ACAfan
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Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:32 am

I thaught KIX was a white elephant. Why are they expanding it?


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D950
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:36 am

Having been through it, I would call it a beautifully efficient white elephant.
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Doona
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:51 am

What is a white elephant?

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Mats
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deltaffindfw
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:52 am

Isn't it the only airport in the world that is expanding and sinking at the same time..  Wink
 
hz747300
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:56 am

It is sinking. Apparently, the seabed that the island was built over is extremely soft--which is why I thought it was odd they are expanding. Looks cool though!
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Ari
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:58 am

It's a prety big expansion. It's basiclly doubles it in size dusn't it?!What are they going to use all that space for??Is it all for new gate spaces?!

ari

[Edited 2005-08-09 23:07:19]
 
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N328KF
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:58 am

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Doona
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:00 am

Okay, thanx a bunch, N328KF!

Cheers
Mats
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Silver1SWA
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:07 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 4):
It is sinking. Apparently, the seabed that the island was built over is extremely soft--which is why I thought it was odd they are expanding. Looks cool though!

I saw a special about this airport on "MegaStructures" last week and this topic was mentioned. I would probably have a clearer answer if it wasn't for the fact that it was like 3AM and I was half asleep, but I want to say it's not so much an expansion as it is a replacement. Due to the fact it is sinking, I believe there is a somewhat short life expectancy for the old runway/terminal.
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brokenrecord
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:29 am

My understanding is that it is a new runway.
 
NYC777
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:32 am

Are they also going to build an extension to the terminal. The land area for the second runway looks large enough to accomdodate a terminal expansion project.
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brokenrecord
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:35 am

I would think that is a possibility.
 
NZAA
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:11 am

On "megastructures" it was mentioned that the new runway was vital. With only 1 runway there what would happen if an accident were to occur, apart from diverting the flights it is possible for them to keep the airport operational.

Also they beleive that the land will not sink any more.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 6):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant

hahahahahaha,
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BH346
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:15 am

The second island will have a parallel second runway built on it. I believe it will be longer than the first, 4000m IIRC.

This website has info on the 2nd and proposed 3rd phase projects: http://www.kald.co.jp/eindexframe.html

The terminal extension doesn't seem very clear anymore. I don't think there really is a need for it since the current facilities aren't near capicity. The Renzo Piano designed terminal is beautiful and functional.

Sinking rate seems to have reduced dramatically over the last few years and seems to be stabilizing. Once the second island is finished, KIX is supposed to start on a project to reinforce the first island by building walls to keep water out of the runway and from flooding the terminal.
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ikramerica
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:55 am

Yes, the situation is not nearly as dire as it sounds.

1. You can always add more earth on top of the original island, as it is manmade. That would mean the only real problem is you can't lift the foundations of the original terminals. The building can be lifted, but the foundation will continue to sink.

2. With the second runway, built on a higher island, it allows for the eventually closing and regrading of the first island, increasing that islands height above sea level as well. This is far off, but if it were to ever need to happen, a second runway allows that (again, assuming they do it quickly).

3. If over time, the building keeps sinking, there are many, many years to build a new terminal structure next to it, connecting the first and second islands. They left plenty of room. That would be 20 years off, and by that time, building a whole new terminal wouldn't be the end of the world anyway. Then, when the original is vacated, it could be taken down, the earth raised up (the only spot at that point that would be too low) and a new terminal built.

My college advisor was part of the engineering team preventing the leaning tower of pisa from toppling. They now have it at a point where it is slightly righting itself over time. Miracles can be done when you have lots of time to perform them.
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ktachiya
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:18 am

I think the new terminal building was debated. But for now, they were unable to get the construction fees to build it (maybe in the future). Thus, they are only going to have one rwy an a taxiway connecting it to the terminal. It's going to be about a 1km taxi from the threshold of the new rwy to the terminal. Well, I guess some areas of NRT are worse.
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centrair
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:44 am

I have been amazed by the poor management of KIX. It has been open for 10 years and still has yet to make a profit. It commercial space is limited and IMO not the best.

Solution...build another runway and terminal? It has high landing fees and poor domestic connections. At sometimes during the day half of its gates will be completely empty. What would be the use of a 2nd terminal...it would be empty.

Not getting the terminal I think was okay. I think they should make black before spending more money.

When it comes to offshore airports...give me HKG or NGO anyday. Both of them are 10 times better than KIX in design, facility, and things to do while waiting. HKG & NGO are like entertainment districts with plans arriving. KIX is just a big building for Japanese group tours to leave from.

NGO is already ahead of schedule for being profitable in 5 years. If they are at the point of needing more space they will go to their phase two (2nd runway and terminal expansion).
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Carpethead
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:48 am

Kansai Airport is no white elephant. Sure it cost a ton to build and maintain, but itfs definitely needed. Itami Airport sure canft handle all the traffic. The terminal isnft near to full capacity except between 0830 to 1100. Does it need a second runway: No. With Kobe Airport opening up next year and Osaka Itami still around, the second runway is definitely not needed.
The area to the far right of the picture is where the 4,000m runway will be located and slated to open in 2007. The terminal facility will be built between the existing island and the new runway, but that schedule is not yet determined. It will probably be next decade before construction starts on that portion. Besides, itfs probably a good idea that the reclaimed land sink first before the building structure is put up.

Next, I believe KIX is finally posting operational profits. However, they still have that mountain of debt to deal with.

While most places in the world have a difficult time (some places thatfs an understatement) building any airport facility, the Osaka/Kansai region by 2007 will have too much runway capacity. Isnft it better to have more capacity than what we always do here on A.net arguing over slots/building runways? Then, we can argue over which new airline/routes can serve the Kansai-region.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 17):

I don't agree on the runway. EVERY major international airport needs a second runway to be considered a viable commitment because, as stated, an accident could shut the airport down for a long time with only one runway.

But as you clearly show, KIX has plenty of time for the rest. No need to rush anything. Grow slowly and wisely, but they should focus on more retail. Maybe they are afraid the more they cram into the terminal, the faster it will sink.  Wink
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ramerinianair
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:33 am

They are spending billions on preparing for the A380. LOLOLOL
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Aaron747
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:42 pm

Kudos to comments about how much NGO simply ROCKS...I'm so fortunate to be living so close to it...haha.

Now, the answer to the thread question - you'd better ask all politicians in this country who are in business with construction bigwig crooks!
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boeingfan71
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:50 pm

i saw megastructures too and it says that the first floors have walls that can move up and down due to have to being raised constantly and frequently.
 
Neverest
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:35 pm

Has any thought been given to the rising of the sea level from global warming?
 
HT
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:05 pm

When talking about KIX we must not forget that this airport caters mainly for international traffic, while downtown ITM mainly caters for domestic traffic (even though both airports are designated as "Class 1" by Japan´s Ministry of Land, Infrastructre and Transport).
That means that ITM "takes away" a good portion of pax (= revenue) from KIX. And unless either KIX can generate much more additional traffic or some traffic is transferred from ITM to KIX, the situation with the poor revenue at KIX will continue.

The situation in Nagoya is completely different as the new Centrair effectively has replaced Komaki !

EDIT: see http://www.mlit.go.jp/english/civil_aviation/kuko03.html for info about Japans Airports.

-HT

[Edited 2005-08-10 08:09:14]
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N79969
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:46 pm

KIX is expanding for the same reason that miles and miles of unneeded roads and tunnels are built all over Japan every year. The airport is underutilized as it exists and the 2nd runway will only saddle KIX with more costs without any real prospect for generating enough revenue to pay it off.

However you cut it, KIX is an economic disaster. It expensive and inconvenient for passengers and airlines. While Osaka may have needed another airport, a better, less costly solution could have been found.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:15 pm

How is it inconvenient for passengers?!

I got the train directly from Osaka downtown, and was there in 45 minutes. Once at the airport, I found it to be super efficient, quick and easy, the only delay being in the security line.

Have you ever been there before?! Share with me your inconvenience story.

Trent.
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HT
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:06 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 25):
How is it inconvenient for passengers?!

I got the train directly from Osaka downtown, and was there in 45 minutes.

The "inconvenient" may refer to a comparison to travel to ITM from downtown ... ?
-HT
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ikramerica
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:54 pm

Quoting Neverest (Reply 22):
Has any thought been given to the rising of the sea level from global warming?

No, because it's so far been a non-issue, rising far, far less than the dire predictions used to extort trillions.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
N79969
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:18 pm

I have been through KIX. That it looks nice and the train is fast really has no bearing on the economics of the project. Part of the problem is the relative distance compared to Itami airport.

The other, bigger problem are the very steep user fees that stem from the enormous construction costs. There is a 2,000 (or 2500) yen per international passenger fee. There is a separate toll just to cross the bridge to the airport for those who drive. Apparently insufficient thought was given to the relationship between price and quantity demanded. This is not to mention the world's second highest landing charges for airline users.

[Edited 2005-08-10 16:20:59]
 
Okie
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:48 am

Possibly KIX is sinking faster than anticipated due to debt load?

I agree that to be considered a major player in international traffic a second runway will be needed.
A second runway would have to be built before the first one can be raised as construction to raise the runway would take several months or longer requiring the airport to be shut down.

It seems from my perspective that with the high costs involved with the construction and operation of the airport that the airport was built many years ahead of the curve on passenger growth and user fees. At this time there are other more economical and convenient alternatives for airlines and passengers.

Okie
 
UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:04 am

The airport is not sinking. It has settled faster than expected but it also has tapered off faster than expected. The second runway is simple double your flts. spells more passenger traffic and cargo.
No one would come anywhere near financing this project if it was thought to be a "White Elephant". It is more of a Gray Elephant. Finally you have a airport admin. that acts instead of reacts, upon completion the timing could not be better.  airplane 
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kaitak
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:31 am

I don't care how expensive it is or how far it's sinking (unless I'll need to bring flippers and a swimming cap to check in), the Japanese know how to build decent airports. My question: will the new extension have an observation area (one towards the other end of the runway would be lovely!)

Good luck to it. It's serving a huge and important area, so I think the future is looking up for it.
 
irelayer
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:10 am

I can't believe some of you people. You can sit there saying that this beautiful, amazing structure is unneccesary, or that it shouldn't be expanded? Lots of things are unnecesary. Massive skyscrapers are unnecesary, expensive, and difficult to maintain. But we build them anyway. You know why? Because we want to, because it is challenging to do so, and because it is a source of pride for the city it is built in and by extension, the human race. If we can't marvel at the cutting edge of modern technologies, what is the point of having them? Plus everyone is always complaining about NIMBYS and how difficult it is to build an airport or improve it, or how you would love to have this or that at your airport. I would absolutely love to fly into KIX. I mean...it is literally a floating airport! Isn't that just the coolest thing. Just think about that.

-IR
 
malaysia
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:15 am

They are going to add rail tracks under the terminal, so when the original runway sinks, the terminal slides to the new runway and land. right?
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buckfifty
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:23 am

There is the possibility that Itami may close within the next 20 years, when Kansai development is at a mature stage, with Kobe adding capacity to the Kansai area.

There really isn't a move to do so now, because the future of Kansai, while seemingly stable, is not a completely secure prospect. The hope is for the island to sink at a rate which is predictable within a set timescale.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Osaka Kansai. Why Is It Expanding?

Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:38 am

Because the other side is sinking.

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