FlyPNS1
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Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:50 pm

Not a real surprise...this route was expected. Song begins SFO-MCO 3x weekly on Nov 4. By Mar 1, the flight will be daily. Song will also increase frequencies on many of the existing BOS/JFK-Florida routes.

A 2nd FLL-LAX service will also be added.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/06/business/06air.html
 
PacificFlyer
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:27 am

That sounds great! Right now the only airline that flies non-stop between MCO and SFO is United. With Song flying MCO-SFO, there will be more non-stop flights between the two cities. This is good news for me!
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:31 am

Song is an excellent product and that goes a long way (though not all the way) against the likes of B6 and FL, etc. I hope DL is somehow able to morph its domestic product into something of the same quality without alienating business pax. BTW...I am surprised United doesn't use TED on this route.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ua777222
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:41 am

Take a stop down to T1 at SFO and you'll have already thought Song moved in. All the check in counters have been changed, all signs now carry the logo. I'm excited to see it! When is the first SFO-BOS/JFK route that is so trasured by United and American going to be starting up?

Take care,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
as739x
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:48 am

Its about damn time someone else jumps on SFO-MCO. Thank you Song! I have to say these birds bring some more color to SFO.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:50 am

Song has two flights in the JFK-SFO market already.

I'm curious to know whether this involves some additional 757s brought over from mainline? I know the increased frequencies from JFK to Florida are at the expense of decreased Transcon flights. (Seasonal)
 
modesto2
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:54 am

It's great to see Delta increasing its presence at SFO. Considering DL's decreasing West Coast service in the last few years, I'm glad DL sees the value of the Bay Area. Although a loyal JetBlue fan, I hope DL does well on this route. Maybe B6 needs to start OAK-FLL...
 
as739x
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:57 am

OK..there seems to be confision by some.

As Padcrasher said. Song has arrived. They are currently run 2 daily SFO-JFK flights. By the end of Oct or Nov it shows all 5 dailys to JFK being Song. SFO-BOS does seem like a liklely flight, but does DL have the planes to do it?

Matt, also gates 40,42,44 have Delta/Song signs on them. The other 2 gates don't.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
WindowSeat
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Thank you Song! I have to say these birds bring some more color to SFO.

Song goes five daily to JFK starting September. Thats a lot of green Big grin

What are the loads like? Anyone know?

cheers
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 am

As said, could have been expected, and at the same time, I expect FLL-SFO to also come sometime down the road. Btw on the topic of frequencyy increases for the winter season, JFK-MCO/FLL both go to 8(!) daily flights in November.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:17 am

FLL will be a big mess all winter. I can almost bet you the congestion in FLL and to a lesser extent JFK has thrown a wrench in Jetblue's expansion plans for these airports. BOS/MIA/EWR and other airports look all the better.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 2):
Song is an excellent product and that goes a long way (though not all the way) against the likes of B6 and FL, etc.

OK, the argument could be made JB has a better product in comparison to Song. But in what world is FL even in the ballpark?
 
ua777222
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:35 am

Wow alot of stuff changes after 2 weeks of being out of the country. So there are actual Song aircraft that are flying these routes? I thought the same when I saw all the song attire but was told that they don't show up until later this month/next month.

Some one please conferm?

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
By Mar 1, the flight will be daily.

The flight goes daily 31JAN.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 5):
I'm curious to know whether this involves some additional 757s brought over from mainline?

Increased aircraft utilization and 40 minute turn times on some flights effective Nov01. The only way we get this flight is to have it be an all-nighter. There just isn't the equipment during the day at this point in time.
They are still working out ground time issues and crew issues for SFO-MCO.

DL1985 MCO SFO 2045 2332
DL2093 SFO MCO 2340 0742
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:17 am

I knew the new Song route uploaded this weekend would be SFO-MCO. I don't get the deal with it starting 3x weekly, though.
a.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:34 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
I don't get the deal with it starting 3x weekly, though.

Allow the plane an opportunity to be worked on in MCO. In December there are only two planes remaining over night in MCO 7 days a week and both come from JFK. There just isn't any time with the winter schedule to have these planes go through minor maintenance and once a month they need server upgrades for things like new movies and games and it would take too long with only two planes staying for more than an hour. The Song planes in December are flying almost all day long and on average only have about 50 minutes ground time.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 11):
OK, the argument could be made JB has a better product in comparison to Song. But in what world is FL even in the ballpark?

B6 and Song are on a different level as far as on board ammenties are concerned when compared to other LCCs...I will grant you that. But when I said that it(song) goes a long way against them, I was including everything as a whole including cost structure which Im sure FL has got them beat. As the saying goes "butts in seats don't guarantee profits." Just because song may grab market share with its chic style doesn't mean its hurting other carriers if its not profitable...thats all I meant. I happen to love song and fly it as often as I can.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 15):
The Song planes in December are flying almost all day long and on average only have about 50 minutes ground time.

Wow, talk about increasing aircraft utilization  Wow! . Since Song will be adding so many flights for the high season in Florida, is there any chance of finally seeing TPA-LAS? Seems like a missing link in Song's network at the moment.
 
SongStar
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:24 am

and don't forget the aforementioned FLL-CAI via JFK mentioned in a previous threat  rotfl  but seriously.. Smile great things are coming  Smile


ss

flysong.com
 
tinpusher007
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:38 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 17):
Wow, talk about increasing aircraft utilization . Since Song will be adding so many flights for the high season in Florida, is there any chance of finally seeing TPA-LAS? Seems like a missing link in Song's network at the moment.

DL did briefly fly TPA-LAS a few years ago but I think it got the axe sometime before 9/11.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
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mariner
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:58 am

I am totally confused. Why is Song doing all these transcons?

The airline is Delta. Is Delta saying, we've can't compete, but Song can?

Why doesn't Delta become Song, in that case?

And - um - yes, I do know about the supposed "leisure traveller" concept, but I had never thought of JFK/SFO as a "leisure" route. Or JFK/SEA.

cheers

mariner
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dutchjet
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
I am totally confused. Why is Song doing all these transcons?

The airline is Delta. Is Delta saying, we've can't compete, but Song can?

Why doesn't Delta become Song, in that case?

And - um - yes, I do know about the supposed "leisure traveller" concept, but I had never thought of JFK/SFO as a "leisure" route. Or JFK/SEA.

cheers

mariner

I think that you raise some very good points in a light-hearted post.

Of course you are aware that Song is doing transcons out of JFK because JetBlue does transcons out of JFK and for no other reason.....DL thinks that NYC based and west coast pax like the Song product better, so Song now flies the routes. I have no idea if its working or if DL is increasing market share by flying Song on transcons, but I do know that this move has not made premium fare customers travelling to/from Europe very happy. The lack of F or J class on Song flights is a major annoyance for those who travel on DL in J class between Europe and Florida or California - if you travel via JFK, its means coach on the domestic segment. The only conclusion I can come to is that DL now considers transcons leisure routes because LCC fly them - as you point out, there are a lot of business pax on these so called leisure routes who probably are no longer flying DL.

I have never been a big fan of the "airline with an airline" concept, so I am not objective - but if DL thinks that its Song product is what the flying public want, why not standardize on that product system wide?

As for SFO-MCO, why not?
 
copaair737
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:31 am

Alright! Great news. Its about time someone else got on SFO-MCO. Any chance we will see SFO-TPA? It'd be cool to see, but I doubt it since TZ failed pretty miserably on PIE-SFO. With US apparently going to start FLL-SFO, its great to see new Florida service to SFO. More DL service as well.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:37 am

Delta is not saying it cannot compete. It is saying Song can better compete.

And for the umpteenth time it is not Song competing against Delta, it is Song competing for Delta.

So why don't they covert the whole thing to Song? Rome was not built in a day.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:42 am

The real weird thing in all of this is why AA after watching their average fare fall from $489 in 2000 to $286 in 2004 (while fuel costs have doubled) is still flying the same frequencies, with the same old widebodies seating 156. (The same as JB's little A320s)..LOL

Now that's strange.
 
3201
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:51 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 22):
Alright! Great news. Its about time someone else got on SFO-MCO. Any chance we will see SFO-TPA? It'd be cool to see, but I doubt it since TZ failed pretty miserably on PIE-SFO. With US apparently going to start FLL-SFO, its great to see new Florida service to SFO. More DL service as well.

I'd love to see nonstops between any airport pair in the Bay Areas. I keep hoping for WN to do TPA-OAK or, even better, TPA-SJC. C'mon guys, FLL-TPA-SJC-SEA, it's gotta be a winner, right?  Wink

I never knew about the TZ PIE-SFO, which may be part of why it failed -- I'd have likely flown it. How was it publicized? When did it exist?

(I thought National, and then Pan Am, had some TPA-SFO in the pre/post deregulation era, but I think not daily, and maybe not even both directions. The timetables I have handy, June 1979 and Spring/Summer 1980, don't have any nonstops either way.)
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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mariner
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:52 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 23):
Delta is not saying it cannot compete. It is saying Song can better compete.

I am having very real problems with that Padcrasher.

Delta is saying that Song is a better, more competitve airline?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
copaair737
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting 3201 (Reply 25):
I never knew about the TZ PIE-SFO, which may be part of why it failed -- I'd have likely flown it. How was it publicized? When did it exist?

I don't know the specifics on it, but it was around approximately 2 years ago albeit for a very short time. It was when SFO was getting built up for TZ, as was PIE. I don't think it was advertised that much, but I could be wrong, as I was in South America at the time. I too would like to see TPA get some Bay Area service.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
ta is saying that Song is a better, more competitve airline?

Yes it does/is. Costs are lower, capacity is higher. You do the math.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 17):
Since Song will be adding so many flights for the high season in Florida, is there any chance of finally seeing TPA-LAS?

It could happen, but not in the immediate future with the current allotment of aircraft.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 23):
So why don't they covert the whole thing to Song? Rome was not built in a day.

I hope the construction of DL is quicker.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:04 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 28):
hope the construction of DL is quicker.

There's no rush on Song, if Delta mainline is incorporating the important parts of the Song game plan. Quicker turn times, higher utilization, less catering, simplified fleet, more internet bookings, etc, etc, etc.
 
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mariner
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 28):
Yes it does/is. Costs are lower, capacity is higher. You do the math.

I have no idea how to do the math because I've no idea how an outsider gets access to (a) Song's costs, as separate from Delta and (b) Song's revenue, as separate from Delta.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:13 am

Here's a great example of why Delta is not sweating going the AA/CO route.

FLL-LAX, head to head AA Song vs Song 757s. AA's average fare $170 Song (new kid on the block) $164. But wait? Song's 757s carry 9% more passengers. Who wins that battle? Especially when Song adds a 2nd frequency and more or less eliminates AA's frequency advantage.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:15 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
Delta is saying that Song is a better, more competitve airline?

Yes. I don't think there's any doubt that Song is a far better airline than Delta. With the exception of a slightly larger seat, Song is a better product than even DL's domestic first class product.

I think DL has made it very clear that leisure travelers are going to the be the focus of DL's domestic business. DL has given up trying to attract domestic business traffic. My only guess is that DL's management believes they can get costs low enough to sustain a leisure airline. I have my doubts, but that is the way DL's management is headed.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 24):
The real weird thing in all of this is why AA after watching their average fare fall from $489 in 2000 to $286 in 2004 (while fuel costs have doubled) is still flying the same frequencies, with the same old widebodies seating 156. (The same as JB's little A320s)..LOL

Now that's strange.

No it's not. AA has a huge amount of corporate contracts and premium class flyers on the route that have stuck with AA. While they have seen revenue on their trans-cons fall, it has dominately been coach class revenue, which isn't the source or profit for these flights. They still rake in a lot money selling C and F. They don't keep a 3-class 762 fleet for fun.
a.
 
as739x
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:50 am

TZ SFO-PIE did aweful. They started it with a 753 and it went on to do a Hawaii turn, the was downgraded to a 738 and only fed pax into SFO for Hawaii. SFO to Florida has never been a strong market, not to mention Tampa. If TZ was to succed they need to do MCO. My understanding knowing people at TZ here that the flight (other then holdiday) went out with a 45% load factor.


ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
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mariner
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
I don't think there's any doubt that Song is a far better airline than Delta.

I am, as the British would say, gob-smacked. If an airline (Delta) knows how to run a better airline (Song) why doesn't it make Delta like Song?

What is the point of Delta?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
DL has given up trying to attract domestic business traffic.

Okay. But what happens to the international business traffic travelling domestically?

Tough titties?

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting SongStar (Reply 18):
and don't forget the aforementioned FLL-CAI via JFK mentioned in a previous threat

That would be RSW-JFK-CAI  Wink
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33):
No it's not. AA has a huge amount of corporate contracts and premium class flyers on the route that have stuck with AA

What is the continuous reference to contracts? Corporations? Really they could get their money from a rich Uncle of Carty's for all that matters.

AA's average fare is what it is.*** $306 bucks.**** They are flying around a fat 767-200 seating only 156, nearly double the CASM of Jetblue. Making no more money and JB is flying out of sorry LGB.

Right now with Delta's mainline yields, and Songs present load factor. Song will beat AA in this market. I'm just waiting for the data to come out and I will do the math for you.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
If an airline (Delta) knows how to run a better airline (Song) why doesn't it make Delta like Song?

There's a few reasons. Cost is probably the first. DL simply doesn't have the money to convert everything to a Song like product. Another reason is that while Song may work flying high-volume point-to-point routes, it may not work so well in the hub and spoke system. Finally, there's an issue of finding the right employees. Many of DL's current employees would not fit in the Song type of service. Song right now can pick and choose the best....leaving the disgruntled employees for the rest of DL's network.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
What is the point of Delta?

That's a good question. Best answer I can give is that Delta exists as a traditional hub and spoke carrier connecting all the thousands of market pairs that won't fit the Song model. Song won't be flying to ERI, EUG or GNV.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 35):
Okay. But what happens to the international business traffic travelling domestically?

Tough titties?

Apparently, tough titties it is. DL seems to believe that international business passengers won't mind connecting to Song. I think DL is wrong, but that is the strategy DL has chosen. Right now, most business travelers can bypass Song by just connecting through ATL or CVG where Song does not exist. The only international routes unique to JFK are STI, SDQ, NCE, VCE, IST, ATH and TXL (BCN in the off season). Of course, if this strategy is pursued too heavily it will then undermine the health of the JFK routes.

[Edited 2005-08-07 03:29:00]
 
commavia
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:38 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
They are flying around a fat 767-200 seating only 156, nearly double the CASM of Jetblue.

You conveniently leave out they are also generating a RASM on these routes that is almost certainly higher than B6 on average. While they compete with the low-end market on fares, their high end is still delivering for them, and making the money on these flights as MAH says.

The day B6 corners the incredibly high-value entertainment industry traffic on this route, that's the day AA is going to start to worry.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
Making no more money and JB is flying out of sorry LGB.

How the h*ll would you know?

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
Right now with Delta's mainline yields, and Songs present load factor. Song will beat AA in this market. I'm just waiting for the data to come out and I will do the math for you.

"Song will beat AA in this market."

Yeah, sure.

AA handily dominates the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO markets for several reasons -- first, it has the most capacity on both routes; second, it has the best frequency on JFK-LAX and is highly competitive with frequency on JFK-SFO; third, AA can still fill their premium cabins on these routes with high-yield paying passengers easily. There is so much high-value traffic on these routes that AA makes money on these flights from F and C, and not Y -- that is how it has always been.

As for Song "beating" AA -- you just continue to live in your dream world, Padcrasher. I'm sure AA is more than happy to let Song take all the $169 RT fares on this route so AA can skim the top off the Y market, just as UA is doing. AA hasn't been affected at all by UA's p.s., and I doubt Song has had too much of an impact either. AA doesn't really seem to mind too much -- they're still flying their 15 very popular daily ("fat," as you so strangely put it) 762s and still doing just fine.

[Edited 2005-08-07 03:39:17]

[Edited 2005-08-07 03:40:46]
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:45 am

Comavia.

I know the load factors of both. I know the average fares of both. I know how much each aircraft seats. I know in general how much more a 767-200 is costlier to operate than a 757-200.

With that I can get a very good idea who's outperforming who in this market.

Don't blame me because you don't have the data. It's past date stuff. As I said I will wait for the Song data to show up. It's just a matter of time.
 
stirling
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
I have never been a big fan of the "airline with an airline" concept, so I am not objective - but if DL thinks that its Song product is what the flying public want, why not standardize on that product system wide?

That is a mouthful.
The "Airline within an Airline" concept is nothing new, but the motivations behind such have changed.
Through the history of commercial aviation, airlines have operated dedicated aircraft fleets in unique service classes, all-first, all-coach, what have you. While in the past they were purely market responsive, today, labor has more to do with it than anything.

Eastern had all-coach DC-4 service up and down the east coast.
Delta had all-first Convairs running milkruns connecting smaller stations.
United had MEN ONLY flights....really.
Forgot who operated the Gas-Lamp Flights, they're but another example. (Allegheny? Mohawk?, I remember it was for a time on the Nord 262.....the theme being those wacky days of the Gay 1890's when aviation was only but a dream.)

So while it's nothing new, one must wonder, why, if SONG is so great...Why doesn't the entire airline become SONG?
Or is that already in progress?
Will SONG become the domestic arm of Delta? Traditional Delta will remain to jump the oceans? Connect the continents?


Back to SONG SFO-MCO. When will it be loaded? I tried to check out fares, but Orlando wasn't one of the choices in the drop-down box.
Delete this User
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:49 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
DL has given up trying to attract domestic business traffic.

No they haven't there are a ton of business traffic routes in DL's system. The type of aircraft that flies JFKLAX doesn't affect the corporate discount given to the numerous corporations that use DL around the nation. DL has given up on attracting the small amount of travelers that must be on a first class ticket that aren't binded to a certain carrier for travel.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
DeltaMIA
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:57 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 41):
Back to SONG SFO-MCO. When will it be loaded? I tried to check out fares, but Orlando wasn't one of the choices in the drop-down box.

It's loaded. You can get it on delta.com. However flysong.com will not have it until the PR is made. I assume it will come Monday or Tuesday along with introductory fares.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 39):
The day B6 corners the incredibly high-value entertainment industry traffic on this route, that's the day AA is going to start to worry.

What is that 2-3 people a plane. And if they are continuing on another airline say BA to LHR or DL to VCE then AA gets next to nothing for the seat. I think AA does need to worry, but that is just my opinion. Whether Song is on the route or not yields are falling across the domestic system and unfortunately the limited premium travelers out there will hardly make up for the drop.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
 
commavia
Posts: 9822
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:05 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 40):
I know in general how much more a 767-200 is costlier to operate than a 757-200.

Again, nobody is disputing that the 762 has a higher CASM than the 757, especially in Song's cozy 199-seat configuration. However, AA derives much more premium revenue from their 762s than Song does from their 757s.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 40):
With that I can get a very good idea who's outperforming who in this market.

Well, enjoy your "good ideas," because that's all they are. You have absolutely no clue as to what is actually happening in these markets, and your pretending to is a joke. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on either AA or Song's performance on these routes, but I can tell you with almost completely certainty that AA is doing just fine on these routes.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 43):
What is that 2-3 people a plane.

Huh? 2-3 people per plane?

DeltaMIA (and Padcrasher), have you ever actually flown in First or Business Class on an AA flight JFK-LAX?

Pretty much every flight, every day, is packed in premium cabins with full-fare customers, mostly from the entertainment industry, especially in the morning. On the first 2-3 AA daily flights JFK-LAX and visa versa, you probably stand a better chance of seeing a celebrity than any other flights in the world. This entertainment industry traffic doesn't equate to 2-3 people per flight; it's more like 20-30 per flight, and probably more.
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 42):
The type of aircraft that flies JFKLAX doesn't affect the corporate discount given to the numerous corporations that use DL around the nation.

But what happens when the companies who have corporate discounts with DL decide to give their business to someone else because DL no longer offers a desirable business product? You act as if business travelers have no choice but to fly Delta, so they'll just accept anything DL throws at them.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:12 am

Here's a great example of what I'm talking about.

The latest fare data from the 4th Q. (My apologies AA has gone up slightly)

LAX" "JFK" 2475.00 4299.13 276.30 "AA" 43.06 315.30 "DL" 23.98 203.42

Delta's average fare 203.42, AA's average fare 315.30

Let's forget about Song's lower cost. Let's forget about Delta having lower costs than AA in general.

Let's just go by a AA 767-200 having 20% higher operating costs (Aviation Daily published the figures, I don't have them right now) holding only 156 seats. Whereas the 757 holds 199.

AA's load factor last time I checked as 89%, Song's from what I have seen 87%.

That's basically the same margin. With your contracts, with your goose liver pate in F class, with you cushy pillows, with all your high class Time Warner execs.

As I said just waiting for the Song numbers to come out.
 
padcrasher
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RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44):
However, AA derives much more premium revenue from their 762s than Song does from their 757s

And that's reflected in the average fare data.

Mark can you weigh in hear? Cooler heads need to defend poor ole AA. Maybe with some data? Comavia's can't stop talking about the premium passengers and contracts....LOL
 
jetblueatjfk
Posts: 1556
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:42 am

RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
and Songs present load factor.

How do you know that, they don't release it, it is mixed in with DL's and if you know them and you think they are so good, then release them. Otherwise we can assume you don;t know the loads other than just pulling up flight loads on the computer, if you are a travel agent or something and that doesn't prove it either.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 37):
Song will beat AA in this market.

Most likely not, AA will get all premium passengers and all first class people and then a good amount of economy pax, because general public will just assume to pick AA and go with it (I know many cases that it does happen). Song is going after the economy pax and nothing else. They will not bet them.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 39):
As for Song "beating" AA -- you just continue to live in your dream world, Padcrasher. I'm sure AA is more than happy to let Song take all the $169 RT fares on this route so AA can skim the top off the Y market, just as UA is doing. AA hasn't been affected at all by UA's p.s., and I doubt Song has had too much of an impact either. AA doesn't really seem to mind too much -- they're still flying their 15 very popular daily ("fat," as you so strangely put it) 762s and still doing just fine.

YES! That is all true.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 43):
What is that 2-3 people a plane. And if they are continuing on another airline say BA to LHR or DL to VCE then AA gets next to nothing for the seat. I think AA does need to worry, but that is just my opinion. Whether Song is on the route or not yields are falling across the domestic system and unfortunately the limited premium travelers out there will hardly make up for the drop.

There are still a very good amount of premium pax out there and b/c fares are higher for the better service (I guess you can call it that) then they get more money for each PAX and so it will come out either right on with Song or just around it. And people will still take AA transcon service, the amount of people they carry between JFK-LAX-JFK and JFK-SFO-JFK is ALOT. They don't need to worry about Song on the other routes either. They will do just fine. They may not totally beat them out on it but they will be just fine.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: Song To Fly SFO-MCO

Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:42 am

Looks like I've come to a dead end. Hard data met with bluster, insults, no refuting data and silence on the part of Mr. AA...... Such Gentleman...LOL


Good night.