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
OHLHD
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:39 am

Thks to all of you.

I was thinking about it on my last flight (2 days ago) and asked a F/A what she would do. She was honest and said that she didn´t know. Of course she added to help were possible but she also said that shje would not die as a hero.

THKS again
 
qqflyboy
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:21 am

At AA it's "If the fire is too hot, the smoke is too thick or the water is too high, get out!

Simple and easy to remember.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
gipper913
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:58 am

As far as liability, in the states, it would be the airline that is liable (after all, is who you would sue since they would have deeper pockets than the average FA or pilot) under the principle of respondeat superior (the company is responsible for the actions of it's employees if the employees were acting in the scope of their employment).

However, to show negligence you would have to prove, among other things, that the FA (let's say FA for this example) did not act in a manner that a reasonable FA would act in the same or similar circumstances. This could be a difficult issue to prove, but your thoughts are not unreasonable. Certainly, cases could have been brought in circumstances like the example above of the African Airliner. Certainly cases could be made by anyone injured or killed in such an incident against that airline for the negligent acts of the employees.

Hope that helps and wasn't too much legal-ese!

-Gipper913, Attorney-at-Law
Disclaimer: the above is general discussion about tort law, an is not intended nor should it be taken as legal advice.

[Edited 2005-08-05 22:00:54]
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
OHLHD
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:52 am

How about the liability of the FlightCrew. The Captain is the person in charge during the flight. Can he be held liable?
 
gipper913
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:05 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 7):
The Captain is the person in charge during the flight. Can he be held liable?

Certainly. But, again....if he did not act like the reasonable pilot in same or similar circumstances. And, if he breached that standard, one would sue him as a matter of procedure, but only to be able to sue the airline that employed him, as that's where the real money (and, one could argue responsibility) is. Again, it is the principle of respondeat superior. It is the responsibility of the employer to hire non-negligent pilots, so they bear the burden of hiring negligent ones.

The most telling case to illustrate respondeat superior is one that happened a couple decades ago here in the US. A pizza delivery man was speeding to his next delivery and caused an auto accident. The victims in the other car sued the pizza delivery guy but also the pizza chain that employed him. Since he was acting in the scope of his employment AND was acting negligently (not to mention criminally by speeding, reckless driving), the pizza chain was held liable.

Make sense?

Please note, all of the above refers to US law. I am unclear as to the tort laws in the EU countries, etc. Canada is quite similar to the US.
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
OHLHD
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:43 am

Thanks very much for the answers. As I am going on OS to ZRH on Monady, maybe I will have a minute or two to talk to hte Captain or Purser. Probably they know something about the situation under EU -Regs.

I will post it than here.
 
flflyguy
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:55 am

I think it is something that we all wonder....how we would react in an emergency. American's findings are that in such a situation, the F/A's training just sort of "kicks in" and we do what we are supposed to do. I am not aware of any circumstance where an F/A "bailed" before getting as many passengers out as possible. Remember, we go through recurrent training every year. Evacuating an airplane is something most of us could nearly do in our sleep...the commands, etc., are just automatic.

Interesting question!
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
 
gipper913
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 10):
American's findings are that in such a situation, the F/A's training just sort of "kicks in" and we do what we are supposed to do

Yes, I couldn't imagine an AA F/A acting like the African airliner's F/As in the example earlier in the thread. Y'all at AA tend to be an extremely professional group. And, it appears the AF crew on the Toronto A343 were similarly well-trained and professional.

An anecdote: I had a flight on an AA L1011 years ago where the gear down indicator was broken, we had to a flyby, tower couldn't tell if the gear in question was down or not (dark night), so we prepared for an emergency landing. The F/As were superb in calming a couple of people down from hysterics and did an excellent job with the overall situation (including dealing with me and my sense of humor as I looked out the window for the whole landing rather than in braced position and told the F/A "Hey, if this goes badly and this is how I am checking out permanently...well, shucks, I am sure as hell gonna watch it happen!" The F/A smiled, nodded appreciatively as a few nearby pax laughed and we broke the tension. That said, if things had gone wrong, and there was a fire, etc I had no doubt that FA would do everything she could to evacuate everyone safely.
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan
 
wukka
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:08 pm

Hypothetical situation:

If you're a passenger in an emergency situation, and were looking at a crew member's ass going down the slide in front of you, how would you feel / what would you do afterwards?

Just curious.
We can agree to disagree.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:53 pm

I would not feel good actually, if she/he jumps out before me. If she stands at the aircraft and helps pax than it is ok, of course.

Majors like AA or AF have for sure a perfect training.

I always feel comftable if I see at least one older expierienced F/A.

I try to avoid airlines where I know taht the level of training is not taken so seriously as I expect it to be. For Exam: FlyNiki: Fiends have reported that the age of the oldest FA was not more than 22!!!
What can I expect in an emergency from them???

Its just my opinion.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:40 pm

As an FA, it makes you think that this could happen anywhere at any given time. Reminds you to focus on your 30 second review while taking off or landing. Put the magazine or newspaper down and do the silent review.
Made from jets!
 
Stjuard
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:08 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 13):
I always feel comftable if I see at least one older expierienced F/A.

I must say I agree! I am a F/A and I talked to my friends who finished training with me and we agreed that even we feel more secure when there is older and experienced F/A.
Slides armed, crosscheck done.
 
speedbirdcrew
Posts: 182
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:40 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 13):
I try to avoid airlines where I know that the level of training is not taken so seriously as I expect it to be. For Exam: FlyNiki: Fiends have reported that the age of the oldest FA was not more than 22!!!
What can I expect in an emergency from them???



Quoting Stjuard (Reply 15):
I must say I agree! I am a F/A and I talked to my friends who finished training with me and we agreed that even we feel more secure when there is older and experienced F/A.

Guhh. Surely all cabin crew are trained to the same standard which their company sets out on initial training and recurrent, so the age of the crew shouldn't come into it surely?

Yeah I'm 22 so what doesn't mean I wouldn't do my job professionally or would forget about the safety of those on board. On my training course the ages ranged from 19 to 38 and we all passed the same exams all to the same standard and I'm sure all of us could probably carry out an evacuation in our sleep we practiced it that much!

Also donate forget that although you may see a more 'mature' member of crew on board don't mean they are in charge of the cabin crew the 25 year old you see might well be the purser/sccm.
 
MEA-707
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:41 pm

a textbook case was the VARIG accident near Paris in 1973. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19730711-0. 10 of 17 crew survived, and only 1 of 117 passengers. OK the survival rate of the crew (fit, more aware) is usually a bit higher then that of the passengers but these pure numbers of course made everyone suspective. The crew jumped out from the burning aircraft without bothering for the passengers, even that single passenger was saved by the firemen minutes later. Photos were published worldwide of the surviving crew holding their tax free bags. I can imagine you don't want to die as hero but I am sure, I actually hope, this unhelpful cabin crew didn't have it easy about this.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
WindowSeat
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:50 pm

Quoting Speedbirdcrew (Reply 16):
Yeah I'm 22 so what doesn't mean I wouldn't do my job professionally or would forget about the safety of those on board.

Agreed. Although I am in no position like yours, but I know I am VERY young for the position that I am in and constantly face the struggle where I have to convince people that I can do my job just as well as anyone else 20 yrs older than I am can.

But getting back to the original topic, while I feel the F/As are there to ensure the safety of passengers, I realise that they are humans themselves and will do everything possible to save their own lives when/if it comes to it. Best course of action on any flight is to review the safety procedures yourself and plan a course of action towards your nearest exit and out of it without the help of cabin crew.

cheers
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:59 pm

BCAL (Reply#3),

I related this (true) story in another treat

It happened to a UTA crew AF) in DLA (Cameroon), in 1984.
They were on the tarmac, going to their plane to prepare for a flight back to CDG.
There was a Boeing 737, departing at the same time.
While taxiing, one of the engines burst and debris punctured the wing and fuel tank, causing a fire.
The doors were opened quickly but the first to jump on the slides and escape were ... the Crew !
The UTA Crew ran toward the plane to organize and help the PAX's evacuation while the entire plane's crew was running away.
2 of the PAX died and 2 UTA's F/A were injured.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting Gipper913 (Reply 11):
An anecdote: I had a flight on an AA L1011 years ago where the gear down indicator was broken, we had to a flyby, tower couldn't tell if the gear in question was down or not (dark night), so we prepared for an emergency landing.

How very odd; you do realise of course that AA never actually flew L1011s.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:04 pm

Quoting Speedbirdcrew (Reply 16):
Yeah I'm 22 so what doesn't mean I wouldn't do my job professionally or would forget about the safety of those on board.

No of course not. This was not meant to bash any young crew on board. For sure I cannot judge somebodys attitude by his/her age.


Let´s see on monday, as I said I will be on OS and will try to have a quick chat with some F/A´s.
 
airplaneboy
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:44 am

I'm 22. You have to be at least 21 years of age at my carrier to be an FA. While in training, we had classmates range in age from 21 to early 60's. The oldest person in our class had never been an FA before. When you fly as a passenger, you never know...the younger folks might just be more senior in terms of experience and company seniority than those who are older. You can't just assume that because they are older that they are more experienced, at least not here in the U.S. Many people retire from other professions in their 40's, 50's, and 60's and pursue their "life long dreams" of becoming FA's. And as there's no age limit here in the U.S., you may have an "older" FA on board, but they may be brand new to the job.

Cheers!
 
FutureFO
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:14 am

Here is the thing that most people don't always take in to account. At a small regional airline that operates 50 seats or less we are the only flight attendant onboard. We do go thru intense drills and evecs to know what to do. However these are all perfect world incidents, not the emergency no time to breathe type emergencies that are sometimes faced out there. We are required to in our review give ourselves situations and have a resolution to the situations. It all is like riding a bike. But the way we are trained, the FO is the first one out to assist all passengers, once the passengers that are visible are out, we make a sweep of the cabin, checking the lav, grab any emergency equipment that is safe to do so, the ncheck the captain and then get out. The captain unfortunately, like is always said, goes down with the ship, he is last to exit the aircraft.



Sean from MCO and MKE
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
Stjuard
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:58 am

Ok, misunderstanding. In the airline I worked for older F/As are also flying very long as we have age restriction in order to enter training (18-25)... So when you see an older F/A (purser or second purser) it means he/she is flying longer. That's what I wanted to say. Older meaning more experienced, sorry. I didn't mean that older must be better than us young ones.
Slides armed, crosscheck done.
 
airplaneboy
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:34 am

Stjuard-

No apologies needed.  Smile I understand what you mean. I too, feel safer and more confident when I'm flying with someone who is much more experienced than I am. I'm sure we can all learn a lot from those who've been flying for many years.

Cheers and fly safe!

AirplaneBoy
 
aa757first
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:06 pm

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 10):
I am not aware of any circumstance where an F/A "bailed" before getting as many passengers out as possible.

Didn't the famous Singapore Girls evacuate themselves after that SQ accident?

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 13):

I try to avoid airlines where I know taht the level of training is not taken so seriously as I expect it to be. For Exam: FlyNiki: Fiends have reported that the age of the oldest FA was not more than 22!!!
What can I expect in an emergency from them???

Sometimes I look at the 65 year old flight attendant hobbling along the airport, rubbing her knees and wonder "Who is going to be evacuating who here?"

AAndrew
 
gipper913
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RE: Question To The A.net F/A

Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:55 am

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 20):
How very odd; you do realise of course that AA never actually flew L1011s

You are absolutely correct. It was a DC-10. My bad. Remembered it was a tri-jet, and misremembered that AA flew DC-10s, not L-1011s. It was a long time ago!
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. --R. Reagan

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