MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:02 am

North American Airlines, the only US airline flying to Africa, has applied today to start service to Lagos, Nigeria.

NAA plans 4x weekly service to Lagos, all flights routed via Accra, to begin on or around 1 December 2005.

Their Accra service has been a tremendous success, and extending it to Lagos will allow them to boost frequency and add traffic.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.c...m?documentid=341439&docketid=22072

[Edited 2005-08-09 18:03:28]
a.
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:50 am

so that means accra will get 5 weekly flights in total? (4 contimuing to LOS)?
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:51 am

Quoting SOUPS (Reply 1):
so that means accra will get 5 weekly flights in total? (4 contimuing to LOS)?

No. Four weekly JFK-ACC-LOS-ACC-JFK flights. The schedule will be entirely redone, since now they can have crew layover in Accra. With a once weekly flight, they have the plane sit in Accra for a long time for crew rest.
a.
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:56 am

i tske it the crew will be staying at LOS then...
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:01 am

I thought that there was some type of political/administrative problem with US carriers serving Lagos - something that has to do with Virgin Nigeria and its ownership. Didnt the Nigerian government say something like if Virgin Nigeria cannot serve the US (since the US claimed that is was not really a Nigerian carrier but a British carrier instead) then US carriers would not be granted access to Nigerian airports? I think that it was something like that, and the issue came up with CO's aborted plans to fly EWR-LOS.

Any clarification?
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:05 am

It will be interesting to see if NAA can pull off LOS service. CO made a big deal of not proceeding based on crew safety and corruption issues.

Quoting Soups (Reply 3):
i tske it the crew will be staying at LOS then...

Let's hope not, for the crew safety.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 3):
i tske it the crew will be staying at LOS then...

No. They aren't that stupid. They will rest in Accra.
a.
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:12 am

i flew into LOS few days ago and yes it is corrupt. i mean the security personel asked me to pay $200 or they will take me into custody, for taking picture of a plane (trip report coming up soon)
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
Quoting Soups (Reply 3):
i tske it the crew will be staying at LOS then...

No. They aren't that stupid. They will rest in Accra.

Is Lagos such a dangerous place that nearly all airlines let their crews stay in Accra?

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 8):
Is Lagos such a dangerous place that nearly all airlines let their crews stay in Accra?

Yes, it unfortunately is. IIRC, though, British Airways does let crew rest in Abuja.
a.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 7):
i flew into LOS few days ago and yes it is corrupt. i mean the security personel asked me to pay $200 or they will take me into custody, for taking picture of a plane (trip report coming up soon)

How did you respond?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:23 am

Lagos, sheesh, that place is a nightmare, when our crews went into Lagos, they used to carry a suitcase full of cash to pay for bills. Once on the ground, we had armed guards escort the crew from the plane to the hotel as the crew had about 20k in cash.....

One pilot that I knew when ordering his food when asked, would ask them to burn his food, to make sure there was no bacteria....
NO URLS in signature
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:44 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
Quoting Soups (Reply 7):
i flew into LOS few days ago and yes it is corrupt. i mean the security personel asked me to pay $200 or they will take me into custody, for taking picture of a plane (trip report coming up soon)

How did you respond?

A friend of my dad use to be the station manager for GH at LOS (Not sure what he works now), my dad contacted him and he called the airport security.
i was asked stupid questions like ''are you a suicide bomber''?? If i was one would i even say yes?
i lived most of my life in Africa so i know how those tricks work
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
B744F
Posts: 2927
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:52 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
the only US airline flying to Africa

World flies to Africa
 
blrBird
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:39 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:11 am

This is really good! You can fly LOS to US direct rather than LOS-EU-US the way it is now.
from star dust....
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:19 am

Yes, they fly 3x week IAH/LAD. After World's first mistake at flying to LOS, you would think they had learned a lesson. Guess not. Don't forget both NAA and World are under World Air Holdings, Inc. Soups, will the Ghanain government now allow a through flight from ACC to LOS vv? At one time I know they would not approve this routing.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:40 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
the only US airline flying to Africa

World flies to Africa

True, as a scheduled charter operation with Angola's Sonair. I should have been more clear, I meant scheduled service.
a.
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:04 am

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 15):
Yes, they fly 3x week IAH/LAD. After World's first mistake at flying to LOS, you would think they had learned a lesson. Guess not. Don't forget both NAA and World are under World Air Holdings, Inc. Soups, will the Ghanain government now allow a through flight from ACC to LOS vv? At one time I know they would not approve this routing.

Rgds,
Ed

well LH, MS,EK,ME,AZ and ET currently flies ACC-LOS and/or LOS-ACC so i dont see whay it should be a problem (just my though)

Any updares on CO service to ACC?
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:21 am

Haven't heard any more news on CO to ACC. They might just want to wait and see how NAA does bfore committing anything to it. I'm will be very surprised if the Nigerian government approves anything that has to do with World. There are still oustanding law suits both over there and here in the states dealing with World's first failed attempt at flying there. Thanks for the clarification.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
MYT332
Posts: 7283
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:31 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 12):
i was asked stupid questions like ''are you a suicide bomber''?? If i was one would i even say yes?

stupid is as stupid does...
One Life, Live it.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:54 am

As Clipper002 mentioned, you would think World Air Holdings would have learned their lesson after the Ritetime Aviation and Travel fiasco. They were made to look like fools even though it was Ritetime's fault for what happened. What ever happened in regards to the class action suit filed against World by folks that got stranded by the collapse of the WO/Ritetime deal?
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 12):
A friend of my dad use to be the station manager for GH at LOS (Not sure what he works now), my dad contacted him and he called the airport security.
i was asked stupid questions like ''are you a suicide bomber''?? If i was one would i even say yes?
i lived most of my life in Africa so i know how those tricks work

Yikes. It still must have been stressful. I wonder if these corrupt Nigerians ever actually arrest anyone for nonpayment of bribes?
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:59 am

The stories from Lagos are unbelievable, damn, sounds not like a nice place to travel to.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 21):
Yikes. It still must have been stressful. I wonder if these corrupt Nigerians ever actually arrest anyone for nonpayment of bribes?

Yes, I am wondering about the same but I can imagine that they do without hesitation after I read the aforemantioned posts.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 20):
you would think World Air Holdings would have learned their lesson after the Ritetime Aviation and Travel fiasco.

Yeah, I guess. But from a scheduling perspective, this keeps the aircraft from sitting uselessly on the ground in Ghana. And, if I recall, the issue wasn't that there weren't pax for Ritetime's service on WOA -- the ATL segment at least. The problem was that Ritetime was a half-assed, possibly crooked operation that took money from pax, didn't follow the rules, and didn't pay the charter carrier. NAA has its own reservations system, and operates a *scheduled* product, which operates under different rules. Assuming that they can actually *collect* the money that the local NAA ticket-seller in Nigeria takes in, NAA will have a lot more control over revenues from this service. Frankly, I'd like to see the ACC service go on for a while longer to ensure that NAA has down the basics of ticketing and collecting fares for a scheduled international service to Africa. But if they think they've got it...what can I say?

As to whether doing this is worth the hassle and risks -- that's another question entirely. I guess WOA is so used to flying to hell and back that a merely-a-little-less-developed place like Nigeria ain't no big deal. Still...isn't anybody working on connecting FL or WN or whomever at, say, BWI, with EasyJet or Germanwings or someone else on the other side of the Pond? Wouldn't that be a less-bizarre, potentially-equally-remunerative project?

Just wondrin'...

Best,

Bill
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:25 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:49 pm

Here we go, we were due for yet another Lagos-corruption thread; it had already been some 10 days!

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 11):
Lagos, sheesh, that place is a nightmare, when our crews went into Lagos, they used to carry a suitcase full of cash to pay for bills. Once on the ground, we had armed guards escort the crew from the plane to the hotel as the crew had about 20k in cash.....

One pilot that I knew when ordering his food when asked, would ask them to burn his food, to make sure there was no bacteria....

Other than the exaggeration, I would have told the pilot you knew not to ever go to Africa for his degrading ways. It's like me asking in North America to only be served apples or oranges that have not been injected with some substance or grown through some artificial way. Geez
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:07 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:05 pm

Quoting ETStar (Reply 24):
Here we go, we were due for yet another Lagos-corruption thread; it had already been some 10 days!

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 11):
Lagos, sheesh, that place is a nightmare, when our crews went into Lagos, they used to carry a suitcase full of cash to pay for bills. Once on the ground, we had armed guards escort the crew from the plane to the hotel as the crew had about 20k in cash.....

One pilot that I knew when ordering his food when asked, would ask them to burn his food, to make sure there was no bacteria....

Other than the exaggeration, I would have told the pilot you knew not to ever go to Africa for his degrading ways. It's like me asking in North America to only be served apples or oranges that have not been injected with some substance or grown through some artificial way. Geez

No exaggeration, I knew the loadmasters & flight mechanics that went there, and was told how it was to fly there. As to the pilots, a high number of our pilots that went there, got sick.

Since, you seem to have some info of Lagos, please share them with us, I would be interested to see if these pilots have not been honest with me....
NO URLS in signature
 
EurostarVA
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 12:24 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:31 pm

Lagos, yet again serving as punching bag for users on this forum, some of whom haven't been to Lagos in the past 15 years. Instead of complaining and posting bad reviews, I would suggest to the victims exercising common sense.

Any of you been to Galiao Airport (Rio de Janeiro) lately?

Try entering the arrivals hall, from baggage collection area, GOOD LUCK. Touts and con artists ready to attack you from everywhere. This has disappeared in Lagos!!!!!
If there is a will, there is a way
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:12 pm

Bill,
I don't share the same opinion as you with regards to NAA's "scheduled service."
They've already been forced to cancel their OAK/Hawaii runs and there's no way to really measure how lucrative their other scheduled services are. As a privatley held carrier before World bought them, they could show any numbers that they cared to. I find it very, very hard to believe that they were profitable for the past 12 years. CO was in far better shape to start services to LOS than NAA or WOA ever will be, and they even pulled the plug when they finallly smelled the roses. Dealing with ACC is not at all like dealing with LOS.

Just my 2 cents.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
User avatar
drerx7
Posts: 4223
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:21 pm

Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 27):
CO was in far better shape to start services to LOS than NAA or WOA ever will be, and they even pulled the plug when they finallly smelled the roses.

They pulled the services because the Nigerian government prevented them from doing so because the US did not want Virgin Nigeria to commence service to the states IIRC. The point is the service was cancelled due to the argument between the US and Nigerian governments--not because 'they smelled the roses'. This is why Continental then applied for the EWR-IAH-EZE route with the 762--as that was the aircraft to be allocated to the IAH-EWR-LOS service.
Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:35 am

We stay in LOS on a regular basis. Although we pretty much keep to the hotel. As much as I would like to see the area, the truth is it's not safe to go outside of the hotel complex. The food isn't that bad and the beer is good. Haven't had any bad experiences with the food, though we do bring bottled water to drink from the aircraft. My biggest beef is that everything is very expensive. I bring cash because of the high incidence credit card fraud. I don't feel like I am in danger on the ride to and from the hotel because there is a pretty large police presence, and besides, most people near the streets are too preoccupied with not being run over by a taxi or scooter!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:26 am

There has been talk of a "link" with EasyJet and AirTran.. and there is a dormant London (LGW) route from BWI. However start-up MaxJet seems
to be getting ready to fly from BWI to STN. We'll see.

My personal experience in Abuja was less than enjoyable.

World Airways learned some extremely valuable lessons from their LOS
flying. Hopefully that knowledge has been passed to NAA!
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:35 am

Ed, I'm not sure that we disagree that much. There is no question that NAA was losing money on *all* their scheduled service. World said explicitly that none of the scheduled NAA service ever made money, and this was before the restatement of NAA earnings due to auditing.

I also think that to take on the challenge of flying to LOS, one had better expect to make some serious Drachma. But they seem hell bent on doing it, so I have to assume that they see a market there, having already been there and dealt with it.

As to the scheduled product, all I was trying to say is that offering scheduled service gives NAA direct control over ticket sales and money collection, which was not the case with RiteTime. Or am I missing something (which I may well be)?

These guys would have to be total morons to go BACK to a "challenging" place in Africa to service unless they thought that they could make some real money at it if they did it themselves. But maybe they are. We shall see.

All the best,

Bill
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24597
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 28):
This is why Continental then applied for the EWR-IAH-EZE route with the 762--as that was the aircraft to be allocated to the IAH-EWR-LOS service.

Lagos would require one aircraft, Buenos Aires requires two. I think that CO would have applied for EZE regardless. It is a limited entry market they have always wanted in on.
a.
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:31 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 31):
There is no question that NAA was losing money on *all* their scheduled service.

I had thought that GEO was profitable for them.

In regards to LOS, didn't the Nigerian gov't say they would not approve any US carrier to serve the country, when they denied CO's application? Something of a spat with Virgin Nigeria, iirc, as discussed in reply #5.

If World still has outstanding lawsuits, and NAA is a subsidiary of World, wouldn't this put them at risk for getting served with World's lawsuits?

I think it's good they're trying this, but I am skeptical to see how their Business Class does. We approached NAA when they started ACC. There are only 12 seats in Business, more like domestic First Class, and they didn't do corporate contracts - something energy companies are going to want. But I am sure, overall, they'd have no problem filling Y.
 
tsnamm
Posts: 531
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 3:28 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:22 pm

the GEO flights are still operating...it seems that the OAK/Hawaii flts were the ones losing money...BTW how did they do on there Dominican service???
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:07 am

NO...according to the conference call after the NAA acquisition, they stated that NONE of the sked service routes had EVER made a profit. Period.

Now, there's a difference between not making a profit and losing prodigious amounts of money. They have characterized the guyana and ghana routes as "performing well" recently. That doesn't mean that they are making money, but it appears that they're satisfied that the business is on-target in whatever plan they have.
 
Clipper002
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:24 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:05 am

Bill,
My opinion of World Air Holdings is far more skeptical than most. I just left there 3 months ago and was lucky enough to get out on my own terms. If you go back to the Yahoo chat room, you'll see quite a few other skeptics coming foward as well, Linda being the most pronounced. She happens to be dead on with her perceptions of senior management at this airline. Believe me, if it weren't for Iraq, there would be no World Air Holdings or World Airways. There are a bunch of very dedicated professionals both in the field and at HQ that actually are the ones holding this whole thing together, not senior mangement. No, I don't think senior management has the wherewithall to be able to make a sound business decision on new service to LOS. I would also be fairly concerned that the Nigerian government still wants nothing to do with World, be it Air Holdings or Airways.

Rgds,
Ed
Ed
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:41 am

Thanks Ed: You're spot on. No one cares what happens to us out in the field.
You're also correct that Iraq is what saved WOA, and were it not for that, WOA would probably be DOA by now.

When the "Swiss Skies" program was in the works (IAD-GVA-KBL), it was
discussed that revenue accounting from ticket sales would be watched
more carefully by WOA. I certainly hope that is the case with NAA. Sales
is now responsible for both (except for your boy John, who is still WOA "property")

I hope they get it soon................  Sad
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: North American Plans Service To Lagos

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:37 pm

Ed: You've always been fair and balanced in your comments. If you think that they're a bunch of dorks that don't have an actual plan up their sleeves, then I'm in no position to argue. Frankly, they come across as very amateurish on the conference calls, particularly the financial guy. But that's just my impression.

Their Relative Dorkiness Quotient shall be determined when the 10Q comes out on Wednesday. If it ain't pretty, watch the day-trader money abandon the stock in droves.

I thought the same thing as you about the Nigerian Gov't and WOA, because it always seemed to me that the Gov't blamed World for the problems even though RiteTime were the incompetents or crooks, whatever you think they were. So I just assumed that they had some indication that this application would be approved before going off after it. But, if the dufus factor is as high as you say, we'll soon be listening to them explain how they were shocked, shocked! that the app was denied. Sounds like a good issue for CeeMore to go after, now that his bonds actually got redeemed or converted or whatever.

I stand corrected.

Best,

Bill