jayspilot
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Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:44 pm

United has run into a problem of finding a replacement airplane for the Air Wisconsin BAE-146 that currently operates on the Ultra-high yield route. United has shown air willy the door after next april and the only other plane that can do the ASE market is a DHC-8, 30 seat prop and they can only do it when the weather is good VFR. In response, United has come back to Willy and asked them to operate a wopping fleet of 4 ageing 146's for 5 yrs into ase. It will be intersting what rates Air willy is willing to operate a fleet that small.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:53 pm

Rumor was that Air Whisky wouldn't consider it unless United wanted to operate at a minimum of 10 146's. They said anything fewer was completely uneconomical for them.

If they don't come to an agreement, they will basically hand the market over to NW who operates the Avro RJ-85 operated by Mesaba into ASE. XJ is even operating service this summer on MSP-ASE.
 
quickmover
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:04 pm

Couldn't they use a 737 with a light fuel load?
 
SegmentKing
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:04 pm

United's efforts to go "cheap" will only cost them in the long run.
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
airbazar
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:30 pm

But how high yield is Aspen really? I'd think that if it was that good, you're see more airlines flying into there and that's not the case. Most of the rich people who fly into Aspen do it on private aircraft, not regularly schedulled flights.

Right now, on Expedia, I can buy a 1st Class ticket from BOS for this weekend (leaving today and returning on Monday), for $1200. I can also buy an economy ticket for only $373 on UA with 2 week's advanced purchase. That's dirt cheap.
 
commavia
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
But how high yield is Aspen really? I'd think that if it was that good, you're see more airlines flying into there and that's not the case.

ASE is very high-yield. The reason that only two airlines fly there is because it is a relatively inaccessible airport. ARJs are the only jets that can land there, and only NW and UA have access to those planes in the U.S., and the Bombardiers can also land there, but don't have the range to fly really anywhere but within the Rocky Mountain region.
 
jdaniel001
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:41 pm

Doesn't AA and DL both fly there.....duh...they do. I think? UA should use the 757 P.S. version....that will get the people paying those high fares to ASE.
We Are UNITED!
 
BNAflyer78
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:44 pm

DL flies to EGE near Vail......and they used to go into GUC seasonally, as well as HDN. Not ASE AFAIK.
Long live the Widget!
 
jayspilot
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:54 pm

Ase is a tricky airport. THE crj or erj can not do it while carrying any decient load and get killed doing the single engine things. The only 2 operators of the 146 family in the US are air willy and mesaba. the reason they dominate the market is b/c an engine failure on a 4 engine jet is no factor. Rumors were that the new CRJ-705 or the EMB-175 would have the balls to do it but I dont' think they do.
Corporate jets go in and out of ASE all winter long but dont have the same requirements at the 121 airlines do. plus the air wisconsin, (not sure about mesaba) have much much lower mins do to their expertise and experience in the terrain. Crews have to get special ase qualified doing 4 rides up and down the hill with feds.

as for the ticket prices. ZW's 146's dont have first class. just 86-100 coach seats and its also the middle of the summer, try pricing them x-mas week.. mesaba operates first class AVro's with 16 first class seats and only 68 total to stay below the nwa scope limits, not b/c they want to but b/c they have to.

THis is for ase specifically, not hdn or any other airport.
 
jayspilot
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:00 am

i did a search myself and found xmas week tickets from nyc to ase for 1000 dollars each. I would say thats pretty high yield for a us domestic flt.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:06 am

Sounds like the Q400 might come in handy here, and I wonder if this could be an opportunity for Horizon if UA ends up dropping out of the market due to lack of suitable aircraft. I assume the Q400 could handle the approach to ASE, and QX seems to have had success with its LAX-SUN flights, which are similar in distance, serve a similar demographic, and present similar operational challenges. Thoughts?
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
jayspilot
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:15 am

people want a jet, not me in particular, but rich folks. they want a jetway and jet engines on the wings. i think the Q400 falls in the same boat as the CRJ-705 though
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 11):
people want a jet, not me in particular, but rich folks. they want a jetway and jet engines on the wings.

You may be right. Although once people give the Q400 a try, I think they find it's surprisingly jet-like...and besides, it hasn't deterred the Sun Valley crowd, which isn't exactly riffraff either...
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
commavia
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:26 am

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 6):
Doesn't AA and DL both fly there.....duh...they do. I think?

AA, DL, and every other airline except UA and NW fly into EGE (UA and NW both also fly to EGE, in addition to ASE). EGE is Eagle County Airport, in Vail, which is the closest 'big' airport to Aspen. At EGE, AA heavily dominates and has for years, but UA and CO both also have a large presence.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:30 am

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 6):
Doesn't AA and DL both fly there.....duh...they do. I think? UA should use the 757 P.S. version....that will get the people paying those high fares to ASE.

No, AA and DL do not fly into ASE, they don't have the equipment suitable, and there's no way a 757 could safely drop into the valley.

Quoting BNAflyer78 (Reply 7):
DL flies to EGE near Vail......and they used to go into GUC seasonally, as well as HDN. Not ASE AFAIK.

DL still goes into GUC with 757 every winter, not sure about HDN but I think they still fly MD-88 in there.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
saab2000
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:30 am

I would like to see UA keep Air Wisconsin, and for more than just the ASE flights. It works for both parties so why are they trying to separate??????

The posting about UA trying to keep it cheap is already costing them. Dropping AWAC is a HUGE mistake. Not that we are the best or anything (though statistically we are better than most other UAX carriers most of the time) but does anyone really think that spending a dollar to save a dime is the way to do it?

I wish cooler heads would prevail and that UAL and AWAC could get an agreement based on common sense!!! They work well together and have done so for years.

Regarding the main question here, the 146/Avro is the only jet that can make it out after losing an engine.

757s and 737s maybe could empty, but they are twins. The 146 platform is ideal for this type of flight and AWAC has years of experience making it in and out of this tricky field.

Yes, it is very high yield and it would make good business sense for UAL to keep AWAC doing at least this. But business sense seems to not rule the roost in this industry too often.
smrtrthnu
 
jayspilot
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:25 am

the short reason that united dumped awac has nothing to do with the 146 and everything to do with the crj200. united actually deserves some credit for realizing that the 50 seat rj is not practical. They found a loop hole in their contract with zw which allowed them to dump their 50 seaters and aquire larger 3 class cabin crj and erj's for probably the same cost. On paper it was a win win, but in real life they screwed a lot of regional employees and their families. Guess it helps to show the majors don't give a crap about them now.
 
gigneil
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:53 am

More people could fly in with props if they wanted... DCI could fly in with an ATR from SLC if they were so inclined, America West also serves with a DHC8 from PHX at least and sometimes LAS.

UA is going to just have to stick it out with Mesa, and I hope AWAC gives them the finger on the 146 fleet.

N
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 17):
UA is going to just have to stick it out with Mesa, and I hope AWAC gives them the finger on the 146 fleet.

ZW should see if UA would rather purchase the 146 fleet.. for original selling price.. otherwise, ZW should wipe their hands clean of that problem...
Aiming High and going far..
 
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United787
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:10 am

Why won't the CRJ work? I flew a NW CRJ from Memphis to ASE a couple of years ago. UA doesn't fly very far from ASE anyway, most of the flights got to DIA.

[Edited 2005-08-05 19:13:16]
 
airbazar
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 9):
i did a search myself and found xmas week tickets from nyc to ase for 1000 dollars each. I would say thats pretty high yield for a us domestic flt.

Yes, maintaining a route with 4 aircraft for only 2 weeks of high yield traffic a year is nearly as good an idea as buying an A380 fleet for the Summer Olympics  Smile
 
apodino
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 16):
the short reason that united dumped awac has nothing to do with the 146 and everything to do with the crj200. united actually deserves some credit for realizing that the 50 seat rj is not practical. They found a loop hole in their contract with zw which allowed them to dump their 50 seaters and aquire larger 3 class cabin crj and erj's for probably the same cost. On paper it was a win win, but in real life they screwed a lot of regional employees and their families. Guess it helps to show the majors don't give a crap about them now.

First of all thats not true. Only 30 of the 70 jets were replaced with the 70 seaters, the ones with Skywest and GoJets. The 40 planes that Mesa is operating are still going to be 50 seaters. And the 146 had a lot to do with AWAC. The 146 pilots are among the highest paid in the regional industry, in many cases these guys are paid more than Mainline captains. And because AWAC wasn't growing, you had captains who were moving up the pay scale. The new airlines bid on incremental growth, which means new and cheap captains constantly coming through. Thats where the savings is realized and thats why AWAC was told to pack sand.

United from what I understand tried to get other regionals to start flying the 146 for them for ASE. Mesa, Skywest, Chautaqua all told United to pack sand. Also remember that AWAC has approaches and procedures in ASE unique to AWAC that no other airline enjoys, and unlike Mesa, they can serve ASE at night.

AWAC nearly got Frontier to agree to put 146's with them so AWAC could fly the ASE route under the Frontier flag. They said no, but can you imagine what United would have said about that?
 
gigneil
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
I flew a NW CRJ from Memphis to ASE a couple of years ago.

No sir, you didn't.  Smile

N
 
hjulicher
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:16 am

America West also flies into ASE. I know that a 737 does have the capabilities of flying into ASE from DEN, because sometimes UA does use them (rarely) but otherwise, it's a very difficult approach. Aspen might be expensive but that doesn't mean ordinary people don't go there. During the summer, students from all over the world go to Aspen to work? How do they get there, there is the music school of aspen and various other events that attract people, and not only the rich and wealthy. I'm not saying it's not expensive to go there, but it's affordable enough, even in the winter. Eating is the hardest part about aspen. You won't find a meal less than $20 except for the McDonalds there.
LH 442
 
quickmover
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:23 am

I think Frontier could make a killing at ASE, even with props. Perhaps horizon would lease out a couple.
 
apodino
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:25 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
Why won't the CRJ work? I flew a NW CRJ from Memphis to ASE a couple of years ago. UA doesn't fly very far from ASE anyway, most of the flights got to DIA.

For a very good reason, ASE is located in a valley, that is surrounded by high terrain on three sides, with one funnel into and out of the airport. Due to this, this requires an airplane with good climb performance to get above the terrain quickly, and an airplane that maneuvers at low speeds to avoid terrain. The CRJ is none of these. The CRJ is not an airplane that maneuvers well at low speeds, in fact you can't even do normal circling approaches in the aircraft without high minimums. And the fact for performance functions you have to assume an engine failure, means that you would have to be able to continue the climb on one engine. As good as the GE's on the CRJ are, they aren't that good. Where as the 146 can still climb well on three engines, and I have actually seen three engine ferries out of ASE before.

That having been said there is one other Jet airplane I think that could do ASE. The DO-328, and I think there is a surplus of those on the Market. Heck, Skyway wants more flying, and after being screwed by DL, this might be an option.
 
hjulicher
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:39 am

I have absolutely no idea about the technical aspects of aircraft, hence I am asking this question. Would an AN-148-100 be able to take off from ASE. I know it only has two engines, it just looks like a more powerful plane than an embraer jet. (It probably burns much more fuel too).

For some specifications you can go to: http://www.ifc-leasing.com/en/an-148.php
LH 442
 
AirWest
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:41 am

The runway at ASE is also only 100 ft wide, another reason why there isn't mainline service there.
"And now I wish I was somewhere other than here"- JB
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:51 am

A lot of people are confusing EGE & ASE. EGE is a walk in the park compared to ASE.

ASE is unique due its elevation, runway length, width, surrounding terrain, approaches, departures, weather, and noise.

That said, without getting into debate, the only practical passenger jet aircraft that can fly in there are the 146 & Avro. In terms of props, yes United has been sending in a mix of Mesa Dash-8's on certain frequencies. However, there has a huge protest and a lot of bad press written in the local Aspen papers about United flying props into ASE. Yes, the people there were quite upset at this treatment, despite how irrational it may seem to us.
 
quickmover
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:53 am

Interesting that on the Aspen airport website, there is a link titled "fear of flying".
http://www.aspenairport.com/index.asp?topmenu=geninfo

Any storys?
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:03 am

Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 16):
the short reason that united dumped awac has nothing to do with the 146 and everything to do with the crj200.

So that's why Mesa and Skywest still fly tons of 50 seaters out of DEN every day?

Quoting AirWest (Reply 27):
The runway at ASE is also only 100 ft wide, another reason why there isn't mainline service there.

A little lean, yes, but not so thin that mainline can't use it. The only thing prohibiting mainline at ASE is, as has been said, the terrain.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 28):
A lot of people are confusing EGE & ASE. EGE is a walk in the park compared to ASE.

Not so much, as before the wheels come up on the 757's they're already in a 35 degree bank and 15 degree climb so as not to hit the mountain that just happens to be in the way.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:23 am

One advantage that AWAC inherited from Aspen Airways was the TACAN approach and night operations authority/approval (Rocky Mountain Airways also had it's own approach system (a microwave approach) and also had night authority; RMA became part of Continental Express/ExpressJet). IIRC, Mesaba does not have night authority. So, UAL trash-canning AWAC will cost them the advantage they had in the ASE market, unless another operator gets night authority (and that will be difficult, at best).
Again, IIRC, the VOR approach is authorized only during the day (there are no long (daylight) days during the ski season) and has high minimums. In other words, it's value isn't equal to a similar approach at a flat land airport.
ASE is a problematic airport, and experience with the local conditions can be critical. The AWAC BAe 146 pilots were well paid (for that experience) and well worth it (just look at their safety record).
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
quickmover
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:32 am

Doesn't Midwest Express have some avros that they were banking on using for Delta? I think the Delta deal fell through.
 
artsyman
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:39 am

Couldn't UAL just negotiate a deal with Air Whisky and then just reneg on the deal later when it comes to paying the bill.

don't bother telling me that it wouldn't be fair as they already did it to all their employees, airports, lessors, pension holders and more or less everyone else.

J
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:40 am

Not only would it not be fair, it probably also wouldn't be legal. Also, if I was AirWhiskey and they tried to reneg a deal on me like that, I wouldn't go for it, I'd make them pay up.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
texan
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:14 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 2):
Couldn't they use a 737 with a light fuel load?



Quoting Airbazar (Reply 4):
But how high yield is Aspen really? I'd think that if it was that good, you're see more airlines flying into there and that's not the case.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
ARJs are the only jets that can land there, and only NW and UA have access to those planes in the U.S., and the Bombardiers can also land there, but don't have the range to fly really anywhere but within the Rocky Mountain region.

737s cannot use ASE, but ARJs are also not the only jets that can land there. Planes at ASE are limited to a 95' wingspan, which would allow a 717, which has a wingspan of 93' 3", to land there, though because of runway restrictions it most likely would not be profitable to operate (7006' x 100' altitude of 7820'). The CRJs and ERJs could operate out of ASE, but because their short field performance is not nearly as good as the Avro, it will be much more difficult for airlines to operate those planes.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
saab2000
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:50 am

AFAIK, the CRJ and ERJ cannot operate ASE because of the single-engine go-around or single-engine balked landing.

Simple as that. Just being able to take off from a 7000 runway does not mean that the CRJ can do it. There are many other factors. If we could do it in the CRJ it would likely be extremely weight restricted.

Additionally, the approach speeds of the CRJ are so high that it cannot make the circling approach. The CRJ 200 will likely never fly to ASE.

I fly a CRJ, so I know these things.

So there!!  Big grin
smrtrthnu
 
VEEREF
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:54 am

Plus with ASE being a high yield destination, doesn't everyone agree that if something like a 757 or 737 could be used effectively at ASE, someone would already have been doing it for awhile?
Seems like some airline somewhere would have figured it out by now!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
legacy135
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 35):
The CRJs and ERJs could operate out of ASE,

We tried to do ASE with the ERJ in the simulator for fun only. The main problem on approach is the steep descend angle, as the ERJ is not the real champion for steep descends. The procedure wasn't the big deal, but you end up that high at the missed approach point, you will never get an ERJ down to the runway. The only way is to either fly a circle at the minimum which is not a real "clean" procedure, specially if the weather is so so, or you move the minimum up, but then you end up being a VFR airport. Both isn't real great for airline use.
I have no idea about the single engine operation with an ERJ in ASE as I don't have the charts. Regarding the high elevation and the LR or ER's power ratio I have some concerns as well. Don't forget, the Avro isn't the best climbing aircraft, but it's got 4 engines, so loosing one, there are still 3 of them....
 
burnsie28
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:01 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 1):
If they don't come to an agreement, they will basically hand the market over to NW who operates the Avro RJ-85 operated by Mesaba into ASE. XJ is even operating service this summer on MSP-ASE.

They also have First Class unlike the 2 other airlines United and America West into ASE

Quoting Jdaniel001 (Reply 6):
Doesn't AA and DL both fly there.....duh...they do. I think? UA should use the 757 P.S. version....that will get the people paying those high fares to ASE.

Nope they fly to EGE, and P.S. is not happening for VAIL.

Quoting United787 (Reply 19):
Why won't the CRJ work? I flew a NW CRJ from Memphis to ASE a couple of years ago. UA doesn't fly very far from ASE anyway, most of the flights got to DIA.

Not a chance, CRJ's are not certified to land.


Interesting note, a 727 once was flown into ASE by some wacko, just to prove it could be done. Of course it was empty and he was the only one on-board.
 
saab2000
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:42 am

Legacy,

As you know, the problem is not being able to do it in the sim. Real life is different.

Anyway, I used to be based in LUG in yours and my favorite country! LUG is a similarly difficult approach, especially at night in bad weather. It happens. I have probably made several hundred approaches to LUG and even though it is Ticino, they do get bad weather.

The other big problem in addition to terrain is the density altitude. ASE is high whereas LUG is only 915 MSL.
smrtrthnu
 
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United787
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:09 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 22):
no sir, you didn't.

I am sorry, were you there? Maybe it was a fill in for a BAE but it was a CRJ, it surprised me too. It was about 4-5 years ago so I could be wrong, but the BAE is hard to mistake as is the CRJ.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 23):
I know that a 737 does have the capabilities of flying into ASE from DEN, because sometimes UA does use them (rarely) but otherwise, it's a very difficult approach.

Last time I was in Aspen, I believe there was a referendum about 737's and the people of the valley voted no to 737s. Again I may be wrong.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 25):
with one funnel into and out of the airport.

There are two funnels, I have approached from the south in a UA BAE although most flights arrive and depart from the north.

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 31):
One advantage that AWAC inherited from Aspen Airways was the TACAN approach and night operations authority/approval (Rocky Mountain Airways also had it's own approach system (a microwave approach) and also had night authority; RMA became part of Continental Express/ExpressJet). IIRC, Mesaba does not have night authority. So, UAL trash-canning AWAC will cost them the advantage they had in the ASE market, unless another operator gets night authority (and that will be difficult, at best).
Again, IIRC, the VOR approach is authorized only during the day (there are no long (daylight) days during the ski season) and has high minimums. In other words, it's value isn't equal to a similar approach at a flat land airport.
ASE is a problematic airport, and experience with the local conditions can be critical. The AWAC BAe 146 pilots were well paid (for that experience) and well worth it (just look at their safety record).

I thought that UA held the night authority not AWAC.

This conversation brings up an interesting question, since British Aerospace no longer makes the BAE-146/Avro and the existing ones aren't going to last forever, is there a jet that will replace them for airports like ASE.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:21 am

Do answer some questions......

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 30):
Quoting Jayspilot (Reply 16):
the short reason that united dumped awac has nothing to do with the 146 and everything to do with the crj200.

So that's why Mesa and Skywest still fly tons of 50 seaters out of DEN every day?

This was simply because there were too many 50 seat RJ's in the United Express system, not at one specific hub. United wanted to replace some of the 50 seaters with 70 seaters across the system.

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 31):
IIRC, Mesaba does not have night authority. So, UAL trash-canning AWAC will cost them the advantage they had in the ASE market, unless another operator gets night authority (and that will be difficult, at best).

Mesaba does have night authority. They have an evening arrival in ASE from MSP at 10:30pm all winter long. As mentioned, special training is required.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 32):
Doesn't Midwest Express have some avros that they were banking on using for Delta? I think the Delta deal fell through.

Those would've been the former ACA Dornier 328JET's, not Avro's. Doubtful the 328JET would be able use ASE again, due the the engine-out procedures.

Quoting United787 (Reply 41):
I am sorry, were you there? Maybe it was a fill in for a BAE but it was a CRJ, it surprised me too. It was about 4-5 years ago so I could be wrong, but the BAE is hard to mistake as is the CRJ.

I guaretee that there has never been a NW Airlink CRJ operated into ASE. That would be Pinnacle, and again the CRJ is not allowed in ASE.
 
apodino
Posts: 3025
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 42):
Mesaba does have night authority. They have an evening arrival in ASE from MSP at 10:30pm all winter long. As mentioned, special training is required.

This may actually be true. I was loooking through Jepp Plates for ASE, and there is one approach certified for use at night, which is an RNAV/GPS to 15. This procedure is actually "owned" by Air Wisconsin, so if any other operator wants to use the procedure, they have to be trained in it for one, but they have to pay Air Wisconsin for the right to use the approach.

One thing to note. The approach angle for this approach is 6.22 degrees. A normal approach angle is 3 Degrees. Try doing 6 degrees in an rj at that speed.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 43):
Try doing 6 degrees in an rj at that speed.

Would you even be able to see the horizon in a CRJ flighdeck doing that kind of noze down?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:21 am

Mesaba does have night authority. They have an evening arrival in ASE from MSP at 10:30pm all winter long. As mentioned, special training is required.

Thanks, I stand corrected.


Quoting United787 (Reply 41):
thought that UA held the night authority not AWAC.

Last I checked, AWAC held that authority, not UAL. But it has been a while, I could be wrong (again).

[Edited 2005-08-06 02:29:35]

[Edited 2005-08-06 02:30:10]
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:31 am

Its apparent that only 2 or 3 of you in this thread have EVER been to Aspen.

The real issue is the Go-Around.... you have to be able to TURN your plane without playing tag with the mountains....

Aspen is one of my fav places to go skiing, and its wierd looking down and seeing planes take off below you then circle overhead, sometimes barely 1,000 feet above you, if even that.

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
apodino
Posts: 3025
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:31 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 41):

I thought that UA held the night authority not AWAC.

I doubt that, because Mesa also flies into ASE for United and they are not night certified. Its the name on the certificate for the carrier operating the flight, not the DBA company.
 
codc10
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:56 am

Would the COEX ERJ-145XR be better suited for ASE ops? (more power, better climb performance, etc.)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6091
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Aspen Problem For UA

Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:40 am

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 48):
Would the COEX ERJ-145XR be better suited for ASE ops? (more power, better climb performance, etc.)

Nope.

Again, it still does not meet the strict procedures in effect that are meant for safe operations. Basically, can the aircraft still safely climb and manuever if it were to lose power in an engine at the absolute worse moment: right at rotation when its too late to abort, thus you are commited to climbing out and circling to returning to the airport.

As someone else mentioned, if any other aircraft could economically and safely be flown into ASE, it likely already would be. The issue is that you cannot weight restrict an aircraft to the point where you can only fill up 50% of the seats. That said, you also have to be able to take enough pax + bags + fuel to meet all safety regulations and to be able to fly 800-1000 miles to your hub of choice (the exception being DEN which is more like 200 miles).

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