Sepang
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Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:42 am


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Photo © Alexander Kueh


Maybe Boeing 747 pilots in this forum can give the explanation above.
 
Indy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:47 am

I'm leaning towards a fake. Granted I am away from home right now and zooming in with MS paint but the background is so nice and clean and then there is this border around the jet. It would probably be easier to tell in Photoshop. But I'm thinking its a fake.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
Indy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:49 am

BTW... I'm no pilot but aren't the flaps on that plane extended as if it were coming in for a landing?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
ikramerica
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:50 am

Fun to be a pax on that... not.

As for messy edges, that is often an indication of a real pic, as compression artifacts congregate around harsh transitions (like a plane on a blue background) while the BG and the plane itself will look clearer.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Indy
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:55 am

Look at all the imperfections in the white of the airplane and compare it to the perfection in the blue of the sky. Skipping past looking at the pixels in the image.... can a 747 get to that angle as such a low altitude without stalling?
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 2):
BTW... I'm no pilot but aren't the flaps on that plane extended as if it were coming in for a landing?

Nope, not even close...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
Indy
Posts: 3957
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting USAFHummer (Reply 5):
Nope, not even close...

Greg

Ok they aren't extended  Smile. Well can you then confirm whether or not the angle of the plane is possible without stalling at such a low altitude? I assume the airspeed wouldn't be high enough just yet to climb at such an angle.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
cbphoto
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:12 pm

Well....I guess it could be an empty 747, and at full power I am sure it could very well pull an angle like that. The 757 can go very very steep when empty, so I have no reason to doubt that a 747 cannot go that angle. BTW the flaps are in a normal take off position. However, if the picture is a fake, i'll let the photo analysts decide that  Smile
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
wukka
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 4):
Look at all the imperfections in the white of the airplane and compare it to the perfection in the blue of the sky. Skipping past looking at the pixels in the image.... can a 747 get to that angle as such a low altitude without stalling?

Regarding the imperfections... in PS, it would appear that the compression artifacts are pretty equal (rather nasty), throughout. If you have the opportunity, check out the pic on a CRT vs. an LCD monitor. The "perfection" in the blue of the sky looks like absolute hell on an LCD. The white of the plane almost looks better.

As for the angle at altitude question, I would say absolutely... it may be a bit steeper than "normal", but if the plane has a decent runout and strong groundspeed before pulling back, he's at what looks like a 30-35 degree nose-up. Steep, definitely so.

Speaking of which, I'd love to hear some of the comments from red-eye cargo pilots that pull that nasty burn and roll 90 on a 36 departure out of CVG at 5am for noise abatement.

Too bad that Adobe has made a product that makes us think that everything we see is bullshit.
We can agree to disagree.
 
beeweel15
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting CBPhoto (Reply 7):
Well....I guess it could be an empty 747, and at full power I am sure it could very well pull an angle like that. The 757 can go very very steep when empty, so I have no reason to doubt that a 747 cannot go that angle. BTW the flaps are in a normal take off position. However, if the picture is a fake, i'll let the photo analysts decide that

I have to agree with you. On a daily basis at work at JFK airport when I watch those a/c taking off those pilots do some steep climbs especially the cargo pilots. I have fun watching Fed Ex lift off especially their MD11's and DC10's those pilots do some steep climbs especially when empty or carrying little weight.
 
Aggieflyboi04
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:24 pm

Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:28 pm

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

That's one hell of a simulator!
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:41 pm

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):

That's not a simulator.

It is not possible to get such a good quality photo in a "game".

Thanks
Mike
 
mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:44 pm

Sounds like someone had fun for base training or a short hauler!

In the days when JAL744s would do CGK-DPS runs, we get take offs like these... almost on a daily basis!

Let it be on TO/GA power no derates, light, keep that speed on V2+20... whaddya get? Steep! :P

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
wukka
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:06 pm

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

Huh?!?  confused 
We can agree to disagree.
 
abirda
Posts: 296
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:39 pm

From a technical perspective, the photo looks legitimate.

Throughout the image, midtones are fairly muddy. The glare on the upper portion of the fuselage matches where the natural light seems to be originating from in the rest of the photo. Take a look at the horizontal stabilizer. If I had been attempting to produce this photo, I would have attempted to create a bigger contrast between the sky and the right side of the stabilizer. The way it's almost lost in the grey of the sky screams legitimate to me. It's a fairly clean plane, and there seem to be runway reflections on the belly in keeping with the plane's attitude and altitude, judging by the visible portion of the runway in the image. The toughest part of producing this fake would have been the fine detail around the landing gear struts. Blown up in photoshop, it looks too natural. As stated above, the very limited amount of fringing around the aircraft looks much more like a product of in-camera compression and/or down-sampling for the upload.

If this were a fake, the 744 would have had to be "knocked out" of its original background using one of several photoshop methods. Even if it was originally photographed against a flawless sky, it's not difficult to spot even the best of knockouts, if you know what you're looking for.

It's real.
 
baw716
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:39 pm

This is a perfectly legitimate takeoff.

The plane is obviously light, near OEW, plus some fuel for a short hop. From what I could see he has at least flap 5 selected, so depending upon his trim, he could rotate at 130-135kts and produce a very steep angle of climb once the tail has cleared on the rotation, which is probably V2+20kts.

Remember, the old 747-200s that were empty could climb like rockets if they were empty. The -400 has a better wing and winglets to produce higher lift at heavy weight, so imagine what it could do on a short distance flight, say KUL-SIN if the flight were really light. It could get up to FL240 in about 6-7 minutes with too much reduction in climb angle.

I think we've all become too accustom to seeing these aircraft take off when they are full, lumbering down the runway and then powering into the sky for the first 1500 feet of climb, then settling into its acceleration climb, then increasing its climb performance at about 3000 feet once it has accelerated and cleaned up its flaps. We are just not accustom to seeing it the other way, climbing out when it is empty. It does happen sometimes, and it is a sight to see when it does. It makes the 757 look anemic in its climb performance, and that bird is truly a rocket with wings.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
pelican
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:03 pm

To all who think this pic is fake, have you ever uploaded a photo to the db? If so, you would know every photo is screened before it is added to the db and those a.net screeners aren't a bunch of idi*ts.

pelican
 
airbusA346
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
Fun to be a pax on that... not.

You would definitely be pressed into your seat.

hehe


 Big grin  Silly  bigthumbsup 


Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
whitehatter
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:42 pm

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 16):
The plane is obviously light, near OEW, plus some fuel for a short hop. From what I could see he has at least flap 5 selected, so depending upon his trim, he could rotate at 130-135kts and produce a very steep angle of climb once the tail has cleared on the rotation, which is probably V2+20kts.

As it's taken at the MH home base, I was thinking it could be a check flight after some work in the hangar so the aircraft would potentially be totally empty except for enough fuel for a short ride. Especially if they are doing engine testing.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:45 pm

Wow. Some of the people in this thread are truly... remarkable.  spit 

Johan, can you raise the subscription rates?
Dear moderators: No.
 
scotron11
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:48 pm

I was at JFK a while back an watched a TWA 747 do exactly this. A very short take-off and zoomed up like a rocket. As stated previously, the plane is probably empty.
 
FrancoBlanco
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:13 pm

I think it is incredible how some people always manage it to disrespect others. Click on the photographer´s name, you will see that he has 247 photos in the database, all of them are high quality and I do not think he needs to put fake photos on this site.

I am no photographer and no pilot but I think this take-off should be perfectly possible with a lightly loaded 747.

BTW, it is "digital", not "digatal". Use the spell checker.

Sebastian
'Pointless!' - NY Times
 
baylorairbear
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:45 pm

Let's give the screeners a little credit for what they do.

BaylorAirBear
I'm just skipping stones...
 
mhodgson
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:46 pm

Its probably heading between KUL and MHs maintenance base at the old KUL airport (Subang? I think). Thus a very light fuel load, no PAX, no bags and minimal crew.
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
hotje
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:20 pm

@Mhodgson

You were just ahead of me. I think they'll still do maintenance on the old KUL and this might be just a ferry flight to that old apt.

I've seen Virgin 744s and 742s ferrying out of AMS back to the UK after maintenance here and you simply don't believe ur eyes. Pretty similar to this picture.
 
jafa39
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:28 pm

Only last saturday night I stood outside the simulator shed at AKL and watched an NZ 747 do this very thing, VERY impressive in the flesh!!!!!!!!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
pilot kaz
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:31 pm

Quoting Hotje (Reply 25):
I've seen Virgin 744s and 742s ferrying out of AMS back to the UK after maintenance here and you simply don't believe ur eyes. Pretty similar to this picture.

yup I saw the same last Thursday... VS 744 on a shuttle flight LHR-LGW, Oh did that thing climb!

I don't think it is fake at all.
-
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:35 pm

You should see the BA744s that BA take to Fairford for the RIAT - fully loaded with pax (id imagine), no bags, no cargo and barely any fuel - they dont de-rate the TO either - impressive to say the least.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
gg190
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:24 pm

I heard a story yesterday of the Garuda Indonesia flights, which would route from LGW to CDG and then on to indonesia using a 747. When they left LGW they often a light passenger load, and obviously a light fuel load, and it would produce a fantastic rate of climb.
 
cricket
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:32 pm

 Wow!
What a takeoff!!!!!
Well, MH pilots are known for their over-rotation skills...
Remember Zurich!
 Silly
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
VS747SPUR
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:52 pm

Quoting Pilot kaz (Reply 27):
yup I saw the same last Thursday... VS 744 on a shuttle flight LHR-LGW, Oh did that thing climb!

I've seen the same but from LGW-LHR and they usually go up very steep.
I think the picture is real myself.

VS747SPUR
Fly DL
 
VEEREF
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:10 pm

If the aircraft is lightly loaded, then this picture is perfectly normal.
Don't forget a 744 was designed carry much more than it's own weight, so when empty is quite capable of a spirited takeoff.
Even on the DC-10 when we are very light can require a pitch of well over 20 degrees to maintain target speed on initial climbout, though by company policy we are limited to max 20.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
Emirates2005
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:19 pm

I agree... the plane must have a light load.

Here is the proof although (on pic below) it is not a 744, this 346 is a heavy too and can do it easily with proper load:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Dopson - AirTeamImages

A310, A332, B732, B738, B742, B743, B773, B77W, DC-10, ATR42, TU-134, TU-154, IL-62, MI-8, E190, A320, C172
 
gearup
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:23 pm

Can't speak for the authenicity of the photograph but as been said before, a lightly loaded 747 can easily do that. I was on an 18 year old 747-100 on a maintenance test flight very lightly loaded ( the aircraft had only a few seats and no galleys). It went up like a missile at a very steep AOA. To add to the thrill the pilot performed a rate 2 turn through 120 degrees at 200 AGL! Pilots very rarely get to 'play' with their aircraft, it's just no fun with PAX on board! Sometimes a 747 can think it's an F15! (or at least the pilot can).

GU
I have no memory of this place.
 
jfr
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:04 am

As many of you might not know, MAS does it's heavy maintenance at the old KL airport at Subang.

This is exactly what an empty 744 would look like if it was on a 30-40 km ferry flight to Subang.
 
Aircellist
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:39 am

I once saw an AC 747, early version, take off from the short runway, parallel to the terminal, in YUL... For those who know the place, it took off barely in front of the middle of the terminal, and climbed like wow! I suppose it was going to YMX, almost empty, after having spent some time at the maintenance...

It was the shortest take-off run I've ever seen for a heavy jet. I would say almost as short as for a fully loaded Dash-8 !

Yes, I would have loved to be on board!...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
harry
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:08 am

ya, i saw many 747 model planes take off with those powerful climb that's if the planes with a light load
Harry
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:12 am

I remember in 1994 I took an almost new Malasya 744 from MEX to LAX there were 17 crew and 9 pax (YES 9), we rolled and rolled and I thought, what the heck we are empty why the long roll? then UPPPPPPPP, man we climbed as in a jet fighter, Ill never forget that, we went straight to FL390, man those 744 have real power...

that climb rate is perfectly posible
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:07 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 6):
Ok they aren't extended . Well can you then confirm whether or not the angle of the plane is possible without stalling at such a low altitude? I assume the airspeed wouldn't be high enough just yet to climb at such an angle.

Flaps are slightly extended for take off ( I believe it's 5 degrees) to help with the air flow over the wings or something like that.

Happy Flying !!
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
martin21
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:55 am

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

What game are you playing ?
MS Flightsim 2025.... ??  bigthumbsup 

I think the pic is for real

Martin21
At 30.000 feet, the sun always shines !
 
flyingzacko
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:40 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
I'm leaning towards a fake. Granted I am away from home right now and zooming in with MS paint but the background is so nice and clean and then there is this border around the jet. It would probably be easier to tell in Photoshop. But I'm thinking its a fake.



Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

That's exactly how you can tell you guys don't know anything about photography. Why do you guys think this picture is up on a.net? Cus it is a fake. I don't think so. This picture is just one example for how good the photographers are that contribute to this site. Show some respect guys!
And I know it has been said before, but I just have to say it again cus I was cracking up when reading this: It's DIGITAL not DIGATAL and the A is not even close to the I, even on an American keyboard. Big grin

Cheers,
Sebastian
Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
 
airliner777
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:42 am

I see all the time Polar Air's B747-400/Fs taking off out of KMIA in the morning, and those pilots can make that bird climb!  Big grin

FedEx's DC-10 and MD-11 morning flights are also included!  Wink
 
NWA742
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:01 am

Definitely not a fake, a lightly-loaded/fueled 744 could very easily climb that steep and that fast. Actually it could go up quite a bit steeper for awhile.

I've got a buddy who flies Southern Air Cargo 742s, and he's always been overwhelmed by a light 747's climb performance. Sometimes they fly short repositioning flights with no cargo, he says that they always have to power down from climb thrust (not full power), even while keeping the VSI pegged at over 6000fpm, in order to obey the FAA 250 knot rule under 10000ft.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
abirda
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:03 am

Quoting FlyingZacko (Reply 45):
That's exactly how you can tell you guys don't know anything about photography.

Exactly, FlyingZacko. What is the deal with people making baseless statements about the quality or authenticity of the photographs on this site with no experience or skill to back those statements up? There are many amazing photographers who contribute here, and they don't need to turn to photoshop magic to get astounding results. I would never have doubted the integrity of the photographer to begin with, but to appease the skeptics on this forum, I analyzed the photo anyway. People who are still doubting its authenticity, or who somehow have themselves it came out of some crappy flight simulator should re-read reply #15 or any of the other knowledgeable replies that have been provided.

Quoting Indy (Reply 1):
I'm leaning towards a fake. Granted I am away from home right now and zooming in with MS paint but the background is so nice and clean and then there is this border around the jet. It would probably be easier to tell in Photoshop. But I'm thinking its a fake.

I'm curious. MS paint is not the powerhouse that photoshop is, but it doesn't display the raw pixels in an image any differently than photoshop (excluding and photoshop color profiling, etc.) It's not that you need to open it in photoshop. What is needed is the actual knowledge of what to look for when spotting a doctored photo, none of the signs of which are present here.
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:21 am

You guys got me so intrigued that I went to bed this morning thinking of how it could be fake - they almost always are. I even played with it in Paint to see if it could be placed even closer to the ground. So, it's nice to hear from people who know what they're talking about that the photo is real, as is the performance of the 747.
 
SOU146
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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:46 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:44 am

Has anyone flown LGK - KUL on a MAS B744..? I'm not sure what passenger/cargo loads are like on this route but for the very short distance I imagine the take off could be quite spectacular..?
 
jeffry747
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting Aggieflyboi04 (Reply 10):
Its a pic from a flight simulator, the back ground is digatal.

Definitely NOT! If you wanna see what Flightsim screenshots look like then go into the Aviation Hobby forum and check out the Flightsim screenshot threads. As cool as screenshots can be they don't look anywhere near as real as the photo in question. And I, like many others here, have also witnessed a 747 with a light load climb like nobody's business.


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Photo © Andreas Muhl


The first pic is Malaysia's Hibiscus in real life. Second pic is a Flightsim screenshot. You compare.
C'mon Big B, FLY!
 
UALDUDE
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:05 am

Not a fake! FltSim photo? Please! Flaps are in takeoff position, usually flaps 20 for takeoff. If a 747-400 is very light or empty they rotate and climb just like this! I rode jumpseat on a ferry flight not too long ago on a UA 744 and were off the ground in about 4000 feet of runway and climbing just like this. You can bring it right to about a 18 degree deck angle when it is light. Amazing airplane!
 
flyingzacko
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RE: Malaysia Airlines Boeing 747 Over Climbing?

Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:15 am

Quoting Jeffry747 (Reply 52):
Definitely NOT! If you wanna see what Flightsim screenshots look like then go into the Aviation Hobby forum and check out the Flightsim screenshot threads

Now which one is real and which one is the DIGATAL one here? I'm so confused! Big grin

Cheers,
Sebastian
Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX