NYC777
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Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:46 pm

Looks like Airbus won't be bidding to replace RAM's fleet.

http://today.reuters.com/investing/F...ESS-AIRLINES-MOROCCO-AIRBUS-DC.XML
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
KL808
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:51 pm

This is probably bad news for RAM and good news for Boeing.
Ie, no heavy discounting here.

Drew
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:52 pm

Looks like another win for the 787!
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FCKC
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:02 am

As i already mentionned in a previous thread some weeks ago , this one will be for Boeing with the 787.
Boeing has already reserved slots for RAM , for delivery beginning in 2008 , in order to get this order , as RAM is considered by the Wichita manufacturer as a prestige African airline.
No way here for Airbus to place A350 as they can't deliver the planes before 2010-2012.No surprise Airbus will not make any tenders.
Once some years ago , RAM was very closed to place an A330 order to replace the Gecas leased 767s , but this plan failed to materialise.This was the last chance for Airbus to place wide bodies at RAM.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
Wichita manufacturer

Wichita? I think you mean Washington (or Everett).
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
airbazar
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 4):
Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
Wichita manufacturer

Wichita? I think you mean Washington (or Everett).

You mean, Chicago?  Smile
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:17 am

Yes I meant Chicago!
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:41 am

No.. lets get this very clear. Chicago is where World Headquarters is, THAT'S IT! The manufacture/final assembly is in Washington! I am so damn sick of hearing Boeing referred to as a "Chicago company". They relocated WHQ there for tax purposes only. At our soul, we will always be a Seattle company through and through! *end rant*

Steve
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searpqx
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:34 am

With the recent sale of the Ontario division, is there any significant Boeing Commercial Aircraft production that doesn't take place in the Puget Sound? (I'm not talking about subcontract assemblies).
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
redflyer
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 7):
They relocated WHQ there for tax purposes only.

I thought the real reason for relocating was because that jacka** Condit who was running the company at the time was trying to place WHQ closer to the East Coast, where a lot of political lobbying occurs and that Chicago won the competition because of the tax breaks it eventually offered. While Boeing may have complained about the heavy tax costs associated with the Seattle area, it was in the end a ruse (among many) to move WHQ because Seattle did offer concessions to get them to stay.

In any event, I digress from the topic at hand, but only because my blood boils when I think of how that moron Condit ran the company for over ten years.

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 7):
At our soul, we will always be a Seattle company through and through! *end rant*

Seattle will ALWAYS be the soul Boeing and I hope someday Boeing takes it's WHQ back there.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:50 am

So how many 787s will RAM order and what type? Like I said Boeing has this one in the bag.
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FCKC
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:25 pm

NYC777

Probably not more than 3 or 4.It will be a small order , but another African order after Ethiopian.
 
KennyK
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:10 pm

I'm surprised Airbus didn't put in for this contract if for no other reason to have a dig at Boeing by perhaps enabling RAM to get a better price for 787s, it's not as if Airbus doesn't have a good product, the A332, maybe I'm being a bit cynical.
 
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:47 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
Like I said Boeing has this one in the bag.

So was AC. As they say, "it's not over to the fat lady sings"......

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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Ruscoe
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:38 pm

Quoting KennyK (Reply 12):
I'm surprised Airbus didn't put in for this contract if for no other reason to have a dig at Boeing by perhaps enabling RAM to get a better price for 787s,

I'd reckon that Airbus has already gone as low as it can, and forced Boeing down already. The cynic in me says that the Airbus Sales Manager leaked this to reporters as a last ditch attempt, to upset the Boeing deal by embarrassment.

Ruscoe
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:43 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 14):
The cynic in me says that the Airbus Sales Manager leaked this to reporters as a last ditch attempt, to upset the Boeing deal by embarrassment.

Yes, indeed, that is extraordinarily cynical.

It is also entirely possible that Airbus got wind oif which way it would swing and saw no point in pursuing it.

You may recall that something similar happened with Spirit, when Boeing declined to tender. This decision was released to the press - by Boeing. No one "leaked" anything.

The Spirit order went to Airbus as a foregone conclusion.

What this present Moroccan sitaution does do, of course, is give the lie to the concept of Airbus giving away their aircraft to practically anyone at rock bottom prices.

 cheerful 

cheers

mariner
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georgiabill
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:25 pm

Great news for both Boeing and RAM. Just curious on which routes will RAM use their 787's? Also does anyone know if Oman Air is still considering the 787?
 
FCKC
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:13 am

Georgiabill

The 787s will serve the routes already served by the 767s.
JFK , YUL , RUH , ORY.
 
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:27 am

Thanks FCKC. Any chance of Ram looking towards expanding to India,China or West Coast of USA?
 
beauing
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:55 am

Quote:
Airbus will not participate in a tender
by Morocco's flagship carrier Royal Air Maroc (RAM) to buy four long-haul
aircraft, leaving the $790 million deal to U.S. rival Boeing.

RAM is seeking four new model long-haul jets to replace its 757 and 767 Boeing
aircraft. Boeing proposed its 787 Dreamliner and Airbus put forward its A350.

"It's with regret that we withdraw our bid for this RAM deal," David
Dufrenois, Airbus sales manager for Morocco.The terms of this tender are not
clear and bid deadlines are too short," he added.

RAM will make a decision on the deal in September.
http://today.reuters.com/investing/F...ESS-AIRLINES-MOROCCO-AIRBUS-DC.XML

So Airbus didn't bid because "the fix was in?" Must be politics. What are relations like between France and their former colony, Morocco?
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:21 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 19):
So Airbus didn't bid because "the fix was in?" Must be politics.

How very suspicious.

I doubt it is anything to do with "a fix". I doubt it is anything to do with politics.

How "political" was the Spirit deal and Boeing's decline to tender?

It's just one of those things. RAM has a Boeing fleet, and a long history with Boeing. I would imagine Airbus are quite smart enough to see which way the wind is blowing.

Why waste time - and resources - on battles you can't win?

cheers

mariner
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beauing
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:33 pm

Why waste time - and resources - on battles you can't win?[/quote]
That's what the "fix is in" means.
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:55 pm

Quoting Beauing (Reply 21):
That's what the "fix is in" means.

Okay, if you say so. American friends have always told me that it means an underhand or devious pact - a secret collusion - but if you didn't mean that, that's fine, too.

I still don't see why it would be political.

cheers

mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Okay, if you say so. American friends have always told me that it means an underhand or devious pact - a secret collusion - but if you didn't mean that, that's fine, too.

I still don't see why it would be political.

cheers

mariner

"the fix was in" does have an underhanded meaning. Typically, stated in reference to a trial with a paid off judge, or a game with a paid off referree.

I would say that the order was small enough that Airbus thought "why give a sh!t"...
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:06 pm

The latest report from Reuters

"RAM's board decided to start talks with Boeing soon after the withdrawal of Airbus from our tender," a RAM senior official said

"The talks will be for four long-haul aircraft with the possibility of buying a fifth plane," the official said.

"We are looking at the 787 Dreamliner which offers major advantages to our company," he added

Airbus were given the chance it would appear;

Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) (BA.L: Quote, Profile, Research) failed to make a bid by the July 15 deadline, which RAM had postponed twice upon demand from the European plane maker, RAM has said.

"We ended up with one bid on our table from Boeing," the official added


RAM postponed the RFP twice for Airbus, that could mean anything but if Airbus could garner the orders they did for the A350 at Le Bourget surely they could have laid a solid offer on the table for RAM too, no?

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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YYZ4RADD
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:23 pm

dont forget one of the VP's of Boeing is a highly connected Moroccan

His name is Siddik Belyamani......

One of the many reasons RAM is quite pro-Boeing....he can get them access to Boeing and its sales discounts, where others can't

YYZ4RADD
 
beauing
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting YYZ4RADD (Reply 25):
dont forget one of the VP's of Boeing is a highly connected Moroccan

His name is Siddik Belyamani......

One of the many reasons RAM is quite pro-Boeing....he can get them access to Boeing and its sales discounts, where others can't

Thanks, this was the type of information I was looking for.

It sounds like the fix was in and it's political.
 
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:05 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 13):
So was AC. As they say, "it's not over to the fat lady sings"......

True but it was in the bag that AC ordered Boeing over Airbus...the pilots just f**ked it up for them.
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:54 am

Quoting YYZ4RADD (Reply 25):
he can get them access to Boeing and its sales discounts, where others can't

The morality of that doesn't bother you?

Didn't Boeing get into a lot of trouble with tankers over "connected friends"?

Quoting Beauing (Reply 26):
It sounds like the fix was in and it's political.

I doubt it, but you seem determined on it - the morality of that doesn't bother you?

I thought Boeing had cleaned house after the tanker scandals.

cheers

mariner
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beauing
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:01 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
It's just one of those things. RAM has a Boeing fleet, and a long history with Boeing. I would imagine Airbus are quite smart enough to see which way the wind is blowing.

Why waste time - and resources - on battles you can't win?

From your description it sounds like RAM had already decided on Boeing was just going through the motions with the tender. Does that sound like a free and fair competition to you?
 
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:18 am

Georgiabill

I don't think RAM will ever fly to India , China or US West Coast , as trafic is not there.They have no intention to get a greater network.
Air Algerie should opened ALG-PEK and later YUL , but as to now they didn't do it yet.

If Airbus didn't put any tender for this order , it's only because they are unable to deliver the A350 in 2008 , what Boeing can do with the 787.
The A330 was not in the run.
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 29):
Does that sound like a free and fair competition to you?

Free and fair competition?

I would imagine that if Continental or Delta or Amercan were looking for a new aircraft it would be a waste of time for Airbus even to knock on the door.

On the simplest possible level, I think it would probably be a waste of time trying to sell a Japanese car to the Queen of England until all the survivors of the Burma railway have died.

But this does not mean - to me - that "a fix is in" or that there is anything "political" at work - simple nationalism will do it.

I suspect that FCKC is much closer to the reality of the situation:

Quoting FCKC (Reply 30):
If Airbus didn't put any tender for this order , it's only because they are unable to deliver the A350 in 2008 , what Boeing can do with the 787.

cheers

mariner
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beauing
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:42 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
I would imagine that if Continental or Delta or Amercan were looking for a new aircraft it would be a waste of time for Airbus even to knock on the door.

American has already purchased from Airbus.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 31):
But this does not mean - to me - that "a fix is in" or that there is anything "political" at work - simple nationalism will do it.

There's nothing political about nationalism?
 
bambicruz
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:43 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 30):
I don't think RAM will ever fly to India , China or US West Coast , as trafic is not there.They have no intention to get a greater network.

Im not sure if I agree on that one, since September 2004, RAM has opened 11 new destinations + later this year/early 2006 they are going to open new lines from CMN to Munich, Beyrouth, Lomé, Brazzaville, Accra, Cotonou and Lille. Which sounds like quite a big network expansion. And as i read in a newspaper today (L'Economiste), RAM's CEO said that the company plans on quote : "Offer America to Africa" and that new destinations across the atlantic are planned.

As for China and india, I wouldnt be too surprised if RAM decides to fly to China, but would seriously doubt that they would fly to India any time soon

Regards,
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):

It is also entirely possible that Airbus got wind oif which way it would swing and saw no point in pursuing it

Wouldn't it make sense to compete just for the sake of driving down the competitor's profit margin ? It certainly makes more sense to hurt Boeing than to hurt RAM financially.
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:53 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 32):
American has already purchased from Airbus.

Yes, they did. You think they will do so again? Their pilots have already demanded that the aircraft be removed from the fleet.

Quoting Beauing (Reply 32):
There's nothing political about nationalism?

Not in the pure sense, no. If Kiwis launched a "Buy New Zealand" campaign, I would not see that as overtly "political", and certainly would not see anything underhand or devious in it.

cheers

mariner
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 34):
Wouldn't it make sense to compete just for the sake of driving down the competitor's profit margin ? It certainly makes more sense to hurt Boeing than to hurt RAM financially.

I would suspect that the order is simply not large enough to bother.

List price for the 787 is (from memory) about $130,000 which is not high.

Apparantly, Boeing has given a 50% launch customer discount to ANA, which reduces the price to about $65,000 - not much more than the list of a new 737NG. I have no idea how many other airlines got the launch discount.

So clearly, Boeing is prepared to price "aggressively" to get the sales, and less concerned about profit margins.

cheers

mariner
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beauing
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
Their pilots have already demanded that the aircraft be removed from the fleet.

Do you have a source for this?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 36):
Apparantly, Boeing has given a 50% launch customer discount to ANA, which reduces the price to about $65,000

Do you have a source for this?
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 37):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 36):
Apparantly, Boeing has given a 50% launch customer discount to ANA, which reduces the price to about $65,000

Do you have a source for this?

Mariner is full of shite. I am a Boeing employee. I have personally read through the contracts with ANA. And I can guarantee you that his numbers are flawed. Obviously I can't (and won't) disclose the real numbers. But he's not even close.

ANA is not getting 787's for $65 million/each. End of story.

Steve

P.S. It's nothing against you personally Mariner. But when I see this kind of crap information, I have to run up the bullshit flag on it.  redflag  Sorry

[Edited 2005-08-09 19:50:06]
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B744F
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:40 am

You're an IT tech, what do you know about their business and finances?
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:21 am

Quoting Beauing (Reply 37):
Do you have a source for this?

The 787-8 variant was priced at a list price of $120 million per aircraft, surprising the industry, which was expecting a much higher price tag. Launch customer ANA is rumored to have received a 50 % discount, though that may never be easily confirmed.[i]

http://www.answers.com/topic/boeing-787

Quoting Beauing (Reply 37):
Do you have a source for this?

[i]Some American pilots in January signed an e-mail petition asking the company to ground the Airbus, but the effort failed.


http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet...ues/others/americanharassing2.html

cheers

mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 7):
No.. lets get this very clear. Chicago is where World Headquarters is, THAT'S IT! The manufacture/final assembly is in Washington! I am so damn sick of hearing Boeing referred to as a "Chicago company".

Yes, but the HQ i in Chicago and every damn PR newswire that Boeing releases is from Chicago, not from Washington State. Sorry  Silly
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:27 am

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 38):
It's nothing against you personally Mariner. But when I see this kind of crap information, I have to run up the bullshit flag on it.    Sorry

Not a problem, I am not offended. I was as surprised as anyone when I saw that article about the 50% discount.

Since 40% is the usual LCD, I assume that the 50% - if it is true - is because of the one third Japanese component in the 787.

The only question is, which other customers got that discount? Does Primaris, for example, count as launch? Boeing says yes.

cheers

mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
Yes, but the HQ i in Chicago and every damn PR newswire that Boeing releases is from Chicago, not from Washington State. Sorry

Indeed, as well as BCAInfoSys is neglecting the fact that Boeing is a company with two major divisions, and the other division really has very little going in in Washington State. It is more accurate to say that Washington State is the home of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, but to say that the Boeing Company is headquartered there is ignoring the existance of IDS, which at times is more profitable than BCA.
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:31 am

OK B744F.. I'm not an IT tech. I work in IT, but I'm in Information Security. I'm not a tech installing harddrives and whatever, I work on security policy and export compliance, among other subjects. I previously I worked in IT Finance, so I saw that stuff all the time. Not to mention that being in InfoSec, you come into contact with a lot of different groups, believe me. If you have any questions about my qualifications, you can talk to Ulfinator. He & I used to be in the same workgroup.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 41):
Yes, but the HQ i in Chicago and every damn PR newswire that Boeing releases is from Chicago, not from Washington State.

And yeah I don't care where AP says something comes from. Think of it this way, there are less then 1,000 employees in the Chicago area. There are approaching 100,000 in the state of Washington. The company was founded here. All of our airplanes go through final assembly here. Washington is the heart of Boeing as we know it. Most of our other locations (California, St. Louis, etc.) come from mergers. They are very important parts of the Boeing family and I'm not diminishing them in any way. It just really gets under my skin when I see "Chicago-based Boeing". That's just a technicality to get away from the oppressive business enviornment here. Washington is the heart & soul of Boeing. If you've spent any time here at all, you'd understand that.

Oh.. and Mariner. Notice the key word: rumored. I'm telling you, that rumor is false.

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:37 am

N328KF puts it nicely. There is some IDS (Integrated Defense Systems) prescence here, but the majority of it (and Phantom Works for that matter) are in SoCal and St. Louis. However, a good deal of SSG, BCA and BCC personnel are here in Seattle. And this is the historical home. This is where William Boeing put down his roots. So I will always consider this the home of the Boeing Company, with some divisions being located in other places.

Steve
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 44):
Oh.. and Mariner. Notice the key word: rumored. I'm telling you, that rumor is false.

Note that I said "Apparently", "rumored" and "if it is true".

cheers

mariner
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:48 am

That's ok Mariner. I understand completely. I just wanted to make sure I was very clear. Not to mention B744F trying to call me out.. just had to make sure.  Smile

Steve
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:50 am

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 47):
I just wanted to make sure I was very clear.

I suggest that "full of shite" makes it fairly clear. British English is my first language.

 Smile

cheers

mariner
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Airbus Won't Join Morocco's Tender-papers

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:53 am

You're right.. I spoke a little forcefully. I am just so tired of armchair-CEOs and posers here that try to come across as omniscient. You seem to to be a fairly well-spoken guy and I wasn't trying to be an arse. My dearest apologies.

Oh and to answer your question, I haven't reviewed the Primaris contracts so I can't tell you what they did and didn't get. Most of my work deals with ITAR/EAR regulation, so it has more of an international slant to it. I have some friends I can check with.. maybe I can get a peek at it. I'll let you know.

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.

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